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#686674 - 08/29/01 03:42 PM My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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When I first started to play online I noticed a bunch of different types of games. There was one "Get the Baron" server with a glorified game of "tag" going on. There were a few "Individual Melee" servers where all pilots shared a single drome and tried to best each other (though often it ended up in a furball 50 feet over the end of the runway.) There were a few "Team Melee" servers where it was Allies vs Huns in straight aerial combat.

But the bulk of the servers were "Team Target" where you could actually WIN THE GAME by bombing the other team off the map. I noticed however that while the objective was clearly to bomb and defend from bombers, almost all the players were meleeing. As I was new to the game and stunk at flying (hence the callsign "Pepe LePeu") I figured I would learn to bomb.

Holy smoke is it ever difficult! I spent a lot of time missing targets, blowing my wings off, crashing, getting shot to bits by AA, and generally being ineffective. So I started to read the forums for more info on bombing.

Holy smoke was there ever a lot of conficting information! Firstly, I discovered not everyone was telling the whole truth: many squads have developed their own bombing techniques and guard them jealously so as to maintain an edge in tournament play.

Secondly, I found some people were misinformed. Results that they reported often worked in MMP Solo mode at veteran level but not MMP Ace difficulty level.

And third, I discovered that there was very little empirical testing done to back up any of the claims people were making. Some were just anecdotes and some were just repeated from other sources.

I can't tell you RAF bombing secrets but I can at least remove some misconceptions so you can learn for yourself (or you can join the RAF and learn EVERYTHING...)

MYTH 1: "Every target has a sweet spot." Nope. Hitting things ACCURATELY destroys them faster and with fewer bombs but there is no secret "instant kill" to be had. Anyone who reports this type of result probably tested it in MMP Solo mode at Veteran difficulty level. It does not hold true at Ace difficulty.

MYTH 2: "Don't shoot the ambulance!" Some maintain that accidentally hitting the ambulance or other "off limits" parts of a target will cause it to go hard and be impossible to detroy. While almost any target can "go hard" it ain't the ambulance that does it. I have tested this empirically and isolated the variables (an RAF secret) that cause targets to go hard. I bombed over thirty dromes on a private MMP server to get this info in case you are wondering.

MYTH 3: "But I read it on the squad web site!" I have reviewed a large number of squad bombing manuals I found on the web and have determined that ALL of them are incomplete and most contain some incorrect information. They are a good place to start but TEST EVERYTHING YOU READ before you adopt it for your own.

MYTH 4: "Nobody will tell me anything!" Yep. But if you fly bombers alongside them you will learn a lot. Ask who is bombing and then wing up with them. Then watch what they do and ask questions.

MYTH 5: "Now I'm good at it!" If you can kill seven depots in a single ammo load or kill a small drome in a single pass then come join the RAF! If you can't then join anyway and we'll teach you how.

http://raf209.cjb.net/

Finally, the best part of bombing is getting that message "The Allied Team has won the Battle" after the last target goes down.

S! And happy bombing!



------------------
Lt. Pepe LePeu, DSO, AFC, BO
Flight Leader Charlie
209 Squadron RAF

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#686675 - 08/29/01 07:20 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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S!

Well another closely guarded secret he didnt mention is er things used to get those bombs where u want em.....so join a squad with really talented bombers(like say....RAC) if you wanna know.


I will say this to any lone wolf or newbie pilots out there. The squads that do real well in wars(and its not hard to find this out) get there by having a lot of pilots who "research" things in RB (like bombing)and share the info. But only squad members will have access to it. So here is a really good reason to join one. Of course practice and training plays a BIG part as well, so successful squads will do alot of that also.

#686676 - 08/29/01 07:47 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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LOL, I know of one Lone Wolf expert bomber, that would be the Unibomber--he is the terror of the public servers!!

#686677 - 08/29/01 08:10 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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UniBomber aka JGS4_Sparks. A very skilled bomber but, like yourself, a despicable hun nonetheless His poetry is as dangerous as his bombing.

Other bombers of note:
US185_Fruitbat
BA_Tinkerbelle
RebsCSA
J18_Raider
PJ666_Klaus
RAF_[fill in the blank]

------------------
Lt. Pepe LePeu, DSO, AFC, BO
Flight Leader Charlie
209 Squadron RAF

#686678 - 08/29/01 08:24 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by RAC Shnoze Shmon:
Well another closely guarded secret he didnt mention is er things used to get those bombs where u want em


Assuming you don't mean those fuselage thingies with the wings on them (or the ammo truck lol), I expect you are referring to the "high altitude bombsight". The BlackAdders website has a lovely treatise on this topic with pictures and everything so the secret is out. Get out your external camera view, altimeter, transparencies, waterproof markers and a frosty six pack of wobbly pops before you start. I will leave it to the indivdual to decide whether hi-alt bombing is the optimal way to drop targets.

------------------
Lt. Pepe LePeu, DSO, AFC, BO
Flight Leader Charlie
209 Squadron RAF

#686679 - 08/29/01 10:21 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  
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>>...whether hi-alt bombing is the optimal way to drop targets.>>>
Dunno, but I was low over the field, defending a 'drome against the B.A.'s in RBWL recently when they hit with a combination of high dive and low level bombing...and I must say it was certainly EXCITING to hear the whistle of the approaching bombs...I nearly wet myself...then we shot 'em all down.
Au revoir en l'air...S!
Heureux


Au revoir en l'air...S!
Hex
#686680 - 08/30/01 04:35 AM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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Ahh Bombing. Nothing is quite so much fun as the total destruction of enemy Targets.

I am a bomber some skill, not as much as those mentioned above or countless others. But if you want to get good, I mean real good at bombing. Your best bet is to join up with a squadron that likes bombing and is good at it. BA, RAF, RAC, JGS4, PJ666, US185th,ect... I know one of the reasons I joined BA was because of their bombing.
By the way what you saw us do was Dive Bombing, a skill I have yet to master but BAIsham has perfected.

S! All Bombadiers

#686681 - 08/30/01 06:02 AM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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S!

Reference to bombsight yes! High alt no.

#686682 - 08/30/01 12:53 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by RAC Shnoze Shmon:
Reference to bombsight yes! High alt no.


Lol I use MARK I eyeball and F5 view for low level bombing. Skunks have naturally good eye/hand co-ordination.

Dive bombing can be effective but keep in mind that a dive leaves you open to brutal AA fire. If you dive on a defended target (or zoom back up after a dive) then the AA has a good chance of flaming, headshooting or badly damaging you meaning you might get this target but you sure won't get another. My favourite bomb run is to sneak in low under the AA, drop the target and then leave without anyone having seen you (skunks are naturally stealthy...)

------------------
Lt. Pepe LePeu, DSO, AFC, BO
Flight Leader Charlie
209 Squadron RAF

#686683 - 08/30/01 03:49 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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The Hi-alt bombing paper was written before the onset of GW4, and was more relevant to that FM than NFM and even AFM. It's one thing to zip into a target with an N17 or D2 in NFM, another to lumber in flying an HP 0/400 or a Gotha. I don't know if it was real or perceived, but the AA and flak in that FM were quite unmerciful, making hi-alt a viable option to explore. It works with slow-moving planes like the GW bombers, but the time and skill required to be effective with it made it impractical to use most times. As for NFM, where the N17 and D2 are mostly used to bomb, it's useless - they move too fast.

But damn is it FUN!

#686684 - 08/30/01 07:15 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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Like the malodorous one, I am an afficionado of the low-altitude approach. I spend as much of my time as possible at less than 50ft. above ground level...both during the approach to the target and during the bombing run. Granted, it leaves you very vulnerable to enemy fighters because you don't have any altitude to trade for energy but on the positive side, I have found that in most cases any enemy flying above about 2000m won't spot you, even with the 'N' key unless they are directly overhead.

Bombing at low altitude dramatically improves accuracy and signficantly reduces the amount of AA you are exposed to. If I stay low enough, most of the time even the machine guns don't shoot at me.

I also bomb in F5 view using the Mark IA eyeball for target placement(improved version of the one the scented weasel uses).

#686685 - 08/30/01 07:36 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  
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>>I have found that in most cases any enemy flying above about 2000m won't spot you, even with the 'N' key unless they are directly overhead.>>

How did YOU know they were there? Just visual scanning? I know one can sometimes see a speck in the distance farther that the N key will detect.

I also like the f5 + eyeball low level approach...low enough not to "wake up" the machine guns.

Au revoir en l'air...S!
Heureux

PS---I have yet to figure out by empirical testing WHY Uni says one should take out the MG nests at a 'drome first. Care to expound?

S! Hex


Au revoir en l'air...S!
Hex
#686686 - 08/30/01 08:37 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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Just a comment regarding taking out the NME MGs first.

How many times have you stealthfully worked your way to a drome, found no one home to defend it, came in low (under the AA fire??) only to have an MG get in a Header or Flamer and take you out before you get a chance to deliver your parcel??

It happens all the time.

I will ALWAYS take out the MGs first if there are no defenders. If done correctly, one can take out ALL of the MGs without taking a single hit, and then casually, with deadly accuracy, drop your bombs. If done correctly, one person can take out the small and medium-sized dromes all by themselves--you can't do that and dodge MG fire at the same time. And heres a secret, if you get shot with a header and crash into a hangar, the drome hardens!!
Even in the whimpy N17 (yeah, I'll admit that the Allied are getting screwed when it's the N17 vs the Alby D2 as bombers, but that's a different debate) can easily take out 4 MGs and destroy the Small and Mid-sized dromes IF they take out the MGs first.

Take it from a seasoned RBWL bomber pilot, DO THE MGs FIRST!!

Frank

#686687 - 08/30/01 09:00 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by LE Heureux:
I have yet to figure out by empirical testing WHY Uni says one should take out the MG nests at a 'drome first. Care to expound?


S! Hex,

First of all Unibomber is a hun. Do you really want to take advice from a Hun? Of course not! So here is advice from a skunk (who may be flying against you in the playoffs.) Skunks are natural authorities and would never post anything misleading where his foes were concerned.

Ahem.

Some bombers will take out MG nests to prevent AA fire. That way scouts are subsequently free to cap the drome without taking AA damage and can effectively supress the drome by shooting defenders just after they take off.

This type of low alt, close-in suppression is particularly suited to the DR1 and so taking out MG nests at a drome is typically a hun tactic done in the twin gn DII. The Allied N17 bomber has only one gun and is less useful for strafing plus the Allies lack a rugged turner with high powered guns to fill the role.

As an aside it is worth noting the the PJ666 server rules state: "3. Scouts may strafe AA emplacements and machine gun nests." This is consistent with the hun use of a flight of DR1s to destroy drome gun emplacements and then effectively close cap an enemy drome. In contrast, RBWL rules specifically prohibit scouts from strafing ANY target in order to encourage the role of bombers in scoring points. (Important Note: PJ666 is an impeccably honourable team and their server rules DO NOT allow shooting planes on the runway. You MUST allow planes to take off and make one turn first.)

Another reason for taking out MG nests early is that subsequent bombing runs on the same drome can be made without damaging AA on a high approach.

Finally, the nests also contribute to destroying the drome -- take out more tents, shacks and MG nests and you need to hit fewer hangars to drop the target. However in half the time it takes to drop the nests and other stuff you could drop the whole drome.

"De gustibus nil disputandum"

Hope this clears things up. Anyone who joins the RAF will learn all this stuff including how often Unibomber/JGS4_Sparks washes his socks! (Trick question: He's a Hun so the answer is NEVER!

------------------
Lt. Pepe LePeu, DSO, AFC, BO
Flight Leader Charlie
209 Squadron RAF

#686688 - 08/30/01 09:08 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Tinman:
How many times have you stealthfully worked your way to a drome, found no one home to defend it, came in low (under the AA fire??) only to have an MG get in a Header or Flamer and take you out before you get a chance to deliver your parcel??

It happens all the time.


(Pepe buys Allied AA gunners a beer... and they stand around having a drink and admiring the singed rudder off Tinman's DII)

Lol Tinman quit the dark side and join the RAF! We'll show you how to bomb LARGE dromes in one visit with one plane and no AA problems.

You usng F5 view Frank?

------------------
Lt. Pepe LePeu, DSO, AFC, BO
Flight Leader Charlie
209 Squadron RAF

#686689 - 08/30/01 09:37 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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Bombers, schmombers...Be an ATTACK driver...best of both worlds....

Fighter pilots make movies, attack pilots make HIS-TOR-REE...

#686690 - 08/31/01 01:06 AM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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Interestingly enough, I rarely take much damage from AA artillery or MG fire IF I STAY LOW ENOUGH. The only times I take ground fire are when I accidentally lift a wing too high when turning for a second run on the target. Generally what I try to do, time permitting, is to make one very-low-level run...fly a respectable distance from the target and then make my turn to line up for a second pass.

Unless I encounter enemy scout aircraft, I generally egress from a target with minimal, if any, damage.

#686691 - 08/31/01 01:08 AM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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LOL, once you start down the dark side, you can never turn back!! NEVER!! Long live the Kaiser!!
As for views, I use the "Page Down" view (try it) when bombing. I could never learn to fly from the outside of my cockpit, so I rarely use the external views. The "page Down" view give me sort of a decent bombsight, and I've learned to use it accurately--too old to learn a new trick.

Regards,

Frank

#686692 - 08/31/01 02:57 AM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  
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Salut all! Thanx for the thoroughly enjoyable threads! Obviously taking out the MGs would make dive bombing and zoom climbing escapes feasible for the next wave of attackers!...think I'll try the page down view soon Tin!
Au revoir en l'air...S!
Heureux


Au revoir en l'air...S!
Hex
#686693 - 08/31/01 05:55 AM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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S!

Unless I get careless the only time I have trouble with MGs is attacking bridges. This is due to the tiny area between the tops of their rails and the fire cones of the AA.

95% of verticle divebombing will get you away from the target without any hits if your horizontal egress is performed properly. The AA cannot hit a verticly diving target except by luck.

I use MGs for target practice when I'm practicing my bombing. I bomb in both the F5 & F1 views so I have the option as to which might fit the situation better when the time comes that really counts. I know when I can put my eggs consistently in the center of an MG that I've got the groove down. I then take that groove and practice on the bigger targets since I use a little different system for those. I then enter the war ready to tackle anything from a large hanger on a drome to any target on a tent supply depot.

If you wanna know how I do this and what I use join RAC and I'll teach you.

#686694 - 08/31/01 12:39 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Tinman:
As for views, I use the "Page Down" view (try it) when bombing. I could never learn to fly from the outside of my cockpit, so I rarely use the external views. The "page Down" view give me sort of a decent bombsight, and I've learned to use it accurately--too old to learn a new trick.


You're THAT old Tinman? I know some people use F1/PgDn view but I find it is tougher to judge your alt this way. I like F5 external view for bombing as it shows you your relative alt over the structure you are lining up. This allows me to stay under AA and just skim over the top of the target. For things like bridges I can also see how close the wingtips are to the uprights (which you can't do in F1 view.) As Fruitbat states, the AA can light you up if you climb on a turn so I turn in F5 view so I can stay low and tight and watch how close the wingtip is to the ground. This is probably why I rarely take AA damage and don't worry about AA at all. Besides, what AA gunner wants to risk having a flaming planeload of skunk crash on his position?

One drawback of bombing in F5 is I have to switch views to strafe accurately but I have programmed my hat switch for this.

I use the "Page Down" view (try it)[/QUOTE]

LMAO! Accept advice from dastardly Hun? Nevah, sah!


------------------
Lt. Pepe LePeu, DSO, AFC, BO
Flight Leader Charlie
209 Squadron RAF

#686695 - 08/31/01 03:07 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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I use the "page down" view myself to bomb, as I seldom "leave" the cockpit except to switch to F8 mode, and that's usually while in a dogfight. That, of course is in low-level bombing... at high altitude it's F4 rotated all the way up and zoomed all the way out.

Although there aren't really any other options, one of the big drawbacks to low level bombing is hardening of targets, especially dromes. I think most people would agree that 1 or 2 bombers can drop an isolated drome fairly quickly, unless they get sloppy. Once CAP, escorts, and bombers start slinging bullets around at each other however, the chances that particular target will harden and never go down increase dramatically.

#686696 - 08/31/01 03:15 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  
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>>what AA gunner wants to risk having a flaming planeload of skunk crash on his position?>>

They probably would just don their masks until the gas attack dissipated on the westerly wind.

S!
Hex


Au revoir en l'air...S!
Hex
#686697 - 08/31/01 04:32 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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BTW, how does one go from "Junior Member" to "Member" in this forum? Is it based on number of posts?

Just curious.

#686698 - 08/31/01 06:44 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by BAWingnut:
...one of the big drawbacks to low level bombing is hardening of targets, especially dromes... Once CAP, escorts, and bombers start slinging bullets around at each other however, the chances that particular target will harden and never go down increase dramatically.


S! Wingnut,

First of all I must say I have the greatest respect for the BAs and their unparalled ability to procure every type of volatile beverage and spare aircraft part on a moments notice, often from RAF stores and apparently with the co-operation of our XO.

Next, I wish to observe that the exact reasons why targets "harden" has been the subject of much discussion, speculation, conjecture and misinformation. Some feel it is because of damage to ambulances or other similar "prohibited" portions of a target. Others feel it is due to random damage from stray bullets, or from aircraft crashing into target structures.

To date there is no consensus on the causes of target hardening and it has thus become the "Holy Grail" of RB3D bombing -- much quested after but yet undiscovered. It has even been proposed that the RB3D community join forces ("knights of the round table") to seek the one true answer together. So far they are still questing.

Ahem.

The Holy Grail currently resides in the off-line RAF library. It is for the exclusive use of RAF bomber pilots.

Sir Galahad's shield is there also ("sable, a pale argent") and smells faintly of skunk -- but only faintly.

S!

------------------
Lt. Pepe LePeu, DSO, AFC, BO
Flight Leader Charlie
209 Squadron RAF

#686699 - 09/01/01 03:10 AM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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By the way...I'm assuming you expert bomber-types know that the wings of an N17 fit very nicely between the rails on a bridge. Takes a steady hand but you can make your bombing runs between them and improve your hit ratio quite a bit.

#686700 - 09/01/01 04:05 AM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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Everyone knows targets harden when Pepe's case of Viagra gets hit.

BTW stop stealing Bob Dole's he's ganna get real mad.


Quack!!

#686701 - 09/01/01 10:52 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by RAF_Pepe LePeu:
UniBomber aka JGS4_Sparks. A very skilled bomber but, like yourself, a despicable hun nonetheless His poetry is as dangerous as his bombing.

Other bombers of note:
US185_Fruitbat
BA_Tinkerbelle
RebsCSA
J18_Raider
PJ666_Klaus
RAF_[fill in the blank]



S! LePeu
I would also like to add to your list.
" despicable huns nonetheless "
All members of Schlasta 2 JG1.

Salute
Wilhelm von Pletz
Schlasta 2
JG1

#686702 - 09/02/01 05:56 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by RAC Shnoze Shmon:

Reference to bombsight yes! High alt no.


Oh! Then you mean that gunsight with the bomb drop line? I realy have to thank Skeeter for sending it to me a while ago, back on the 5 weeks war. It helped me a lot.

Salute!
Slicer

#686703 - 09/05/01 04:18 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Fruitbat:
By the way...I'm assuming you expert bomber-types know that the wings of an N17 fit very nicely between the rails on a bridge. Takes a steady hand but you can make your bombing runs between them and improve your hit ratio quite a bit.


Cool! So you're bombing bridges LENGTHWISE! I always wondered why some people found them so easy. I gotta try this


------------------
Lt. Pepe LePeu, DSO, AFC, BO
Flight Leader Charlie
209 Squadron RAF

[This message has been edited by RAF_Pepe LePeu (edited 09-06-2001).]

#686704 - 09/06/01 05:04 AM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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S!

Well thanks alot Slicer! I was havin fun bein mysterious and hypin joinin my squad, but nooooooo you gotta go and blow the whole thing.

Party pooper!

err...sorry I mean
You sir are a booger!

#686705 - 09/06/01 02:26 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by vonPletz:
I would also like to add to your list.
" despicable huns nonetheless "
All members of Schlasta 2 JG1.


Salute von Pletz!

Absolutely despicable sir, every last one of you, no question about it. Dastardly too if I may say so, and perhaps vile even


------------------
Lt. Pepe LePeu, DSO, AFC, BO
Flight Leader Charlie
209 Squadron RAF

#686706 - 09/06/01 05:54 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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As someone who has been known to drop some lead on occasion, I can say with authority that. . .

you're all weird.

Droops

#686707 - 09/06/01 07:15 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  
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>>you're all weird.>>

I dunno 'bout the rest of you but
_I_ definitely am.

Au revoir en l'air...S!
Heureux


Au revoir en l'air...S!
Hex
#686708 - 09/06/01 07:23 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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S!

Why thankyou Droops!

It's always been a fear of mine that one day I'd up an go sane.

#686709 - 09/06/01 09:47 PM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  

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[This message has been edited by Tron (edited 09-06-2001).]

#686710 - 09/07/01 12:50 AM Re: My favourite topic -- BOMBING!  
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As the Germans say, "Vat ze hell vas dat?"

A note about bomb sights: from the F5 view I have a very, very good chance of hitting my target. And in the Black Adders the dive bomb has achieved the status of High Art, all accomplished without bomb sights.

BEx for anyone that contributed to the "best bomber list;" while I can't disagree, there are many that are either highly competent or are so and quickly raising skill level to expert.

I, of course, am a yeoman bomber - I'll get it if I get there and have a bit of time. And I have yet to unravel the mystery that is the dump.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
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