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#661222 - 12/31/00 04:58 AM Has anyone heard anything about Flashpoint?  
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Was wondering if anyone has heard anything about FlashPoint: Status Quo 1985?

This sim looked pretty cool, but I haven't heard anything about it for quite some time.

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#661223 - 12/31/00 06:36 AM Re: Has anyone heard anything about Flashpoint?  
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There was just an interview about it here within the last couple of weeks. Check the article archives.
Oh, here it is:
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/interviews/flashpoint

The Jedi Master

[This message has been edited by jedimaster (edited December 31, 2000).]


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#661224 - 12/31/00 10:51 AM Re: Has anyone heard anything about Flashpoint?  

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"sim"?

Don't hold your breath on that

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#661225 - 01/11/01 05:24 AM Re: Has anyone heard anything about Flashpoint?  
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Tactical shooter, shoot-em-up, a game, whatever...

You knew what I meant. Even though the models might be a little bit crude, it still is a revolutionary idea. Where else can you fly a Cessna and then drive an M1A1 in the same game?

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#661226 - 01/12/01 06:18 AM Re: Has anyone heard anything about Flashpoint?  
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You mean where else can you jump into a vehicle that looks like a cessna, looks like a m1a1, acts like a soldier, looks and sounds like a helicopter but is really just a shell around an arcade like model?

Nowhere.. you got me on that one.

RB

#661227 - 01/13/01 04:21 AM Re: Has anyone heard anything about Flashpoint?  
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I saw it at the store...

looked over the box. Didnt see multiplayer ANYWHERE mentioned. They even were boasting it as a flight sim engine used for a FPShooter. I guess that sums it up. It looks great, but is too lite for my tastes. Ill stick with RB6 series.

AV8R


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#661228 - 01/13/01 05:26 AM Re: Has anyone heard anything about Flashpoint?  

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Hmm you must be Hallucinating.. Operations Flashpoint has not been released yet.

It does have multi-player and looks to be well awsome.

I suggest everyone read the info at the main website for the game and then view the movies from the game in the download section. They will blow your mind.

As far as the flight models are concerned I cannot comment on the reality of them.. yes you can fly an A-10, Apache, Hind and also pilot River Patrol Boat with twin .50. The game focus is however on Infantry. The key here is that this is not Jane's USAF, its a ground war simulator. Therefore dont expect the flight models to be as exact as Falcon 4's.. but at the same time.. The developers are claiming to have "real flight models" So untill you actually play the game.. dont knock it.

Your all going to have to read the website and then watch the movies.. FOR GODS SAKE WATCH THE MOVIES.

here is the url for movies.
http://www.operation-flashpoint.net/downloads.htm


Also.. I know the developers are wanting REALISM. Several were in the military services of their country and they want to recreat things as real as possible.

All I can say is wow. No preview of any game Ive seen has looked this good. Here is the main url for the game. Its due out in about 2 months.

http://www.operation-flashpoint.net/

also .. read the Q&A section..

Im sure 90% of you will buy this game.

#661229 - 01/13/01 05:31 AM Re: Has anyone heard anything about Flashpoint?  

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Oh forgot to add something .. here is a quote from one of the team regarding the accuracy of the flight models.

"I have to say were not trying to compete with simulation games that are dedicated to one type of vehicle. They are too complicated to control and theyre going in a different direction than we do. We focus on gameplay and immersion we need very good simulation foundation to achieve this goal but we dont need to care too much about every single button or word being used in a particular vehicle.

For example, theres almost no difference between using the T-80 or the M1 Abrams in Flashpoint, for example. Were trying to give the player the right feeling of being in a tank, having two other tank crews, and working in the team. Basically, we use very similar model for all tanks or choppers sure, the top speed, weight or armor is different, but the core simulation and control method is the same.

It doesnt mean theres not a good damage or simulation model I am just trying to explain the difference between Flashpoint and purely simulation games."

I think this is totally realistic.. You CANNOT attempt to compete with Falcon 4.0 in terms of flight models when you have 6-7 vehicles to do it for!!! Its too much.

#661230 - 01/13/01 11:20 AM Re: Has anyone heard anything about Flashpoint?  

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It's really disapointing that the development team is simply making all the vehicles behave identically except for armor, firepower, and speed. There is ALWAYS more to it. If they can't take the time to make each vehicle behave like it's real-world counterpart, then in my opinion, they're not making the game complete.

I would LOVE to have a game like Flashpoint, but with everything handled correctly. From what I've seen so far, they're only concerned about the number of units, not how well they're modeled in-game. They need to concentrate more on making the vehicles all behaving differently, if just to loose that feeling of it being just another 'generic' vehicle with different values.

Lesse, what else.. Perfectly straight flying anti-tank rockets? Right.. Betcha tank gunnery will be a joke with the limited visibility (I never saw a visible range over 1KM in ANY of the videos, and usually only a third to half that.. Point blank to a T72, much less an M1A2-SEP :P ). They also note that weather effects like wind will have NO EFFECT on ballistics or flying.. And from the sounds of it, helicoptors don't have a collective so much as an increase/decrease altitude button :P And it looks like they can't even fly sideways. It's a car/tank with the option to increase or decrease altitude.. And to top it off, the video looks as if the helicoptors have NO HUD, just a mouse cursor that you point and click on enemy units (Bets that there's no LOAL/LOBL launch choice?). Wonder if you even stall in the A10 :P

From what I've seen, I doubt they'll even have such 'advanced' features as indexing rounds in your tank, retreating-blade stalls in your chopper, or dozens of other things like that. Seems like they're too concerned getting just a 'few more vehicles' to do the ones they have right..

*sigh* Okay, okay, enough.. Carry on

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"Drive defensively -- buy a tank."

#661231 - 01/13/01 02:56 PM Re: Has anyone heard anything about Flashpoint?  

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You may be righta, it may be too lite for for those of us wanting a real wargame. I guess there is always Combat Mission I still think alot of people will buy it if not for the eyecandy.

#661232 - 01/13/01 03:22 PM Re: Has anyone heard anything about Flashpoint?  
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AV8R, seems you confused thr titles, since the game you described is Project IGI, not Flashpoint. Project IGI is a fun game but realism-wise it falls short from R6/RS. Hidden & Dangerous IS THE CLOSEST i CAN THINK OF. The enemy AI seems on par with R6/RS series. Due to some lengthy missions and no ingame save feature the atmosphere tends to get pretty suspenseful. If you want a single player experience that is more realistic than S.o.F I can recommend this one, but a SWAT3 it is not.

Cheers,
Orangutan

#661233 - 01/14/01 10:31 AM Re: Has anyone heard anything about Flashpoint?  
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Orang...

Your absolutely correct. Brain fart. Happens when you get on to internet at 1am+ and try to be lucid.

Thanks for the correction, and forgive my bad.

AV8R

[This message has been edited by AV8R (edited January 14, 2001).]


AV8R
#661234 - 01/19/01 05:54 AM Re: Has anyone heard anything about Flashpoint?  
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Phoenix, this is going to be a GAME.

Not a SIM.

We're just too demanding....



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POLITICS, WAR, ECONOMY, CONTROVERSY! and other heated discussions and debates in the PWEC sub-forum at the bottom of this forum main page. See you there!
#661235 - 01/19/01 11:13 AM Re: Has anyone heard anything about Flashpoint?  

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Quote:

We're just too demanding....
[/B]


Well, if being "too demanding" is asking for a game that is based around the concept of being a realistic portrayal of modern warfare actually making an ATTEMPT at it... Then I guess I'm just too demanding.

Personally, I'd rather have a good, all-around accurate game than something that treats military vehicles with the same accuracy (And controll) of many arcade games.

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"Drive defensively -- buy a tank."

#661236 - 01/20/01 07:34 AM Re: Has anyone heard anything about Flashpoint?  
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Ever code a game? Ever do any real programming?

Do you know how hard it is to code a decent physics engine? Now you want all your 'advanced' features. You want them all to have different effects on different weapons systems. Let me guess: you'd also complain if it was released a day late.

If you ever want to have this game see the light of day you have to realize that compromises are needed. To code what you want is simply impossible from a business standpoint. You'd need 10 programmers doing nothing but physics for like two years. Then you'd still complain that it wasn't realistic enough, and not buy it. The game developers would lose hundreds of thousands of dollars. What you want doesn't make sense.


The word "Martyr" is just a fancy name for "crappy fighter".
#661237 - 01/20/01 11:15 AM Re: Has anyone heard anything about Flashpoint?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Morrison:
Ever code a game? Ever do any real programming?


Yes, and yes. Have you?

Quote:
Do you know how hard it is to code a decent physics engine?


Not as hard, or as much work, as you apparently think it is. A lot of non-programmers are guilty of that, though, as they have no grasp of what's actually involved in doing something, and tend to make vast over- and under-estimations of various things.

Physics, at its heart, is actually one of the more straightforward tasks you could program...it's really nothing more than well-known mathematical concepts. Math is something computers do well (and easily), and this is why you see so many small-scale "simulations" as projects of budding programmers. I can name several home-brewn games off the top of my head that started as a simple physics implementation; for instance, Scorched Earth began as a rudimentary ballistics simulation, and turned into a relatively entertaining artillery game.

Making a helicopter behave like a helicopter in at least rudimentary ways is nothing difficult. The basic physics of it is fairly simple. Rotor hub allows pitch and roll, and applies thrust perpendicular to its axis of rotation. Tail rotor allows yaw. With just that, you can make a passable helicopter...after all, it worked for Urban Assault, and the real differences between tanks, helis, jets and hovers was one of the things that made that game fun.

If you want to make a trainer-quality flight model, yes, that's going to need a significant amount of more work, but there's absolutely no excuse for having it be a tank with 'increase' and 'decrease altitude' keys. That shows absolutely no interest in even trying, and that kind of apathy is probably indicative of similarly sloppy treatment elsewhere in the game. It also defeats their major reason for doing it in the first place -- it's not really variety if it behaves exactly the same, is it?

And while I'm on the topic, I'll give you an informational tidbit about programming: it takes almost as much effort to implement things in a clueless, half-assed fashion as it does to implement them in a simple, but basically correct fashion. The main foundation for any feature is usually a substantial chunk of the beginning work, and since you're going to be doing that work -anyway- no matter how you go about it, it's not really a big deal to do it a different way while you're at it. Thus, the only real reason to do things half-assed is because you can't be bothered to think them through in the first place.

...when games start doing *that* -- it's a sign of deeper problems. You can only cut so many corners.

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-Mekhazzio Sssth'rhee, Magedragon at large

#661238 - 01/20/01 06:25 PM Re: Has anyone heard anything about Flashpoint?  
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Thou shalt not assume...

Until recently I was working for a game developer. I think your experience with physics engines is a little overstated if you think it is as simple as you think. Even a simple collision system is extremely difficult to get right, and what you are asking the flashpoint guys to do is far beyond mere collisions. Yes, you can code those kind of things in fairly easily, but we are not talking about a single implementation, but more than a dozen. Next, you have to consider the processor load that will be added because of your enlarged physics implementation.

etc... etc...

I can say without a doubt in my mind that if they implemented the kind of system you want it would be an economic disaster for their studio.


The word "Martyr" is just a fancy name for "crappy fighter".
#661239 - 01/21/01 01:19 AM Re: Has anyone heard anything about Flashpoint?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Morrison:
Do you know how hard it is to code a decent physics engine? Now you want all your 'advanced' features. You want them all to have different effects on different weapons systems. Let me guess: you'd also complain if it was released a day late.


I couldn't care less when it comes out if it's worth getting.. Because if it's not worth getting, I couldn't care less if it even DOES come out.

And you need to re-read what I said, I wasn't concerned so much with the physics as the systems and implementing them correctly. In many areas it looks as if they aren't even TRYING to be accurate. Most every game that has come out has achieved more detail than that.

It doesn't take a whole lot more "computational power" to make a hellfire behave like a real hellfire (Lasing/radaring a target and LOAL/LOBL launch) than to make it a point-and-click affair. It doesn't take a lot more to give each tank an accurate portrayal of its fire controll system (Do you use the palm switch to dump the lead, or hold the stabalization? Does it have a LRF to give proper range and elevation? Indexing rounds?).

If you ever want to have this game see the light of day you have to realize that compromises are needed. To code what you want is simply impossible from a business standpoint. You'd need 10 programmers doing nothing but physics for like two years. Then you'd still complain that it wasn't realistic enough, and not buy it. The game developers would lose hundreds of thousands of dollars. What you want doesn't make sense.


What I want is the same things many games have provided in the past; DETAIL what you include, don't just give a half-baked appearance of it. How hard is it to make an apache handle like an apache and not like "generic helicoptor" with different weapon loads? They don't seem to care about making the game accurate in those respects, and are just glossing over what would take very little more effort to give some actual detail to.

Many games in the past have covered multiple different units with good levels of detail. WW2OL will probably be the best example of it when it comes out (Depending on how much they carry out their own goals), and that's not a few dozen, but many hundreds of vehicles. Steel Beasts was made by just one SINGLE programmer, and it is by far the most accurate representation of crewable M1 Abrams and Leopard 2 MBTs availible on the PC (As well as the most accurate representation of many other common ground vehicles, about 20 in all, and of overall ground warfare in general).

Compromises are needed, yes. Cutting out the meat of the game to give another nice shiny package with no substance, by not being "bothered" with making unique units "unique", is not a compromise that will make a good game. It is the kind of compromise that kills a good concept.

As I said, if they can't even make the game well enough to detail what they have, I don't think they should even bother. You'd get just as much "realism" and gameplay from some of those (IMO) crappy HalfLife mods...

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Phoenix, lava dragon
"Drive defensively -- buy a tank."

[This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited January 20, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited January 20, 2001).]

#661240 - 01/21/01 03:47 AM Re: Has anyone heard anything about Flashpoint?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Morrison:
Thou shalt not assume...

Until recently I was working for a game developer. I think your experience with physics engines is a little overstated if you think it is as simple as you think. Even a simple collision system is extremely difficult to get right, and what you are asking the flashpoint guys to do is far beyond mere collisions. Yes, you can code those kind of things in fairly easily, but we are not talking about a single implementation, but more than a dozen. Next, you have to consider the processor load that will be added because of your enlarged physics implementation.

.


I think the point everyone is trying to make is that if Flashpoint cant do what its trying to do correctly, then it shouldnt do it at all,

sh*t or get off the pot, as they say

#661241 - 01/21/01 03:54 PM Re: Has anyone heard anything about Flashpoint?  

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Simple bounding-box collision isn't all that, and it's a great deal more work than mere movement.

Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Morrison:
I can say without a doubt in my mind that if they implemented the kind of system you want it would be an economic disaster for their studio.


That's a rather cynical viewpoint...but judging by what kind of action games are currently riding the top of the sales figures, I suppose it might have a grain of truth to it. People don't seem to want their games to take more than a minute to learn these days. So you might be right, even a slight (very slight) bit of depth and originality is probably too much to compete with the bland mainstream crap these days.

Ah, for the days when action games used to be good...

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-Mekhazzio Sssth'rhee, Magedragon at large

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