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#661164 - 03/23/01 03:30 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Paul Morrison Offline
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actually in Cadet mode you can get single shot kills. I crept up on a sentry and took him with one round to the head from my m16 (single shot mode).

Also, I found the AT modelling pretty good.

Using a scavenged RPG9 I took out the bmp and both tanks. I hit the bmp while it was moving into position, one hit kill. Then, I hit the dirt and crawled behind the two tanks, fired into the rear compartment of one and then got up and ran like hell behind some buildings. Came back from a different angle and repeated this a few times, until they were smoldering heaps.


The word "Martyr" is just a fancy name for "crappy fighter".
#661165 - 03/23/01 04:30 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Morrison:

Also, I found the AT modelling pretty good.

Using a scavenged RPG9 I took out the bmp and both tanks. I hit the bmp while it was moving into position, one hit kill. Then, I hit the dirt and crawled behind the two tanks, fired into the rear compartment of one and then got up and ran like hell behind some buildings. Came back from a different angle and repeated this a few times, until they were smoldering heaps.


You can also kill tanks with frag grenades. Probably with the M-16 too. It doesn't matter where you hit them.

Still, could be a cool game, kinda like a modern H&D. Just don't expect any realism.

#661166 - 03/23/01 05:27 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Any realism?

Ummm... let's now discuss for the next 6 weeks what "realism" in a game is...

I see Phoenix is on his "negative" kick yet again. Maybe he should try veteran mode so the enemy is not so easy to kill (I still find them to be easy kills when they act like momo's, but they also have moments of brilliance).

R6/RS has some of the worst AI in history! They either suck or they are DEAD-ON ACCURATE.

DF has some crappy AI too. But at least it doesn't have that laser accuracy of RS.

H&D has good AI at times.. but no better than OPFL. So I don't know what Phoenix is talking about. The two dragon boys (Mekh and Phoenix) should start their own discussion... maybe I will go in there and we can argue the validity of fire breathing dragons.

RB

#661167 - 03/24/01 01:03 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kharan:
You can also kill tanks with frag grenades. Probably with the M-16 too. It doesn't matter where you hit them.

Still, could be a cool game, kinda like a modern H&D. Just don't expect any realism.


So you might be able to kill a tank with a rifle or frag grenade in the game - I don't see that as being unrealstic since realistically you wouldn't try that in real life.

There are some things in any game that will have to be a compromise. If those compromises are controlled by the idealogy of "The player wouldn't do this in real life" then I really don't see a problem with it.

Pete

#661168 - 03/24/01 02:46 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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I've downloaded this demo and can see where all the gushing praise is coming from, it really is quite remarkable.

I only have a 56k modem and the initial download was corrupt but the second attempt was fine, I think I deserve a medal for my patience

Also noticed some people complaining about a couple of minor points, and as Pete has pointed out, why do these things? it reminds me of a ridiculous argument on usenet about B17II where some user had attempted to put (admittedly not the best) flight model into a loop and finally succeeded...I just wouldn't waste my time trying to do something like this Ironically someone then posted data to say that a B17 actually managed this...but I digress.

If this game is as good as the demo hints, and the Multiplayer works at least as good as RS/UO (hopefully much better for us 56k types) then this will be something special indeed.

MD

#661169 - 03/24/01 07:01 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Razorback:
Maybe he should try veteran mode so the enemy is not so easy to kill


It wasn't the number of shots that it took to kill them, it's how much they act like morons at time. I didn't say the AI was worse than the other games you mentioned, but it certainly isn't better.

And as for the person who commented that the AT modeling seemed "pretty good".. Real RPGs don't fly in a perfectly straight line, and -would- have killed those T72s with the first round to their rear.

Overall, I'm really not impressed. Flashpoint seems to have the same simple-minded gameplay and low-realism of other games already several years old, and seems to have only concentrated on getting the graphics to look better rather than improving the meat of it. It's a great concept, but the execution is lacking.

------------------
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"Drive defensively -- buy a tank."

#661170 - 03/24/01 01:23 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Pygmy makes a great point. Same one I used to make about the B-17 II momo's looping the buff.. WHY?

Phoenix, II agree the AI can do some strange things and that the RPG's don't act realistically but this is NOT supposed to be hyper-realistic or even slightly realistic. We were told before the demo was released that this would be geared towards the gaming crowd. I am judging it on THAT factor.

As a "game" it is a lot of fun. It is a great distraction until Al Delaney finishes Steel Beasts 2.

RB

#661171 - 03/24/01 10:44 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Looking at it from a pure game stance, Tribes 2 will do the vehicles better (Control etc...) and Venom is better in every other way. The only thing I thought Op FP had going for it was the realism aspect of not being sci-fi. If this thing doesn't have great multiplay I worry about how well it is going to do. It has some very cool aspects but I can't say that I see any of the cool AI that people keep talking about. All I see is little guys running the same pre-set tracks and shooting at you (badly) if they see you.

The problems I see with the AI include enemy and my guys running right by each other only about 5 feet apart and not fighting at all. My ability to walk right up on enemy who are laying down while I take pot shots at them, they don't bother to turn around until I hit them with a bullet. Tanks knowing that I am in a building even if they can't see me, and my ablity to run right up to tanks and run around them until it decided that I am no longer a threat to it. If you want to try kill a tank with grenades, sneak up behind it and make sure your grenades land on its front half. It will not turn around to kill you.

I hope the control and AI are the last 15% that need to be completed. For right now the game looks just way to easy to win and the control and AI seem not good enough IMO.

Z


Z
#661172 - 03/25/01 10:32 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Well.. whatever you may be seeing is wrong.. I have played the same mission 30 times or more and the AI does NOT do the same thing every time.

The last time I played my squad went into the small village and then proceeded to the woods on the right and flanked the enemy, instead of attacking them head-on.

Other times I have noticed that the enemy attacks in full force at the beginning while other times they seem to hang back.

I think people who dislike this game and who knock the AI are doing so because they WANT to dislike it.

Some people hate Elvis because everyone else loves him... etc etc etc.

It's a sickness, some people need to get help.

RB

#661173 - 03/25/01 12:14 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Glad to know you know what I am seeing. You have played the demo 30 times? Well I have done it about 10 times that many times, note that I didn't come and comment on this demo right off. I waited until I had given it a very good going through. The AI seem to have a few different set-ups that they use but they are all so close that I can run the exact same path each time and beat the mission every time.

It has nothing to do with me not wanting to like this one, I have wanted it for some time. I may be the helo guy around here but Tactical FPS are the games that I play and enjoy the most. I will get this game no matter what I see in the demo, I just hope the full thing has more to offer then what I see in the demo, it is just to easy.

Then again I wouldn't trade the lightning fast AI in the R6 series for anything because it would be too easy then as well.

------------------
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#661174 - 03/25/01 04:36 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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I think what we're seeing here, and any negative comments are a result of the overhype we are giving this demo.
I still think it's outstanding, but perhaps we should all step back and lets see what develops, going by what I've read so far if the final product is anything less than 100% perfect in all areas, people are going to be pretty p*ssed off.

In my experience if anything is discussed and found to be positive, then you will get detractors as well...helps balance things out I guess nothings perfect and no software , especially a first person shooter ever will be, AI is possibly the hardest of all things to model these days with eye candy probably being the easiest.

I've seen howling errors with the AI in this demo, but I can live with it, if it improves in the final product ..then so much the better, what I do hope the final product has is sharp multiplay code, then the AI will be a moot point because I will be playing with my friends...who are extremely unpredictable in their actions (I know some of them will be reading this)

Anyway, I see both sides of the coin here, and if we overhype this one and it fails to deliver...well that would be a real shame.

Ramble over

MD

#661175 - 03/25/01 05:45 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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I find the demo to be a blast personally.

As for the 'realism' stuff. I don't think we really want a totally realistic game from this. There is a fine line between keeping the game fun and making it a definitive tactical game. There are some things that could be better, that is for sure.

The rush that the troops use is not very accurate and wouldn't work well in real life. I would like to see a bounding overwatch style of advance with the troops instead of the pell mell run to battle that there is now. The way the troops attack now would be deadly to real troops. To do it right sure would slow the game down though. That isn't bad but the shooter fans might get bored with it. Its definatly a compromise.

Lets remember that this is a demo of an unfinished game and we should be offering suggestions, not criticism of what isn't done yet. It may be that this is representative of the final product-it could be that they released something so we could get a taste of what to expect. Either way, serious criticism should wait until the final product is released. I have played enough demos to know that what you see in a demonstration is often a lot different than the final product.



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#661176 - 03/25/01 08:20 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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You complain about realism, but I have yet to hear anyone point out that a direct Warsaw Pact/NATO conflict (on remote islands) never occured in 1985

It's a good game.

#661177 - 03/25/01 09:34 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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And no one has ever stated it was a SIM. It is a game. better than Half-Life FLF or TFC.. or Quake 3 etc.

It will be loved by people who play DF3, TFC, FLF and other team oriented combat games. It is FUN. As I have stated before, if it is a realistic SIM you want then Steel Beasts is awesome.. and SB2 will probably rock the universe.

RB

#661178 - 03/25/01 11:19 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Razorback:
and SB2 will probably rock the universe.

RB


I agreed completely until you said that. Probably is incorrect. Steel Beasts II WILL Rock the Universe

~Rookie

#661179 - 03/25/01 11:24 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Razorback:
And no one has ever stated it was a SIM. It is a game. better than Half-Life FLF or TFC.. or Quake 3 etc.

RB


Maybe it will be better then those games but I still think that it might have some competition from Tribes 2 and Venom. Every shooter fan I know is holding out for T2, I doubt any other game will come close in the multiplayer aspect to it. The Venom demo did the tactical part better then the OP FP demo does. Venoms AI was much better and shooter fans will be drawn to the cool weapons it has to offer. The draw that OP FP has is the real weapons etc.. It doesn't make use of these very well so the big draw is pretty much lost. I am just trying to find out what it is that will seperate it from the others and make it a big seller so that we will get patches and support..


------------------
Don't think of it as being outnumbered,think of it as having a wide target selection.
Z
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Z
#661180 - 03/25/01 11:48 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Zerog, I read your comments and I must say, they were at odds with my experiences.

>The problems I see with the AI include
>enemy and my guys running right by each
>other only about 5 feet apart and not
>fighting at all.

I have seen this, but I think it is pretty rare. Usually the two sides duke it out at reasonably accurate distances of about 50-100 meters, and it is only very rarely that I have seen an enemy soldier end up passing by my troops, and my troops ignore them. Most of the time an enemy is shot dead as they try to walk by. I *HAVE* seen the enemy run by me while I was prone and not firing, this is realistically modelling human behaviour. If I'm not moving, and am still and prone, chances are you won't see me.

>My ability to walk right
>up on enemy who are laying down while I
>take pot shots at them, they don't bother
>to turn around until I hit them with a
>bullet.

This I have never seen. Anytime I shoot at *ANY* target the nearby enemies immediately open up on my position, even if they can't see me exactly they lay down suppressive fire, even if I miss my shot.

I recall flanking a MG'er and a soldier, as they ran by, I fired a single shot at the front soldier, mr. MG dropped to the ground fumbling to fire at me, soldier kept running at me and began firing from the hip. I managed to drop him, but mr. MG cut me in half with his PK.

>Tanks knowing that I am in a
>building even if they can't see me, and my
>ablity to run right up to tanks and run
>around them until it decided that I am no
>longer a threat to it.

Admittedly I have never tried running in circles around a tank, especially given that the tanks usually have infantry nearby. However, the first complaint, of them being able to *magically* know your whereabouts is I think misplaced. I have had the tanks put a round into a building I am in, but only after I do something to give away my position. Say, fire a rocket, throw a grenade or fire my gun. Even at a soldier, and not the tank. On one occaison I was shot by the tank's main gun without provocation, but I was standing easily visible in the window.

>If you want to try
>kill a tank with grenades, sneak up behind
>it and make sure your grenades land on its
>front half. It will not turn around to kill
>you.

Never tried grenades (actually I did once, and recieved a round from the main gun for my troubles), but I can say that the tanks do turn their guns to face you. I had a tank chase me around for about 2 minutes, every turn I made the turret (and accompanying fire) followed.

Also, having read the complaints about the RPG, I have seen the RPG go off course, and I have seen the RPG kill a t72 first shot. I have also seen the missile fly straight as an arrow and take three or four shots to kill. Just as in real life whether the round flies straight or not, and whether the shot kills or not is dependent mainly on luck. Sometimes a rear shot would kill in real life, sometimes it wouldn't. I think the RPG was modelled pretty accurately, complaints about 'locking on' notwithstanding.

So, frankly


The word "Martyr" is just a fancy name for "crappy fighter".
#661181 - 03/26/01 05:40 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix:
And as for the person who commented that the AT modeling seemed "pretty good".. Real RPGs don't fly in a perfectly straight line, and -would- have killed those T72s with the first round to their rear.


A real RPG might have killed a T72 with a single round to the rear. You still need a relatively flat angle of obliquity to have a HEAT type warhead penetrate armor, even the "thinner" armor in the rear of a tank.

Have you ever shot an man packed anti-tank round before? Everyone I've shot and seen shot pretty much travel in a straight line. I'm not sure I'm following your train of thought here - why doesn't an RPG fly straight out of the tube?

Pete

#661182 - 03/26/01 05:41 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Quote:

Sometimes a rear shot would kill in real life, sometimes it wouldn't.


Change that to most of the time it would kill, and very occasionally it wouldn't, and it would be accurate. An RPG7 can penetrate about twice the armor a T72BV has on the rear of its turret and hull. Assuming a simple, direct hit right on the rear compartment, that tank will be dead. At the very least (If the crew is extremely lucky) the engine will be destroyed and the tank disabled. Considering the layout of the ammo and fuel storage in the T72, it would also be extremely likely to start a fire inside the tank, if not ignite an immediate explosion.

An RPG7 is a serious threat to an M1A2-SEP at the rear, much less a tank like the T72BV.

------------------
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"Drive defensively -- buy a tank."

#661183 - 03/26/01 05:13 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Ok... I have killed a T-72 in OPFL with one shot from a RPG.

I forget Phoenix... which branch of service where you in? And what was your function in the military? I'm just trying to figure out how come you know so much more than other men who have actually been there.

RB

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