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#661104 - 03/20/01 04:14 PM OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Check it out here Operation-Flashpoint.de or here http://www.opfhq.cjb.net/ .

-O-


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#661105 - 03/20/01 06:31 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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That figures. I see that the OFP demo is out when I get to work. Now for a LONG 8 hours! Can't wait to try it out.


--Softball



--SOFTBALL
--RLGaming Portal



"The tragedy of war is that it uses man's best to do man's worst." - Harry Emerson Fosdick 1933
#661106 - 03/20/01 07:47 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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/rub in on

It'll be worth it!! Softball!

I checked it out briefly and it's pretty unique and fun! Even in (unfinished)demo form. It's a bit sluggish when a lot starts going on my 500 128ram 32GeForce GTS but definately playable! You get to drive a jeep, ride in a truck and attack an enemy squad!
I'm pretty pysched about this title!
/rub in off


[This message has been edited by Tusk (edited March 20, 2001).]


"Calling upon my years of experience, I froze at the controls." - Stirling Moss
#661107 - 03/20/01 09:08 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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My co-workers and I downloaded the demo and sent it to about a dozen other guys in the company. Everyone but me has a 4 meg video card, and it runs well on their machines (except the ground is white.. but it looks like snow so nobody minds).

I have a Radeon in mine so everyone crowded around while I was in a battle.

Let me say this:

I WAS WRONG! Every bad thing I said about this game.. I WAS WRONG!!!!!!! IT F****** ROCKS!!!!! I have not been so lost inside the world of a game since SEAL TEAM. I actually got a rush from playing this game!

GET IT! NOW!

RB

#661108 - 03/20/01 10:37 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Just downloaded it, gonna do a thorough check of the game tonight. I had to quit (wife started bitching) just as I got into and started riding with the LT (freaking LT's, why is he driving?).

It felt pretty damned good, I can't wait to do some serious road marching in this game. I have a lot, I mean a lot of friends that like myself spent a good part of our military lives preparing for this conflict. I am very interested in this game.



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#661109 - 03/20/01 11:15 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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BAD TUSK, BAD!!!!! NOW YOU GOTO YOUR ROOM........AND NO COMPUTER EITHER!!!



I think I am feeling ill,, I need to go home and get some............rest, yea, that's it.

I am gonna leave work a little early today, just had a family emergency....... The dogs ran out of food and water. lol.


I CAN'T WAIT!!! Thanks for sharing Tusk, et al.


--Softball



--SOFTBALL
--RLGaming Portal



"The tragedy of war is that it uses man's best to do man's worst." - Harry Emerson Fosdick 1933
#661110 - 03/21/01 03:05 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Initial reaction is....I'm impressed; I'm really impressed.



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#661111 - 03/21/01 04:08 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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I dig it.

Pete

#661112 - 03/21/01 04:25 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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It is far more than I expected. As I have said billions of times, nothing has come close to SEAL TEAM's feeling of actually being there... until now. I can't wait to see the finished product.

There are still some things about this one that bug me.. like parachuting from a dust-off (after the chopper has been shot down) and some strange military slang... but what do you expect from a non-American company? I can get past all that stuff if the game play is as good as the demo.

RB

#661113 - 03/21/01 05:12 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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I am pretty impressed myself. I actually enjoy this game so far. The actual 'wargame' part of a field exercise was usually the most exciting-sitting in your foxhole in the middle of the night behind an M-60 (I was the freaking medic and they put me on guard duty with the 60!) knowing that the OPFOR was going to do an infiltration and try to get into your perimeter. I mean, we all knew it was a game but damned it was thrilling to do that. I felt like a kid when we were in that part of an ARTEP.

I miss it somedays-here in REMF (let someone else explain what that means if you don't know-its kinda dirty) land. Being a rear echelon person isn't as much fun as being dirty, but you get home at a decent hour I guess.

This game actually got my blood pumping, like it did almost 10 years ago when I was a corporal myself. I really enjoyed that. It isn't perfect, but it is pretty darned good.

My biggest gripe, the dialogue. Who wrote that? The scene in the back of the Deuce was hilarious-they need to hire a staff sergeant or a SFC to shore that up quick.



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#661114 - 03/21/01 07:20 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Ok, I FINALLY got to mess around with OFP. I LOVE IT!!! This one is gonna be BAD ASS!!! The demo was pretty short, but it gives you a good idea of what the game will be like. I think MP will be a TOTAL BLAST! And a Mission Editor too!!

I agree, the movies in between objectives keeps you informed and adds to the story.
I felt pretty much like the Corporal that you are, only taking/following orders and reporting enemy sightings. I also like the fact that you have to really LOOK for the enemy soldiers to spot them(NO RADAR SCREENS, ). Unless your squad mates spot them first, then they are highlighted with small brackets. At least I think that is what was happening.

I have just a few more comments/questions.

Is there a way to crouch to one knee? I only saw the STAND and PRONE POSITION selection.

Can you carry more than just the M-16 and the LAW? I would pick up the AK-47 and the M-16 would get dropped. I try putting the M-16 on my back and the guy stands up, and am unable to pick up the AK-47. Just wondering.

I am assuming that you are supposed to stay with the LEADER? I basically was following the yellow box on the screen as sort of a Waypoint. Is this the correct method?

Will there be night missions? And if so, will there be NVGs? Were NVGs even around in the 80s? I haven't seen any screen shots of night missions, so I was wondering about that.

On that same note, will there be weather? Snow? Rain? I hope so.

I was hoping that we would get to see some Air Support(In Action) in the demo, but no such luck. No big, at least you get to fly in the Blackhawk, temporarily.

If you like Delta Force, Rainbow 6, Hidden and Dangerous, Battlezone 2, etc.. all in one game, then you will LOVE OFP. This game is DA BOMB!!


--Softball



--SOFTBALL
--RLGaming Portal



"The tragedy of war is that it uses man's best to do man's worst." - Harry Emerson Fosdick 1933
#661115 - 03/21/01 08:10 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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woooooooow
So when is coming out?
Multiplayer...
Ive got few Israeli friends who did this for real just few years ago, they will probably kick my ass

#661116 - 03/21/01 08:19 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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The web site says May 2001. So look for it sometime around May.

Multiplayer is gonna be great. You can play with both human and AI controlled troops. Should be a hoot.

--Softball



--SOFTBALL
--RLGaming Portal



"The tragedy of war is that it uses man's best to do man's worst." - Harry Emerson Fosdick 1933
#661117 - 03/21/01 08:22 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Some of the dialogue reminds me of that "All your base are belong to us" stuff. You know, that game where the translation to English came out all wrong.

It's funny.. but it is also something that could make a great game into a big joke too.

It's quirky... great.. and then you parachute out of a Blackhawk... and the option is called "eject." Yeah, I can get around it somehow.. but it's just dumb, silly crap.

RB

#661118 - 03/21/01 08:51 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Thank god for cable modems, 6 minute download!!!

WOW!! The demo is awesome, this is a definate must have when it comes out

------------------
~VIPER OUT

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#661119 - 03/21/01 09:17 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Weird. Did I download a different demo from everybody else? All I'm seeing is yet another silly shooter.

And really, if y'all are gunna gripe about the dialog, let's talk about those radio comms. With....a....breath...between....every.....word. Oy! My squad's being commanded by James T. Kirk.

------------------
-Mekhazzio Sssth'rhee, Magedragon at large

#661120 - 03/21/01 01:59 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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I thought it was better than just your normal shooter. You can drive vehicles and the AI is pretty good and one of the coolest scenes is when your in the Blackhawk and the Shilka shoots it down and you have to bail out. BTW, there is going to be multiplay.

------------------
~VIPER OUT

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#661121 - 03/21/01 03:04 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Flashpoint Demo Story (maybe this should be a new thread! I'll leave it to the Moderator)

I got clipped in leg. Wasn't sure since there is no "health bar" or indicator. I was prone and when I tried to get up, I saw red, groaned and fell back down. I get a radio message "2 call for medic at 11 oclock". I call for medic, and crawl towards him. He eventually runs over. After he shuffles off, I can get up!

Cool!

Also, be careful with the jeep. I clipped a tree and broke the windshield! The ultimate would've been having my "leader" yell at me for it! (sigh)

I think what really gets me with this demo/game is I'm not the Hero. The success of the mission doesn't pivot on ME. It's nice to be a part of a bigger picture and still make a difference.


"Calling upon my years of experience, I froze at the controls." - Stirling Moss
#661122 - 03/21/01 04:26 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Hey Mekh... you gotta admit that those squaddies in OFP are a heck of a lot more "artificially intelligent" than the Rainbow 6 goons.

I thought the demo was pretty cool.

Just in front of the second town, there are some ammo crates (by the barbed wire) that have a few extra RPG9 rounds. Pretty cool to run around the buildings and play ambush with the BMP and T-72s, although it usually takes 2-3 RPG hits to knock out a T-72. You can even climb up stairs and shoot out the second and third-story windows. Be careful, though because those '72s aren't afraid to fire their main gun into the same windows. When they do, the whole building facade crumbles, and if the blast doesn't get you, the fall certainly will.

Also, did anyone notice that just about the time the T-72s show up, that an M113 shows up on the opposite side of the town?

The dialogue is a hoot...

"oh" ... "no" ... "one is down"

Of course from the tone of voice, you'd think the next line would be:

"oh" ... "no" ... "my shoelace is untied"



[This message has been edited by Spiff (edited March 21, 2001).]

#661123 - 03/21/01 04:40 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Wait a sec! Mekh doesn't like something others think is really cool???

Wow... I'm SHOCKED!

RB

#661124 - 03/21/01 05:50 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Spiff:
Hey Mekh... you gotta admit that those squaddies in OFP are a heck of a lot more "artificially intelligent" than the Rainbow 6 goons.


Pretty much everything is I wasn't really impressed by the AI. It was about as typically bad as is expected, but even more so for the AFVs. It seems all the squad navigation was scripted across many discrete waypoints, and -all- the AFV movement was scripted, which would explain why they're so extremely stupid (those BMPs should chew up your squad in that terrain with no trouble)

I like how the T-72s shrug off flank and rear RPG hits...it must just be a 'hitpoint' thing and not taking differential armor into account (but really, even a frontal hit is kind of questionable) I edited the mission file so I started in one, too, and tried driving it around. The M1 GAS with Cyrillic labels is hilarious The target radar and "target-lock" is amusing, too.

All in all, Wargasm was better. At least it admits its just a silly shooter, and sets out to do it decently.

------------------
-Mekhazzio Sssth'rhee, Magedragon at large

#661125 - 03/21/01 06:18 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Ahhh.. the ever know-it-all Mekh speaks again.

OPFLSH is not supposed to be anything but a game. It never pretends to be realistic. I just think the combat is exciting (Veteran mode is much more satisfying than Cadet).

Also, this is a demo of an incompleted game. So far it is still better than DF, R6, SWAT 3, Spec Ops.. zzzzzzz..

RB

[This message has been edited by Razorback (edited March 21, 2001).]

#661126 - 03/21/01 07:08 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Mekhazzio:
Weird. Did I download a different demo from everybody else? All I'm seeing is yet another silly shooter.

And really, if y'all are gunna gripe about the dialog, let's talk about those radio comms. With....a....breath...between....every.....word. Oy! My squad's being commanded by James T. Kirk.




Wow, My streak is intact. Every Game you dislike I like. Please post in bold if you ever find a sim you like so that way we can all avoid it like rat poison.

Have you ever said a good thing about any game or sim?

#661127 - 03/21/01 08:00 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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C'mon guys, everyone's got a right to an opinion. Let's not take this thread spiraling down.

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#661128 - 03/21/01 08:24 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Well, I have found an answer to one of my questions. I downloaded a 12 minute "In-game" movie, and it has NIGHT MISSIONS!! WITH NVGs! WOO HOO!! Looks pretty dang nice too. I also saw what looked like being able to fly the Russian HIND? OH MAN!! I also got to see 2 of the sniper rifles. I must be dreaming.....

Excuse me, but I need to wipe the drool off of my keyboard and desk.

Hey everyone, if Mekhazzio doesn't like the game, so what. That's his opinion, and he's entitled to it. Mekhazzio's opinion is not going to keep me from playing it. Why do we need to resort to flaming someone because they don't like a certain game? That's what these boards are for, voicing opinions, good or bad. Let's just move on and enjoy OFP for what YOU/WE like it for. Personally, I LOVE the game. Brings back memories of my military days.


--Softball



--SOFTBALL
--RLGaming Portal



"The tragedy of war is that it uses man's best to do man's worst." - Harry Emerson Fosdick 1933
#661129 - 03/21/01 08:24 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spoons - SimHQ:
C'mon guys, everyone's got a right to an opinion. Let's not take this thread spiraling down.



That's right. His just happens to be wrong.

I know this won't be perfect, but if it's close enough that you can get lost in it, so be it.
The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#661130 - 03/21/01 08:33 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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quote:
That's right. His just happens to be wrong.

roflmao..............The comedy force is strong in this one


To..
#661131 - 03/21/01 08:47 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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I don't ever take Mekh's opinions too seriously.. because he is just a very negative person. I'm just pointing out how extremely negative the guy is.. I'm trying to help him come to terms with his evil side.

RB

#661132 - 03/21/01 08:51 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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I don't care how evil he is, I want to know how to mod myself into a T-72.

#661133 - 03/21/01 09:02 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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I enjoyed the demo a great deal.
I am also an ex cold warrior (infantry 11B)
The terrain reminded me of my units main training area at Ft Hunter Ligget cal. The sunrise made it look astonishinly similar
Far and away better than the deltaforce series, and more akin to rogue spear on a vast scale

Being able to jump in and drive was a hoot, the sounds are flat out excellent. The dialog well, I don't mind it, but real infantry speak is extraordinarily profanity studded.
The lighting and effects are awsome.
This game may change the way we look at tactical shooters. The world has been opened up.
If the multiplayer code is up to snuff, this one may take over the tactical shoter world in a hurry.
Even in singleplayer it should be very popular.

------------------
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#661134 - 03/21/01 09:07 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Grab a hex editor, open up missions\demo1.demo.pbo, go to 0x12DB9h, change "SoldierWB"; to "T72";, spacebar out the extra space, then go down a bit and change the "LOCKED" to "UNLOCKED". And enjoy the T-72 with the screwed up control scheme, no ballistics, and M1 reticles.

It will also glitch out the mission too, since you're supposed to be driving the goofball around in the jeep instead of parading around in a Russian tank

------------------
-Mekhazzio Sssth'rhee, Magedragon at large

#661135 - 03/21/01 09:18 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Thanks Mekh... I'll make sure I play with a sufficiently pouty expression.

#661136 - 03/21/01 09:23 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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You can try other the other objects in the demo too. There are a bunch of different soldier types, which determines what weapons you start with, and the trucks, plus there's "T72", "BMP", "M113", "UH60" and maybe "ZSU". You're better off sticking with the soldiers, though: the vehicles aren't done very well.

------------------
-Mekhazzio Sssth'rhee, Magedragon at large

#661137 - 03/21/01 09:59 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Spoons - SimHQ:
C'mon guys, everyone's got a right to an opinion. Let's not take this thread spiraling down.




Absolutely, I wasn't slamming him, simply asking for a public service. I did find one sim he likes, Steel Beasts so he can't be all bad

Plus, he came back with some hints and tips for OFP so there must be a little something that keeps him coming back

#661138 - 03/21/01 10:06 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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No, Mekh isn't all bad.. his work on Steel Beasts is great (as is his opinion of that sim) but it's the overall evilness of the man that disturbs me.

Unfortunately, my attempts at convincing SimHQ to ban him have been denied by Spoonsy... (sniff.. sad when Spoons doesn't see the pure GENIUS in my humor sometimes).

RB

#661139 - 03/22/01 12:35 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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I really like what this game could be if they cleaned up the movement. Right now it seems very sloppy and "harsh" compared to the refined, smooth movement in other FPSs.

The vehicle stuff seems ok, but once you get on foot, it's just cheezy and feels wrong. I'm not talking about the bobbing effects, but rather the overall grainy feeling of it.


Jon "Varmint" Blum
Vertical Reality Simulations
http://www.vrsimulations.com
#661140 - 03/22/01 02:54 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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I liked it. Shows a lot of promise. Spent time down in the Balkans. Pretty similar to what I had seen there.

#661141 - 03/22/01 04:45 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Ehh.. I was disapointed. It seems almost like you're fighting the controlls and interface more than you are fighting the enemy. It could be good for a rather mindless shooter, but it falls rather short of being the combined-arms tactical game that it set out to be. The AI is about typical of most FPS games, along with all the stupid behavior (I've several times gone through an area where we had cleaned up to find a lone enemy soldier standing stupidly in the middle of his dead commrads while he could quite easily hear the shooting from my platoon only 150 meters away over a ridge.. Not only that, he was facing the wrong way, letting me shoot him even though he was practicly invisible at more than 50 meters!). The little pop-up window that IDs and ranges targets for you is reeeealy annoying, partly because it lets you spot enemies through bushes (I've killed several that way), but even moreso because it's the ONLY way you can possibly identify someone at over 100 meters. I've even walked up on soldiers at under 10 meters, and had to put the crosshairs on them to figure out what side they're on. The game is not well designed for running on low- to mid-range machines. :P

And then there's the typical silliness of the T72s (I drove one, and took THREE RPGs to the rear. No system damage, but my armor was damaged to "yellow".) If you figure out a good spot that the mission designer didn't anticipate you to be at, you can pick off the whole enemy squad as they run past you on their fixed routes. That and the small-arms seem to have no noticable difference for lethality. I didn't notice any difference between the 5.56x45 (M16), 7.62x39 (AK74SU), 7.62x51 (M60), or 7.62x54 (T72 coax). They all seemed to take three hits to drop someone, even if you group them all center-mass. That and the only time you seem to have any penalty for being hit is when it's in the legs (Which of course brings you to the instant-healing medic).

Ehh.. Overall, I'd put it right about on-par with Hidden & Dangerous, maybe a little less, with some things better, and some things worse. I think H&D had more potential, though, Flashpoint just seems to get too much of it wrong... I know it's not supposed to be entirely realistic in terms of control and the like, but it just seems like they weren't even trying, like they just wanted to make another simple-minded FPS with the illusion of real-world combat, but without trying to make it really stand up when tested.

------------------
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"Drive defensively -- buy a tank."

#661142 - 03/22/01 04:45 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Moved to the new OFP message board.

http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/boards/cgi-...point&number=57

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#661143 - 03/22/01 05:35 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Disclaimer!!!!!!!!!!

Phoenix is Mekh's other personality.. exactly the same in every way... just 1/8th the originality.

RB

#661144 - 03/22/01 12:55 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Razorback:
Disclaimer!!!!!!!!!!

Phoenix is Mekh's other personality..


I see you're as friendly as ever :P



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"Drive defensively -- buy a tank."

#661145 - 03/22/01 04:34 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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OK, I finally played the demo last night and I gotta say it... WOW!!!

I was very impressed by this one.

Great immersion factor.

I like the heavy attention to detail.

For example: I crashed the jeep a little just to see what would happen. I broke the front windscreen and noticed that when I got out of the jeep, I was bleeding. Very nice.

I put a round through the door by accident when I was getting in the jeep, it went through the door, and hit the LT in the leg. He was bleeding inside the jeep and out, but did not seem to notice he was hit until after he exited the jeep. Nice, small flaw there, but this is an 85% complete demo. I hope they fix that.

I noticed that everything can be picked up, including the weapons of the enemy, but I think that the standard ammo load is a little low for an assault like the one in the demo.

I like how cover and concealment actually works, and the bad guys do not stick out like a thumb. Very hard to see at range, and sometimes you only see the small muzzle flash and puff of smoke when they are firing at you. Alsdo, they are not inhumanly accurate, and they have a sophisticated AI that allows them to make use of cover and concealment where possible, and return fire will suppress them. They don't act like bullet proof supermen that cannot die. You shoot at them and they will try to not get hit. Very nice.

Grenades work pretty realistically as well, producing both close range casualties as well as suppression results at slightly longer ranges. Cool.

So far I like it a lot, although there are a few gameplay and stability issues to resolve. But hey, this is basically a working demo of a product in beta. I think it works great for that level of completion.

Sounds need to be worked on though. You should have much better sound cues, as you would in the real world.

Overall, I would say very nicely done so far. I'll be buying this one.

-Skater

#661146 - 03/22/01 07:10 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Skater, when the UAZ came into the little village, I opened up at the windshield. It stopped, and an RPG guy hopped out of the back and started to run. After I got him, I went over to the UAZ--two dead guys in the front seats slumped over with shattered windows in front of them--what detail!
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#661147 - 03/22/01 07:34 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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I got one even better.. but similar.

I was on top of the hill overlooking the battle, mostly just watching my guys when it came rolling towards the small village. I single fired into the vehicle from over 100 meters. When I finally got down to it 2 guys were dead in the vehicle and one dead right outside of it.

Too cool.

RB

#661148 - 03/22/01 07:57 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Am I getting this right? A tank with a hit point system? It's bad enough when everybody insists on using it with the PBI (I guarantee you that if I shoot any of YOU through the chest two times with an M16, you'll be very dead. Doesn't take three hits), but that appears to be par for the course these days. (Don't pay me no never mind, though, I've hated hit point systems ever since D&D was invented, it's the most unrealistic bull I've ever heard of). But for a tank????????????????? Whatever the hell happened to trying to hit it? When you hit a tank with an RPG, it either kills it or it doesn't. And it doesn't depend on no "hitpoints", if you'll pardon my use of the double negative, it's only got to do with where you hit, if at all...

So I suppose that if you hit the T-72 a sufficient number of times with the M-16, you'll kill it as well? Granted, given the "damage roll" for an M-16 compared with an RPG, you might be standing around all day firing away at it, but eventually it WILL blow up, I guess... We *are* using a fantastic "hit point" system to model damage here, after all, who cares about reality...

And it showed so much potential...

Misha

#661149 - 03/22/01 08:42 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Wow... angry about a demo much?

I don't like hit points either, but if you want realism in a massive combat area like this one then you are going to have to wait for Steel Beasts 2. I think that will have everything you want (and I want).

RB

#661150 - 03/22/01 09:00 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Nahhhh.... LOL I think it's mainly a case of massive disappointment. Once in a while, something that sounds like a truly innovative and great idea comes along and then, when it starts hitting the market, it turns out that it's yet another case of "been there, seen that, done it in my sleep"... But at least they had the decency of slipping out a demo first, so that you wouldn't have to part with any hard-earned cash to find out that such was the case

And I'm sure that a huge number of people will find it to be better than sliced cheese and that's fine, to each his own, it's just that I personally lose every last bit of "immersive feeling" the moment I find a hit point system in action. In my opinion, if you're hit in the head, you're dead, in the heart, you're dead etc. It doesn't make one whit of a diff how much training you have, a 7.62mm through the skull kills ya any old time. And there is no such thing as "degrees of damage" with a hollow shaped charge. Either it kills the vehicle or it doesn't.

So I guess I'll just lean back and wait again. Surely some day the right thing will come along. It just wasn't this time either...

Misha

#661151 - 03/22/01 09:29 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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I can't believe I'm hearing negative comments on this game (not suggestions for the things that should be improved)...

I mean, to say that this masterpiece (there wasn't a game like this ever made - you don't make important decisions, you are just a grunt) is worse than H&D (which was interesting because it was WWII and there wasn't and 'till the Medal of Honour:Allied Assault comes out still isn't a better game; the flaws and bugs irritated me so much that the game was unplayable to me after a certain amount of time invested in it) is just being childish and not serious at all (OK, let's call it the way we should - dumb like hell)...
Anyway, if they don't like it they should stick to what ever it is they like and stop showing off - like 'everyone like it, so we, the 'real experts' who are above common mortal gamers, see that this is just another bad game and we are so call that we can round-up all it's flaws and thus the game sucks... Who cares it's something new and best FPS yet... Everyone likes it so we would not...'
It's PATHETIC!

P.S. BIS, I salute you and please don't mess up what we have seen so far and make our next two-month waiting worth while in every way... Just so much, please...


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#661152 - 03/22/01 09:43 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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The only thing I would like to see is the capability of a NON hit point based system. Like an ELITE level or something.

Other than that I love it.

I will probably play in games where vehicles are not used. I just want to have a squad based combat game... maybe with some nice arty.

RB

#661153 - 03/22/01 10:36 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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I've been toying around with the demo since Tuesday night. All I can say is WOW!

Some things that I have noticed:

-AI is very good, even for an 85% finished product.
-LOS is modeled well. If you hide in bushes or heavy foliage you won't be seen as long as you stay put and don't shoot.
-Tanks take two RPG hits to take out, from about 50m. BMPs take a sinlge shot
-Driving the Soviet truck is fun, although running over enemy troops doesn't work...sigh...
-Enemy tank crews bail out if their tank becomes disabled. Kinda funny to watch them. They carry AKSUs...great for short range work

Some things that I'd like for the developers to tweak:
-If you gunfire hits house walls, I'd like to see pock marks and visual damage. Same thing with armored and non-armored vehicles.
-Getting hit in the leg should slow you down...
-Bounding overwatch (cover fire) should be implemented. I can't stand seeing my squad recklessly charging into a gun fight...not realistic...but then again its not suppossed to simulate a REAL environment.
-Destroyed vehicles should stay smoldering for longer periods of time.
-I'd like to hear both friendly and enemy troops scream out in pain when they're hit. Also, could we have them call out for a medic...? Make it more interesting.
-Body parts should fly

#661154 - 03/22/01 11:18 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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I would also like to see relative hardness of cover modeled.

Example, hide behind a boulder, and there is not much chance of a round penetrating and injuring you. Hide in a wood and plaster structure, and high powered assault rifle fire WILL penetrate with ease, and the round will retain enough energy to cause injury and death.

I do not want to see any armored vehicles able to be destroyed by rifle fire. I would like to see the modeling of armor piercing rounds able to penetrate one side of a BMP and do damage to occupants from inside of effective weapons range (for that target type, 100-150 meters).

I would like to see "channeling" modeled.

Example: In an urban setting, hug the walls, and you are guaranteed to catch a bullet, as rounds fired tend to "channel" down and ride the walls.

This game has A LOT of potential, and it can be made SO MUCH better. Potetial for different eras and user mods is HUGE. I hope they open up the architecture to allow for that.

I am hooked. We are already playing with it after hours at work. I would really like to see a working Windows 2000 version of the demo with multi-processor threading.

-Skater

[This message has been edited by Skater (edited March 22, 2001).]

#661155 - 03/22/01 11:31 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Hmm.. I ran over Ruskie troops...

RB

#661156 - 03/22/01 11:45 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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I was gonna comment on that too...

I ran over troops with the jeep (yes, on purpose) and the other guys proceded to light me and the jeep up in response.

-Skater

#661157 - 03/23/01 12:16 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Ok, here is something else I tried. In another thread it was talked about that you can go back with the truck and run over the T-72 troopers before they get in and attack (you also have to kill the troops there too).

Well, I also decided that when the tanks attack I would stay inside a house and wait for them to drive by. It seems that some my troops came back and killed 2 T-72's. So it is possible to kill them. I then used an RPG to kill another (at least he was not moving). I then heard the helicopter and my squad leader was demanding I return.

Unfortunately I was killed by something while I was running back so I don't know what happens after that.

The best part of that mission was that my 60 gunner was killed so I picked up his wepaon and ammo and while I was hiding in the small house I mowed down Ruskie troops as they ran by a few foot in front of me.. I got screen shots.

RB

#661158 - 03/23/01 11:24 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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It seems that in cadet mode the enemy troops have to be shot three times, while in veteran mode I easily shot the first soldier first with two, and then later when I was aiming higher he died after the first shot.

It looks like the hit-point structure is a little more complicated than it seemed at first. Didn't check it out on T72s, though...

I just can't hit him from behind as he goes past me too fast...


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#661159 - 03/23/01 11:29 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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I think it would be very nice if they would release another mission DEMO... 2 months on this pretty short mission will seem like forever...


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#661160 - 03/23/01 11:38 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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One more thing...
It would be great if they make some improvements (especially with the bullet damage on soft vehicles and houses and the sounds of bullets ricocheting of the same)...

I noticed that the AT soldiers will have the AT-4 and LAW-80, at least the makers said so... (hmmm... the LAW-80 is British product, but every other weapon is US) My point is that these weapons perform very similar and can't destroy the enemy tank upfront and you can only use it at extreme close range... They could put up some LR weapon, like Dragon - high power and guidance; it would make the life of our squad a lot... hmmm... more likely to be prolonged, I guess...

Sorry about the three posts in a row...


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#661161 - 03/23/01 12:56 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Quote:
Originally posted by ijozic:
I think it would be very nice if they would release another mission DEMO... 2 months on this pretty short mission will seem like forever...


There is a multiplayer demo coming soon.


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#661162 - 03/23/01 01:28 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Quote:
Originally posted by ijozic:
I noticed that the AT soldiers will have the AT-4 and LAW-80, at least the makers said so...


Yes, well, here's another place where they've gotten confused. They don't seem to realize that the M2/M3 Carl Gustaf and M136 AT-4 are two different weapons. Also, the Carl Gustaf in the game appears to be guided (I got the lock diamond when using it) when in fact it is merely a bazooka-style rocket.

A full-fledged ATGM wouldn't have a lot of purpose in a game where vehicles can't engage you beyond 300m and none of the light AT weapons suffer from troublesome things like physics (notice how the RPG flies straight and level until it hits something) I doubt they'd model them very well anyway, if they were in the game...probably just use the same right-click-to-lock that they do for everything else

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#661163 - 03/23/01 01:47 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Actually, I found a little hack, and they do model both the M2 Carl Gustav and the AT4.. However, it's a -russian- AT4 And they both lock-on (Pretty impressive for a recoiless gun). At one point I had to arc the Carl Gutav round up to avoid a ridge just in front of me (I was deviating from the mission plan just to test a few things), and the round arcs in the air and homes right in on the T72. Right..

And I don't see any of the "brilliant" AI that everyone else has been talking about. I fire a long-range shot into a group of soldiers, and they all ran around in circles (Except for any that had a shot pass within a set distance of them, who dropped to the ground). I started firing at one group of soldiers, taking them out (About 5 there), upon which their buddies, about 30-40 soldiers some 300 yards away from them, started coming in response to the sound.. One at a time, about 100 yards apart... So I got to pick them off one by one as they came towards me. And I've never really seen the enemy use more cover than "get prone". Many times I've seen them come out from cover, run all the way across the street, then turn around and stand there as they aim at me (Naturally, they are dead well before they shoot). Pretty much the typical FPS AI, nothing new...

------------------
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"Drive defensively -- buy a tank."

#661164 - 03/23/01 03:30 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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actually in Cadet mode you can get single shot kills. I crept up on a sentry and took him with one round to the head from my m16 (single shot mode).

Also, I found the AT modelling pretty good.

Using a scavenged RPG9 I took out the bmp and both tanks. I hit the bmp while it was moving into position, one hit kill. Then, I hit the dirt and crawled behind the two tanks, fired into the rear compartment of one and then got up and ran like hell behind some buildings. Came back from a different angle and repeated this a few times, until they were smoldering heaps.


The word "Martyr" is just a fancy name for "crappy fighter".
#661165 - 03/23/01 04:30 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Morrison:

Also, I found the AT modelling pretty good.

Using a scavenged RPG9 I took out the bmp and both tanks. I hit the bmp while it was moving into position, one hit kill. Then, I hit the dirt and crawled behind the two tanks, fired into the rear compartment of one and then got up and ran like hell behind some buildings. Came back from a different angle and repeated this a few times, until they were smoldering heaps.


You can also kill tanks with frag grenades. Probably with the M-16 too. It doesn't matter where you hit them.

Still, could be a cool game, kinda like a modern H&D. Just don't expect any realism.

#661166 - 03/23/01 05:27 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Any realism?

Ummm... let's now discuss for the next 6 weeks what "realism" in a game is...

I see Phoenix is on his "negative" kick yet again. Maybe he should try veteran mode so the enemy is not so easy to kill (I still find them to be easy kills when they act like momo's, but they also have moments of brilliance).

R6/RS has some of the worst AI in history! They either suck or they are DEAD-ON ACCURATE.

DF has some crappy AI too. But at least it doesn't have that laser accuracy of RS.

H&D has good AI at times.. but no better than OPFL. So I don't know what Phoenix is talking about. The two dragon boys (Mekh and Phoenix) should start their own discussion... maybe I will go in there and we can argue the validity of fire breathing dragons.

RB

#661167 - 03/24/01 01:03 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kharan:
You can also kill tanks with frag grenades. Probably with the M-16 too. It doesn't matter where you hit them.

Still, could be a cool game, kinda like a modern H&D. Just don't expect any realism.


So you might be able to kill a tank with a rifle or frag grenade in the game - I don't see that as being unrealstic since realistically you wouldn't try that in real life.

There are some things in any game that will have to be a compromise. If those compromises are controlled by the idealogy of "The player wouldn't do this in real life" then I really don't see a problem with it.

Pete

#661168 - 03/24/01 02:46 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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I've downloaded this demo and can see where all the gushing praise is coming from, it really is quite remarkable.

I only have a 56k modem and the initial download was corrupt but the second attempt was fine, I think I deserve a medal for my patience

Also noticed some people complaining about a couple of minor points, and as Pete has pointed out, why do these things? it reminds me of a ridiculous argument on usenet about B17II where some user had attempted to put (admittedly not the best) flight model into a loop and finally succeeded...I just wouldn't waste my time trying to do something like this Ironically someone then posted data to say that a B17 actually managed this...but I digress.

If this game is as good as the demo hints, and the Multiplayer works at least as good as RS/UO (hopefully much better for us 56k types) then this will be something special indeed.

MD

#661169 - 03/24/01 07:01 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Razorback:
Maybe he should try veteran mode so the enemy is not so easy to kill


It wasn't the number of shots that it took to kill them, it's how much they act like morons at time. I didn't say the AI was worse than the other games you mentioned, but it certainly isn't better.

And as for the person who commented that the AT modeling seemed "pretty good".. Real RPGs don't fly in a perfectly straight line, and -would- have killed those T72s with the first round to their rear.

Overall, I'm really not impressed. Flashpoint seems to have the same simple-minded gameplay and low-realism of other games already several years old, and seems to have only concentrated on getting the graphics to look better rather than improving the meat of it. It's a great concept, but the execution is lacking.

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"Drive defensively -- buy a tank."

#661170 - 03/24/01 01:23 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Pygmy makes a great point. Same one I used to make about the B-17 II momo's looping the buff.. WHY?

Phoenix, II agree the AI can do some strange things and that the RPG's don't act realistically but this is NOT supposed to be hyper-realistic or even slightly realistic. We were told before the demo was released that this would be geared towards the gaming crowd. I am judging it on THAT factor.

As a "game" it is a lot of fun. It is a great distraction until Al Delaney finishes Steel Beasts 2.

RB

#661171 - 03/24/01 10:44 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Looking at it from a pure game stance, Tribes 2 will do the vehicles better (Control etc...) and Venom is better in every other way. The only thing I thought Op FP had going for it was the realism aspect of not being sci-fi. If this thing doesn't have great multiplay I worry about how well it is going to do. It has some very cool aspects but I can't say that I see any of the cool AI that people keep talking about. All I see is little guys running the same pre-set tracks and shooting at you (badly) if they see you.

The problems I see with the AI include enemy and my guys running right by each other only about 5 feet apart and not fighting at all. My ability to walk right up on enemy who are laying down while I take pot shots at them, they don't bother to turn around until I hit them with a bullet. Tanks knowing that I am in a building even if they can't see me, and my ablity to run right up to tanks and run around them until it decided that I am no longer a threat to it. If you want to try kill a tank with grenades, sneak up behind it and make sure your grenades land on its front half. It will not turn around to kill you.

I hope the control and AI are the last 15% that need to be completed. For right now the game looks just way to easy to win and the control and AI seem not good enough IMO.

Z


Z
#661172 - 03/25/01 10:32 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Well.. whatever you may be seeing is wrong.. I have played the same mission 30 times or more and the AI does NOT do the same thing every time.

The last time I played my squad went into the small village and then proceeded to the woods on the right and flanked the enemy, instead of attacking them head-on.

Other times I have noticed that the enemy attacks in full force at the beginning while other times they seem to hang back.

I think people who dislike this game and who knock the AI are doing so because they WANT to dislike it.

Some people hate Elvis because everyone else loves him... etc etc etc.

It's a sickness, some people need to get help.

RB

#661173 - 03/25/01 12:14 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Glad to know you know what I am seeing. You have played the demo 30 times? Well I have done it about 10 times that many times, note that I didn't come and comment on this demo right off. I waited until I had given it a very good going through. The AI seem to have a few different set-ups that they use but they are all so close that I can run the exact same path each time and beat the mission every time.

It has nothing to do with me not wanting to like this one, I have wanted it for some time. I may be the helo guy around here but Tactical FPS are the games that I play and enjoy the most. I will get this game no matter what I see in the demo, I just hope the full thing has more to offer then what I see in the demo, it is just to easy.

Then again I wouldn't trade the lightning fast AI in the R6 series for anything because it would be too easy then as well.

------------------
Don't think of it as being outnumbered,think of it as having a wide target selection.
Z
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zerog@simhq.com


Z
#661174 - 03/25/01 04:36 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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I think what we're seeing here, and any negative comments are a result of the overhype we are giving this demo.
I still think it's outstanding, but perhaps we should all step back and lets see what develops, going by what I've read so far if the final product is anything less than 100% perfect in all areas, people are going to be pretty p*ssed off.

In my experience if anything is discussed and found to be positive, then you will get detractors as well...helps balance things out I guess nothings perfect and no software , especially a first person shooter ever will be, AI is possibly the hardest of all things to model these days with eye candy probably being the easiest.

I've seen howling errors with the AI in this demo, but I can live with it, if it improves in the final product ..then so much the better, what I do hope the final product has is sharp multiplay code, then the AI will be a moot point because I will be playing with my friends...who are extremely unpredictable in their actions (I know some of them will be reading this)

Anyway, I see both sides of the coin here, and if we overhype this one and it fails to deliver...well that would be a real shame.

Ramble over

MD

#661175 - 03/25/01 05:45 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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I find the demo to be a blast personally.

As for the 'realism' stuff. I don't think we really want a totally realistic game from this. There is a fine line between keeping the game fun and making it a definitive tactical game. There are some things that could be better, that is for sure.

The rush that the troops use is not very accurate and wouldn't work well in real life. I would like to see a bounding overwatch style of advance with the troops instead of the pell mell run to battle that there is now. The way the troops attack now would be deadly to real troops. To do it right sure would slow the game down though. That isn't bad but the shooter fans might get bored with it. Its definatly a compromise.

Lets remember that this is a demo of an unfinished game and we should be offering suggestions, not criticism of what isn't done yet. It may be that this is representative of the final product-it could be that they released something so we could get a taste of what to expect. Either way, serious criticism should wait until the final product is released. I have played enough demos to know that what you see in a demonstration is often a lot different than the final product.



------------------
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Feature Editor, SimHQ.com
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The artist formerly known as SimHq Tom Cofield
#661176 - 03/25/01 08:20 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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You complain about realism, but I have yet to hear anyone point out that a direct Warsaw Pact/NATO conflict (on remote islands) never occured in 1985

It's a good game.

#661177 - 03/25/01 09:34 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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And no one has ever stated it was a SIM. It is a game. better than Half-Life FLF or TFC.. or Quake 3 etc.

It will be loved by people who play DF3, TFC, FLF and other team oriented combat games. It is FUN. As I have stated before, if it is a realistic SIM you want then Steel Beasts is awesome.. and SB2 will probably rock the universe.

RB

#661178 - 03/25/01 11:19 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Razorback:
and SB2 will probably rock the universe.

RB


I agreed completely until you said that. Probably is incorrect. Steel Beasts II WILL Rock the Universe

~Rookie

#661179 - 03/25/01 11:24 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Razorback:
And no one has ever stated it was a SIM. It is a game. better than Half-Life FLF or TFC.. or Quake 3 etc.

RB


Maybe it will be better then those games but I still think that it might have some competition from Tribes 2 and Venom. Every shooter fan I know is holding out for T2, I doubt any other game will come close in the multiplayer aspect to it. The Venom demo did the tactical part better then the OP FP demo does. Venoms AI was much better and shooter fans will be drawn to the cool weapons it has to offer. The draw that OP FP has is the real weapons etc.. It doesn't make use of these very well so the big draw is pretty much lost. I am just trying to find out what it is that will seperate it from the others and make it a big seller so that we will get patches and support..


------------------
Don't think of it as being outnumbered,think of it as having a wide target selection.
Z
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Z
#661180 - 03/25/01 11:48 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Zerog, I read your comments and I must say, they were at odds with my experiences.

>The problems I see with the AI include
>enemy and my guys running right by each
>other only about 5 feet apart and not
>fighting at all.

I have seen this, but I think it is pretty rare. Usually the two sides duke it out at reasonably accurate distances of about 50-100 meters, and it is only very rarely that I have seen an enemy soldier end up passing by my troops, and my troops ignore them. Most of the time an enemy is shot dead as they try to walk by. I *HAVE* seen the enemy run by me while I was prone and not firing, this is realistically modelling human behaviour. If I'm not moving, and am still and prone, chances are you won't see me.

>My ability to walk right
>up on enemy who are laying down while I
>take pot shots at them, they don't bother
>to turn around until I hit them with a
>bullet.

This I have never seen. Anytime I shoot at *ANY* target the nearby enemies immediately open up on my position, even if they can't see me exactly they lay down suppressive fire, even if I miss my shot.

I recall flanking a MG'er and a soldier, as they ran by, I fired a single shot at the front soldier, mr. MG dropped to the ground fumbling to fire at me, soldier kept running at me and began firing from the hip. I managed to drop him, but mr. MG cut me in half with his PK.

>Tanks knowing that I am in a
>building even if they can't see me, and my
>ablity to run right up to tanks and run
>around them until it decided that I am no
>longer a threat to it.

Admittedly I have never tried running in circles around a tank, especially given that the tanks usually have infantry nearby. However, the first complaint, of them being able to *magically* know your whereabouts is I think misplaced. I have had the tanks put a round into a building I am in, but only after I do something to give away my position. Say, fire a rocket, throw a grenade or fire my gun. Even at a soldier, and not the tank. On one occaison I was shot by the tank's main gun without provocation, but I was standing easily visible in the window.

>If you want to try
>kill a tank with grenades, sneak up behind
>it and make sure your grenades land on its
>front half. It will not turn around to kill
>you.

Never tried grenades (actually I did once, and recieved a round from the main gun for my troubles), but I can say that the tanks do turn their guns to face you. I had a tank chase me around for about 2 minutes, every turn I made the turret (and accompanying fire) followed.

Also, having read the complaints about the RPG, I have seen the RPG go off course, and I have seen the RPG kill a t72 first shot. I have also seen the missile fly straight as an arrow and take three or four shots to kill. Just as in real life whether the round flies straight or not, and whether the shot kills or not is dependent mainly on luck. Sometimes a rear shot would kill in real life, sometimes it wouldn't. I think the RPG was modelled pretty accurately, complaints about 'locking on' notwithstanding.

So, frankly


The word "Martyr" is just a fancy name for "crappy fighter".
#661181 - 03/26/01 05:40 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix:
And as for the person who commented that the AT modeling seemed "pretty good".. Real RPGs don't fly in a perfectly straight line, and -would- have killed those T72s with the first round to their rear.


A real RPG might have killed a T72 with a single round to the rear. You still need a relatively flat angle of obliquity to have a HEAT type warhead penetrate armor, even the "thinner" armor in the rear of a tank.

Have you ever shot an man packed anti-tank round before? Everyone I've shot and seen shot pretty much travel in a straight line. I'm not sure I'm following your train of thought here - why doesn't an RPG fly straight out of the tube?

Pete

#661182 - 03/26/01 05:41 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Quote:

Sometimes a rear shot would kill in real life, sometimes it wouldn't.


Change that to most of the time it would kill, and very occasionally it wouldn't, and it would be accurate. An RPG7 can penetrate about twice the armor a T72BV has on the rear of its turret and hull. Assuming a simple, direct hit right on the rear compartment, that tank will be dead. At the very least (If the crew is extremely lucky) the engine will be destroyed and the tank disabled. Considering the layout of the ammo and fuel storage in the T72, it would also be extremely likely to start a fire inside the tank, if not ignite an immediate explosion.

An RPG7 is a serious threat to an M1A2-SEP at the rear, much less a tank like the T72BV.

------------------
Phoenix, lava dragon
"Drive defensively -- buy a tank."

#661183 - 03/26/01 05:13 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Ok... I have killed a T-72 in OPFL with one shot from a RPG.

I forget Phoenix... which branch of service where you in? And what was your function in the military? I'm just trying to figure out how come you know so much more than other men who have actually been there.

RB

#661184 - 03/26/01 05:18 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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I played the new ambush mission last night, and have come to be very impressed with the AT modelling.

My two AT guys, one with a law, one with a Carl Gustav both concealed and firing from behind at two t72's and a BMP, usually killed the t72's in two hits or less. On occaison a single, non-kill would disable the tank and the crew would hop out.

Hits on trucks are very fatal (I saved my LAW rockets for the trucks). BMPs are a one hit kill almost without exception (yes, I have seen exceptions) and near misses can also kill, but rarely.

Altogether I was pretty impressed. BTW:, best strategy for the new mission appeared to be to position your infantry out of sight of the road, AT teams spread out on the ridge under cover. Wait until the tanks go by, then hit the front one with both AT teams, then hit the rear as he tries to bring his gun to bear. You can personally see to the BMP. The trucks you can also deal with.


The word "Martyr" is just a fancy name for "crappy fighter".
#661185 - 03/26/01 10:12 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Well I like this mission quite a bit.. I found the best way to do things is to leave all my troops that have no AT weapons behind and take the other teams up on to the big hill. I target the tanks with my AT teams but have them on hold. I wait until the tanks are out of my LOS and hit the first truck with the LAW, I then tell the AT teams to engauge while I take out the BMP and last truck. This kills all of that stuff and keeps my team intact.

------------------
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Z
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Z
#661186 - 03/26/01 11:16 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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I got a question about these new missions being made. Everytime I try to load I get an error saying that the mission can't be load, what am I doing wrong here???

Any help would be appriciated.

Thanks!

#661187 - 03/27/01 12:26 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Just hit ENTER when you try to start the mission and you will get in (I think you get the same if you hit ESC).

I was getting the same thing but then I just hit ENTER and the mission started.

RB

#661188 - 03/27/01 05:31 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Razorback:
I'm just trying to figure out how come you know so much more than other men who have actually been there


Razor, try actually using a bit of common sense and not attack someone based of something they never even claimed, okay?

I've never claimed to be in the military (I havn't), and I've never claimed to know more than people that have been there (I'm pretty sure I don't), and I'd think you could use a bit of common sense to not criticize someone for doing something that they did not do. I do, however, know enough to listen to what they say, and I don't think any real-world tanker would agree that a T72BV just about always takes two RPGs to the rear to kill. If you doubt that, you can ask someone who WOULD know, like Volcano or Snake. I'm sure they'd be glad to inform you.

------------------
Phoenix, lava dragon
"Drive defensively -- buy a tank."

#661189 - 03/27/01 06:21 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix:
...I don't think any real-world tanker would agree that a T72BV just about always takes two RPGs to the rear to kill. If you doubt that, you can ask someone who WOULD know, like Volcano or Snake. I'm sure they'd be glad to inform you.


Never said just about always - you read that into my statements. The truth about any HEAT round is that its effectiveness is based on armor composition, obliquity angle of the warhead vs. armor slope, and other barriers on the tank to cause the rocket to detonate early.

Just because an RPG7 is rated to penetrate from under 300cm to 600cm (depending on type)of armor, and the rear armor of a T72 is definitely much less (cannot find a reference to it now, but we'll agree that even an early RPG7 has enough potential to tear through the rear of a T72), doesn't mean the numbers tell the entire story.

To get the effective numbers, you need to factor in these other variables to see what will happen. You are correct that it's likely to damage the vehicle, and that the rear is the most vulnerable spot for a rocket attack, but you shouldn't assume that even the majority of times a rocket hit in the rear of any tank will produce a kill. Most RPG's are easy to defeat with the simple use of chicken wire to cause the rocket to explode several inches away from the tank, effectively scorching the armor. A 2nd shot to the same area would at least hit armor, with a possibility for a kill or mobility kill. Study the offensive tactics used by the Mujihadeen and the defensive tactics used by the Sovs during the war in Afganistan to see what I mean.

Considering I was an infantry squad leader, I might know a bit of what I'm talking about. The biggest thing I'll say about it was as a grunt, we never really wanted to dick with tanks anyway - the rockets were for the APVs and IFVs, and fortified positions. Leave the big targets for the big guns

Pete

#661190 - 03/27/01 06:38 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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I found the best tactic in that mission was to hide my team up the up, out under cover of trees and the ridgeline, with my AT teams placed with one up high and from behind (invisible from the front because of the ridge), and one to the right, behind the treeline. Then, plant the mines on the road where the kill zone will be. Let the t72's running in front hit the mines (bye bye T72), you'll get one for sure, maybe two from the mines. Then, group both AT teams at the remaining BMP or BMP and T72 (use both at the t72 if it still is around, because its the most dangerous, and you can kill the BMP yourself), then target the trucks. Even if the men are disembarking from the trucks a LAW rocket will kill most of them from the explosion.

But the mines and position of the AT teams is the key.


The word "Martyr" is just a fancy name for "crappy fighter".
#661191 - 03/27/01 08:38 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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one of the things I wish i could be able to do (or maybe I am missing it) is to be able to assign targets without them engaging. I tell the troops to go weapon hold and then assign targets to the troops when they come across the hill...but there is always one firing off their weapons before I want them to.

Also, it seems that it is way easier playing AmbushII as the Soviets than the US.

LightStorm demo is a bit frustrating because I will pick most of the guys off, but there is usually one or two that run, and I can never find them. I *hate* missions that force you to kill each and every enemy for it to be a success :P

#661192 - 03/27/01 08:57 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Ok.. I'm going to try and use common sense...

Phoenix, you often throw around stats and ideas about things military and then make statements about realism factors etc.. I just figured that you must be an expert, or former military to have such confidence in your opinion. Same goes for Mekh.

I am really impressed with your knowledge and experience with all things military and I wish I had the same confidence in my knowledge to discuss realism with former and current military. I'm not just talking about this discussion but the many in which you have offered your opinion.

Now that's just common sense on my part, I'm sure your common sense is much better than mine, but then I am just a humble bloke with very little knowledge of anything to offer the sim community.

RB

#661193 - 03/27/01 09:34 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Pygmy - SimHQ:
Never said just about always - you read that into my statements.


Never said you did. The "just about always" comment was regarding my observations in-game. I've only seen a T72 take two hits and not be destroyed on two occasions, both of which were while I was crewing it.

Also, there clearly were't any special circumstances to the hit, such as ERA, obstructions (Like that chicken wire), or glancing hits. They were square-on, center, rear hits.

And Razor, can it with the sarcasm and personal attacks. The only things I "claim" to know are the ones that I either do know, from experience, or that I have gathered enough information to have a very strong reason to believe, such as from people who actually do the stuff (Like in this case). In this case, I'd take the information I've gathered from -several- real-world tankers over your opinion, especially since you don't seem to be presenting either experience or information.

------------------
Phoenix, lava dragon
"Drive defensively -- buy a tank."

#661194 - 03/27/01 04:44 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Who is being sarcastic? I admire you greatly. Your knowledge is superior to my own.

You are my GOD!

RB

#661195 - 03/27/01 04:53 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Zamboni,

Issue a hold fire order, then group the ones you want to attack the target, wait until the target is ready to attack and then issue the target command. Both will attack simultaneously.

ambush II is way easier as the US, if you do it right.


The word "Martyr" is just a fancy name for "crappy fighter".
#661196 - 03/27/01 05:05 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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The way I wiped out the Ruskies was by putting my entire squad on the top of the big hill and placing msyelf on the lower crest directly facing the convoy.

When my squad attacked it took out one T-72, I then took out another. I then took out a BMP and a truck. The rest is a blur but I know the entire thing took 21 minutes. I came about 2 inches from getting killed at least a half-dozen times and I killed 2 MG's who had stopped to shoot at my peeps.. and made the mistake of doing so 5 feet from my position.

This fargin game is intense!

RB

#661197 - 03/27/01 06:53 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix:
Never said you did. The "just about always" comment was regarding my observations in-game. I've only seen a T72 take two hits and not be destroyed on two occasions, both of which were while I was crewing it.



Gotcha! Makes sense to me.

Pete

#661198 - 03/27/01 09:40 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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If you plant the mines, then use your AT teams and yourself to blow up what's left it won't get too intense.

IF you hit the trucks before the troops can get clear they die when the LAW hits it.


The word "Martyr" is just a fancy name for "crappy fighter".
#661199 - 03/29/01 01:08 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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There were a couple of cool things I noticed, and a couple of things that are needed to be worked on from the demo. First off, I like the injury effects in the demo. Last night playing, i was shot in both legs. I tried to get up but I couldnt...I would end up back in the prone position.

Some of the problems....I called the medic when I was down and couldnt get up, but the medic didnt come. I was just left there on the field. On another run of the mission, i was injured and called out for medic, and leader told me to go to the medic. (it is hard to go to the medic IF you are incapacitated like before though). Medic fixed me up quite good when i got to him though.

Another problem...I had the machine gun, and went over to a dead soldier and picked up his RPG. I didnt have a rifle with me so it went directly to the RPG in hand. Problem is that when holding the RPG you are on a knee, and i couldnt move or get up. There as no option to put the RPG on my back so i could get up. I had to pick up the AK that was also with the dead soldier and then switch to AK, and now I was able to move.

Another nitpick is if you have both grenade and smoke grenade, you cannot select the smoke without either dropping or throwing the regular grenades.

But hey it is only a demo

-zB

#661200 - 03/29/01 04:28 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 12,334
Paul Morrison Offline
Veteran
Paul Morrison  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 12,334
Canada
If you are hit in the legs and need to get to a medic, you can crawl. To move faster when crawling, use the 'move faster' key.


The word "Martyr" is just a fancy name for "crappy fighter".
#661201 - 03/29/01 04:43 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 18,786
Razorback Offline
No one of consequence
Razorback  Offline
No one of consequence
Veteran

Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 18,786
NJ
But then you start breathing heavy and eventually it sounds like you are going to have a heart-attack.

RB

#661202 - 03/31/01 08:17 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,536
Robbster Offline
Member
Robbster  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,536
Calgary, Canada
It's better to have the medic come to you, rather than crawling to the medic.

Just select the medic's number key, then give him the move command to a location beside you, then select 'heal at medic' from the menu.

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