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#661144 - 03/22/01 12:55 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Razorback:
Disclaimer!!!!!!!!!!

Phoenix is Mekh's other personality..


I see you're as friendly as ever :P



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"Drive defensively -- buy a tank."

#661145 - 03/22/01 04:34 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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OK, I finally played the demo last night and I gotta say it... WOW!!!

I was very impressed by this one.

Great immersion factor.

I like the heavy attention to detail.

For example: I crashed the jeep a little just to see what would happen. I broke the front windscreen and noticed that when I got out of the jeep, I was bleeding. Very nice.

I put a round through the door by accident when I was getting in the jeep, it went through the door, and hit the LT in the leg. He was bleeding inside the jeep and out, but did not seem to notice he was hit until after he exited the jeep. Nice, small flaw there, but this is an 85% complete demo. I hope they fix that.

I noticed that everything can be picked up, including the weapons of the enemy, but I think that the standard ammo load is a little low for an assault like the one in the demo.

I like how cover and concealment actually works, and the bad guys do not stick out like a thumb. Very hard to see at range, and sometimes you only see the small muzzle flash and puff of smoke when they are firing at you. Alsdo, they are not inhumanly accurate, and they have a sophisticated AI that allows them to make use of cover and concealment where possible, and return fire will suppress them. They don't act like bullet proof supermen that cannot die. You shoot at them and they will try to not get hit. Very nice.

Grenades work pretty realistically as well, producing both close range casualties as well as suppression results at slightly longer ranges. Cool.

So far I like it a lot, although there are a few gameplay and stability issues to resolve. But hey, this is basically a working demo of a product in beta. I think it works great for that level of completion.

Sounds need to be worked on though. You should have much better sound cues, as you would in the real world.

Overall, I would say very nicely done so far. I'll be buying this one.

-Skater

#661146 - 03/22/01 07:10 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Skater, when the UAZ came into the little village, I opened up at the windshield. It stopped, and an RPG guy hopped out of the back and started to run. After I got him, I went over to the UAZ--two dead guys in the front seats slumped over with shattered windows in front of them--what detail!
The Jedi Master


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#661147 - 03/22/01 07:34 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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I got one even better.. but similar.

I was on top of the hill overlooking the battle, mostly just watching my guys when it came rolling towards the small village. I single fired into the vehicle from over 100 meters. When I finally got down to it 2 guys were dead in the vehicle and one dead right outside of it.

Too cool.

RB

#661148 - 03/22/01 07:57 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Am I getting this right? A tank with a hit point system? It's bad enough when everybody insists on using it with the PBI (I guarantee you that if I shoot any of YOU through the chest two times with an M16, you'll be very dead. Doesn't take three hits), but that appears to be par for the course these days. (Don't pay me no never mind, though, I've hated hit point systems ever since D&D was invented, it's the most unrealistic bull I've ever heard of). But for a tank????????????????? Whatever the hell happened to trying to hit it? When you hit a tank with an RPG, it either kills it or it doesn't. And it doesn't depend on no "hitpoints", if you'll pardon my use of the double negative, it's only got to do with where you hit, if at all...

So I suppose that if you hit the T-72 a sufficient number of times with the M-16, you'll kill it as well? Granted, given the "damage roll" for an M-16 compared with an RPG, you might be standing around all day firing away at it, but eventually it WILL blow up, I guess... We *are* using a fantastic "hit point" system to model damage here, after all, who cares about reality...

And it showed so much potential...

Misha

#661149 - 03/22/01 08:42 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Wow... angry about a demo much?

I don't like hit points either, but if you want realism in a massive combat area like this one then you are going to have to wait for Steel Beasts 2. I think that will have everything you want (and I want).

RB

#661150 - 03/22/01 09:00 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Nahhhh.... LOL I think it's mainly a case of massive disappointment. Once in a while, something that sounds like a truly innovative and great idea comes along and then, when it starts hitting the market, it turns out that it's yet another case of "been there, seen that, done it in my sleep"... But at least they had the decency of slipping out a demo first, so that you wouldn't have to part with any hard-earned cash to find out that such was the case

And I'm sure that a huge number of people will find it to be better than sliced cheese and that's fine, to each his own, it's just that I personally lose every last bit of "immersive feeling" the moment I find a hit point system in action. In my opinion, if you're hit in the head, you're dead, in the heart, you're dead etc. It doesn't make one whit of a diff how much training you have, a 7.62mm through the skull kills ya any old time. And there is no such thing as "degrees of damage" with a hollow shaped charge. Either it kills the vehicle or it doesn't.

So I guess I'll just lean back and wait again. Surely some day the right thing will come along. It just wasn't this time either...

Misha

#661151 - 03/22/01 09:29 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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I can't believe I'm hearing negative comments on this game (not suggestions for the things that should be improved)...

I mean, to say that this masterpiece (there wasn't a game like this ever made - you don't make important decisions, you are just a grunt) is worse than H&D (which was interesting because it was WWII and there wasn't and 'till the Medal of Honour:Allied Assault comes out still isn't a better game; the flaws and bugs irritated me so much that the game was unplayable to me after a certain amount of time invested in it) is just being childish and not serious at all (OK, let's call it the way we should - dumb like hell)...
Anyway, if they don't like it they should stick to what ever it is they like and stop showing off - like 'everyone like it, so we, the 'real experts' who are above common mortal gamers, see that this is just another bad game and we are so call that we can round-up all it's flaws and thus the game sucks... Who cares it's something new and best FPS yet... Everyone likes it so we would not...'
It's PATHETIC!

P.S. BIS, I salute you and please don't mess up what we have seen so far and make our next two-month waiting worth while in every way... Just so much, please...


i386DX40@42 MHz w/i387 CP, 4 MB RAM (8*512 kB), Trident 8900C 1 MB w/16-bit RAMDAC ISA, Quantum 340 MB UDMA33, SoundBlaster 16, DOS 6.22 w/QEMM + Win3.11CE, Quickshot 1 btn 2 axis gameport joystick, Numpad as hat-switch. 2 FPH on a good day, 1 FPH average.
#661152 - 03/22/01 09:43 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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The only thing I would like to see is the capability of a NON hit point based system. Like an ELITE level or something.

Other than that I love it.

I will probably play in games where vehicles are not used. I just want to have a squad based combat game... maybe with some nice arty.

RB

#661153 - 03/22/01 10:36 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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I've been toying around with the demo since Tuesday night. All I can say is WOW!

Some things that I have noticed:

-AI is very good, even for an 85% finished product.
-LOS is modeled well. If you hide in bushes or heavy foliage you won't be seen as long as you stay put and don't shoot.
-Tanks take two RPG hits to take out, from about 50m. BMPs take a sinlge shot
-Driving the Soviet truck is fun, although running over enemy troops doesn't work...sigh...
-Enemy tank crews bail out if their tank becomes disabled. Kinda funny to watch them. They carry AKSUs...great for short range work

Some things that I'd like for the developers to tweak:
-If you gunfire hits house walls, I'd like to see pock marks and visual damage. Same thing with armored and non-armored vehicles.
-Getting hit in the leg should slow you down...
-Bounding overwatch (cover fire) should be implemented. I can't stand seeing my squad recklessly charging into a gun fight...not realistic...but then again its not suppossed to simulate a REAL environment.
-Destroyed vehicles should stay smoldering for longer periods of time.
-I'd like to hear both friendly and enemy troops scream out in pain when they're hit. Also, could we have them call out for a medic...? Make it more interesting.
-Body parts should fly

#661154 - 03/22/01 11:18 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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I would also like to see relative hardness of cover modeled.

Example, hide behind a boulder, and there is not much chance of a round penetrating and injuring you. Hide in a wood and plaster structure, and high powered assault rifle fire WILL penetrate with ease, and the round will retain enough energy to cause injury and death.

I do not want to see any armored vehicles able to be destroyed by rifle fire. I would like to see the modeling of armor piercing rounds able to penetrate one side of a BMP and do damage to occupants from inside of effective weapons range (for that target type, 100-150 meters).

I would like to see "channeling" modeled.

Example: In an urban setting, hug the walls, and you are guaranteed to catch a bullet, as rounds fired tend to "channel" down and ride the walls.

This game has A LOT of potential, and it can be made SO MUCH better. Potetial for different eras and user mods is HUGE. I hope they open up the architecture to allow for that.

I am hooked. We are already playing with it after hours at work. I would really like to see a working Windows 2000 version of the demo with multi-processor threading.

-Skater

[This message has been edited by Skater (edited March 22, 2001).]

#661155 - 03/22/01 11:31 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Hmm.. I ran over Ruskie troops...

RB

#661156 - 03/22/01 11:45 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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I was gonna comment on that too...

I ran over troops with the jeep (yes, on purpose) and the other guys proceded to light me and the jeep up in response.

-Skater

#661157 - 03/23/01 12:16 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Ok, here is something else I tried. In another thread it was talked about that you can go back with the truck and run over the T-72 troopers before they get in and attack (you also have to kill the troops there too).

Well, I also decided that when the tanks attack I would stay inside a house and wait for them to drive by. It seems that some my troops came back and killed 2 T-72's. So it is possible to kill them. I then used an RPG to kill another (at least he was not moving). I then heard the helicopter and my squad leader was demanding I return.

Unfortunately I was killed by something while I was running back so I don't know what happens after that.

The best part of that mission was that my 60 gunner was killed so I picked up his wepaon and ammo and while I was hiding in the small house I mowed down Ruskie troops as they ran by a few foot in front of me.. I got screen shots.

RB

#661158 - 03/23/01 11:24 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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It seems that in cadet mode the enemy troops have to be shot three times, while in veteran mode I easily shot the first soldier first with two, and then later when I was aiming higher he died after the first shot.

It looks like the hit-point structure is a little more complicated than it seemed at first. Didn't check it out on T72s, though...

I just can't hit him from behind as he goes past me too fast...


i386DX40@42 MHz w/i387 CP, 4 MB RAM (8*512 kB), Trident 8900C 1 MB w/16-bit RAMDAC ISA, Quantum 340 MB UDMA33, SoundBlaster 16, DOS 6.22 w/QEMM + Win3.11CE, Quickshot 1 btn 2 axis gameport joystick, Numpad as hat-switch. 2 FPH on a good day, 1 FPH average.
#661159 - 03/23/01 11:29 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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I think it would be very nice if they would release another mission DEMO... 2 months on this pretty short mission will seem like forever...


i386DX40@42 MHz w/i387 CP, 4 MB RAM (8*512 kB), Trident 8900C 1 MB w/16-bit RAMDAC ISA, Quantum 340 MB UDMA33, SoundBlaster 16, DOS 6.22 w/QEMM + Win3.11CE, Quickshot 1 btn 2 axis gameport joystick, Numpad as hat-switch. 2 FPH on a good day, 1 FPH average.
#661160 - 03/23/01 11:38 AM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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One more thing...
It would be great if they make some improvements (especially with the bullet damage on soft vehicles and houses and the sounds of bullets ricocheting of the same)...

I noticed that the AT soldiers will have the AT-4 and LAW-80, at least the makers said so... (hmmm... the LAW-80 is British product, but every other weapon is US) My point is that these weapons perform very similar and can't destroy the enemy tank upfront and you can only use it at extreme close range... They could put up some LR weapon, like Dragon - high power and guidance; it would make the life of our squad a lot... hmmm... more likely to be prolonged, I guess...

Sorry about the three posts in a row...


i386DX40@42 MHz w/i387 CP, 4 MB RAM (8*512 kB), Trident 8900C 1 MB w/16-bit RAMDAC ISA, Quantum 340 MB UDMA33, SoundBlaster 16, DOS 6.22 w/QEMM + Win3.11CE, Quickshot 1 btn 2 axis gameport joystick, Numpad as hat-switch. 2 FPH on a good day, 1 FPH average.
#661161 - 03/23/01 12:56 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  
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Quote:
Originally posted by ijozic:
I think it would be very nice if they would release another mission DEMO... 2 months on this pretty short mission will seem like forever...


There is a multiplayer demo coming soon.


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#661162 - 03/23/01 01:28 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Quote:
Originally posted by ijozic:
I noticed that the AT soldiers will have the AT-4 and LAW-80, at least the makers said so...


Yes, well, here's another place where they've gotten confused. They don't seem to realize that the M2/M3 Carl Gustaf and M136 AT-4 are two different weapons. Also, the Carl Gustaf in the game appears to be guided (I got the lock diamond when using it) when in fact it is merely a bazooka-style rocket.

A full-fledged ATGM wouldn't have a lot of purpose in a game where vehicles can't engage you beyond 300m and none of the light AT weapons suffer from troublesome things like physics (notice how the RPG flies straight and level until it hits something) I doubt they'd model them very well anyway, if they were in the game...probably just use the same right-click-to-lock that they do for everything else

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-Mekhazzio Sssth'rhee, Magedragon at large

#661163 - 03/23/01 01:47 PM Re: OPERATION FLASHPOINT DEMO OUT  

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Actually, I found a little hack, and they do model both the M2 Carl Gustav and the AT4.. However, it's a -russian- AT4 And they both lock-on (Pretty impressive for a recoiless gun). At one point I had to arc the Carl Gutav round up to avoid a ridge just in front of me (I was deviating from the mission plan just to test a few things), and the round arcs in the air and homes right in on the T72. Right..

And I don't see any of the "brilliant" AI that everyone else has been talking about. I fire a long-range shot into a group of soldiers, and they all ran around in circles (Except for any that had a shot pass within a set distance of them, who dropped to the ground). I started firing at one group of soldiers, taking them out (About 5 there), upon which their buddies, about 30-40 soldiers some 300 yards away from them, started coming in response to the sound.. One at a time, about 100 yards apart... So I got to pick them off one by one as they came towards me. And I've never really seen the enemy use more cover than "get prone". Many times I've seen them come out from cover, run all the way across the street, then turn around and stand there as they aim at me (Naturally, they are dead well before they shoot). Pretty much the typical FPS AI, nothing new...

------------------
Phoenix, lava dragon
"Drive defensively -- buy a tank."

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