Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#659294 - 07/23/02 02:38 AM Dogfighting- What's your tactic?  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


I was wondering- what tactics do you all like to try to "open" with? Flying a clean merge, do you have particular move you use. or do you see what the other guy is going to do?

As far as mine- I dont have a particular move I do- just try to climb, and turn. usually I will roll left, most people are right handed and tend to pull into their body. Left roll and banking will avoid a luftberry- which I hate, because the first one who messes up dies.
So, what's your tactic?


Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#659295 - 07/23/02 09:20 AM Re: Dogfighting- What's your tactic?  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,277
Gottedammerung Offline
Senior Member
Gottedammerung  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,277
Let someone else go up and do it...Smoke my pipe, read the paper, and wave occassionally.


Happiness is a warm hum.
#659296 - 07/23/02 02:08 PM Re: Dogfighting- What's your tactic?  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


LOL, sounds good to me- throw in some pints of bitter, grill and some steakes and your on...

You don't want to get me started on- flying talk. I wasn't trained extensively in ACM. That is to say I was an a-10 driver, ground pounding is my forte. We had quite a bit in flight school, but not to the extent viper drivers or air superiorty drivers get. The hog doesn't make a great dogfighter- unless your up against a C- plane
Anyhow here are my thoughts on a "clean pass knife fight"

The first 5 seconds might not see one side or the other being shot down, but it almost always sees one side irretrievably lose angle. Once angle is lost it is most difficult to regain the advantage. The pilot with an angle (position) advantage has a huge edge. He has much improved visibility of his opponent, and can therefore anticipate defensive maneuvers and therefore maintain position. For this reason (and as most pilots are painfully aware), once an veteran opponent "saddles up" on your six, its almost impossible to shake him.

When a nose-to-nose merge commences, by definition, neither side has an angle advantage. The combatants look to immediately maneuver to gain angle. After angle has been gained, it can be built upon until enough angle is gained to obtain a on-six gun shot, or less ideally a deflection shot or snap shot. Both fighters can often begin this fight before the merge, and indeed the smart pilot will try to set up his move well before the merge.

How do you set-up before the merge?
Glad you asked....The Lead Turn: A very important merge tactic is the "Lead Turn". It is a very simple stratagem on the surface. Instead of waiting for the actual moment of the merge to begin the reverse, the pilot performing the lead turn anticipates the merge and begins to reverse before the actual merge takes place. This means while his opponent is still flying straight, he is already starting to turn - beginning the fight for an angle advantage early in the combat. How you can accomplish this is with rudder, if you fly a plane with definite rudder control, begin a high speed "crab" in the direction you intend to turn.

Ok set up my merge what do I do as the merge begins? The merge takes place as the two planes noses meet- Do not wait until the tails pass you have lost criticle time. As soon, as the none of you plane is paraell to the opponents nose FIGHTS ON! Begin your ACM's

Stacking the Deck - Ok I am going to tell you something here not many other pilots will tell you so keep this one near and dear. Establish some vertical separation before the merge. When a new pilot begins a head on merge with a veteran pilot he may notice that the veteran pilot is always trying to get underneath him! That is, the veteran is trying to establish vertical separation and will try to actually be beneath the other plane as the merge develops. The main reason is that vertical separation enhances the effect of the lead turn and allows the pilot to be more aggressive in the execution of the lead turn. The vertical separation created by the veteran in this scenario acts as sort of springboard for his attempt to gain the angle advantage. Not only can he begin the lead turn earlier, but the vertical separation established also means that as he begins to pull up into his opponent, the vertical separation he has established enhances angle gain. Yes, this goes against the he-who-is-higher-wins rule. Trust me, you want to be about 5-12 degress of angle verticle under your opponent. When both pilots know this its qutie a battle for the upper hand right from the start.

Energy fight...
A good energy fighter pilot is hard to beat. A high wingloading aircraft is the energy fighters best friend, low g- high loop will deplet the opponent of energy and leave him in a desprate stall as you put lead through the canopy. The 109 is the best energy fighter in the game, flown right you are unbeatable.

So, how do you energy fight?

Refered to as Boom and Zoom? not really Boom and Zoom is defined as extend and come in at high speeds for nose on nose shots. It works against newer pilots but vetrans will almost always match the boomers energy state at that point it a level playing feild and the better turning AC will win.
The energy fighters main goal is to wear down the better turning planes energy state, force him to extend, dive or pull away in an effort to regain energy, then come in for an on-6 shot. This takes a while to do and you have to be very good at judging the other guys energy state.
Biggest tip, think of it as chipping away at the stone instead of splitting in one wack.
The best teacher for becoming an energy fighter, hours behind the stick. No othe way to do it- its not going to magically happen by reading text.

A flying partner- get yourself a partner to fly with. Fly cleen merges and just try to gain the shot- without shooting! Just call out, "Firing solution" that means your are 99.9% sure if you pulled th trigger for a 3 second burst you'd blow big holes in his plane. Then stay on him, let him try to get way find out how many times you call "Gotcha"
Before you make an error and he gains the firing solution.

Formation flying- this is the best teacher for judgment of the other guys energy state. You are constantly trying to match another planes speed and AoA. I'm not talking abut trick flying, Just start with straight and level- then turns. Until you can fly tricks.

Hope this helps you all out.

#659297 - 07/23/02 02:53 PM Re: Dogfighting- What's your tactic?  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Very nice summary, Raven. It's always great to hear from those who've done it for real.

Just to add that the Me 109 isn't the best choice for B&Zers, because of its poor high-speed roll rate. As an energy fighter, though, no other fighter can match the 109's combination of speed and climb.

#659298 - 07/23/02 02:59 PM Re: Dogfighting- What's your tactic?  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


B&Z isn't a tactic I use, the -P-38 is the plane I'd choose if I were to fly the B&Z those nose guns fire nice a straight. The J model is a great plane.
For Air to Air I fly the 109 for air to ground I pick the grandaddy of my plane the P-47. I have to admit my love to the P-47 is deep, since I flew its, jet incarnation the A-10. I gotta find some of the remaing pics I have of the flying days...

#659299 - 07/23/02 03:50 PM Re: Dogfighting- What's your tactic?  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Great thread and great posts!

Raven, your comments about ACM, particularly with regard to the 109, are great reading.

The 109 has long been my favorite aircraft in this sim. I started out with the Pony, but after taking a beating from a 109 pilot in the old JCN (there were hardly any), I decided to see what it was all about.

Man, that guy waxed me good! The best part was, after the first pass... I never saw him again! He must have nailed me 5 or 6 times in a row.

My transition was not easy. The first couple months in the 109 were very difficult. I swore I would never fly it again several times. But after awhile, I began to understand some of her kinks. Once you figure out what she likes and doesn't like, all that agility and power become accessable.

And your remarks about her agility and elegance are right on.

She has also made me a better marksman. As far as gunnery skills go, I have never been the sharpest knife in the drawer. But when you only have 600 rounds, you learn to stop spraying and praying, and start shooting straight.

I think what makes the 109 so deadly, with regard to ACM, is her versatility; there is no match for her energy ability. She climbs like a homesick angel. But in a tight turning fight at slow speeds, there is nothing that will turn with her except the Spit.

The 109 is particularly well suited to the type of vertical seperation lead turns you describe... she loves to fight in the vertical!

And finally, I want to thank you for your comments about formation flying. I am just a guy who had a few hours in a J3, but I always held that simple formation flying is one of the best ways to develop judgement with regard to situational awarness. It isn't something that appeals to a lot of folks who sim... flying along, not shooting at anything. But I always got such a kick out of it that I built a couple missions for it that were available at the old WW2F; one for 2 109's and one for 4.

Anyway, thanks again!



------------------
Renner
http://ardennes44.20go.com

#659300 - 07/23/02 04:26 PM Re: Dogfighting- What's your tactic?  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Great Read Raven. Thanks for the tips!

I love the A-10. I think she is one of the most beautiful Aircraft to ever go from Engineers Design Table to Assembly Floor. When I was a grunt in the Army, doing field excercises. I use to love to watch you guys hopping in and out of wadi's. The first thing that would come to mind is...........Thanks God those things are on our side!

I best describe the A-10 like this........You ever been outside working, mowing the lawn etc, and a huge bee or hornet starts to buzz around your head and face. You swat at him, and he rushes your face at twice his previous speed, and you find yourself retreating in fear of getting Stung! The A-10 is that bee! Except he has a much bigger, and more painful stinger!

[This message has been edited by Greb (edited 07-23-2002).]

#659301 - 07/23/02 04:29 PM Re: Dogfighting- What's your tactic?  
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 20,834
Stormtrooper Offline
Lifer
Stormtrooper  Offline
Lifer

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 20,834
For those who like a hot pass I just spray and pray. And usually lose. When the other pilot prefers cold passes for some reason they always dive under me so i Split-S and try to get behind them.

Raven --you ever been to Bentwaters/Woodbridge??

[This message has been edited by JG52SturmT (edited 07-23-2002).]

#659302 - 07/24/02 07:51 PM Re: Dogfighting- What's your tactic?  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yeah I went on a couple TDY's to Bentwaters.
The comments about the Hornet were good- the Hog has lots of loiter time so that bee keeps on stinging and stinging. With 11 stations you don't run out of AMMO easy.
Not to mention the cannon- the A-10 is pretty much a gun that flies. The GAU-8 measures about 20 ft. The whole of the components extend to just past the wings. And it shoots BEER CANS!. No better fun than, range practice. You only know you're a real hogger when you've played the barrel like a pan pipe- if you stick your mouth to the side of them, and blow just right it sounds like an organ- its a fine art...

#659303 - 07/24/02 08:02 PM Re: Dogfighting- What's your tactic?  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


OOOH yeah Spooky- I know it was ages ago but you don't remeber the 109 pilot's nick name do you? Just wondering, I know there were a couple good 109 drivers in JCN. Krautwolfe was fantastic- he ate me up a few times. Of course being a real world f-16 pilot didnt hurt at all.
Anyway I used to have to change my nick name every other week so someone would fly me. Some I can remember were my old flying call sign "K" I spelled it --==K==--. The story behind that is a long one- I will tell it if you want.
Anyway I used AMMO_461, 2meter, Tattoo-U, HCannon, 30MMhog. I forget the others.
Just would be wild if that person were ME! I always tried to help anyone I flew- giving as much advice as allowed by typing while flying would allow. Anyway, how hungry are you for more? I'll see what I can cook up.


#659304 - 07/24/02 11:33 PM Re: Dogfighting- What's your tactic?  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Raven-109:
OOOH yeah Spooky- I know it was ages ago but you don't remeber the 109 pilot's nick name do you?...
...Anyway I used to have to change my nick name every other week so someone would fly me. Some I can remember were my old flying call sign "K" I spelled it --==K==--. The story behind that is a long one- I will tell it if you want...
...Just would be wild if that person were ME! I always tried to help anyone I flew- giving as much advice as allowed by typing while flying would allow. Anyway, how hungry are you for more? I'll see what I can cook up.


I am always hungry for more ACM advice... and yes, as a matter of fact, I do remember his call. It was 'F.Luke'. And no, it wasn't Fluke from WW2F... I asked him some time ago.

This guy was all class. Every time he waxed me he would toggle "". After I got tired of getting my ass kicked, he stuck around and asked me how long I had been flying the sim. Gave me some pointers and words of encouragement.

My call then was "9th_TOOBAD". He knew the C.O. of the squad I was flying with at the time.

Afterward, he asked if I wanted to navagate to a base. I was still learning to find my way around, but he gave me a heading and an ETA to Liege. Once in the pattern, he indicated his turn to base and final... I was impressed. I never saw him again.

There were other fine 109 drivers; Svak, Illwind... they all inspired me to try to master the monster.

------------------
Renner
http://ardennes44.20go.com

#659305 - 07/24/02 11:57 PM Re: Dogfighting- What's your tactic?  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Afterward, he asked if I wanted to navagate to a base. I was still learning to find my way around, but he gave me a heading and an ETA to Liege. Once in the pattern, he indicated his turn to base and final... I was impressed. I never saw him again.


DUDE that was ME!!!!

I don't ever remeber using that name, but it is a saying I have. It has to do with a trip in Vagas and a hooker with a case of mistaken Identity. The saying has to do with my opinion of Luke AFB as F**k Luke. This hooker about got my a$$ thrown out of the service, saying I beat her up- about ruined my marriage and everything.

Most guys in JCN could not nav, or land I always, lead then to a base and landed with them before I left them. Like I said I got called a cheater so much I had to use a diffrent name everytime I logged into JCN- for a while towards the end of it- thoses accusations were flying all over.

I also knew lots of Squad members, I never joined one because. I did some training in lots of the Squads- don't remeber the names now. Nice to meet you again man!!!



[This message has been edited by Raven-109 (edited 07-24-2002).]

#659306 - 07/25/02 12:00 AM Re: Dogfighting- What's your tactic?  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Darn it double post


[This message has been edited by Raven-109 (edited 07-24-2002).]

#659307 - 07/25/02 12:44 AM Re: Dogfighting- What's your tactic?  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Raven-109:
DUDE that was ME!!!!



Unbelievable! Well... great to see you again, sir! When do we fly?




------------------
Renner
http://ardennes44.20go.com

#659308 - 07/25/02 01:11 AM Re: Dogfighting- What's your tactic?  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm just coming in reading this- that is wild as I don't know what.. yep we didn't like Luke much needless to say- I wasn't as kewl as I am now- newly-wed your husband gets accused of beating up a hooker. Tends to muddy the water a bit. We got through that intact.
As soon as I walked in he said to me "what do I always say when I hear Luke AFB?" My responce was F**k Luke LOL.

Then he said read this post-
Holly crap! that is amazing- how long has it been about what 4 or 5 years at least? I am in total shock still!

We have had all kinds of things happen on here since we got back into the sim community. Proving that the virtual world is a small place as well as the real one. He found a picture of me on an A-10 site. Geeze this has been one weird week... we also found a couple we thought we'd never heard from again. Just suddenly out of the blue got an e-mail and poof there they were. Getting Cable was the best thing we ever did- never used to like to be online any more than we had to because it was so annoying with our old bean cans and string connection we had.


#659309 - 07/25/02 01:25 AM Re: Dogfighting- What's your tactic?  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


It really is a small world; virtual or otherwise!

It has been about three years since he kicked the crap outta me! I must say that, that ass whuppin' made me want to fly the 109. And even though he demolished me, he was a total class act; unlike a lot of the jerk, fighter pilot wannabees you encountered there, your man was a true sport.

Anyway, glad to meet you both and glad to see you again...F.Luke!



------------------
Renner
http://ardennes44.20go.com

#659310 - 07/25/02 01:39 AM Re: Dogfighting- What's your tactic?  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


well, that's because he flew an A-10. Only the rocket jocks are buttheads LOL. When your in the slow ugly warthog- you can't have too much an ego with the emphasis on the TOO much. His theory was fly quietly and carry a BIG gun heh heh.
He likes to teach- my problem is I just can't get the whole theory behind the 109. I try to do what he's saying but it just doesn't do what I want- he sits there and whips it around on me before I even know what happened, half the time like you said I never know were its coming from.
I tried to do that negative g wing-over thingie but I can't get that either.
He's sets up some scenarios an I shoot him- but he's letting me do it. I haven learned alot, but still can't compare.
Falcon 4.0 is another one we like- I am real good at formation fling in that game. We can do corkscrew roll overs. Verticle scissors its a blast. If I could land better I be real happy- if I were a real pilot I'd be flying a desk by now.... scrape there goes another tail pipe.

#659311 - 07/25/02 01:39 AM Re: Dogfighting- What's your tactic?  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh, and speaking of Betty Page...


...my desktop for the last year or so!

------------------
Renner
http://ardennes44.20go.com

#659312 - 07/25/02 01:42 AM Re: Dogfighting- What's your tactic?  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


COOL deal

I like her too- wish I looked like her... if people woulodn't think I was a lesbo I'd like to get this as a tattoo



[This message has been edited by Medusa_WASP (edited 07-24-2002).]

#659313 - 07/25/02 02:16 AM Re: Dogfighting- What's your tactic?  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


You don't need to look like Betty- baby. You look better.

I found this pic of her just today- (long story)
I had thought it lost for a long time only to find it on a whim of a chance- found it at an A-10 site, A friend of ours took this a while ago.
Here it is:


Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
10 Years ago MV Sewol
by wormfood. 04/15/24 08:25 PM
Pride Of Jenni race win
by NoFlyBoy. 04/15/24 12:22 AM
It's Friday: grown up humor for the weekend.
by NoFlyBoy. 04/12/24 01:41 PM
OJ Simpson Dead at 76
by bones. 04/11/24 03:02 PM
They wokefied tomb raider !!
by Blade_RJ. 04/10/24 03:09 PM
Good F-35 Podcast
by RossUK. 04/08/24 09:02 AM
Gleda Estes
by Tarnsman. 04/06/24 06:22 PM
Food Safety and Bad Roommates
by KRT_Bong. 04/04/24 02:16 AM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0