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#658932 - 07/13/02 03:44 PM Target's v5.0 FMl Pack: You spin me right round  

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Installed it and it really makes a difference
I am lawndarting all over the place.
I am trying to practice before joining Ardennes 44. Glad I did to..I suck!
Whats the SOP for spin recovery ?
Does it vary from a/c to a/c ?
Are the enemy a/c also affected by the F/M ?
If I have the altitude I sometimes dump the flaps and that helps..not always.
Tried the Fly Now mission and had to revive 23 times. Mostly due to spinning in.
Suggestions ?

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#658933 - 07/13/02 05:14 PM Re: Target's v5.0 FMl Pack: You spin me right round  

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the only thing i can do for myself that usually works is to just point my nose down, if i have alt. if i don't, i'm pretty much screwed!
i don't know what the exact sop is for spin recovery, or even if it's different from plane to plane.

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#658934 - 07/13/02 06:20 PM Re: Target's v5.0 FMl Pack: You spin me right round  
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Hi,

it's true, You must fly more careful with FM5.0 . On the other hand, you can do things you couldn't do before. So head up, just a little more practice, and you'll win. No joke. That was the way I learned. If you want to get better, practice the BF109 Flynow-mission. If you're good at it, try the standard-flynow in a P-51. You'll shoot them all in no time.

Marc-DAvid

#658935 - 07/13/02 10:36 PM Re: Target's v5.0 FMl Pack: You spin me right round  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Lanc104:
...Whats the SOP for spin recovery ?
Does it vary from a/c to a/c ?
Are the enemy a/c also affected by the F/M ?
If I have the altitude I sometimes dump the flaps and that helps..not always.
Tried the Fly Now mission and had to revive 23 times. Mostly due to spinning in.
Suggestions ?



Lanc,

Don't be discouraged. It takes awhile to get the hang of these FM's.

There are only a few guidlines for recovery, and yes, it will vary somewhat between aircraft. Generally, you want to regain enough airflow to get the controls to respond, therefore, pull the flaps up, hit full power, try to get the nose down, and roll in the direction of the spin.

The aircraft all respond differently, with the longer nosed, inline engine aircraft a bit less prone to flatspin.

Yes, the AI are subject to the same FM.

While I have a few hours in private single engine aircraft, I have never (thank you God!) had to try to recover from a flat spin
There are many, many fine real world pilots in these forums, some of whom have actual combat experience, who are far better qualified to respond to your questions.

Jumpy, are you out there?

Renner

#658936 - 07/13/02 11:43 PM Re: Target's v5.0 FMl Pack: You spin me right round  

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The real procedure for teh P47 was:

Level elevator, apply aileron to the same direction fo teh spin, apply opposite rudder. Throttle up slowly. Somethign like this. I relly can t remember. But it was somethign like this.

I watched a video that was used in Basic training for early D model pilots. From Zeno s Warbirds page. A really good video.

#658937 - 07/14/02 01:37 AM Re: Target's v5.0 FMl Pack: You spin me right round  

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Thanks for the info. I actually just signed on after trying various recoveries from altitude. Thank goodnes for the revive function.

Renner: Thanks for the response. I am practicing. Believe me I am! As for being discouraged, well, its more like a oops d*mit..here I go again. When I finally join the Ardennes 44 campaign I dont want to let the team down with my poor flying.

45 JHAT: Interesting that you mentioned the P-47. Boy what a ride! A real beast. I was climbing to high altitude and inducing spins and CRUNCH!
I even tried dropping the undercarriage just to see what that would do.

Test pilots are an awfully brave lot. WWII pilots who did this type of testing without the aid of an ejection seat WOW.....

#658938 - 07/14/02 01:37 AM Re: Target's v5.0 FMl Pack: You spin me right round  

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Thanks for the info. I actually just signed on after trying various recoveries from altitude. Thank goodnes for the revive function.

Renner: Thanks for the response. I am practicing. Believe me I am! As for being discouraged, well, its more like a oops d*mit..here I go again. When I finally join the Ardennes 44 campaign I dont want to let the team down with my poor flying.

45 JHAT: Interesting that you mentioned the P-47. Boy what a ride! A real beast. I was climbing to high altitude and inducing spins and CRUNCH!
I even tried dropping the undercarriage just to see what that would do.

Test pilots are an awfully brave lot. WWII pilots who did this type of testing without the aid of an ejection seat WOW.....

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"You are what you do when it counts" - Masao

#658939 - 07/14/02 03:52 PM Re: Target's v5.0 FMl Pack: You spin me right round  

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I was wondering, how do you create a flight model for an aircraft that you have never flown. I found a thread on google groups and it was interesting to read how the sim companies have to give game play vs accuracy the nod.
I.E. One fellow on this board let a P-38 Pilot fly his microprose sim with the P-38 in it and according to this thread the P-38 pilot was horrified. Seems they got it "all wrong"
So, not having flown the project aircraft, how do you design an accurate FM ?
Not that its anything I could ever even think to attempt! And again thanks to Target for this mod. I am actually if anything enjoying the game more now. It takes more skill, and thinking instead of hauling the ship around and blasting away.
I was just curious....

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"You are what you do when it counts" - Masao

[This message has been edited by Lanc104 (edited 07-14-2002).]

#658940 - 07/14/02 05:41 PM Re: Target's v5.0 FMl Pack: You spin me right round  
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Keep your angle of atack low. If you watch film or better yet airshows of these great birds, their manuvers are surprisingly shallow, graceful keeping the airspeed up. Keep an eye on your airspeed indicator.

According to a real Mustang pilot, most all manuvers can be performed using no more than an inch of stick movement. (Im still striving for this level of grace and skill )
Also, practice at high altitude.

My bigest problem with flight control are compression stalls especially with the 109. Any advise will be greatly appreciated.

#658941 - 07/15/02 12:21 AM Re: Target's v5.0 FMl Pack: You spin me right round  

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The above spin recovery instruction is a good one. My thoughts for the planes in theis sim would be:

1. Take those hamfists and center the stick.(don't make a bad situation worse)

2. Apply rudder opposite to your rotation.

3. Once the oscillation has stoped( The nose bobbing like a drunken prom date). Apply forward stick.

4. Throttle into the dive until you have gained speed to regain your control.

In the event your in an inverted spin, you are in even higher and deeper. The recovery process is about the same except you apply back stick- and you'll need about 5000 more feet.

The scariest thing you can ever face in an aircraft is a spin. Especially in reduced static stability configured planes- the pursuit planes of WWII were very forgiving- they had slightly relaxed stability. But not nearly as bad as modern aircraft. Spin recovery does vary from Ac to Ac the above should be enough to get you out of a spin in this Sim. In jets its a whole diffrent deal- without lift and thrust they fly as good as a cinder block. (A real expensive one)
Best thing to do is get in your ride get nice and high and get youself into some spins.
Getting into a spin is not too hard, reduce throttle, back stick and kick the rudder hard- your in a spin.

Good Luck.




The 109 is a very sensitive to spins- but that is actually a good thing- for fighting its this unstability that allows you to bring the nose to bear. Flaps will help you avoid stalls at lower speeds extend- faster retract. I personally love the 109- its my favorite plane in the game.

[This message has been edited by Medusa_Beholder (edited 07-14-2002).]

#658942 - 07/15/02 02:00 AM Re: Target's v5.0 FMl Pack: You spin me right round  

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This FM pack sounds like something I'd like to try. I think I remember someone posting about how it's possible to install it so it can be "swapped" back and forth with the original FM. This would allow a person to still play in Hyperlobby with the required "stock" FM, and still be able to use the new one offline or at Ardennes 44. Would anyone care to post a step by step "How to" on that one for those of us who are still learning our way around one of these infernal computer contraptions? LOL! It would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys.

TimeBandit

#658943 - 07/15/02 02:18 AM Re: Target's v5.0 FMl Pack: You spin me right round  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Medusa_Beholder...I personally love the 109- its my favorite plane in the game.

[This message has been edited by Medusa_Beholder (edited 07-14-2002).][/B]

Raven... is that you? When ya gonna fly with us? :}



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http://ardennes44.20go.com/

#658944 - 07/15/02 03:16 AM Re: Target's v5.0 FMl Pack: You spin me right round  

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Ok the Hyperlobby/Default FM question first. Copy your ww2.sqs file located in the C:Prgogramfiles\Janes Comabat SimmulationslWW2Fighters\Data to somewhere else. I keep my various different sqs files in folders in MyDocuments. Once that is done install whichever of the new FMs you want. The version of Target's FM pack that is at http://Ardennes44.20go.com allows for individual installations of the planes instead of by year.

Spin recovery is one thing. However I feel it is more important to learn how to avoid the spins in the first place. Makes recovery so much easier since you aren't spinning. Some of the planes just about will not spin unless you insist on it. The Spit and 38 or good examples of that. The easiest way to spin is chop the throttle and start yanking hard on the stick. That works with the default but not with Target' FMs. Learn to feel the edge of the stall and keep things there. All of the planes have slightly different recovery techniques.

Some notes from flying these things.

The Jug. The Jug likes to have right rudder feed to it. Dosent matter if it is up down or sideways right rudder will keep you out of trouble.

The 51. The B model is a bit more unstable than the D. Use the combat flaps to turn with. Let them do the work and don't pull so hard on the stick. Forward stick, full power and right rudder works well to pull it out of a spin.

The 109. Dosen't really have a bad spin and will depart with the right wing down. It is an easy plane to recover since its nose wants to drop in the spin anyway.

The 190s. There are big differences between the Dora and Anton. Either one can toss you in the dirt in a hurry. The Dora is the more forgiving of the 2 but to me is harder to get back in control. Important thing is to GET THE NOSE DOWN with either one. The Anton seems to like having the throttle cut. Also lots of use of the rudder wil keep you out of trouble. The Anton does not like to get its controls crossed up so be gentle and do one thing at a time. Watch for exceeding the angle of attack as it is easy to do.

And lastly the compression issue. Waggling the wings and rocking the rudder side to side helps some. However some planes like the 109 are still prone to compression so be carefull in a dive.

#658945 - 07/15/02 04:36 AM Re: Target's v5.0 FMl Pack: You spin me right round  

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The 109's problems at high speeds actually aren't so much to do with compressibility as with heavy ailerons and poor cockpit design. The RAF noted that in a captured Me 109E it was impossible to apply enough force to the stick at 400 mph to achieve proper deflection, due to the cramped cockpit. The 109's controls also became quite stiff at high speeds, the combination of factors giving it a very poor high-speed roll rate.

#658946 - 07/15/02 08:48 PM Re: Target's v5.0 FMl Pack: You spin me right round  

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Yep its' me Formerly known as Raven_109

I'd love to fly with you guys, ubt I am in school (AGAIN) this time going after my masters. So, as you can guess that takes quite a bit of my time these days. I'm still trying to get the little woman(medusa) into an online game- she's done lots of flying on the old JCN but never has done a WWII game online. I'd be up for a game everynow and again- I'll even volinteer to be a bad guy in a mission. I don't think I could but in a regular scheduel of flying to do anyone any good. Keep me in mind for a quick fill in slot though.

Formerly:


Now known as:
(I'll make a new cool logo at some point and time)



[This message has been edited by Medusa_Beholder (edited 07-15-2002).]

#658947 - 07/16/02 12:14 AM Re: Target's v5.0 FMl Pack: You spin me right round  

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Wow some great info here. thanks for all the tips! I've really enjoyed the updated flight model.
I am working my way through little mini combats till I get more proficient.
The odds while learning a/c controll and dogfighting up to three a/c make it..um interesting.
I dont like the intrument pop ups very much, but I guess its an adjustment.


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"You are what you do when it counts" - Masao

#658948 - 07/16/02 01:00 AM Re: Target's v5.0 FMl Pack: You spin me right round  

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Lanc,

Forget pop-ups... use the panel!

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Renner
http://ardennes44.20go.com/

#658949 - 07/16/02 01:59 AM Re: Target's v5.0 FMl Pack: You spin me right round  

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A44Spooky:

Hmm, well the default view gives you the gunsight and the tops of some instruments..
I thought about adjusting the seating postion, but there is obviously another way..care to enlighten me ?


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"You are what you do when it counts" - Masao

#658950 - 07/16/02 02:47 AM Re: Target's v5.0 FMl Pack: You spin me right round  

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Sure... use the hat button. If your stick doesn't have one, use the mouse.

#658951 - 07/16/02 02:54 AM Re: Target's v5.0 FMl Pack: You spin me right round  

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Thanks, A44BigDog, betweenthis and the related post below ("Complete idiot's guide..."), I should be able to figure it out now...
Lanc104, the instrument panel view key is the "O ins" key at the far lower right of the keyboard. If your joystick has a button mapping feature, I would think it could be assigned to one of your joystick buttons, but don't quote me on that, I'm still trying to figure a lot of this stuff out myself. hehehe!
TimeBandit

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