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#657405 - 04/11/01 02:25 AM Flight Models?  
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Somewhere over the Channel
Are there 3rd party flight models for this game like there are for EAW and CFS2?

Thanks.

------------------

Mark "MarkShot" Kratzer
Author of STK/EAW (Shoot to Kill/European Air War)
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/stk_eaw/index.shtml


Mark "MarkShot" Kratzer
Author of STK/EAW (Shoot to Kill/European Air War)
http://www.simhq.com/_air/PDF/STK_EAW_v106.pdf
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#657406 - 04/11/01 06:01 AM Re: Flight Models?  

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Yes there are several flightmodel enhancements to WW2F. You can find them at dogfighter.com in the ww2f section. I think ww2f.dogfighter.com works. From what I have read though if your interested in online play some pilots may get annoyed if you use any add-on fm's. I personally have not tried any yet but I have them on a zip somewhere and plan to try them when time is available. Good Luck and fly whatever works for you.

#657407 - 04/11/01 12:56 PM Re: Flight Models?  

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Indeed, you can find numerous versions of Target's FMs at http://ww2f.dogfighter.com/ . Installation is very simple -- running a BAT file will let you choose between 1944 and 1945 FMs, plus it will also give you the option to revert to the original FMs if you like them better. Couldn't be more painless.

#657408 - 04/12/01 02:08 AM Re: Flight Models?  
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I have visited numerous sites and do not see any FM mods. Could you please point me to some files. Thank you.

Quote:
Originally posted by Witchdoctor:
Indeed, you can find numerous versions of Target's FMs at http://ww2f.dogfighter.com/ . Installation is very simple -- running a BAT file will let you choose between 1944 and 1945 FMs, plus it will also give you the option to revert to the original FMs if you like them better. Couldn't be more painless.




------------------

Mark "MarkShot" Kratzer
Author of STK/EAW (Shoot to Kill/European Air War)
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/stk_eaw/index.shtml


Mark "MarkShot" Kratzer
Author of STK/EAW (Shoot to Kill/European Air War)
http://www.simhq.com/_air/PDF/STK_EAW_v106.pdf
#657409 - 04/12/01 02:15 AM Re: Flight Models?  

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http://ww2f.dogfighter.com Custom Modifications, Miscellaneous

#657410 - 04/13/01 06:18 PM Re: Flight Models?  

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I had the same problem finding the flight models there too. Its on the page that looks like a skins page.

------------------
dogfight.com

[This message has been edited by ral (edited 04-13-2001).]

#657411 - 04/16/01 12:12 AM Re: Flight Models?  
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Hey Judge, good to see yer still around.
Question please? Are the take off & landing runs a little short? Seems to me they are. Maybe lotso power und brakes maybe?
FWIW,
Good Hunting!
PS. That CFSI terrains' quite nice!

#657412 - 04/17/01 10:14 PM Re: Flight Models?  
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Hey, i just got this sim hoping the new FM would wake it up and I am sorry i waited so long. well wo/ the new FM i might not be so happy. with these FM and CFS2 w/ the 1% FM the P-38s feel very very similar.

One thing i don't get is the auto trim feature. how do i trim to climb, fly lvl ect??

BTW i got the 2cd version no printed manual but a fantastically entertaining and educational Multi media package w/ video of the aircraft, historical events put into perspective so you really know why the hell you are attackin or defending whatever you are ordered to.

I paid $7.99 for WW2F and just the video, pics and historical content is worth twice that.

These guys really did a first rate job.

Anyone really jones-ing bad for a WW2 sim can't go wrong with this sim. I like the entire presentation & experience way better than CFS2 which I bought last week to fly the Korean War Pack (which consequently was rated "No MiG Alley!!"). If ya gotta have carriers than CFS2 is required. If ya just want to have some fun and be challenged and spend less than $10.00 this is the ticket to prop nirvana (until IL2 comes out...1 reason I am developin my prop skills a bit.)

I stayed up till 4:00 am watchin videos and flying. The AI can DF pretty well but is kinda dumb, like 2 of em follow my P-38 600+ kts straight into my crater....

D3D is not so hot, i have a GF256 and there are some anomolies but nothing horrific, i may get a pair of voodoo2's for this and I have been meaning to get Grand Prix legends so they will be usefull.

The Multiplayer, coop or us vs them, with the awesome mission builder promises to be a lot of fun.

I am gonna buy this sim for every kid 8 years old and up that i ever need to get a gift for.

Ok time 2 fly...


blitz

#657413 - 04/18/01 05:02 PM Re: Flight Models?  

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blit_ZEN: you are absolutely right about the "Museum." I LOVE... LOOOOVE the combat videos, not to mention all the other historical information you can find in the Museum's nooks & crannies. This was one area where CFS2 really let me down; I don't feel half as knowledgeable about the Pacific Theater, or especially about the various planes in CFS2 as I do with the planes in WWII Fighters. Man, if you could string together all the information provided in the WWII Fighters Museum and present it in a two-hour package, you'd have one hell of a Discovery Channel special presentation

#657414 - 04/18/01 09:56 PM Re: Flight Models?  
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http://www.ao.net/~chuck/ww2/ww2sycho.htm


this site also has lots of stuff


Most people never look up
#657415 - 04/24/01 12:43 AM Re: Flight Models?  
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Hello: I was wondering if someone here could please explain to me what differences I will notice in the flight models of the different aircraft and years available if I install Target's Flight Model pack v40a5. If there is no difference in a particular aircraft, please mention that as well.

Thanks!
Gryphon

#657416 - 04/24/01 05:47 PM Re: Flight Models?  

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Gryphon,

In general: the 109 and 190 have significant performance gains from 44 to 45. The P-47, 51, and 38 not too much...but a little.

Was that what you were looking for?

Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

Dan

#657417 - 04/24/01 09:48 PM Re: Flight Models?  
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Dann: Thanks for the reply. I guess I should have asked a more specific question, 'cause now that I look back at my question, it really isn't too clear what I'm after. Sorry about that. I'm trying to decide whether I need to install the Flight Model pack or not. If there really isn't much difference in the way the aircraft fly, I will probably not try it. Let me ask you this:

1) Are there any noticeable differences in the way the AI aircraft's flight modeling is rendered? Sometimes those AI aircraft can pull off some amazing feats of airmanship that really seems kind of impossible. IMO, it seems the AI flight modeling is a lot different than the player's flight modeling.
2) Will an aircraft that I fly stall and enter a spin if I get too slow or pull too hard in a bank? Is the spin recoverable?
3) Are the Flight Model changes more a change in the engine performance or are they more a change in the flight characteristics?

I appreciate your help.
Thanks!
Gryphon

#657418 - 04/24/01 10:36 PM Re: Flight Models?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Gryphon:

1) Are there any noticeable differences in the way the AI aircraft's flight modeling is rendered?...IMO, it seems the AI flight modeling is a lot different than the player's flight modeling.


I have heard, though not confirmed, that the AI uses a flight model one level lower than yours. Dissappointing, agreed...but not a show stopper because they're some of the more aggressive adversaries around. The improved flight models do help to even the playing field, once you start using your advantages against their disadvantages, again because of some of the tweaking in the flight model.

To say that they use one full level lower may be inaccurate; they may just have a relaxed model in some areas.

Quote:
Originally posted by Gryphon:

2) Will an aircraft that I fly stall and enter a spin if I get too slow or pull too hard in a bank? Is the spin recoverable?


Yes, you will definately experience spins with over-control! However, letting the contols go neutral will recover the spin. This is not entirely inaccurate; however there is not a WWII combat sim out there that does a high performance fighter spin justice. Beware the Focke-Wulf, yank too hard and she spins easily, just like the real one, I hear.

In my opinion, the spins in this game are a penalty for exceeding the aircraft's limitations, and result in you becoming a target. The recovery is hardcoded into the executable, and therefore not subject to modification.

Quote:
Originally posted by Gryphon:

3) Are the Flight Model changes more a change in the engine performance or are they more a change in the flight characteristics?

I appreciate your help.
Thanks!
Gryphon


Both.

Major accuracy changes have been made to the engine performances; this I saw by looking into the files and from my knowledge about how those aircraft were supposed to perform. I was very pleased with what I saw.

The changes to the flight model are far more complicated and out of my area of expertise, except to say that the flight model is actually complex and was "dumbed down" by Jane's.

For instance: the P-51 and P-38 were the only ones to actually have combat flaps, although you can actuate combat flaps on all the aircraft. No more. Now, the combat flap setting only works on the 51 and 38, although you will get a message saying that you've deployed them on the other aircraft. This goes to the advantage/disadvantage of each aircraft.

Depending on the year you select, each aircraft has it's own advantages over the others; 45 giving a nod to the German aircraft more so over their 44 counterparts. Overall, I'd say the flight models are outstanding representations of each aircraft now.

That said, have you posed this question to the author of the flight models over at WW2 Fighters Online?

Si Vis etc

Dan

#657419 - 04/25/01 06:55 AM Re: Flight Models?  
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Dann: Excellent answers to my questions and I can't thank you enough. Looks like I will probably install the Flight Model package now that I understand a little more of what's going on.

And, in answer to your question about whether I have asked the designer of the modification these questions, No, I haven't. It never even occurred to me. I tend to mentally put the creators of these modifications up on a pedestal, I guess. It's kind of a, "ssshhhhh......Don't bother the artist at work, you'll interrupt his creative process!" kind of a thing.

You're right, though, I should probably knock on the door over at WW2 Fighters Online and ask.

Once again, I appreciate your help.
Thanks!
Gryphon

#657420 - 04/25/01 05:10 PM Re: Flight Models?  

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Gryphon,

No problem. I just "discovered" Jane's WW2 fighters also.

Can you do me a favor in return? One of the first things I did when getting the game, was search for websites supporting it. I found WW2 Fighters Online, saw the modified flight models, and immediately used them. I'm kinda picky that way...I want realism. So, I've never flown Jane's with the stock FM's; could you post your opinions after installing them and tell me what differences you see?

Si Vis etc

Dan

#657421 - 04/25/01 11:32 PM Re: Flight Models?  
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Dann: Absolutely. I would be more than happy to share my observations with you. Give me a couple of days to compare/fly and I'll let you know what I come up with.

Did you install Target's FMv40a5 or the earlier version? The reason I ask is, I read above that v40a5 allows for easy switching between the original flight models and the modified flight models. Can you confirm that? So, you never tried the original flight model, right?

I'll get back to you with my obs. as soon as I have some.

As always, appreciate your help.
Gryphon

#657422 - 04/25/01 11:54 PM Re: Flight Models?  

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Gryphon,

Yes, I am using the 40a5 flight models; and no, outside of installation and checking, I've never used the stock ones.

It's easy to switch back and forth, you just "reinstall" the stock ones using the same installion method; be sure to back up the sqs file first!

Looking forward to your observations!!

Si Vis etc

Dan

#657423 - 04/28/01 01:57 PM Re: Flight Models?  
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Dann: Hey Dann, I haven't forgotten about you...I'm running into a snag or two getting a couple of add-ons squared away in the game. I'm working on it over at WW2F Online and it looks like I am coming down the home-stretch on them, so, I'll be test flying the flight models shortly. Just wanted to update you.....

Thanks!
Gryphon

#657424 - 04/30/01 04:51 PM Re: Flight Models?  

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Gryphon,

Thanks for the update; take your time!!!

Si Vis etc

Dan

#657425 - 05/03/01 05:48 PM Re: Flight Models?  
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Dann: Well, it looks like this topic has manifested itself in a timely fashion over at WW2 Online. I've read with great interest your input so far. I always get a lot out of other "Real World" pilot's observations in matters concerning flight sims. I'll probably jump in the fray over there shortly just as soon as I can.......but.......

Just when things were going so well with ironing out all the add-on woes I was experiencing, my joystick decides to start giving me a headache. It's going to be tough to evaluate these flight models any time soon. A couple of nights ago during a test flight, I noticed I was suddenly only getting about 25% deflection in my roll axis to the right. I've tried numerous attempts at recalibrating, but to no avail. The effect is apparent in all sims, so, it's the stick. Great. One more issue to deal with.

I'll jump in over there hopefully before too much time goes by. A buddy of mine may have a standby stick I can borrow and use in the meantime.

Talk to you soon,
Gryphon

#657426 - 05/03/01 06:13 PM Re: Flight Models?  

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Gryphon,

No worries, get that stick fixed; call out to me either here or at WW2 Fighters, and let me know what you think of the flight models.

Si Vis etc

Dan

#657427 - 05/13/01 02:04 PM Re: Flight Models?  
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I'm a stickler towards the "more" accurate FMs. I've really enjoyed watching/listening to you comms. Just that annoying little momentary sway to the opposite of rudder deflection. I love that torque response when going on or off of throttle. A nice touch!
Thanks again peoples!
FWIW,
Good Hunting!

#657428 - 05/30/01 06:27 AM Re: Flight Models?  
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I to am thinking of revisiting WW2 fighters, so thanks for the latest info.


III/JG11_Tiger
#657429 - 05/30/01 05:14 PM Re: Flight Models?  

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Kraut,

That "opposite" sway is not directly related to the flight model..rather, it is your virtual head moving opposite the plane's yaw! And, realistic....

Si Vis etc

Dan

#657430 - 06/01/01 08:30 AM Re: Flight Models?  
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I don't know Dann. When rudder is applied, via CH Pro Pedals, there's no movement. When a bit more is applied, then that damn lurch takes place. Like, it's not a smooth transition.
FWIW,
Good Hunting!

#657431 - 06/01/01 05:48 PM Re: Flight Models?  

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Kraut,

Hmmm, interesting...

But what else would that "lurch" be simulating?

Si Vis etc

Dan

#657432 - 06/01/01 09:24 PM Re: Flight Models?  
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Herr Dann, it acts just like a spike. Two different rudder pedals of the same make, same results. When I check on the calibration scale, everything smooth.
Moving mud or fine tuning onto a bomber is really irksome. With the new FMs in place, this is the only rub I have with this sim. Hehe, it's really minor when compared to BOBBY BOB BOB!!!
FWIW,
Good Hunting!

#657433 - 06/01/01 10:47 PM Re: Flight Models?  

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Kraut,

Good explanation! I figured it was an intentional replication of the inertia of yaw because it happens on my keyboard, too. (No rudder pedals!).

Si Vis etc

Dan

#657434 - 06/02/01 03:12 AM Re: Flight Models?  
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Herr Dann:
After reading your posts & appreciating your concerns, I've gave it another go. The only thing different was me messing around mit vid. drivers.
Flying the 109 und 47 with power on, the rudder takes more accutation to the right. Much more than to the left. Mit power off, the same both ways. With auto trim on, the problem is more pronounced. With auto trim off, it works great. I've never noticed all this before but it's sure pronounced now. For me, a hidden virtue that I don't think any sim I've flown has immulated. Surprise surprise for me. After all this time I still don't know it all!
Maybe when they tap me on the face mit a round mouth shovel?
Thanks again for your input.
FWIW,
Good Hunting!

#657435 - 06/03/01 06:20 AM Re: Flight Models?  
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Dann: WOW! Did I ever get side-tracked and derailed! Started working on that bomber skin and disappeared into the paint shop. Sorry about leaving this thread for so long.

I did install the v4.05 1944 FM and got my stick up and running, but all the flying I have been doing is swarming around that bomber taking pictures so I could see what I needed to paint/fix. I've used either the Me262 or the P-51 for most of my photo flights. I took a quick flight or two in the other aircraft when I first started checking that skin, but my goal was to find a stable platform for lining up the bomber for screenshots.

I will say this though: Both the P-51 and the Me262 fly better with the new 1944 FM. Both aircraft seem to hold/bleed their energy more realistically. Flight at high angle of attack seems better now too without all that wobble mush that used to take place.

The quick flight or two I did in the Fw190 didn't actually seem to reveal much to me that was new or different. I was hoping the roll rate would be less because the default roll rate seems a bit snappy. I didn't notice too much difference in the roll rate.

The Me109 seems better but I can't really pinpoint the details as to why I think so. I need more stick time in it. The P-38? I have yet to get in her again.

Well, that is about all I have been able to discern so far. I will talk with you again about it soon now that I've dropped the paint brush and have the joystick in hand again.

By the way, I'm interested in your FU3 Race project and I have a related topic to run by you if you have a second.

Gryphon

#657436 - 06/04/01 05:52 PM Re: Flight Models?  

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Kraut,

Glad you're getting so much enjoyment out of this sim....I discovered it late and really enjoy it.

Gryphon,

As posted over at WW2 Fighters, my email is Dan459@aol.com, contact me anytime.

Regarding the roll rate for the Focke-Wulf, I just found some outstanding performance comparison graphs for World War II Fighters (the real ones, not sim!).

The Focke-Wulf was capable of reaching an amazing 160 degree per second roll rate, compared to the Mustangs 85-90 degrees per second, and the Thunderbolts roll rate of 82-85 degrees per second.

Understanding that they have peak roll rates at different altitudes and airspeeds, the Fock-Wulf is nonetheless impressive!

Dan

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