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#562133 - 08/10/01 01:23 PM Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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Damn it, I was kinda hoping for something in "the low 8s". Very disappointing score. It's not uncommon for an "adequate" flight sim to score poorly, in the 5-6 region but such games are usually the work of obscure and inexperienced developers that nobody took seriously to begin with.

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Oh well, the race is not over yet. The Typhoon team are talented folks. Unless they're taken over by the Microsoft Flight Simulator team I'm positive the next version of Typhoon will take the current problems into account.

[This message has been edited by MonsterZero (edited 08-10-2001).]

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#562134 - 08/10/01 02:26 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  
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I read the review, but as with most of the reviews coming out of Gamespot ( and CGW for that matter ) they are of decreasing quality. Since Denny Aitken and Johnny Wilson left there has been a significant decline in quality both at the mag and site. It is rather amazing to me that somebody could post a review that far off base, especially from a veteran reviewer such as Tom Chick. All I can say is that his review is of dubious quality to a person looking at picking up Typhoon. Most other reviewers have given it a 7.5 or up, even the UK version of Gamespot if I'm not mistaken.
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[This message has been edited by MIGMaster (edited 08-10-2001).]


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#562135 - 08/10/01 02:53 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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I think you'll find that most people that have played the game on Hard and have finished the campaign agree with the review on Gamespot.

However, Typhoon is an excellent entry level game for the beginner who wants to experience some of the joys of a combat flight sim. If they want to progress from a game to a sim, then after a month or two they should think about upgrading to a more serious sim, or they'll develop bad habits.

Basically Typhoon has it's place in the grand order of things. But a balanced review should point out the pro's and con's. Not just concentrate on one side of it (good or bad), which is what all the reviews I've read so far appear to do.

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#562136 - 08/10/01 04:14 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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I have had it on my drive for a while (ordered it even before the official US release) but didn't really explore it because of lack of time. Now I wish I could sell it. Bad judgement on my part. Next time I'll avoid those pre-release orders, wait for an objective review and don't ask any question at SimHQ. The kids who were raving about Typhoon-they would probably speak in the same glowing terms about a sim where you get to control a Superman character and score points by overflying people and spitting tobacco on them.

[This message has been edited by MonsterZero (edited 08-10-2001).]

#562137 - 08/10/01 04:32 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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Quote:
Originally posted by MonsterZero:
The kids who were raving about Typhoon-they would probably speak in the same glowing terms about a sim where you get to control a Superman character and score points by overflying people and spitting tobacco on them.


Monster,

That was well funny... nice one m8



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#562138 - 08/10/01 04:36 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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MonsterZero..LOL! Hilarious.

EFT stays on the HD in memory of EF2000, but just for that. I did not clicked that icon since I discovered here the "mothership" story.
End level boss? In a Sim? You kidding me? I'll never waste my time KNOWING that I will get to fight a "Mothership" that deflects AAs
and has to be downed with unguideds?
LOL!
If somebody still can call that a sim then I fly a real F18 everyday to go to work

And (unfortunately) I don't

Too bad nobody is doing a REAL sim on the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Dot...Arching.

-.-

#562139 - 08/10/01 04:59 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  
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I agree that Typhoon is not a hardcore sim by any stretch of the imagination, but the thing that gets me about the review is that it lost sight of the fact that it was not supposed to be a new F4 or Mig Alley. A lot of the things he said in the review also hold true for other "game sims" such as USAF or the Fighter's Anthology, etc.... It is an excellent lead in sim, but unfortunately this point was missing from Chick's review, as was any sort of balance.

[This message has been edited by MIGMaster (edited 08-10-2001).]

[This message has been edited by MIGMaster (edited 08-10-2001).]


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#562140 - 08/10/01 05:01 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  
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Well, ya gotta remember how it was marketed as well. It was never intended to be the end all of sims (like so many would still not let go of, even after it released).

When reviewing a product, one must first look at "what did the makers intend". When USAF was at E3 a few years back, I chose it as sim of the show. I took a lot of heat for that because it was not a hard core sim. But that was not the criteria ... as sims go, how did it measure up to what it was intended. In that case, USAF had done the most impressive job up to that point in the development cycle.

Same thing applies here. How does Typhoon measure up verses what was promised? Pretty good. Not great, but not far off the mark. When I reviewed Typhoon I had to turn off the 20 years of sim flying and "hard-core LAN fanatic" attitude and try to look at it objectively.

From my review:
"Aimed at new flight sim enthusiasts (and people looking for a casual simming experience without having to read a 600 page manual) to strategically minded gamers, Typhoon covers many aspects."

So I pretty much pointed out right there, it is a casual sim experience, tending towards game. Is that bad? No, that is what it was trying to accomplish. My summary at the end was not glowing, nor was it demeaning ... it pretty much said, as I have seen posted, good for a quick romp, won't spend years on my hard drive.

Reviewing is very difficult and you will never get everyone to agree. The key is to remember, reviewers can not honestly review a product based on what THEY wanted it to be, but on what the MAKERS intended it to be. I found the Gamespot review interesting since they tend to do a poor job of flight sim reviews lately (in my opinion) and a product comes along that has more general appeal that would probably fit more in with the gaming style of their readers and suddenly they are trying to do serious flight sim reviews. Boy, did they pick the wrong sim for that.

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[This message has been edited by CRASH - SimHQ (edited 08-10-2001).]


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#562141 - 08/10/01 05:23 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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Good points Crash.

The key to reviewing products is not holding every product up to Falcon 4 or Janes F-18. You can't review flight sims anymore and grade them 1-10 using a hard core flight sim as the standard! That is not fair and it does a complete unjustice to the mid level and entry simmer and those companies that are making sims for them. Typhoon is important to the sim industry and hobby, like it or not.

Some of the names of people I have seen knocking this sim are hard-core simmers. I could have told them they wouldn't have liked it. Rage even tried to tell them by marketing this as a beginner/mid level sim. They should have listened to Rage's marketing this sim as they have said all along this IS NOT a hard core sim. I think some just saw Typhoon, new aircraft, kewl, must be hard core. No it isn't and Rage never claimed it to be.

If anyone thinks that the hard-core crowd can support the hobby then prepare for a slow death of hard-core flight simming. I strongly believe that hard-core simmers need to throw their support completely behind these entry/mid level sims. It brings in new flight simmers and their money which allows companies to make hard-core sims. Stop holding every sim up to a hard-core standard because not all will be. You don't have to buy the sim, but help those who have questions about flying in the virtual world and don't slam a sim just because it isn't hard-core. I am NOT advocating lying about a sim or censoring I am saying be a part of the solution which is promoting flight simming and not a part of the problem which is slamming sims because they aren't what you want in a hard-core sim.

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"...On the bloody morning after, One tin soldier rides away!"

#562142 - 08/10/01 06:05 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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Dusty.

I can live (and enjoy) a good lite sim, USAF was fun, the flight model was what it was, but you had lots of planes to fly on the other hand, interesting different scenarios and missions, and a fantastic graphic!

The only thing I can't really accept in EFT are the waiting time bethween one mission an another, the flight model (come on, it takes off in 4 seconds!!You can deploy your gear at Mach2 ???)
The weapon model, where in name of the playability, instead of enhancing the AI routines we make the missiles practically useless so the whole game becames more difficult?


And finally the end level boss.

I could have lived with all of the above, until the whole virtual (dinamic?) war still had a parvence of realism, but knowing that i have to wait 20' to fly a mission that will ask me to CAP an area that needs a SEAD instead, do that 20 times in a row and KNOWING that I will end up battling against flying monster? No way I don't have time for that!

bottom line USAF is an entry level sim! EFT is something in bethween Crimson Sky and a space shooter , in a space shooter anything can happen, even a battle with a space monster

As for the comparison with "real" sims,( F18, F4 and Flanker) I agree that may be not fair, but it's unevitable since the ARE there and the do represent the top in this particular field.

Or we just have to ignore them because the haev too thick manuals ?

One more thing, I 'm not really worried about the future of sims, I never had so many very good sims together on my HD (F18, F4, Flanker, and Mig Alley) ever! And I don't even believe in this statement that they are doing "lite" sims to attract more people to the sim world, I was attracted to sims just because they where "complicated" ! ( well F19 was for me at those times LOL!) If I ( gameplayer) want to do somethin "easy" I pick Crimson Sky or Tie Fighter and I'm happy!

They do lite sims because they cost less so they hope they can make more money with it.

People are attracted by sims because they look for something different, more challenging, like playing chess.
Did you ever saw a "lite" chess game? And still they are playing chess all over the world since a loong time.

They did not even changed the graphic or flight model ever!!


-.-

#562143 - 08/10/01 06:39 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  
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Real Typhoon NOW does standstill to gear UP in under 7 SECONDS with EJ200. Could be closer to 4 or 5 with EJ230. This is a beast in thrust to weight ratio, Iv'e seen the real deal at Farnborough, it went from standstill to off the runway to vertical and looped, all in a mater of 15 seconds he was well over the top half of the loop. As for Falcons flight model........theres a porked flight model IMHO. 9G at 50,000 feet? yeah right! And one of F/A-18 programmers said the FM in that was bust, refueling was 20 times harder than it is in real life... I see falcon as a mess around as there is too much to learn...... I think the real pilots have it easier, press button here or here, or remember keystroke ctrl-alt-a-s-s, shift-s-o-m-e-t-h-i-n-g. Oh theres a light come on......but what does it do? The only reason that Falcon is good is because you can do your own mods and stuff to it, lets be honest now....Falcon would have been slated if it wasn't for a little illegal act of letting the code go "missing". Still the flight model is naffed, why don't I stop playing it? cos I stay too close to the ground to give a damn, give me a sim where I can to terrain following at 60ft and feel the sense of having my ass straped to a rocket and I am happy. Less things to kill you at low level only the ground that really maters.

People slate a flight model without even knowing what the real thing can do, and that does get on my bits. The Eurofighter has a hell of a lot of thrust as it is, and by 2015 it will have more, 2030 even more, and even possibly with 3D thrust vectoring. Next thing we know we will have people saying the F-15 can actually do mach 2.5

Im off to play on superbike, where there are no flight model worries, no weapons, no "motherships", just 160HP on two wheels with plenty of walls to crash into...... or I shall go learn to ride a real one

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[This message has been edited by valleyboy (edited 08-10-2001).]


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#562144 - 08/10/01 07:38 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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I know just how impressive the Typhoon is.
But can it take off in less than 7 seconds with a full warload? (Bombs, gas tanks, AAMs) Can it go Mach 2 with its gear down. Can it accelerate up to around 70k feet?

Nope.

It can do some bloody impressive stuff, but it can't do that. An F-22 can't do that.

And the not-working very well Brimstones are a pain in the butt, as are the not very accurate long range missiles. I understand why this is so: it is a design feature to make you dogfight with cannons and asraams, which are effective.

But that's beside the point. These are niggles that could be stopped (maybe a "complex" flight model activation). And I have no idea about the "porked" Falcon 4 flight model above 50k because... I have never had any reason to be above 50K. :-) I feel vulnerable above fifty feet! A legacy of many hours playing EF2000!

My general commentary/complaints about Typhoon is that it could be a lot more, and it represents a great jump off point for newbies. The game is fine as is, but Rage really should build on it: larger map (Scandinavia!!) a more complex cockpit (TAW style - you don't need switches, just some graphics to help you feel like you are in the cockpit) and maybe some more avionics (PIRATE and radar modes) and then you will have something, combined with Typhoons excellent graphics, cool sounds, atmosphere, and flight model and amazing AI that will lure in the newbies, and keep the hardcore crowd happy.

Gavin

#562145 - 08/10/01 08:00 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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I've got a friend working at EB in Bournemouth, and he said that EFT has one of the highest return rates of a game that he has seen.

OTOH, Operation Flashpoint is also being returned by quite a number of people.

Cheers,
Manteau

#562146 - 08/10/01 09:11 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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Quote:

My general commentary/complaints about Typhoon is that it could be a lot more, and it represents a great jump off point for newbies. The game is fine as is, but Rage really should build on it: larger map (Scandinavia!!) a more complex cockpit (TAW style - you don't need switches, just some graphics to help you feel like you are in the cockpit) and maybe some more avionics (PIRATE and radar modes) and then you will have something, combined with Typhoons excellent graphics, cool sounds, atmosphere, and flight model and amazing AI that will lure in the newbies, and keep the hardcore crowd happy.

Gavin[/B]


I very much agree with it. After all EF2000 was this.
I simply cant stay in Typhoon cockpit because it feels like I have some kind of gelly in my gogles and I can't play with full screen HUDs. I need the cockpit around me to fly and feel IMMERSION...
Lots of eyecandy in explosions, missile trails, etc... etc... and what about the cockpit - the place where the pilot is supposed to be and watch all the eyecandy around?

#562147 - 08/10/01 10:22 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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I think all the things that are mentioned here that aren't right about Typhoon are what makes this sim a entry level, beginner sim. If you make everything as real as possible then you have a hard core flight sim that would intimidate many newbies. To me USAF is a mid level sim. Beginners or dabblers or newbies aren't looking for tons of buttons and MFD's. They want simplicity, good graphics, and be able to blow shit up with a reasonable amount of things that make it feel like flying a fighter plane. Many of the issues that have been brought up here won't even be noticed by the beginner, but the hard core eye will notice it for sure. We just can't hold every flight sim up to a single high end standard.

#562148 - 08/10/01 10:30 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  
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Quote:
Originally posted by MIGMaster:
I read the review, but as with most of the reviews coming out of Gamespot ( and CGW for that matter ) they are of decreasing quality. Since Denny Aitken and Johnny Wilson left there has been a significant decline in quality both at the mag and site. It is rather amazing to me that somebody could post a review that far off base, especially from a veteran reviewer such as Tom Chick. All I can say is that his review is of dubious quality to a person looking at picking up Typhoon. Most other reviewers have given it a 7.5 or up, even the UK version of Gamespot if I'm not mistaken.


Good points MIGMaster. Typhoon has it's problems, but I wouldn't give it the poor rating that Gamespot game it. yes..the wait times between mission are a pain; but I've found AI pilots to be better then the review implies. But yes..it's you're looking for Falcon 4 or even EF-2000 while playing Typhoon you're liable to be disappointed (and give it a bad review).

7.5-8 is what I'd give it. If Steve can open up the campaign as he intends..my rating would go much higher. The campaign is what interests me (too caught up in gameplay to worry bout how quick it can take-off; for example. So what! Unless it effects gameplay it doesn't bother me) and there is BIG potential there.



[This message has been edited by Uroboros (edited 08-10-2001).]

#562149 - 08/11/01 02:12 AM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  
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In the course of the review I'm writing (I'm one of the hacks who's been reviewing for CGW and CGM for the last five or six years - Denny's a friend and I sure miss him as an editor) I gave Typhoon to a couple of friends who are newbies. It's often diffcult for those of us who have been simming a while (I started computer gaming in 1979 and have been simming since SubLogic's FS1) to judge what a beginner really does and doesn't like.

Both friends had flown one or two "lite" sims, but not very heavily. Both started out liking Typhoon (for the first hour or so) but quickly found a lot they didn't like. I watched, and didn't help - trying to observe what a beginner would actually experience. Both hated the fact that as they switched from pilot to pilot the pilot they left behind would screw up - eventually I stepped in and showed them they needed to engage the autopilot. Even then, they hated having to jump from one pilot to another, and neither liked having to micromanage (in their words) things like loadouts on flights they weren't flying. The air to ground aspects were frustrating to them, as were some of the "smart" air to air missiles - they never could figure out why they were missing so often and became disgusted. They both (independently, they were each playing at their own homes) said they much preferred a "fighter game" where they only played as a single pilot. Each also was baffled thay there was no instant action or standalone missions. There was quite a bit more, but frankly neither was very happy with the game.

For my review, I can only write my own observation as someone who has flown and reviewed just about every sim out there, lite and heavy (and I enjoy a good lite sim.) I wrote the review before observing these guys, but frankly they reflected a lot more of what Tom was talking about than what folks here may expect.

FWIW,

Jeff Lackey

#562150 - 08/11/01 03:06 AM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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Jeff you make an interesting post and I like the lil experiment you conducted. (shows that it ain't what you say it is how you say it) While performing review, I had friends stop by and I showed them what I was doing. Most were impressed and said it seemed easy enough. I did have one that was just flabberghasted at how it worked but he hates computers and has never owned one I think next time I will let them fiddle with it more to get a better read on their ability to navigate the sim. Thanks for the post and I'll be looking forward to reading your review.

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"...On the bloody morning after, One tin soldier rides away!"

#562151 - 08/11/01 03:38 AM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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To me where the Big Lie starts and ends...

Is in this assumption that "We're supposed to like and enjoy _the game_ enough to help out the poor novice in getting a better experience for later advanced to hardcore 'sims'."

At the same time we are supposed to live in our ivory towers of 'higher simming', maintaining our elevation above the madding morons with aging G-engines and dated timeframes/physics models (almost always processor related if not restrained, somewhere).

That a /game/ like Typhoon even shows UP in a site labelled _SimHQ_ shows that the barbarians are Well Past The Gates with No Legions Left to save Rome.

While helping a novitiate out in a shooter demands that we both go snorkling in the cesspool and that the game have some element of unporked physics based reality on which all our collective 'experience' can provide some useful assist.

Get a clue folks. This is a game made for cheat codes and 'left left right fire down fire fire FIRE!' pwaythtaythun button reflex programming.

That they use the Eurofighter (a real jet) as the vehicle base for the science fiction opera *is* a cheap trick lure to the hard core in a _game_ that could as easily support a totally ficititious airframe (ala CSkies) with a lot less bitching and moaning about 'Whut it's s'pozed 2B?'.

There is no use asking for a 'mixed experience', variability, by difficulty or realism soft switches in the setup screens. That just _adds_ complexity while -assuming- the intelligence and knowledge to differentiat fact from fiction in the developer.

You either design for _simming_ (neither hard nor soft but _physical reality based_, including weapons systems and campaign assault/logistics/maneuver/endgame phase effects).

Or you design for 'gaming'. At which point physical reality is no longer involved at all. And Simulation as a definition should not be fraudulently used at all.


Kurt Plummer

#562152 - 08/11/01 05:03 AM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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Kurt:

Under the recipe you are promoting, then every sim should be held against the highest sim and graded by that curve. That is unfair. Just because it is a lite sim, doesn't mean it isn't a sim. Each person has their own thought of what a simulation is. An example, some see USAF as a beginner sim, where others see it as a mid level sim. Being you, you will always grade everything you see as a study sim and grade it against that standard and anything that doesn't make the grade isn't a sim. To you, that is fine. Apply that same standard to the gaming/simulation industry as a whole, that is the ingredient for a disaster. Judge them on their merit and their marketing. If they claim it is the end all sim, then review and grade it as such. If they claim it isn't a study sim or a hard core sim, review it a grade it at that level. If that sim isn't your cup of tea because it isn't hard core enough, then don't come on boards and newsgroups and slam the sim because you don't like it. There are hard core sims that don't appeal to me, but I don't slam them for that and go out of my way to point out every nitpicking thing wrong.

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Dusty "Redwolf" Rhodes
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[This message has been edited by Dusty Rhodes (edited 08-11-2001).]

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