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#562153 - 08/11/01 06:25 AM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  
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Like Kurt would ever be happy with any sim...hardcore or lite you know that it will prompt a long, hard to understand, post by him eventually

I'm not going to argue the merits of Typhoon, you like it or hate it. I happen to like it even if certain design features annoy me to no end. But I keep coming back to the game whereas Max Payne has started to BORE me (a game of a different genre suposely so great that people are drooling over)

BUT..Steve if you're still reading us, I implore you guys to get out a patch to fix a few things.

1. Reduce the wait time between mission NOW! I wonder now what you guys intended the player to do for the 20 minutes between a mission being assigned and actually flown. If these quiet moments did not occur during play testing..we all must be doing something wrong.

Have the campaign engine give more mission to the player..anything. Hard to play the game for a quick fix when there is a chance that you'll have to wait 20 from the time you start it up to fly.

2. USB joystick fix.

I mention those 2 things as priority becuase they're the ones that stare right back at you when you play the game. (other things can wait IMHO). They're the things that will more than likely turn off people who might otherwise enjoy the game (and are less forgiving) But please don't wait till the possible add-on to fix these important things (hey will take whatever other fixes you can squeeze out); it will be too late IMHO.

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#562154 - 08/11/01 12:14 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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Quote:
Originally posted by *Hengist*:
However, Typhoon is an excellent entry level game for the beginner who wants to experience some of the joys of a combat flight sim.

So, is the reviews claim of waiting for over ten minutes to get on playing untrue? There's no way an "exellent entry level game" can have that kindo of boring, idle game time.

I think jefflackey's post is very, very good. It seems to me a lot of you saying Typhoon being ideal for nebies have a belitling, patronising and misguided view on flight sim beginners.

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#562155 - 08/11/01 12:23 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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Lawgiver: I agree totally with your comment.
To assume that a newbie means braindead is very arrogant and is what gives serious simmers a bad name. Most already think of us as elitist with a anal-retentive problem.
There is definite potential with Typhoon, but it really doesn't hit a bulls eye with anything.
YMMV

#562156 - 08/11/01 02:29 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  
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Jeff

I can't argue with your overall comment...but I would like to point out that the offline co-op missions provide exactly the "instant action" gameplay that your friends were looking for.

Andy

#562157 - 08/11/01 02:53 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  
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The review covered very good points and *also* pointed out the terrible mundane ones as well(Downtime and the "dumb" Brimstones)
Typhoon was a fun game.....until the end!
Then it totally lost the plot.
Flightsim,litesim went out the window.
It became another "Incoming" from Rage(their influence definitely) and was no longer fun at all to try and finish.

If the ending had kept reason with the game then it would have been very good. I still can't get over how "we" as NATO couldn't have had a special weapon up our sleves other than to try and shoot down Rage's spaceship with A/G rocket's........Or was it another Bobby Ewing in the shower dream that didn't happen

Tracer

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#562158 - 08/11/01 06:22 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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A few are reading into the review too much. No one is saying that lite simmers are braindead. Just because you aren't hard core doesn't mean you are braindead, it means that you have different likes and look for different motivations to play the the maniac crowd. That is not belittling or patronizing, it is trying to show why the sim would appeal to them as it has what they are looking for.

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#562159 - 08/11/01 06:34 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  
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"I can't argue with your overall comment...but I would like to point out that the offline co-op missions provide exactly the "instant action" gameplay that your friends were looking for."

I hear ya, Andy - but it never occurred to these novices to go looking into multiplayer for their "instant action." They're looking for the button that says "Instant Action" or "Single Missions", as in the other lite sims they've played. I think this is just a spot where the guys missed a chance to make Typhoon more novice friendly.

Jeff

#562160 - 08/11/01 10:16 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  
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Quote:
Originally posted by CRASH - SimHQ:
"Aimed at new flight sim enthusiasts (and people looking for a casual simming experience without having to read a 600 page manual) to strategically minded gamers, Typhoon covers many aspects."


Hi Crash, I'm sorry but I have to go against what you said a little in that review... I'm not a hardcore fan... in F4 I just dont have a clue but I do have lots of fun... I'd like to think of myself as a 'casual' simmer... because although I've played a lot of sims... I rarely fly them into the ground like a lot of people seem to do here (with the previous D.i.D games being an exception) ... as far as the 600 page manual goes... I loved the pretty pictures... do I care about the actual range of a sidewinder? urm... nope ... and before I ask.. apart from 'timing' what exactly is 'strategically minded' about typhoon?

I dont want a flame war *lol*
and I'm not saying you wrote a bad review..
but I think you were maybe a little biased and too 'positive' towards the game and maybe the 'dying' flightsim genre in general.

I bought Typhoon to shoot down endless amounts of Mig29s... not motherlands and certainly not for it to end like the second Independance day movie... how few d.i.d games have ever done that?

a litesim is realistic but simple... (Ie TFX by todays 'standards')
Typhoon... well... its certainly simplistic.

I was never at E3.. I hardly read reviews of them usually because it usually makes me jelous of the next 679888787965ghz processor thats just comming out lol...

In all the previews of Typhoon that I've read... they always put the impression across that this was a flightsim... and not some far fetched arcade game that just bleated for the 'insert coin' prompt to come up when a player died like it does everytime I ran out of credits playing UN Squadron (Area 51 for those in the US) on the callus emulator. I so much wanted to be able to taxi and take off on my own accord... I'm sorry but as far as 'sims' go.. I feel that is something that should be clearly stated in a review of a flight sim !!...

again... not a flame... I did admittedly get some good eyecandy for a while and I think being such a did fan if the game got 1/10 I'd of still bought it for namesake... D.i.D fortunatly tho... for my banks sake if nothing else... my next purchase will either be OFP or the addon for mech 4 and I'm afraid to say I wont be so eager for the next title as I was the last.

I loved the B17 review.. and wish desperately that I'd read that before the day after I bought the game. I just feel that this has been pushed as something that its not for the 'flightsim' community, certainly atleast in the UK.

cheers,
Ian.

P.S. The N64 promised the world a few years ago at E3... what did it actually do?


P.S.S This is going to sound really bad but I dont care... I guess I got my moneys worth out of the game... I too did a 'test' and leant it aka crying to be copied Typhoon to 2 friends... One of which was a flightsim fanatic (and also a nascar fanatic if you remember my other post...) the other being a very much fps quake x, decent x, ect x and neither of them liked it at all! at the same time I leant both of them the patches to F4 (not the original game as they already had bought it years ago and gave up)..

so really I split 30 three ways... a tenner... otoh it was one of those friends that leant me Tactcom... and then TAW that made me go out and buy those two games in the first place !

atm I've just remembered to inform them that unless they are using a nvida card (which they arent) then my patches are degrading (if not useless)... So I have these two friends with a new game... eyecandy r us... who are gagging to find out where to download the i2 patches instead of the efalcon patches rather than playing a totally 2001 brand new shrink wrapped hot off the shelf I-need-a-450mhz-chip-to-run-well and all they care about is "where the hell are your links for i2??"... (all my Efalcon ones came to about 230+ mb)

I admit... its NOT possible and I say this before F5 comes out to make a game like Falcon4 (as it is now) with the time and effort put in by the enthusiasts... but it really doesnt show much for D.i.D when my friends who have totally different expectations would rather play a game that came out 4 years ago never mind one that came out 4 months or so ago.... I wouldnt be able to understand that unless I too had personally played Typhoon....

'timing' between craft...
lack of manual take off..
motherlands....
dodgy firepower
structured missions

both of them worked that out without my bitching !. (and honest to god I did try so hard not to tell them what would happen in the end.

I could see D.i.Ds view if they pleased one out of the two... but the point is it didnt.

Crash, you say you threw 20 years of simming out the window to play this game... where in your review back then did you even emply 10 years nevermind 20?

so, throw me in jail for piracy.... but atleast I never made them waste their money on a game they wouldn't like!. OTOH again ... if it werent for those people my 50 would have stayed firmly in my pocket without them !

And before I'm asked... no... neither of them did make a copy of it and no.. I didnt have it installed on my hdisk when either of them had a loan of it... in the warez comunity a real user will 'steal' and then buy in what they believe in.... In the case of my 2 friends (And in mine if I hadnt already bought it)... neither of us would have 'stole' it in the first place knowing the outcome.


Sad isn't it? why copy a label when its not worth the shirt that its stitched on...

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[This message has been edited by Vaider-Raider (edited 08-11-2001).]

#562161 - 08/11/01 11:29 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  
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Quote:
Originally posted by -Dot-:
EFT stays on the HD in memory of EF2000, but just for that.


Well said Dot... I'd totally agree with you on that one.... but then EFT was given up so I could create more swapfile space on my 80gig drives... for college work believe it or not *lol*.

OTOH I did buy it in the first place and the box admittedly is bootifull (minus the Rage logo)so maybe that does count towards something of D.i.D and the Eurofighter/F22 legacy that they has by the looks of it left since being bought over by rage....

R.i.P D.i.D

And Rage... make good use of those returned cd's.... wouldn't like them to be burnt in some incinerator somewhere (although that might be the most fitting option).

Ian.

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[This message has been edited by Vaider-Raider (edited 08-11-2001).]

#562162 - 08/12/01 12:10 AM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vaider-Raider:
I dont want a flame war *lol*
and I'm not saying you wrote a bad review..
but I think you were maybe a little biased and too 'positive' towards the game and maybe the 'dying' flightsim genre in general.



In Crash's defense (not that he needs it); someone could just as easily say that maybe you're a little biased and too 'negative' about the game because they happen to disagree with you. No?

In the end it's all one person's opinion nothing more. No person's opinion is anymore valid then another's in this case? Thank gawd!

Oh yeah...Personally I hate taxing to the runway; find it boring. But hey that's my bias.

[This message has been edited by Uroboros (edited 08-11-2001).]

#562163 - 08/12/01 02:37 AM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Uroboros:
In Crash's defense (not that he needs it); someone could just as easily say that maybe you're a little biased and too 'negative' about the game because they happen to disagree with you. No?
(edited 08-11-2001).]



I'm only being biased in that 99% of real world flying games require you to do the right shtuff before take off... not biased towards the 1% that not only show you some luverly-wanna-see-once videoclip and wont let you skip that and get down to business
:-)

Ian.


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#562164 - 08/12/01 12:53 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Dusty Rhodes:
A few are reading into the review too much. No one is saying that lite simmers are braindead. Just because you aren't hard core doesn't mean you are braindead, it means that you have different likes and look for different motivations to play the the maniac crowd. That is not belittling or patronizing, it is trying to show why the sim would appeal to them as it has what they are looking for.


I don't own the game, and I haven't read your eview, so naturally I'm not really commenting them, but I do stand behid my words about flight simmers vs. flight sim beginners. It seems that whenever someone critisises Typhoon, the counter argument is pretty much: "But it isn't supposed be Falcon 4. It's for the newbies!" Well, that just sounds like an excuse. The language used isn't very convincing, and this being internet, language is everything. It sounds almost like saying - not neccessary conciously - somwhere between the lines: "I don't really like this. It must be for the newbies". That was my point.

As for virtues of simplicity, it depends if the simplisity means streamlinedness and easiness to understand or mere lack of options. The former is just good design for any game - including HC fligh sims -, the latter just lack of design. In my personal opinion the best way to introduce new people to HC flight sims is to design them well. Jane's F/A-18 with user made tutorial missions (the official ones just sucked) running on todays machines is a quite good example. It's mission have clear objectives and there good sence of someone actually leading the forces, the interface is clear and intuitive, the user made tutorials tell what to press and most importanly why and the game looks also very pretty. This casual simmer found F/A-18 very accessible. As a contrast, I find Falcon 4 very confusing. Yet, no one can say F/A-18 is somehow compromised.

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#562165 - 08/12/01 03:09 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  
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Hi Lawgiver,

the popup menu system is pretty cheap and tacky looking IMO ... might have done better as the new GUI for Windows Xp... Its a personal prefrence I guess but it is quite obvious that more time was spent on the UI for EF2000 or TAW than Typhoon... I've never played F/A-18 but the reason I'm quite able to get by the confusion in F4 is that I simply just ignore it *s* until I find out I need it and then go and find out how it works...

I totally agree 100% with you that a game can be as complex as it wants but as long as its simple, clear and intuitive then that LEARNING CURVE will catapult you to all the required bits without trouble..... Typhoons learning curve flatlines... Its green.. its mean and it looks and works like something out of playdays (a uk kids tv program).

The peacetime missions of typhoon just teach you parrot fashion how to fly the plane and have few to nil tutorial missions apart from telling you what, that window that just popped up in your face is when its really quite blatently obvious.

I had more 'fun' fighting the pop-ups than the aircraft.... *wonders if he can get webwasher for typhoon*

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Uroboros:
Oh yeah...Personally I hate taxing to the runway; find it boring. But hey that's my bias. [/QUOTE

Uroboros,

Its not a biased view by any means... I really do love the way d.i.d have made games in the past and none of them were ever aimed soley at the hardcore simmer.

From what it looks like ... people seem to get confused with biasm and opinion... why does the fact that I dislike the game make me biased? or the fact you do like the game and are biased? Like you have niggles about Typhoon... I have niggles about EECH... but they are small enough to live with and the rest of the game is what 'we' wanted.

to say that the Eurofighter will be better than the f22 (because I'm european) and knows bugger all about the ins and out would be biased.

To say rhetorically that the f22 will be better mainly due to the implementation of vector thrust is an opinion based on a fact.

though you could possibly argue that the fly-by-wire aerodynamics of the EF will make it a generally more manoverable aircraft...

I'm not saying any of the above two statements are true... but they arent biased.

You say that taxiing to the runway is boring... then dont taxi *lol* click runway if your playing F4, press shift-s in TAW to skip events..... dont you get bored also watching the same movie before takeoff in Typhoon.... how do you skip that?

But then again... is your 'biasm' of hating taxing based soley on the fact that you would appear to be more into helo games that dont require a runway in the first place? Or.... is that just an opinion.

I'm not by any means thrashing Crash's review of Typhoon... there are good points that he stated also that I agee with but the bad ones appeared to be a little watered down... and most magazines etc IMO would have been more willing to detail ( maybe gamespot stepped on the cats tail a little too hard here)Typhoon has been stated at the very beginning by Rage as a sim... so it should be rated like a sim... If someone is going to turn round and tell me that it shouldnt be rated like a 'real' sim then it should be rated like something else... arcade, rpg etc whatever... but doing so goes back on the very truth that was stated in the beginning.

Isnt it funny that the only thing that calls the game a sim on the back of the box a third party reviews quote (PC Arena)

"A Truly exceptional jet sim" ~ PC Arena

"flight game" to quote Rage officially...

a WHOLE load of ambiguity if your standing in the middle of a busy EB store looking at screenshots of real Mig aircraft to come home to find that the motherland is after you !! heheh

Cheers,

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Vaider-Raider

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because I'm not all there"

[This message has been edited by Vaider-Raider (edited 08-12-2001).]

#562166 - 08/12/01 03:41 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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The utterly, staggering, insurmountable problem with Typhoon?

It's by DID.
It's featuring the EF2000.

Now rough hew it how you will, any red blooded, god fearing fan of EF2000 wanted hi-res graphics, 3d sounds, a 24 hour dynamic campaign and some excellent DID issue air warfare action.

And then they release Eurofighter Typhoon.

Now despite everything, despite the marketting... any EF2000 fan who saw the box in a shop will immediately jump for joy and go: excellent, a sequel to EF2000. Nowhere on the box does this suggest a "ID4" ending. Nowhere on the box is there a suggestion of "action game." The box makes all the right noises about what you'd expect from a sequel to EF2000.

As a result, despite prior rumblings on the net about low-res cockpits, about "simplified" avionics and "dogfighting" rather than BVR air combat (nothing wrong with that either), this game is going to be judged as a sequel to EF2000. And as a sequel to EF2000, users are going to quibble with the motherships, the ACM enhanced cruise missiles, the motherships, et al. They are going to quibble with the "dumbed down" Meteors and Brimstones.

The obvious solution is to cater to both. A "default" and complex" mode. Default: everything remains pretty much as-is in the Carrier Ops add-on. Complex: no motherlands, better BVR missiles, CF-18s rather than Viggens, a tweaked flight model, to be a little less cosmic. And get rid of that ugly "prototype." The Typhoon is one of the coolest fighters on the planet. That prototype looks silly.

Gavin

#562167 - 08/12/01 04:11 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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I agree with a lot of the comments here.

If people walk into a shop, and see "Typhoon", with a DID logo at the bottom and a picture of EF2000, they're going to think sequel, no matter what you do.

Having a quote from a test pilot of the RAF saying something to the effect of "most accurate flight model seen yet for EFT", will not help either.

And as far as I'm concerned, the "not meant to be a hard-core sim" arguement doesn't cut it either.

Yes, several of us were here before it came out and saw this warning, but how many people have bought the game, gone to the web page, got to the links section and found this forum?

Quite a few I would have imagined.

They're then told AFTERWARDS that it has been made clear all along that it wasn't a hardcore sim.

I'm not going to go through all the normal rambulings (sp?) about why it needs to be improved, why it doesn't have to be a hardcore sim, but some things need to be improved, etc, as most of us are sick and tired of them.

I agree with Gavin, in that two modes are needed, and we can choose between them.

Apart from the carrier addon (which we've heard nothing about recently), Rage appear to have left Typhoon for dead.

IMO, from the adverts I've seen and from the Box, and the reviews, Rage have marketted this wrong. They could have stated the differences more obviously. The only thing in the adverts I can think of that was different, is the wording to the effect of : "manage a squradron (sp?) of flighter pilots battling to save Iceland".

Expecting the relatively realistic past of DID, in terms of weapons modelling and campaigns, most of them are probably going to be in for a real shock.

I'm not saying the game isn't fun - it is - but it could be fun AND (more) realistic.

Cheers,
Manteau

Edit: Major spellings, sorry!

[This message has been edited by Manteau (edited 08-12-2001).]

#562168 - 08/12/01 04:12 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gavin Bennett:
The utterly, staggering, insurmountable problem with Typhoon?

It's by DID.
It's featuring the EF2000.

Now rough hew it how you will, any red blooded, god fearing fan of EF2000 wanted hi-res graphics, 3d sounds, a 24 hour dynamic campaign and some excellent DID issue air warfare action.

And then they release Eurofighter Typhoon.
Gavin



EXACTLY Gavin... congrats to Rage for playing their customers ! slap on the back for EB having return policies !

If that had been properly sorted out in the first place then there would NOT be so many disgruntled posts in the forum... tho maybe there might just be far fewer posts in the forum in general... and fewer pennies in Rages pocket.

I thought the prototype was quite good easter egg... what options did they have?
a UFO.. or a prototype... you had the UFO in TAW... and some might suggest that is exactly where the motherland in Typhoon came from in the first place... hehe

Ian.


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#562169 - 08/12/01 05:01 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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Gavin's comments are on target. If Typhoon is indeed a great marketing fiasco...it will be because even today Rage's marketing department doesn't understand what kind of a target audience this product is for. On one hand there isn't enough fast action to satisfy a casual shooter who wants to blow up stuff (c'mon, when you want to blow up things you're not going to spend 30 minutes waiting for something to occur in the real-time campaign) and on the other there isn't enough detail to keep a more ambitious player interested. Great, if painful lesson on the importance of succesful GAME DESIGN (don't confuse with the programming or the artwork creation)

[This message has been edited by MonsterZero (edited 08-12-2001).]

#562170 - 08/12/01 05:20 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  
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Quote:
Originally posted by MonsterZero:
Gavin's comments are on target. If Typhoon is indeed a great marketing fiasco...it will be because even today Rage's marketing department doesn't understand what kind of a target audience this product is for.



Said that before lol *s* got flamegrilled and stirfried over it.... 3 months later...

*sniffles*
Ian.




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#562171 - 08/12/01 07:55 PM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  

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Of course! The prototype and the motherland could have made PERFECT easter eggs, ie, press ctrl+shift+m (or something) in the campaign screen, which lets you into a daylong campaign against an Alien Invasion...maybe even the alien invasion from Incoming, and it would have been the coolest little feature. Rage gets to advertise Incoming. We get to play our tedious old campaign with tedious old fighters like MiGs and so on, and we would not have known or cared about it. We might even find it fun as a couple of days worth of diversion. DID could even use the UFOs from TAW!

I really want to play and love Typhoon. But no throttle, odd lockups and the fact that there is that mothership thing out there waiting for me...goddamnit, don't want to know till Carrier Ops comes out.

Gavin

#562172 - 08/13/01 05:23 AM Re: Typhoon Gets Very Poor Score at Gamespot  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gavin Bennett:
The utterly, staggering, insurmountable problem with Typhoon?

It's by DID.
It's featuring the EF2000.

Now rough hew it how you will, any red blooded, god fearing fan of EF2000 wanted hi-res graphics, 3d sounds, a 24 hour dynamic campaign and some excellent DID issue air warfare action.

And then they release Eurofighter Typhoon.

Now despite everything, despite the marketting... any EF2000 fan who saw the box in a shop will immediately jump for joy and go: excellent, a sequel to EF2000. Nowhere on the box does this suggest a "ID4" ending. Nowhere on the box is there a suggestion of "action game." The box makes all the right noises about what you'd expect from a sequel to EF2000.

As a result, despite prior rumblings on the net about low-res cockpits, about "simplified" avionics and "dogfighting" rather than BVR air combat (nothing wrong with that either), this game is going to be judged as a sequel to EF2000. And as a sequel to EF2000, users are going to quibble with the motherships, the ACM enhanced cruise missiles, the motherships, et al. They are going to quibble with the "dumbed down" Meteors and Brimstones.

Gavin


I'm sorry Gavin but I have to disagree with you here. The game was NEVER advertised as hardcore and certainly wasn't advertised as a sequel to EF-2000. NEVER. It's unfortunate that those less informed might think this..but is that really Rage/DID's fault? Do you beleive that Rage should've somehow plastered on the box..in big BOLD letters

"THIS IS NOT A SEQUEL TO EF-2000!"

I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe that any "god fearing fan of EF2000" wasn't informed about what Typhoon was MONTHS ago. They would have heard about it (and what it was like) on any of the sim web sites. Or the sim newsgroups or the EF-2000 mailing list. Any of those places of quite sure that the "god fearing fan of EF2000" frequents.

If Rage/DID had promoted the game as hardcore or a sequel to EF-2000, I'd be more inclined to agree with your arguement and blame Rage/DID for shattering people expections and assumptions. (like Felix Unger says..never assume ) As it stands all you can blame Rage/DID for is the choices they made with this game. Some ideas work, some don't.

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