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#561666 - 07/10/01 08:30 PM I just don't understand it!.....  

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This is probably going to be my last post on this board for a bit...

I really don't understand how Rage could create a game that was so far on a tangent away from the original.

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought EF2000 (and the later versions) was the best selling flight simulator EVER, bar MS Flight Sim on the PC.

And when it came out, what was it known for?:

* Unprecedented realism graphics wise - Typhoon has this just about, so fair enough

* Dynamic(ish) campaign, that was realistic, i.e. no motherlands

* Relatively hardcore (definitely for it's time) - the different Radar modes were there (okay, the full aircraft's got 33 of them, but you get my point - you could change range, elevation, turn it on/off, select targets from it)

* Realistic flight model (I think Typhoon's got this)

* Realistic Weapons (for the ones known - the ASRAAM and S-225 were obviously guessed at, but they were realistic - I'm not saying accurate, but thereabouts)

* Refuelling

* Multiplayer campaign

The list goes on.

A lot of people at the time (IMO, anyway - and friends at the time) got the game because:

* New to flightsims - and liked it - if they liked a hardcore flightsim then FFS, why won't they now, IF it's got what they want

* It was British - I never thought much about this aspect at the time, but looking back, I think it may have been quite important

* It was realistic

---

I'm not saying Typhoon's a disaster, I'm just saying a large number of people (they may be the minority, I don't know) are moaning not about bugs, like F4, MigAlley or BoB, but about the game itself.

Granted it would have taken longer to add things like multiplayer campaign, etc, but if it was done in 1995 and was a complete success, although admittedly the hardcore market may have diminished, I seriously think people would be interested in a game like EF2000, but with fantastic updated graphics.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right - I'm just posting my opinion.

As a sidenote, anyone know where I can/could get Super EF2000?

Cheers,
Manteau

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#561667 - 07/10/01 08:50 PM Re: I just don't understand it!.....  

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I have to agree.

Typhoon is a very cool little game, that looks great, and is pretty amusing, and challenging.

Only.

It's not SEF2k. Granted, it wasn't meant to be, but ....

I think its time to seriously look at creating an ultimate TFX game, combining the best of all the games that have come before. It does not have to be super hardcore -we all know how easy the typhoon is to fly. It just needs some _optional_ avionics at the level of TAW or SEF2k. It needs to maintain that same compelling atmosphere of EF2000. EF2000 is the only game that I actually start fretting when the enemy advances. I know how difficult things will be if the enemy gets any further south.

This graphics engine has the potential to power such a sim. We already have the campaign AI, the dogfighting AI, and the flight model. Just add an optional drag mode.

The scenario I would envisage would be a huge map, bigger than TAW's or Jane's F-15's map. I am talking from Greenland in the West, to Belarus in the East. From the Arctic Circle in the North, to Northern Scotland in the South.

We need the AWACS back.

We need to have RAF E-3 patroling the North Sea, and the GIUK gap, vectoring fighters against Backfire raids and surfaced Russian subs, and intercepting air raids on the UK PLC.

We need to see the Battle of Norway again, in real time. We need to watch as the RN faces off against the Russian navy.

We need to have a NATO invasion of the Baltic states.

Gavin

#561668 - 07/10/01 09:03 PM Re: I just don't understand it!.....  

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Jane's F/A-18

-.-

#561669 - 07/10/01 11:24 PM Re: I just don't understand it!.....  

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With a bigger map, a zippier plan, the Royal Air Force, and the DID heritage.

:-)

Gavin

#561670 - 07/10/01 11:31 PM Re: I just don't understand it!.....  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Gavin Bennett:
With a bigger map, a zippier plan, the Royal Air Force, and the DID heritage.


Yeah,

Post that map Gavin.

Cheers,
Manteau

#561671 - 07/11/01 05:07 AM Re: I just don't understand it!.....  

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Now THIS is what we are talking about.



Prime DID territory, in the Royal Air Force's backyard, and damn cool!

Gavin

#561672 - 07/11/01 08:07 AM Re: I just don't understand it!.....  

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i don't know about u guys.....but i'm giving up on this sim! can't understand the gameplay of this, maybe dats why they call it REALISTIC SIMPLE...

#561673 - 07/11/01 09:14 AM Re: I just don't understand it!.....  

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I actually had the heart to reinstall EFT yesterday, just for the sake of "stunt flying" in flyby and external mode. Now that part + the sound in external mode is IMO really well done in EFT !

My bottom line for EFT is:

If the end mission would not suck so much and the cockpit were done realistic thus clickable, I'd rate this a (very) fine and userfriendly Typhoon showcase...um SIM,

Though very incomplete (no instant action missions and a mission builder)

But with potential regarding Add ons.

I like the Tornado, Saab Gripen aso cutscenes and SU-37 in EFT (not playable understandebly for the Typhoon rules supreme here -but not in endmission !???) and admittedly quite repetetive after a while).

There's a lot more to say ofcourse but I leave it to that.

#561674 - 07/11/01 11:22 AM Re: I just don't understand it!.....  

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Ever since I found out about the Motherland ending, I stopped flying EFT. I was only towards the start of day two. Just couldn't believe the end would happen that way. Completely took all the desire away, not to mention some of the other problems it's got.
It really is a shame. This game could have been huge. But I did learn some things about buying software that I will never forget. I guess 40 buck for a lesson in finances isn't too bad.

#561675 - 07/11/01 12:19 PM Re: I just don't understand it!.....  

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I flew the campaign once. The final mission made me never want to fly it again. Do I feel ripped off? Nah, it was only 30 quid. It did keep me entertained for a few days. How long would 30 quid last down the pub on a night out? A couple of hours perhaps? In that respect, I got my money's worth out of Typhoon.

As for the negatives, no need to repeat them here

P.S. I still wish the publishers would increase the price for a sim and give the developers more free reign/time to make a kick ass sim, instead of the usual half baked crap we seem to see these days.

Sims have been roughly the same price now for the last 10 years. I know my wage isn't the same as it was 10 years ago.... It's a lot more

------------------


Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

[This message has been edited by *Hengist* (edited 07-11-2001).]

#561676 - 07/11/01 12:22 PM Re: I just don't understand it!.....  

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C'mon Coffee, what's 40 bucks FCOL That's what I make (bill) in 20 minutes. Bet it took Rage/Did longer to make it

#561677 - 07/11/01 01:18 PM Re: I just don't understand it!.....  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,364
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,364
Quote:
Originally posted by Manteau:
I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought EF2000 (and the later versions) was the best selling flight simulator EVER, bar MS Flight Sim on the PC.

As a sidenote, anyone know where I can/could get Super EF2000?

Cheers,
Manteau


EF2000 was bought and used as a training simulator for the RAF -it cost 4Million and the quote was that: The PC version had *better* graphics and colour!

As to where to buy EF2000 V2?
I bought it from Chips&Bits Manteau
http://www.cdmag.com/chips.html
It came with the original 300+ page manual,keycard,Win95& DOS 3DFX/Rendition install(weighed about 1 1/2lb)

EF2000 Version 2 W95/DOS CD KA Simulation 07/97 $ 12.95

10-20 day's shipment(i got mine in 6!)
A quick conversion for total cost inc postage;

1
$ 12.95
$ 12.95
EF2000 Version 2 W95/DOS CD KA

1
$ 2.00
$ 2.00
Shipping & Handling Per Order

1
$ 3.50
$ 3.50
Shipping & Handling Per Shipment


1
$ 6.50
$ 6.50
Shipping & Handling Per Item


$ 24.95
Total

It would cost you 17.61 all in inc postage handling etc to England

It's in stock as of today -Wed 11/7

Don't say i'm not good to you

Tracer




------------------
"Flying is the second hardest thing known to man.........the first is landing!"

#561678 - 07/11/01 01:22 PM Re: I just don't understand it!.....  

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Thanks - I bought it from here last night

Cheers,
Manteau

#561679 - 07/11/01 01:49 PM Re: I just don't understand it!.....  

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Size vs. Density...

I think this is still a critical factor in game design with /any kind/ of realistic terrain modelling. How many CD's did you want this map to be placed on anywho?

JF-18 for instance looks like crap and only takes up about the top righthand most corner grid.

For myself, the difference between 'satellite real' mapped hex A and B is not so important as the 'visual feel' when I get there.

I think this latter might also be important because flying a penetrating mission clear through the former WARPAC countries, even at Mach 1 will take _forever_.

But if you just 'dropped right in' to the Swiss Alps or a reasonable facsimile of the Baltic, you would never have to generate a 'real' map of all of NW Europe. Only an active sector of it.

This is how I handled my USAFE game. You picked an area of NORTHAG/CENTAG corresponding to a given number of AB's (A-10 FOL's and deployed F-15 bases) and that was your mission allocation area for that combat resolution 'turn'.

The F-111 and F-4E PTack which I had tentatively planned would have run on a similar system of 'hyperspace' to a given point, after which you faced an increasing likelihood of intercept X-distance from target based on the overall depth of the profile and the success of the CAir war.

I still say that, unless you plan on letting the damn EE'rs get carried away with themselves, Europe is a -dead- battleground.

1970's-80's machines are one thing but the Typhoon is a 2000's machine and should be applied to theatres where there is a reasonable chance of engagement.

Australia vs. a China/Indonesia 'pact' for instance or Saudi Typhoons fighting an Iraq-vs.-Iran Pt. Deux 'stabilization effort' (don't bomb MY oil tanker/wells etc.) and then (after Iran almost certainly wins), going on to fight a conglomerate state that basically controls the whole of the Northern Gulf and is the equal (or with Kuwait, the greater) of Saudi Arabia on the OPEC council.

You could even include 'branching' campaigns such as an Iranian supported revolution up through the Arab republics and even Chechnya.

Further West, how about a replay of _Warriors_ but with Typhoons instead of F-20's facing off against the IDFAF after a Major Blowup of the Palestinian Problem led to active warfare/occupation between Jordan and Israel and an 'Arab Coalition' intervention.

I would even go for 'Greece vs. Israel/Turkey' over the pissant islands off each others coasts (and Cyprus of course).

But jeeze people. Not all of us were born under grey twilit skies (I certainly don't get off on them) and not all of us have an obsession with kicking a bunch of poor as church mice, down-to-their-knees, atomics and nothing else, 'Superpower' Russians.

Hell, it may even go further back to some kind of WWII fixation for all I know but whatever, "Let's take it outside". The European bar room has had enough brawling fun for one century.


Kurt Plummer

#561680 - 07/11/01 03:48 PM Re: I just don't understand it!.....  

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To Gavin and all .

that map is awesome , and got my mind a racing -

is that map , approx the same size geog area as the countries in TAW ?

PERSONALLY , i am sick of non modding , and sick of all the potential sims / modding that could happen , that never comes about -

i have a radical idea , lets take the TAW engine , and make this theatre ourselves !

we need someone somewhere with talent to cough - hack the taw engine - it must be possible ??

then we could do a robin hood / falcon 4 , and build our own theatre !

there are talented people out there , with skills , ideas and drive , we could do this if the will was there ! ??

Taw gfx , are still tops , the map above would look awsome , its big , but TAW could do it , specially with current cpu's and 3d gfx cards .

Might have to trim a few areas around the edges , but im sure we could get scandinavia , northern europe , and uk / iceland etc in !

what do you guys think ????

frankly there is a whole raft of sims , where people ask / plead with the developer for help / tools and modding and nothing is forthcoming - even flashpoint is starting to look like going the same way

so maybe we should just seize the opportunity and organise ourselves and have a go , what have we got to loose ??

maybe we could offer a finacial reward for some TAW tools , eg tiling stuff , mission builder etc ?

if nothing else it would liven up the TAW forum ?

Re Tyhoon , i still live in hope of campaign open up and mission builder , so im reserving judgement on that for time being , but frankly , modding sims is the way to go , lets stop bitching and improve things for all !

if we get no help / support , then fook it , lets try it ourselves anyway !


#561681 - 07/11/01 04:06 PM Re: I just don't understand it!.....  

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I think a surprising amount could be done if we could work out the .dat format.

I've spent ages trying to work out the format, and I haven't managed it.

The files aren't encrypted or compressed, the binary files are just mapped sequentially to the file - I can't see any file sizes though, so there must be an index somewhere.

Cheers,
Manteau

#561682 - 07/11/01 04:24 PM Re: I just don't understand it!.....  

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Kurt,

For once, this is one area where I don't care about realism.

I'd far rather something in my own back yard and something that has more relevance to me.

Even if the scenario isn't that realistic - think about it:

* Russia invades the Baltic states (Belarus, Lithuania)

* Nato move fighters into German airbases

* NATO bring troops over to Germany

* You could fly as British, German and Italian Typhoons on CAPS

* Possibly NATO may fight back rather than just defend

* RAF patrols over the north sea off Scotland - e.g. against bear bombers, Tu-22Ms, etc

* Escorting Nimrods over the north sea

* Russia invades Finland (even if they are neutral - possibly Sweden as well)

* We're back to Norway again - huge NATO presence there

* US Carrier fleet in North Sea

* The Brits bring their two new carriers with Typhoons/JSF into play (they would have already - possibly bring them into Baltic sea - don't know if this is possible sealane wise in Denmark)

* Russian fighters/bombers cross to Poland

* Land army invade Poland

* NATO steps in forcefully

etc, etc,

Come on, that's half of what the scenario of Typhoon is anyway, but in Typhoon YOUR action was centred on Iceland - just expand the theatre so you're involved in the whole war.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - I would be prepared to pay over 60 for a game that let me did this, with different campaigns, a whole theatre like this with multitudes of realistic missions to fly, and a TAW style campaign interface that let you control and tweak things.

Cheers,
Manteau

[This message has been edited by Manteau (edited 07-11-2001).]

#561683 - 07/11/01 04:53 PM Re: I just don't understand it!.....  

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Quote:
Originally posted by 3dfxboy:
maybe we could offer a finacial reward for some TAW tools , eg tiling stuff , mission builder etc ?


I'd do it for free if I could. I'd PAY to have some more detailed info on the format of the files (not as much as I would for an actual game though ) if it helped in the long run.

LOL - maybe we could bribe Steve Hunt for the tools (and source code - only joking ).

How's 300 sound, Steve?

On the other hand, looks like BoB's source code is going to be made available...

Cheers,
Manteau

#561684 - 07/11/01 05:13 PM Re: I just don't understand it!.....  

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I've mentioned this before, but there is a great little book every god fearing EF2000 fan should read, its called
Total War 2006.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0340748567/o/qid=994867894/sr=8-1/026-6489041-6546835

It's interesting; i do not agree with the poltics of it, but it is still a good read. Especially cool is the sequence where the RAF Typhoons are fighting for air superiority over the Baltic and the NATO race for Estonia.

Anyway, the writer wrote the book as a thesis for the Luftwaffe staff college, and he knows what he's talking about.

Gavin

#561685 - 07/11/01 05:20 PM Re: I just don't understand it!.....  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Gavin Bennett:
I've mentioned this before, but there is a great little book every god fearing EF2000 fan should read, its called
Total War 2006.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0340748567/o/qid=994867894/sr=8-1/026-6 489041-6546835

It's interesting; i do not agree with the poltics of it, but it is still a good read. Especially cool is the sequence where the RAF Typhoons are fighting for air superiority over the Baltic and the NATO race for Estonia.

Anyway, the writer wrote the book as a thesis for the Luftwaffe staff college, and he knows what he's talking about.

Gavin


LOL - I've just bought it - 6 - half the price of EF2000 2.0

Something different to do at least.

Cheers,
Manteau

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