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#561606 - 07/09/01 08:02 AM You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Got mine recently. O..Why o why would Rage/Did not model that beautiful cockpit accurately in stead of "gamy" ? D**N !

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#561607 - 07/11/01 12:16 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Guess not !???

#561608 - 07/11/01 09:57 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Maybe I am just a moron ( I am often told so) but, I have no idea what poster you are talking about.

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http://www.cmacg-wings-of-fury.com

#561609 - 07/11/01 10:36 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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As far as I can tell you are no moron, but then again, aren't we all basically

The poster does not come with the game (understandably for the cockpit is so poorly done in the game), and I got it at the EF Typhoon promo stand at a recent air show.

The poster shows the cockpit in great detail and each of the MFD's also enlarged around it. Seize about 0,8 m x 0,5 m.

Be sure to get one on your next airshow.

Cheers !

#561610 - 07/12/01 09:05 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by sixpack:
The poster shows the cockpit in great detail and each of the MFD's also enlarged around it. Seize about 0,8 m x 0,5 m.

Be sure to get one on your next airshow.

Cheers !


The Leeuwarden airshow was great! Went on the friday (beter weather & not to crowdy). Think they all want to provide the next fighter for the KLu so we got demos of the Grippen, Raphale and Typhoon and mockups from both JSF contestants (the Boeing JSF was even painted in Dutch airforce colors).

I think we will continue to buy American (airforce sentiment, long standing relations) but I wouldn't mind a choice for Rapahle or Typhoon. Two engine's might give a beter survivability in Yugoslavia / Iraq type peace enforcement operations and less losses during normal operations / training with little threat of a WW-III style conflict these benefits may become more important.

#561611 - 07/12/01 11:22 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Why o why would Rage/Did not model that beautiful cockpit accurately in stead of "gamy" ? D**N !

They did!!! But the Eurofighter and RAF test pilots told them that this was not representative of the cockpit experience, and that a screen full of MFDs with clickable buttons was very UNrealistic.

So DID changed the cockpit to the stylised one that is used now. The RAF is considering using EFT as a tactical combat trainer for RAF squadrons. It DOES reproduce situational awareness and threat assessment in a very realistic manner. That's according to Keith Hartley - Eurofighter test pilot, the guy who flew the Farnborough 2000 air display. I believe him

Cheers,
Kenji
PC Pilot and Gamespot UK

[This message has been edited by ktakeda (edited 07-12-2001).]

#561612 - 07/12/01 11:42 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by ktakeda:
Why o why would Rage/Did not model that beautiful cockpit accurately in stead of "gamy" ? D**N !

The RAF is considering using EFT as a tactical combat trainer for RAF squadrons. It DOES reproduce situational awareness and threat assessment in a very realistic manner. That's according to Keith Hartley - Eurofighter test pilot, the guy who flew the Farnborough 2000 air display. I believe him


Well they'd better hurry up and fix the weapons inaccuracies then.

I also don't understand how you can say they did model the cockpit realistically - 1 radar mode? - no TIALD for targetting LGBs?

I can't imagine the RAF providing the pilots with keyboards to select their targets.

Cheers,
Manteau

[This message has been edited by Manteau (edited 07-12-2001).]

#561613 - 07/12/01 11:51 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ktakeda:
[b]

They [b]did
The RAF is considering using EFT as a tactical combat trainer for RAF squadrons. It DOES reproduce situational awareness and threat assessment in a very realistic manner. That's according to Keith Hartley - Eurofighter test pilot, the guy who flew the Farnborough 2000 air display. I believe him

Cheers,
Kenji
PC Pilot and Gamespot UK [QUOTE]
--------------]

Well Kenji, I'd sure like to hear that from the pilots themselves in this board, but thanks for sharing that

#561614 - 07/12/01 11:53 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by boshar:
The Leeuwarden airshow was great! Went on the friday (beter weather & not to crowdy) .


Hi !

Was there on saturday. Great show indeed ! Next year in Gilze Rijen. See you there

sixpack

#561615 - 07/12/01 01:32 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  
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Personally I don't have a problem with the cockpit, what I'd LOVE too see those textures used be a bit more high-res. If the cockpit isn't goingto be clickable it could at least look a lot more crisper. Actually that might be a good idea for the add-on; some higher resolution textures.

#561616 - 07/12/01 02:16 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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I think its a *little* disingenous to say: "a cockpit full of clickable buttons is unrealistic"

I am not looking for Falcon 4; I am looking for Typhoon. And the Typhoon has multiple radar modes. And it has ECM that you can probably turn on. And ground steering. And possibly even a lot speed rudder :-)

I saw a clip on the news some years back from a Typhoon promotional video. The Typhoon had, like in that grand old sim JSF, a sort of projected grid overlay of terrain features for strike pilots flying NOE.

It has a TIALD. It has the PIRATE IRST system.

I want these things! :-)

Think EF2000, with more accurate bits and bobs, and MFDs that are actually IN the cockpit. Nothing fancy, just the occassional need to go heads down and line up an IRST seeker.

And no motherlands....

Gavin

#561617 - 07/12/01 03:58 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  
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I was so disgusted with the way DID handled themselves that I decided to build a Typhoon as one of my projects with SimTech.
Ofcourse being that its for CFS2, I cant emulate the radar modes,but we all do what we can in our own way huh?

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#561618 - 07/12/01 04:07 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Blond_Knight:
I was so disgusted with the way DID handled themselves that I decided to build a Typhoon as one of my projects with SimTech.
Ofcourse being that its for CFS2, I cant emulate the radar modes,but we all do what we can in our own way huh?


LOL

I was seriously thinking about starting my own flight sim EF2000 style - a Chinese person in the Flankers forum has had a good stab at a game flying the J10 (I think - can't remember).

If anyone else is interested...

Cheers,
Manteau

[This message has been edited by Manteau (edited 07-12-2001).]

#561619 - 07/12/01 05:46 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Tornado, Manteau?

Someone in Finland is making a pretty nifty Hornet sim.

http://www.saunalahti.fi/jourait/

Maybe a bit of code sharing? Maybe someone who knows AI programming could help all out.

I can research and design...:-) But not code :-(

Gavin

#561620 - 07/13/01 12:01 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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I am looking for Typhoon. And the Typhoon has multiple radar modes. And it has ECM that you can probably turn on. And ground steering. And possibly even a lot speed rudder :-)

Eurofighter Typhoon has serious Data Fusion technology on-board. Inputs from ALL of the sensors are fed into the onboard threat database and displayed on all relevant displays. There is a LOT of automation. Same as the F-22. ECM should have a manual mode though, but remember that this is a single-seat fighter so automated ECM is certainly a desirable feature in some circumstances.

It has a TIALD. It has the PIRATE IRST system.

I remember seeing that DID wrote an instrument trainer for RAF pilots when the TIALD upgrade for Jaguars was put in during the Gulf War. Maybe they could release that as a separate product, subject to MoD restrictions The IR system in EFT is pretty good, the RAF test pilot (Brian Kemp)said it's great for counting the missiles left on each enemy aircraft in the vicinity to do threat assessment.

The point made by the test pilots is that thy can do a cockpit instrument scan much, much quicker than an untrained individual. Therefore putting MFD overlays in models their actual scan pattern better than a separate clickable MFD screen. Also, they use the HOTAS controls instinctively, therefore not using the MFD buttons much during combat. What we really need are multi-screen sims, but I guess that's a little ways off for combat sim at least

I know what you're saying regarding all of the real plane's features. The plane is very advanced in terms of reducing pilot workload though, although there are certainly features missing in the game.

I think what we have to remember is that the developers work really hard. There really aren't that many of them, and they have to prioritise features so the game ships on time. EFT has over 1 million lines of code already!

In an ideal world we would have a sim that had everything but hardcore features that could be switched off for novices. That takes a lot more programming though Think Combat Flight Simulator 2, but as I said elsewhere MS has a lot more people to make this possible!

Don't get me wrong, I think there is certainly a place for hardcore sims on my hard drive. Unfortunately, the fat cats don't always think that way. Just look at what's happening to Janes Combat Simulations - RIP.

Cheers folks,
Kenji
PC Pilot and Gamepspot UK

[This message has been edited by ktakeda (edited 07-12-2001).]

#561621 - 07/13/01 12:44 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Well, I think at this point, DID is probably the only one capable of such a sim.

They already have the nicely balanced gameplay thing done - or they have ways of doing it (TAW-hahah), and they have the beginner's workload done right.

Making a drag mode... well that would probably involving turning on drag, and then having a switch to set the drag calculations to zero in a beginner;s mode. Drag modelling would pretty much bring the Flight Model into the realm of the hardcore as it is.

That's the FM covered. A bigger deal would be the cockpit. Again, I think EF2000 is the way to go here. I used the cockpit, but mostly used the F1 and F3 keys in combat. F1 allowed me a better sense of what was going on, and F3 gave me padlock. A reasonably detailed cockpit with clickable head's down stuff, like different radar modes, the PIRATE, TIALD and so on would represent a good compromise between "Typhoon" and "Falcon" :-)

I love the Eurofighter. I think that not only is it a worthy successor to the Jaguar and Tornado F3, it is also probably the thing which will return the RAF to "bunch you don't want to mess with, ever," status. No longer will the RAF need USAF F-15s or F-16s as top cover.

(Kurt... I know, i know, i know. But still.)

Which makes me think that the Typhoon should a cool sim attached to it. And DID do the best Typhoon and F-22 sims. So they are the obvious candidates to do it. :-)

Its also the case, that a properly hardcore Typhoon would not be a huge challenge to fly and flight in. The F-22 in TAW was not, and the hardcore types still moaned. But i always suspected the FM and the workload were pretty much as authentic as you would get with a PC sim.

-

The campaign. Even without a Typhoon 2002, the campaign could benefit from a different set of friendly and enemy equipment. This could be in the "carrier ops" addon. I suggested this first as different time periods (eg 2005, 2009, and 2015), but perhaps this could be changed to.

Lite: The stuff we have.
"Authentic" Replace the Viggens with CF-18s. (a must!) The Grippens could probably go too (F-16 MLUs from...somewhere?). Sweden fighting Russia in the context of a Norwegian campaign is one thing, fighting Russia for Iceland ... well even my Swedish friends find this amusing.

But i digress. The Authentic mode could offer 2005-2009 era Western and Russian equipment and perhaps change the scripting to have the Russian invasion supported by hovercraft and landing ships, and not Erkanoplans. And no motherlands. The Kuznetsov carrier could make a final, and scarifying, final mission arc objective. And no SAM packing subs. :-)

Give us drag and an authentic mode in the carrier ops. Then we'll really start harassing Rage about a bigger sequel!

:-)

Gavin

#561622 - 07/13/01 08:07 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Gavin Bennett:
Its also the case, that a properly hardcore Typhoon would not be a huge challenge to fly and flight
Gavin


Yes, well we simmers will never be able to know for sure, but for comparison: I find keeping the car on track in a PC racing (GP series/Nascar) SIM a whole lot harder to do than in real life (well i.r.t. racing I just know how to kick the tires on the Autobahn in Germany at 150 Mph/230kmph and on the countryside curvy roads). That's why I don't like playing PC racing games particularly. Although Nascar 3 is still on my HD.

I guess because I am unaware of the true feeling of jetflying I am satisfied with jetsims

I am sorry, off topic just a little..

SIM MEANS SIMULATION, so the aim is to convince you are doing the real thing and forget you are actually operating a PC (duh). An authentically rendered and clickable cockpit should therefore always be in a jetsim IMO one way or the other. Jane;s and DI for example understood that factor. Another thing: Modern computers can handle it, so why not !?

#561623 - 07/13/01 10:40 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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SIM MEANS SIMULATION, so the aim is to convince you are doing the real thing and forget you are actually operating a PC (duh). An authentically rendered and clickable cockpit should therefore always be in a jetsim IMO one way or the other. Jane;s and DI for example understood that factor. Another thing: Modern computers can handle it, so why not !?


You miss the point. The people who have experience in real jet fighters say that clickable cockpits are not realistic. That's Keith Hartley, a senior test pilot on the Eurofighter programme, and Brian Kemp, chief RAF test pilot with combat hours over Bosnia/Kosovo and a graduate of Top Gun. They are the ones who told DID, in no uncertain terms, to do away with clickable MFD look-down cockpits in their game.

For us mere mortals to be able to scan a cockpit with the speed and fluidity of a highly trained professional fighter pilot is nigh impossible. These folks are selected because they have a particular set of physical and mental qualities. Thes are then honed through years of training, from PPL through to fast jets. Then honed some more at schools like Top Gun.

Is it the aim of a fighter simulation to convey what you or I experience in a fighter cockpit - ie: fumbling around trying to remember what does what, or is it to convey what a trained fighter pilot experiences, ie: dogfighting while instinctively controlling the aeroplane because you have 1000s of flying hours under your belt?

I for one have a full-time job. I do not have time to spend 1000s hours just learning what button to press. I want the fighter pilot experience without the tedious and very difficult training that I probably wouldn't pass anyway. THAT is what I get out of PC flight sims.

For the full cockpit experience you are far better off with Fly!, which has fully clickable cockpits, or X-Plane which is a fantastic sim and you can build your own cockpit as you want them to look and behave. No guns and missiles though

Just my own honest opinion. Take it or leave it

Cheers, great swapping threads with all you wonderful folks
Kenji

#561624 - 07/13/01 11:33 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Can someone post a pix of the real EFT cockpit. Thanks

#561625 - 07/13/01 11:40 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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You miss my point, Kenji.
You can keep repeating whatever you want , but why not have both ? A realistic clickable cockpit for the purists and a wing commander style enlarged MFD's for (let's say) "instinctive playability".

You talked about the instinctual way real pilots handle the throttle and stick buttons. Is or will Typhoon (be) playable with HOTAS BTW, guess not ! Rest my case

And don't believe everything those pilots tell ya

#561626 - 07/13/01 12:32 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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You miss my point, Kenji. You can keep repeating whatever you want , but why not have both ? A realistic clickable cockpit for the purists and a wing commander style enlarged MFD's for (let's say) "instinctive playability".

Yeah, I hear you SixPack, and I agree In an ideal world we should have both. The real problem is deadlines. The developers are up against it as it is, so I think that is why we don't seem to be getting what we want. You'll find that only the bigger development teams can afford to use this approach. As I said before, it all comes down to money

You talked about the instinctual way real pilots handle the throttle and stick buttons. Is or will Typhoon (be) playable with HOTAS BTW, guess not ! Rest my case

I use a Microsoft Force Feedback stick that has 16 button combinations plus hat. HOTAS is alive and well in my cockpit I know there are USB problems with a lot of people's setups but I'm still in the dark ages with my gameport!

And don't believe everything those pilots tell ya

Yeah, I don't believe anything anyone tells me until I check it out for myself But Brian Kemp (RAF EFT pilot) kicked my butt when I had a multiplayer dogfight with him. But then I toasted Don Whiteford of DID, so I wasn't all THAT bad!!!

Cheers, I'll shut up now
Kenji

#561627 - 07/13/01 12:48 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by ktakeda:
[BYeah, I don't believe anything anyone tells me until I check it out for myself But Brian Kemp (RAF EFT pilot) kicked my butt when I had a multiplayer dogfight with him. But then I toasted Don Whiteford of DID, so I wasn't all THAT bad!!![/B]


LOL

How much did Brian Kemp beat you by?

Was this flying Typhoon?

Cheers,
Manteau

#561628 - 07/13/01 12:54 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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LOL
How much did Brian Kemp beat you by?


He just got on my tail everytime. I gave up after a while, it was no contest The RAF and Top Gun dogfighter training obviously works! The best bit is, it all works in the sim too!

Was this flying Typhoon?

Yep, it was at the official launch party in London, which is where I chatted at length with the pilot and DID folks about EFT and what it's all about. They are all passionate about their flight sims, so keep giving them constructive comments on here, as they are listening

LOL
Kenji

#561629 - 07/13/01 01:03 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by ktakeda:
He just got on my tail everytime. I gave up after a while, it was no contest The RAF and Top Gun dogfighter training obviously works! The best bit is, it all works in the sim too!


Nice!!

Quote:
Yep, it was at the official launch party in London, which is where I chatted at length with the pilot and DID folks about EFT and what it's all about. They are all passionate about their flight sims, so keep giving them constructive comments on here, as they are listening


I'm glad to hear it. I don't mean any offense to any of them (my jokes in the "awfully quite at Rage/DID" thread may have been a bit over the top, but I mean it all constructively.

If they'd fix the USB joystick throttle problem so I could fly Typhoon in Windows 2000, I'd probably load the game again.

BTW, I'm going to re-install my machine this weekend, so I might try typhoon with the base W2k installation without DX8 and see if it works with that.

Cheers,
Manteau

#561630 - 07/13/01 03:34 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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BTW, I'm going to re-install my machine this weekend, so I might try typhoon with the base W2k installation without DX8 and see if it works with that.

Good luck You might want to try DX7 first as you're starting from scratch. I know that DX8 has been causing problems with other software too.

Have a good one!
Cheers,
Kenji

#561631 - 07/13/01 06:05 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  
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ktakeda

let me ask you something....

In Nascar... how many people do you know that play 400 laps around an oval in real time? I know one person that is that sad but I think he is quite unique sitting there for 5 hours with w*nkers cramp *G*

If you were FORCED to play the real simulation of 400 laps the game would go tits up and no one would buy it.. (except my sad friend)

we are FORCED to play a cut-down, cut and shut effort of a flight sim and there is no options to turn automatic take off to manual... a set of decent radars... some nice comm and wingman control options..IF I want to skip take off I press shift-S If I dont want to mess witht he wingman controls I forget they are there...

IF the RAF are seriously planning to train using typhoon... have motherlands been spotted over the baltics? lol I strongly believe the RAF took one look at typhoon and thought.... hmmmmm NO ! maybe they did look into but I'll bet they didnt look more than past the realistic graphics !!.

take care

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#561632 - 07/13/01 07:01 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Kenji.

One sim that is frequently mentioned in discussions about realism in terms of avionics modelling is Hornet Korea.

Pilots playing Falcon 4 say that in real life, they take off, reach down, and clean up their plane. They do not click their head to the left, then click their head down, then click on the gear lever :-) They just do it. Its automatic. OK, in Falcon, you can hit the G key, and do this, but you know, since the lever is there...

(Also in Falcon the keyboard eject sequence doesn't seem to work, which means when your plane is ready to blow, i have to look down, down, click right, and then click on the handle... grr!)

In Hornet Korea, the gear lever is not there. You just hit G, and away you go. And after a while, you do not think about it. Its avionics are pretty realistic, but you can use your keyboard and HOTAS to control them, and it doesn't take long to figure out.

SAM painting you? Hit O.
Change radar modes? Q (I think).
You therefore, after a little bit, concentrate on getting shot down by those goddamn Su-27s.

Uhm, yeah, the point of all this? Hornet Korea would make a good model for the Typhoon cockpit experience, only with the higher tech Typhoon being simpler. You could then, as in Typhoon, concentrate on fighting the enemy, but the hardcore types amongst us could have that extra bit of "meat to chew on" That extra bit of workload would make the hardcore players interested.

So there is a good arguement in favour of a _somewhat_ more complex cockpit environment, modelling different radar modes and avionics functions.

Gavin

#561633 - 07/13/01 08:53 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by ktakeda:
Good luck You might want to try DX7 first as you're starting from scratch. I know that DX8 has been causing problems with other software too.


That's what I meant - W2k has base DX7 installed.

Cheers,
Manteau

#561634 - 07/13/01 11:36 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gavin Bennett:
Give us drag and an authentic mode in the carrier ops.

Gavin


Gavin, it seems to me as though drag is modelled in Typhoon. I notice that different stores result in different top speeds, which surely means that even the drag of different types of weapon hanging off the pylons have been modelled. So I'm not sure why you say there isn't any?

Tig


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#561635 - 07/13/01 11:39 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Try putting down the speedbreaks.
Watch as your aircraft goes straight up for quite a long ways.

So if there is drag modelling, all well and good. I have not noticed the subtler variants.

But surely it should work with things like parasitic drag and the speed break!

:-)

Gavin

#561636 - 07/14/01 02:11 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by sixpack:
You miss my point, Kenji.
You can keep repeating whatever you want , but why not have both ? A realistic clickable cockpit for the purists and a wing commander style enlarged MFD's for (let's say) "instinctive playability".

You talked about the instinctual way real pilots handle the throttle and stick buttons. Is or will Typhoon (be) playable with HOTAS BTW, guess not ! Rest my case

And don't believe everything those pilots tell ya


Funny thing how probably only PC simmers want things made as difficult and complex as can be. My guess is the REAL pilot isn't screaming for more buttons to press, 12 step taxing/take off sequences, or 15 different radar modes to deal with.

Personally I'd believe what the REAL pilot tells you.

#561637 - 07/14/01 02:15 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gavin Bennett:

But surely it should work with things like parasitic drag and the speed break!

:-)

Gavin



The speed brake works very nicely. In the landing pattern at low speed you see a big difference in drag when you use the airbrake. I would have had to do a few go arounds already if not for the airbrake, seems ok to me.

The flat plate area of the airbrake is relatively small though so you wouldn't expect to see deceleration if you try to make it work against those two powerful engines on full afterburner. But even so the airbrakes are very effective, even in full AB, particularly if you need to slow down quickly to corner speed if you merge against an S37 a tad too fast. That's saved my butt several times! The airbrake is good!

Tig


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#561638 - 07/14/01 02:45 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Uroboros:
Funny thing how probably only PC simmers want things made as difficult and complex as can be. My guess is the REAL pilot isn't screaming for more buttons to press, 12 step taxing/take off sequences, or 15 different radar modes to deal with.

Personally I'd believe what the REAL pilot tells you.


Yep, I'd like to complain to DiD because most of the people playing their games are just not modelled correctly!!

Take a look at some of these messages, they could only have been written by game players with very suspect reality models and I insist DiD produce a patch for it!!


Tig


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#561639 - 07/14/01 02:57 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Ah c'mon now, Tig.

:-)

Typhoon ain't Falcon. But we want a replication of experience.

The reason hard core simmers want something harder than Typhoon is because we are NOT guys sitting in the rather cool Typhoon bubble cockpit, flying for the RAF. We do not get to experience everything an RAF pilot would.

The little details, the extra workload, make the simulation a little more immersive for Joe Sixpack. That's why we love Falcon. Because it makes us think, and the more it makes us think, the less time we think about external distractions, and the more involved we can be in the sim. With Typhoon i tend to notice the flaws, and notice the room i am sitting in a little more, and thus the experience feels more like a game than a simulation.

EF2000 is a good compromise. TAW is a good compromise. Hornet Korea is a good compromise.

And no RAF pilot is ever going to tell me... (and I don't care if John Nicol were to knock at my door tommorrow) that Her Majesty's Royal Air Force has ever trained to intercept and shoot down and destroy Russian motherships.

:-)

Gavin

#561640 - 07/14/01 04:14 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gavin Bennett:
Ah c'mon now, Tig.

:-)

Typhoon ain't Falcon. But we want a replication of experience.
Gavin


Yep, and I'm glad it isn't because Falcon was one of the worst bug experiences ever unleashed on us.

The Falcon flight model was badly porked, you could pull 20g momentarily in a certain speed range It is clear that some gamers wouldn't know a bug in the drag model if it jumped up and took a bite out of their arse, but the drag errors in Falcon were glaring. Not to mention that most of the AI flight models were so far off it was laughable, and some of those things still aren't fixed yet.

The bugs were so bad I took it off my hard disk for over a year. Even today after dozens of fixes and teams of folk working on realism patches, it is still riddled with problems.

If you want to read for weeks before being able to figure out what everything in the cockpit does and if it is your ideal of fun to have to keep pausing the game to try and figure out the radar modes and obscure commands so that you end up sitting down to fly with an hour to spare, only to end up checking the manual for 40 minutes of it then I guess you are right.

Personally I just want to have fun! When I came here that's exactly how the game was being presented, not as hardcore, not as a study sim for the button pushers. Just a flight simulation that would be fun for beginners and for the hardcore players who wanted a break from the endless busy work in games like Falcon.

I was expecting a fun game and I wasn't disappointed! Unfortunately some folk didn't get what they wanted, and frankly I'm tired of hearing about it.

Tig


Tiger
#561641 - 07/14/01 05:01 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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:-)

As for the drag modelling. The Typhoon goes too fast. And it most assuredly goes too fast straight up. Neat little trick, but annoying for the simmer types amongst us. That's all I meant. (I judge the airbrake to be less than useful because i've had to do some fancy moves to bleed off speed before landing... and that's as far as that goes.)

And I think it should be a thing you can turn on or off, running from a default to complex mode. That's all.

And I know Falcon 4 has problems up the swanny. But I didn't buy Typhoon as Falcon 4. i bought it as Typhoon. And take my word for it, I have been following the development of this game since...late 1998 sometime.

F-16 Aggressor has a much better flight model than Falcon 4.

Falcon's many problems tend to be eclipsed by the many features. There is literally so much stuff going on, you don't notice the odd 20G turn (never managed this, but hell, i believe you!) and the MiG-23's super flight model. No, I tell a lie, I noticed alright :-)

Typhoon is impressive because it has so little wrong with it. The interface takes some getting used to, I'll grant you, and having to decide whether to dogfight in Northern Iceland or in Western Iceland, when a lot of things is going on is a nasty decision to make. And as a result, because there is so little wrong with it, we notice all the stuff that is wrong with it a lot more. (Motherlands! Superfast climb rates! Low-res cockpit!)

I don't want Typhoon to be Falcon. I have Falcon for that. I have F/A-18, fer crying out loud. But I want Typhoon to be sitting on my hard drive in a years' time. I want Typhoon to be popular, and I want Typhoon to make DID/Rage a lot of money, and I want it to be a competitor for our hard earned money against Falcon V and LOMAC and so on.

(And I want the throttle to work under DirectX 8, in Win2k goddamnit!!!)

:-)

Gavin

#561642 - 07/14/01 09:25 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
When I came here that's exactly how the game was being presented, not as hardcore, not as a study sim for the button pushers.

Button pushing comes with the real jetflying experience my friend. How do you think it's done in the military; you think they just grab the stick, blast away and fly around for fun with no trouble in the cockpit at all?? Even in the Typhoon it isn't that simple, that's for sure.

I was expecting a fun game and I wasn't disappointed!

Good for you ! I like Typhoon also, but I don't love it. For me personally and for a lot of other members here that's a pity, because it could have been really great. Rage/Did did not want to go the extra mile. Try to respect our opinion okay, or maybe you can start your own "I love EFT so much" topic to make you feel better ?

Cheers



#561643 - 07/14/01 09:28 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Gavin Bennett:
But we want a replication of experience.

The reason hard core simmers want something harder than Typhoon is because we are NOT guys sitting in the rather cool Typhoon bubble cockpit, flying for the RAF. We do not get to experience everything an RAF pilot would.
Gavin


YESSS !

#561644 - 07/23/01 11:57 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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IF the RAF are seriously planning to train using typhoon... have motherlands been spotted over the baltics? lol I strongly believe the RAF took one look at typhoon and thought.... hmmmmm NO ! maybe they did look into but I'll bet they didnt look more than past the realistic graphics !!.

The RAF and Eurofighter International worked closely with DID on everything - ESPECIALLY the flight model and cockpit representation. That is fact.

The only criticism I heard about the flight model is a lack of inertia. Apart from that the RAF/BAe test pilots thought the flight model was excellent. Keith Hartley said that the Eurofighter has an awesome amount of power, far greater than anything he's ever flown. Way more than an F-16 Falcon ;-) That's what he said, not me, I'm just the messenger.

Anyway, enough already.... Let's just hope WE get those motherlands before anyone else does ;-) I'm sure the folks in the 'Advanced Concepts' groups around the world have these on their drawing board. Heck, B2-style flying wing super-airliners are work-in-progress and will be arriving at an airport a lot sooner than you might think!

Take care y'all :-)
Kenji

ps: On the subject of button pushing. Around 70+% of a modern aircraft's costs are in avionics and software. That's to try and automate many pilot tasks and present only relevant information to the pilot. Also, on Clarkson's Speed programme the ohter week he revealed that a typical fighter pilot can process 50% more information/second than a 'typical' person. Now that is some serious avionics from Mother Nature

#561645 - 07/23/01 01:15 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  
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Well, if you take a look at the time it takes you to go from 200Kts to Mach 1 at low level, it takes 30 seconds with the 2 EJ200 at 90KN, but in Typhoon you can do this when in dry heat, and when in full burn it goes quicker.......why? because in my opinion they have modelled the EJ230, which produces 90KN of thrust at full dry power, and 120KN in reheat....that is PER ENGINE, so the Typhoon in Typhoon has 2 120 KN engines, which gives us 240KN in full reheat, it will shift around a bit, so parasitic drag and the such doesn't effect the aircraft so much as there is an ample amount of thrust to counter this. And the Typhoon isn't too fast, it can supercruise with the EJ200 at mach 1.3, so with the EJ230 I would expect a few extra kts onto my top speed. Has anyone got to Mach 2 with weapons on??? I haven't!

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If it aint bust, you haven't played with it enough!


"The engines are overheating, and so am I!!, we either make a move, or blow up!, So which is it to be?!"
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#561646 - 07/23/01 01:29 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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It's not just the interactive in cockpit button pushing I like to a certain extent
-easy handling is always nr. 1 ofcourse -on my list as with the real thing- but I also just like to LOOK at a nicely rendered cockpitpanel. Nothing wrong with that IMHO !?? Hell, take all those modders who dedicate days upon days fine tuning everything a real flight sim fan wants to see replicated.

I really don't get why some people -those who do the "positive" whining- get so upset from that, but that's really not my problem, (Tiger and all contrawhiners)

#561647 - 07/23/01 01:41 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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I appriciate the fact that Typhoon's systems are designed to ease workload on the pilot and that the HUD in the goggles will give the impression that Typhoon has (re popup MFDs), but the nagging thing that concerns me is having to cycle through lists of targets using Z and X.

I don't want 1000 buttons, either (hell, I don't even want 100), but ways to target LGBs using TIALD would be nice, rather than it being limited to vehicles.

Would be great if we could select targets them on the radar using the mouse cursor - in the real think pilots will be able to just look at the target and select it apparently!

Cheers,
Manteau

#561648 - 07/23/01 05:12 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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I was reading on that Eurofighter webpage about the Voice and HOTAS control system that the Typhoon uses other than the touch sensitive displays that the F-18E uses.

Well then. If RAGE were to put more functionality into the cockpit (hi-res graphic, MFDs embedded, and so on), a COOL thing would be to have proprietary support from MS Gamevoice. Yes, i know you could set up gamevoice with Typhoon, but have a disk come out with Gamevoice, for example, and a pre-made voice command file, featuring all the things controlled by the Typhoons voice command.

It would be neat, it would be clever, and it would again set Typhoon apart from the other sims out there. And it would actually be a realistic feature. Beat that.

Still, the cockpit interactivity in EF2000 represents one of the best balances between switchology and pointing your jet at a bad guy and shooting him down.

Gavin

#561649 - 07/23/01 05:38 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  
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Micro$$$$$$$$ Gamevoice?! Gamecommander will do me fine with Roger Wilko, half the damn price of Game$$voice, plus it needs only a P133 as a base line to run, unlike the microsofts eat all your CPU cycles up software
The VTAS system was prefered over touch screens due to the fact at 9G how the hell will you touch the screen? also the touch screen is far less reliable than the VTAS (Voice Throttle And Stick) and you can keep your hands on the controls to do things with, unless Boeing has invented a three arm pilot which can move 9 times his own body weight!?

------------------
If it aint bust, you haven't played with it enough!


"The engines are overheating, and so am I!!, we either make a move, or blow up!, So which is it to be?!"
----------------------------------
"It is better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
#561650 - 07/24/01 02:52 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Yeah, voice command is pretty cool. On the real EFT the computer does not even have to be trained to a particular pilot's dialect - alledgedly. Not sure how it works at 9g when the pilot is doing their anti-G breathing though

As far as HOTAS goes, I use an MS Force Feedback stick and the first thing I do with any new sim is program the joystick the way I want to. I almost never use the default joystick settings, but maybe that's just me being set in my ways! It only takes me about 5 mins anyway

I HATE mouse controls in flight sims. Even with a throttle control and a mouse-thumb button thingey (a technical term) I find it immensely cumbersome in the heat of battle. Even in Fly!, having to scroll around the aircraft panel with the mouse is painful. Although some people love it - maybe I'm just wierd

Cheers,
Kenji

#561651 - 07/24/01 03:25 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by ktakeda:
I HATE mouse controls in flight sims. Even with a throttle control and a mouse-thumb button thingey (a technical term) I find it immensely cumbersome in the heat of battle. Kenji


A good pilot always anticipates. So, by the time you end up in the heat of battle, your systems should be set, and all necessary buttons already pushed. From then on it's HOTAS only, with maybe one or two buttons to push for adjustment.

So, again: no problem with a clickable cockpit in combat flightsims like EFT. And also it's just fun cycling radarmodes and seeing stuff light up and happen on MFD's during those long, quite boring stretches of flight to the danger zone

I'll keep critisizing OVERsimplification

#561652 - 07/24/01 04:29 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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A good pilot always anticipates. So, by the time you end up in the heat of battle, your systems should be set, and all necessary buttons already pushed. From then on it's HOTAS only, with maybe one or two buttons to push for adjustment.

Yeah, you're right on the money there Sixpack! Preparation is everything to a good fighter pilot. That's why I'm stuck in wind tunnels all day and not in a fighter plane

So, again: no problem with a clickable cockpit in combat flightsims like EFT. And also it's just fun cycling radarmodes and seeing stuff light up and happen on MFD's during those long, quite boring stretches of flight to the danger zone

Certainly does provide a good level of realism when you cycle the MFDs and radars. I'm just a bit impatient and want to be in the danger zone all the time!

I'll keep critisizing OVERsimplification

Go for it I'm all for realism, it's just my definition is different to yours. It's all subjective and we all like different things. That's what makes a game designer's job so difficult. You can't please all of the people all of the time.

If people don't express their opinions then nobody will be any the wiser. So keep those posts flying!!!

Cheers,
Kenji

#561653 - 07/24/01 09:01 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Manteau:

Would be great if we could select targets them on the radar using the mouse cursor - in the real think pilots will be able to just look at the target and select it apparently!

Cheers,
Manteau



I agree that would be nice. And we don't need in cockpit MFDs to do that either. It could easily work with the system as it is set up now. Heck there is a mouse pointer that pops up.

But pushing buttons really doesn't interest me. If a function can be easily done with a keyboard press (selecting targets being oen that's easier down with the mouse) I'd rather have it that way. As cool as it might be to press buttons in the real world..doing with the mouse is not that efficent when running a sim on a 17-19 inch monitor with limited viewing area.

In the real world the pilot can probably press a lot of his buttons without giving them a second glance. In the PC sim world you'd have to pan over to that panel that might be a screen or two away and then move your mouse over to click on it. Imagine creating a driving game where you had to use your mouse to press the door lock button or the window open/close button. Ugghh...not fun.

#561654 - 07/24/01 09:30 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Uroboros:

I agree that would be nice. And we don't need in cockpit MFDs to do that either. It could easily work with the system as it is set up now. Heck there is a mouse pointer that pops up.

But pushing buttons really doesn't interest me. If a function can be easily done with a keyboard press (selecting targets being oen that's easier down with the mouse) I'd rather have it that way. As cool as it might be to press buttons in the real world..doing with the mouse is not that efficent when running a sim on a 17-19 inch monitor with limited viewing area.

In the real world the pilot can probably press a lot of his buttons without giving them a second glance. In the PC sim world you'd have to pan over to that panel that might be a screen or two away and then move your mouse over to click on it. Imagine creating a driving game where you had to use your mouse to press the door lock button or the window open/close button. Ugghh...not fun.


I give up. Yeh, let's take it easy and go back to the basics: just the stick and 10 keys on the keyboard. And fake overlay MFD's. What a flight experience !

So long everybody.

#561655 - 07/24/01 09:31 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Uroboros:

I agree that would be nice. And we don't need in cockpit MFDs to do that either. It could easily work with the system as it is set up now. Heck there is a mouse pointer that pops up.


Yeah, it should be easy - just hit test the MFD popups - they did it in EF2000 and TAW, and that was in the 3D cockpit, so it can't be THAT hard. (Admittedly, I wouldn't like to have a go at doing it, but )

Quote:
But pushing buttons really doesn't interest me. If a function can be easily done with a keyboard press (selecting targets being oen that's easier down with the mouse) I'd rather have it that way. As cool as it might be to press buttons in the real world..doing with the mouse is not that efficent when running a sim on a 17-19 inch monitor with limited viewing area.

In the real world the pilot can probably press a lot of his buttons without giving them a second glance. In the PC sim world you'd have to pan over to that panel that might be a screen or two away and then move your mouse over to click on it. Imagine creating a driving game where you had to use your mouse to press the door lock button or the window open/close button. Ugghh...not fun.


Yeah, good points.

I'd prefer it if you could do it with the keyboard and mouse, but as the popup MFDs only show the display, it would be easier to stick to the keyboard. There are quite a few key combinations to use up yet.

Just give a few more radar modes, possibly a DASS range like EF2000 had and TIALD targetting so we can target buildings (and fix the USB problems (and possibly weapons if you have time)) and I would be a very happy bunny

Cheers,
Manteau

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