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#561626 - 07/13/01 12:32 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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You miss my point, Kenji. You can keep repeating whatever you want , but why not have both ? A realistic clickable cockpit for the purists and a wing commander style enlarged MFD's for (let's say) "instinctive playability".

Yeah, I hear you SixPack, and I agree In an ideal world we should have both. The real problem is deadlines. The developers are up against it as it is, so I think that is why we don't seem to be getting what we want. You'll find that only the bigger development teams can afford to use this approach. As I said before, it all comes down to money

You talked about the instinctual way real pilots handle the throttle and stick buttons. Is or will Typhoon (be) playable with HOTAS BTW, guess not ! Rest my case

I use a Microsoft Force Feedback stick that has 16 button combinations plus hat. HOTAS is alive and well in my cockpit I know there are USB problems with a lot of people's setups but I'm still in the dark ages with my gameport!

And don't believe everything those pilots tell ya

Yeah, I don't believe anything anyone tells me until I check it out for myself But Brian Kemp (RAF EFT pilot) kicked my butt when I had a multiplayer dogfight with him. But then I toasted Don Whiteford of DID, so I wasn't all THAT bad!!!

Cheers, I'll shut up now
Kenji

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#561627 - 07/13/01 12:48 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by ktakeda:
[BYeah, I don't believe anything anyone tells me until I check it out for myself But Brian Kemp (RAF EFT pilot) kicked my butt when I had a multiplayer dogfight with him. But then I toasted Don Whiteford of DID, so I wasn't all THAT bad!!![/B]


LOL

How much did Brian Kemp beat you by?

Was this flying Typhoon?

Cheers,
Manteau

#561628 - 07/13/01 12:54 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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LOL
How much did Brian Kemp beat you by?


He just got on my tail everytime. I gave up after a while, it was no contest The RAF and Top Gun dogfighter training obviously works! The best bit is, it all works in the sim too!

Was this flying Typhoon?

Yep, it was at the official launch party in London, which is where I chatted at length with the pilot and DID folks about EFT and what it's all about. They are all passionate about their flight sims, so keep giving them constructive comments on here, as they are listening

LOL
Kenji

#561629 - 07/13/01 01:03 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by ktakeda:
He just got on my tail everytime. I gave up after a while, it was no contest The RAF and Top Gun dogfighter training obviously works! The best bit is, it all works in the sim too!


Nice!!

Quote:
Yep, it was at the official launch party in London, which is where I chatted at length with the pilot and DID folks about EFT and what it's all about. They are all passionate about their flight sims, so keep giving them constructive comments on here, as they are listening


I'm glad to hear it. I don't mean any offense to any of them (my jokes in the "awfully quite at Rage/DID" thread may have been a bit over the top, but I mean it all constructively.

If they'd fix the USB joystick throttle problem so I could fly Typhoon in Windows 2000, I'd probably load the game again.

BTW, I'm going to re-install my machine this weekend, so I might try typhoon with the base W2k installation without DX8 and see if it works with that.

Cheers,
Manteau

#561630 - 07/13/01 03:34 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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BTW, I'm going to re-install my machine this weekend, so I might try typhoon with the base W2k installation without DX8 and see if it works with that.

Good luck You might want to try DX7 first as you're starting from scratch. I know that DX8 has been causing problems with other software too.

Have a good one!
Cheers,
Kenji

#561631 - 07/13/01 06:05 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  
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ktakeda

let me ask you something....

In Nascar... how many people do you know that play 400 laps around an oval in real time? I know one person that is that sad but I think he is quite unique sitting there for 5 hours with w*nkers cramp *G*

If you were FORCED to play the real simulation of 400 laps the game would go tits up and no one would buy it.. (except my sad friend)

we are FORCED to play a cut-down, cut and shut effort of a flight sim and there is no options to turn automatic take off to manual... a set of decent radars... some nice comm and wingman control options..IF I want to skip take off I press shift-S If I dont want to mess witht he wingman controls I forget they are there...

IF the RAF are seriously planning to train using typhoon... have motherlands been spotted over the baltics? lol I strongly believe the RAF took one look at typhoon and thought.... hmmmmm NO ! maybe they did look into but I'll bet they didnt look more than past the realistic graphics !!.

take care

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because I'm not all there"

#561632 - 07/13/01 07:01 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Kenji.

One sim that is frequently mentioned in discussions about realism in terms of avionics modelling is Hornet Korea.

Pilots playing Falcon 4 say that in real life, they take off, reach down, and clean up their plane. They do not click their head to the left, then click their head down, then click on the gear lever :-) They just do it. Its automatic. OK, in Falcon, you can hit the G key, and do this, but you know, since the lever is there...

(Also in Falcon the keyboard eject sequence doesn't seem to work, which means when your plane is ready to blow, i have to look down, down, click right, and then click on the handle... grr!)

In Hornet Korea, the gear lever is not there. You just hit G, and away you go. And after a while, you do not think about it. Its avionics are pretty realistic, but you can use your keyboard and HOTAS to control them, and it doesn't take long to figure out.

SAM painting you? Hit O.
Change radar modes? Q (I think).
You therefore, after a little bit, concentrate on getting shot down by those goddamn Su-27s.

Uhm, yeah, the point of all this? Hornet Korea would make a good model for the Typhoon cockpit experience, only with the higher tech Typhoon being simpler. You could then, as in Typhoon, concentrate on fighting the enemy, but the hardcore types amongst us could have that extra bit of "meat to chew on" That extra bit of workload would make the hardcore players interested.

So there is a good arguement in favour of a _somewhat_ more complex cockpit environment, modelling different radar modes and avionics functions.

Gavin

#561633 - 07/13/01 08:53 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by ktakeda:
Good luck You might want to try DX7 first as you're starting from scratch. I know that DX8 has been causing problems with other software too.


That's what I meant - W2k has base DX7 installed.

Cheers,
Manteau

#561634 - 07/13/01 11:36 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gavin Bennett:
Give us drag and an authentic mode in the carrier ops.

Gavin


Gavin, it seems to me as though drag is modelled in Typhoon. I notice that different stores result in different top speeds, which surely means that even the drag of different types of weapon hanging off the pylons have been modelled. So I'm not sure why you say there isn't any?

Tig


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#561635 - 07/13/01 11:39 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Try putting down the speedbreaks.
Watch as your aircraft goes straight up for quite a long ways.

So if there is drag modelling, all well and good. I have not noticed the subtler variants.

But surely it should work with things like parasitic drag and the speed break!

:-)

Gavin

#561636 - 07/14/01 02:11 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by sixpack:
You miss my point, Kenji.
You can keep repeating whatever you want , but why not have both ? A realistic clickable cockpit for the purists and a wing commander style enlarged MFD's for (let's say) "instinctive playability".

You talked about the instinctual way real pilots handle the throttle and stick buttons. Is or will Typhoon (be) playable with HOTAS BTW, guess not ! Rest my case

And don't believe everything those pilots tell ya


Funny thing how probably only PC simmers want things made as difficult and complex as can be. My guess is the REAL pilot isn't screaming for more buttons to press, 12 step taxing/take off sequences, or 15 different radar modes to deal with.

Personally I'd believe what the REAL pilot tells you.

#561637 - 07/14/01 02:15 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gavin Bennett:

But surely it should work with things like parasitic drag and the speed break!

:-)

Gavin



The speed brake works very nicely. In the landing pattern at low speed you see a big difference in drag when you use the airbrake. I would have had to do a few go arounds already if not for the airbrake, seems ok to me.

The flat plate area of the airbrake is relatively small though so you wouldn't expect to see deceleration if you try to make it work against those two powerful engines on full afterburner. But even so the airbrakes are very effective, even in full AB, particularly if you need to slow down quickly to corner speed if you merge against an S37 a tad too fast. That's saved my butt several times! The airbrake is good!

Tig


Tiger
#561638 - 07/14/01 02:45 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Uroboros:
Funny thing how probably only PC simmers want things made as difficult and complex as can be. My guess is the REAL pilot isn't screaming for more buttons to press, 12 step taxing/take off sequences, or 15 different radar modes to deal with.

Personally I'd believe what the REAL pilot tells you.


Yep, I'd like to complain to DiD because most of the people playing their games are just not modelled correctly!!

Take a look at some of these messages, they could only have been written by game players with very suspect reality models and I insist DiD produce a patch for it!!


Tig


Tiger
#561639 - 07/14/01 02:57 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Ah c'mon now, Tig.

:-)

Typhoon ain't Falcon. But we want a replication of experience.

The reason hard core simmers want something harder than Typhoon is because we are NOT guys sitting in the rather cool Typhoon bubble cockpit, flying for the RAF. We do not get to experience everything an RAF pilot would.

The little details, the extra workload, make the simulation a little more immersive for Joe Sixpack. That's why we love Falcon. Because it makes us think, and the more it makes us think, the less time we think about external distractions, and the more involved we can be in the sim. With Typhoon i tend to notice the flaws, and notice the room i am sitting in a little more, and thus the experience feels more like a game than a simulation.

EF2000 is a good compromise. TAW is a good compromise. Hornet Korea is a good compromise.

And no RAF pilot is ever going to tell me... (and I don't care if John Nicol were to knock at my door tommorrow) that Her Majesty's Royal Air Force has ever trained to intercept and shoot down and destroy Russian motherships.

:-)

Gavin

#561640 - 07/14/01 04:14 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gavin Bennett:
Ah c'mon now, Tig.

:-)

Typhoon ain't Falcon. But we want a replication of experience.
Gavin


Yep, and I'm glad it isn't because Falcon was one of the worst bug experiences ever unleashed on us.

The Falcon flight model was badly porked, you could pull 20g momentarily in a certain speed range It is clear that some gamers wouldn't know a bug in the drag model if it jumped up and took a bite out of their arse, but the drag errors in Falcon were glaring. Not to mention that most of the AI flight models were so far off it was laughable, and some of those things still aren't fixed yet.

The bugs were so bad I took it off my hard disk for over a year. Even today after dozens of fixes and teams of folk working on realism patches, it is still riddled with problems.

If you want to read for weeks before being able to figure out what everything in the cockpit does and if it is your ideal of fun to have to keep pausing the game to try and figure out the radar modes and obscure commands so that you end up sitting down to fly with an hour to spare, only to end up checking the manual for 40 minutes of it then I guess you are right.

Personally I just want to have fun! When I came here that's exactly how the game was being presented, not as hardcore, not as a study sim for the button pushers. Just a flight simulation that would be fun for beginners and for the hardcore players who wanted a break from the endless busy work in games like Falcon.

I was expecting a fun game and I wasn't disappointed! Unfortunately some folk didn't get what they wanted, and frankly I'm tired of hearing about it.

Tig


Tiger
#561641 - 07/14/01 05:01 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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:-)

As for the drag modelling. The Typhoon goes too fast. And it most assuredly goes too fast straight up. Neat little trick, but annoying for the simmer types amongst us. That's all I meant. (I judge the airbrake to be less than useful because i've had to do some fancy moves to bleed off speed before landing... and that's as far as that goes.)

And I think it should be a thing you can turn on or off, running from a default to complex mode. That's all.

And I know Falcon 4 has problems up the swanny. But I didn't buy Typhoon as Falcon 4. i bought it as Typhoon. And take my word for it, I have been following the development of this game since...late 1998 sometime.

F-16 Aggressor has a much better flight model than Falcon 4.

Falcon's many problems tend to be eclipsed by the many features. There is literally so much stuff going on, you don't notice the odd 20G turn (never managed this, but hell, i believe you!) and the MiG-23's super flight model. No, I tell a lie, I noticed alright :-)

Typhoon is impressive because it has so little wrong with it. The interface takes some getting used to, I'll grant you, and having to decide whether to dogfight in Northern Iceland or in Western Iceland, when a lot of things is going on is a nasty decision to make. And as a result, because there is so little wrong with it, we notice all the stuff that is wrong with it a lot more. (Motherlands! Superfast climb rates! Low-res cockpit!)

I don't want Typhoon to be Falcon. I have Falcon for that. I have F/A-18, fer crying out loud. But I want Typhoon to be sitting on my hard drive in a years' time. I want Typhoon to be popular, and I want Typhoon to make DID/Rage a lot of money, and I want it to be a competitor for our hard earned money against Falcon V and LOMAC and so on.

(And I want the throttle to work under DirectX 8, in Win2k goddamnit!!!)

:-)

Gavin

#561642 - 07/14/01 09:25 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
When I came here that's exactly how the game was being presented, not as hardcore, not as a study sim for the button pushers.

Button pushing comes with the real jetflying experience my friend. How do you think it's done in the military; you think they just grab the stick, blast away and fly around for fun with no trouble in the cockpit at all?? Even in the Typhoon it isn't that simple, that's for sure.

I was expecting a fun game and I wasn't disappointed!

Good for you ! I like Typhoon also, but I don't love it. For me personally and for a lot of other members here that's a pity, because it could have been really great. Rage/Did did not want to go the extra mile. Try to respect our opinion okay, or maybe you can start your own "I love EFT so much" topic to make you feel better ?

Cheers



#561643 - 07/14/01 09:28 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Gavin Bennett:
But we want a replication of experience.

The reason hard core simmers want something harder than Typhoon is because we are NOT guys sitting in the rather cool Typhoon bubble cockpit, flying for the RAF. We do not get to experience everything an RAF pilot would.
Gavin


YESSS !

#561644 - 07/23/01 11:57 AM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  

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IF the RAF are seriously planning to train using typhoon... have motherlands been spotted over the baltics? lol I strongly believe the RAF took one look at typhoon and thought.... hmmmmm NO ! maybe they did look into but I'll bet they didnt look more than past the realistic graphics !!.

The RAF and Eurofighter International worked closely with DID on everything - ESPECIALLY the flight model and cockpit representation. That is fact.

The only criticism I heard about the flight model is a lack of inertia. Apart from that the RAF/BAe test pilots thought the flight model was excellent. Keith Hartley said that the Eurofighter has an awesome amount of power, far greater than anything he's ever flown. Way more than an F-16 Falcon ;-) That's what he said, not me, I'm just the messenger.

Anyway, enough already.... Let's just hope WE get those motherlands before anyone else does ;-) I'm sure the folks in the 'Advanced Concepts' groups around the world have these on their drawing board. Heck, B2-style flying wing super-airliners are work-in-progress and will be arriving at an airport a lot sooner than you might think!

Take care y'all :-)
Kenji

ps: On the subject of button pushing. Around 70+% of a modern aircraft's costs are in avionics and software. That's to try and automate many pilot tasks and present only relevant information to the pilot. Also, on Clarkson's Speed programme the ohter week he revealed that a typical fighter pilot can process 50% more information/second than a 'typical' person. Now that is some serious avionics from Mother Nature

#561645 - 07/23/01 01:15 PM Re: You like the official Typhoon cockpit poster ?  
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Well, if you take a look at the time it takes you to go from 200Kts to Mach 1 at low level, it takes 30 seconds with the 2 EJ200 at 90KN, but in Typhoon you can do this when in dry heat, and when in full burn it goes quicker.......why? because in my opinion they have modelled the EJ230, which produces 90KN of thrust at full dry power, and 120KN in reheat....that is PER ENGINE, so the Typhoon in Typhoon has 2 120 KN engines, which gives us 240KN in full reheat, it will shift around a bit, so parasitic drag and the such doesn't effect the aircraft so much as there is an ample amount of thrust to counter this. And the Typhoon isn't too fast, it can supercruise with the EJ200 at mach 1.3, so with the EJ230 I would expect a few extra kts onto my top speed. Has anyone got to Mach 2 with weapons on??? I haven't!

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