Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
#561263 - 06/19/01 03:07 PM Steve Hunt...it's going from bad to worse! *SPOILER*  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,364
Tracer[formerly of CS] Offline
Senior Member
Tracer[formerly of CS]  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,364
Hi Steve,
Well i approached the medusa's as you suggested -re: I have 1 pilot left.
The *major* problem now is that when i load-out my plane with A/A to deal with the 2/3 SU-37's the success rate -naturaly- various in shooting them down.
So say i take 2medium and 6ASRAAM, my wingman carries the exact same load ok.
Now if i manage to shoot down the 2/3 SU-37's then my wingman will engage the medusa's with his A/A load and be shot down while i take out the Medusa he's attacking!(instead of using his gun's first -which is what i want)

If on the other hand i *miss* 1 or both the SU-37's this often turn's into a stalemate with me turning inside the SU-37 while my wingman engage's one of them and either shoot's it down, or he dies himself through either engaging the SU or the Medusa!!

The Medusa's then head inland and BOOM it's all over.

If i tell my wingman to engage the SU's (i am at takeoff 18miles away from them *alway's* ) then by the time he get's off the ground and engage's them they are 8-9 mile's away and **Attacking** us! (i'm trying to get him to use *all* his A/A ordnance so that he will use his damn guns!!!)

It's a seriously fine line...that has not been breached not through want of trying (12 times last night -i may add!)

Also the Medusa engage you at 2miles from the rear of them *way* out of range from your A/A gun's....yes i have tried jinking lining up again etc the best i have *always* done is shoot down one (taking some damage) then engaging the other only for it's sidekick (remember there are two that fly in pair's?) to shoot me down in second's.....

There is no skill involved in this. Just absolute sheer luck!

A rundown so far:
1)your wingman and you manage to shoot down the 2/3 SU-37's within the average 18mile range before it turn's into a stalemate/or loss because of the SU's superior turning advantage(yes i use the airbrake for "thrust vectoring" the nose up ) and the Medusa's win anyway!
2)Take *to little* A/A ordnace (in the hope it works in shooting down the SU-37's AND then your wingman will use gun's against the FIRST Medusa(very *risky* ploy that hasn't worked)

If your wingman could use gun's at first then i might have a chance!
It all hinges on him using all his A/A ordnance first...but the problem is he accelerates after the medusa to use his ASRAAM's? Then get's shot down from approx 2miles waiting for his *unlocked* A/A weapon's to hit(which they don't!) before firing anymore that he may have left......sigh.

Only one fluky moment out of about 18 attempt's did my wingman engage finaly with gun's and shoot down one medusa before he ejected and blew up. I shot down one medusa before hitting the last one(it took no damage but forced me to eject) Then i hoped that the other 2 MII Typhoon's on medusa CAP -they would have been my pilot's plane's if i had any!- controlled by the CPU would finish the last medusa off?

NO CHANCE they went in with their A/A and were picked of within second's by this **1** lone medusa

This is a serious problem that is affecting gameplay for anyone that has 1 pilot left?

It's not like i can do anything to affect the situation? If i could load out my wingman and myself seperately *then* i could win! As i would tell him to engage the medusa's with only his gun's as ordnance!
I on the other hand, would be loaded to the hilt with A/A to take out the SU's then switch to gun's to engage the medusa's!

As it is it this is ended my campaign for me and my interest

I've pretty exhausted my continual play-die,repeat,play-die........................this isn't fun anymore Steve
The mechanic's of the game are defeating me.
Their should have been an alternative way to defeat these three medusa's with basicaly *just myself* My wingman is useless!!

All-in-all a complete bummer!
A "god" cheat is about the only way i will see the end with one pilot? but it's *not* the way it should be is it?

Tracer




------------------
"Flying is the second hardest thing known to man.........the first is landing!"

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#561264 - 06/19/01 04:29 PM Re: Steve Hunt...it's going from bad to worse! *SPOILER*  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


As more people reach this final stage of the game, I suspect we'll see a lot more of these posts.

My take on this is (based on EFT's current design)...

When you reach the 'final save' stage, this is in fact the actual end of the game. At this point you should quit the current campaign and start a fresh campaign... That's if you still have the motivation to do it all over again knowing what the outcome will be

Ahh well, only a few days now until Operation Flash Point is released, this should keep me busy until IL2/Silent Hunter/LOMAC are released.

------------------
\:\)

Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#561265 - 06/19/01 06:37 PM Re: Steve Hunt...it's going from bad to worse! *SPOILER*  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well... I managed to shoot down the medusas on my 5th attempt, but it takes patience ..lots of it. I use crvs at approx 2 miles. I now find that if I rerun the mission from the last save I win every time.

So take heart .. you'll get there eventually, then you'll wonder why you found it hard!

I must say however that I find this 'arbitrary' end to the campaign on day 4 VERY frustrating . Alas the scripting of events appears grossly overdone and intrusive.. almost to the extent that the underlying dynamic campaign engine might as well not be there.

Im looking forward to the add-on getting things back to the TAW type environment where a proper campaign can be fought, culminating with the 'liberation' of iceland.
The current setup is essentially not dynamic at all due to over scripting of the events.

Then again.. other people will love it the way it is.. you can't please everyone!

#561266 - 06/19/01 06:46 PM Re: Steve Hunt...it's going from bad to worse! *SPOILER*  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,364
Tracer[formerly of CS] Offline
Senior Member
Tracer[formerly of CS]  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,364
Steve, i just completed the above mission and after 20 attempts!
Then i'm hit with this Motherland thing....now thinking of the CRV-7's with the Medusa's? i loaded up with 80 of them!!

Now what the hell is going on here Steve?
I hit it (i can assure you) with the full 80 -give or take a few- CRV-7's from way out it's rear gun range. What the **** it's still flying!!!!
So i empty my complete gun's into it! then eventually bail out through mega damage keeping my gun's trained on it.

It **still** flies........man,oh,man,oh,man...this is unbelievable

To top it all, i *can't* carry anymore CRV-7's, because i have to keep sufficient A/A weapon's for it's damn escort's it drops from it's wing's (8 of them) Read the above scenario and you'll understand why....

This reminds me of when Half-Life "lost the plot" at the end, and we ended up on an alien planet -totally screwed up and thrown away the script or what?

This is seriously getting painful Steve....i can't imagine this having had lot's of play-testing with 1 pilot.........??

This obviously wasn't taken into account in my books and anybody else's when they get to this point as *Hengist* say's


A *lite sim = fun*(or supposed to?) why make this soooo bloody hard for someone who has triumphed by playing the game right through from day 2 with just one pilot -not reloading or anything- only to be punished left-right and center with continual reloads **because i have one pilot** and it's not because my weapon's missed, oh no! It's because someone made the motherland plane excruciatingly mind numbingly hard to take down with -can you believe it ---A/G weapons! Not good ol' Meteor's/ASRAAMs but CRV-7's.................what is this all about????

I'm trying to like this *and* finish it!

There is only so much a man can take....

Tracer



------------------
"Flying is the second hardest thing known to man.........the first is landing!"

#561267 - 06/19/01 07:31 PM Re: Steve Hunt...it's going from bad to worse! *SPOILER*  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


LOL!!!!!!!!


May the force be with you my friend...along with a good dose of patience

-.-

#561268 - 06/19/01 07:39 PM Re: Steve Hunt...it's going from bad to worse! *SPOILER*  
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 974
Blond_Knight Offline
Member
Blond_Knight  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 974
I dont know if Im sad, or relieved that I dont plan on playing the game until the forth day.

------------------
See-Decide-Attack-Reverse

#561269 - 06/20/01 03:42 AM Re: Steve Hunt...it's going from bad to worse! *SPOILER*  
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,573
Psycho Offline
Member
Psycho  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,573
NY, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Tracer[formerly of CS]:
Steve, i just completed the above mission and after 20 attempts!
Then i'm hit with this Motherland thing....now thinking of the CRV-7's with the Medusa's? i loaded up with 80 of them!!

Now what the hell is going on here Steve?
I hit it (i can assure you) with the full 80 -give or take a few- CRV-7's from way out it's rear gun range. What the **** it's still flying!!!!
So i empty my complete gun's into it! then eventually bail out through mega damage keeping my gun's trained on it.

It **still** flies........man,oh,man,oh,man...this is unbelievable



Did you try the BFG with Quad Damage??

#561270 - 06/20/01 08:39 AM Re: Steve Hunt...it's going from bad to worse! *SPOILER*  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Tracer,

Have you tried it on level one?

It is possible with one pilot, but it'll be very very hard - the reason is that there needs to be a challenge for someone who has 3 or 6 pilots left....

You can do it, but here is a question - is it valid for a dynamic campaign to evolve in to a no win situation because of the cumulative effect of the events that have come before it? - I would say yes - the hard part from the players point of view is knowing when this has happened and therefore prevent them from fighting for a lost cause.

Cheers,

Steve

#561271 - 06/20/01 09:01 AM Re: Steve Hunt...it's going from bad to worse! *SPOILER*  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hunt:
You can do it, but here is a question - is it valid for a dynamic campaign to evolve in to a no win situation because of the cumulative effect of the events that have come before it? - I would say yes - the hard part from the players point of view is knowing when this has happened and therefore prevent them from fighting for a lost cause.


As far as I'm concerned, yes, although admittedly it won't be as good for gameplay reasons.

That would be realistic in terms of a war, rather than the campaign saying, "right, this guy's doing quite well, so lets chuck a medusa his way" - that, as far as I'm concerned is a scripted event that changes the campaign.

If we're not winning the war, we should be able to tell. I think the reason it's hard to know what's happened is because it isn't easy to see what's happened in the game.

Lets face it, we have to wait for the war reports to see what's going on, and even then, we just get the number of tanks and aircraft on each side and a map of who's got what sectors.

If we had those available at the click of the button all the time, IMO it would be a lot better.

In TAW we always had graphs, maps etc and details of all things going on - that gave us control over the war.

Cheers,
Manteau

#561272 - 06/20/01 09:01 AM Re: Steve Hunt...it's going from bad to worse! *SPOILER*  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hunt:


You can do it, but here is a question - is it valid for a dynamic campaign to evolve in to a no win situation because of the cumulative effect of the events that have come before it? - I would say yes - the hard part from the players point of view is knowing when this has happened and therefore prevent them from fighting for a lost cause.

Cheers,

Steve


Hi Steve, nice to hear from you again, I still having a lot of fun with Typhoon (Except any thing to do with Brimstones, they are hopeless), but I have not reached the final levels of the game yet.

I just wanted to say that, yes in a dynamic campaign it must be possible for it to evolve into a no win situation, otherwise where is the challenge, but from reading this thread it seem that you have invoked an end game monster the "Medusa".

Basically creating a win or loose mission, if I understand this thread right, you can beat the hell out of the Russians but still loose if the medusas get through.

This I think is very suitable for some types of first person shooters, but I am not sure about it in a flight sim.

Since it is already known that you need at least a couple of pilots to kill these Medusa, a lot of people will have to restart their campaigns, in order to have enough pilots at the end.

So what am I saying : yes a Dynamic campaign must be able to evolve into a no win situation, but the no win situation should not be scripted or else there is a chance to do brilliantly vs dynamic campaign and still loose vs script. Which must be extremely disapointing.

TT




[This message has been edited by Turbo_tiger (edited 06-20-2001).]

#561273 - 06/20/01 09:04 AM Re: Steve Hunt...it's going from bad to worse! *SPOILER*  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well said Turbo_tiger, I agree!

Cheers,
Manteau

#561274 - 06/20/01 09:48 AM Re: Steve Hunt...it's going from bad to worse! *SPOILER*  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Think you misunderstand slightly - the Medusa mission isn't a scripted 'no win' mission, it's a scripted finally to the game which you can either win or lose depending on the state of the island, number of pilots and player skill.

I can see why some players don't like this system and I think your points are perfectly valid (one reason to open things up) - but the alternative, and one which we were also critisied for, is to have at some abitiary point a 'war is won' messages appears and the game ends with a bit of a 'oh - have I - that's nice'.

We wanted Typhoon to end with a real ding dong of a battle between you and some focal point. This is a more traditional ending to a game, but I always thought that more serious simmers wouldn't like it (you can't please all the people.... etc etc.)

Hey ho...

Steve

#561275 - 06/20/01 10:02 AM Re: Steve Hunt...it's going from bad to worse! *SPOILER*  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Fair enough Steve, I admit that does make sense, even if I don't like it myself.

I'll pipe down a bit

Cheers,
Manteau

#561276 - 06/20/01 10:11 AM Re: Steve Hunt...it's going from bad to worse! *SPOILER*  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 604
Uroboros Offline
Member
Uroboros  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 604
Brooklyn, NY
Thanx for clearing that up Steve. Every campaign has an ending which defines whether you win or lose, in Typhoon's case the Medusa scenerio is it.

If this was a real life war and Russia choose to pull this scenerio on you (as a last ditch effort); your chances of defeating them would depend on your resources. Sounds like the game is exactly the same. Guess I'll know when I get to it

Still looking forward to you opening up the campaign though.

#561277 - 06/20/01 12:25 PM Re: Steve Hunt...it's going from bad to worse! *SPOILER*  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hunt:

I can see why some players don't like this system and I think your points are perfectly valid (one reason to open things up) - but the alternative, and one which we were also critisied for, is to have at some abitiary point a 'war is won' messages appears and the game ends with a bit of a 'oh - have I - that's nice'.

We wanted Typhoon to end with a real ding dong of a battle between you and some focal point. This is a more traditional ending to a game, but I always thought that more serious simmers wouldn't like it (you can't please all the people.... etc etc.)

Hey ho...

Steve


Hi Steve, you are right about your 'war is won' 'oh - have I - that's nice' argument, that is a very lame ending, especially if it you comes out of the blue.

But in a truly dynamic campaign with no scripted events, except maybe to get the war going initially, there are various possible outcomes
  • The Russians run ICEFOR right of Iceland : you loose
  • You run the Russians of Iceland : you win
  • The war continues forth and back indefinitely.


You could also set up a list of clearly defined objectives, and if they are met you win, then 'war is won' wouldn't be quite so lame.

I dont consider the "medusa" mission a "no win" mission, but rather a "win or loose" mission, where the outcome of the campaign hinges on your success in this one mission.

I am really looking forward to your "opened up campaign" as this will give the game so much more replayability.

TT

#561278 - 06/20/01 12:48 PM Re: Steve Hunt...it's going from bad to worse! *SPOILER*  
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 137
Yorkshire Tea Offline
Member
Yorkshire Tea  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 137
Leeds, W.Yorks, UK
In a truely dynamic campaign then surely you should occasionally get "one mission - win/loose" situations.

For example, in an air war hitting the enemies frontline bases and eradicating his airforce on the ground before it has a chance to do anything. However shouldn't those missions be "dynamically generated", e.g. the Strategic AI (and the player) should know that the loss of necessary forces forces them to either:

a) Throw in the towel or (more scarily)
b) Reach for the unpredicatble response.

For example TOAW II scenarios can use event triggers with a percentage of occurance. Applied to Typhoon this might be something along the lines of:

Destruction of S-37 fleet = 70% chance of capitulation, 20% chance deploy chemical medusas, 10% Hit Rekjavik with something very unpleasant. Could such variable triggers be added to Typhoons' more scripted strategic AI? Are they already implemented in some way? If they could be implemented then I'm sure people could come up with interesting and varied campaigns.

I also understand that use of such events could frustrate some gamers and make for some very short campaigns.

Sorry to mention it, but I think Falcon4's design attitude got it right. Build a wargame and then bolt a simulator to that. If they'd added more random elements to F4 campaign - e.g. pop up insertions by DPRK commando units etc. then mmmmmmmm...

For me, in the current Typhoon game, the S-37 Intercept and Interdiction missions make "sense" and a good game turning point (in a very sick sort of way). You can almost hear them (the AI generals) thinking, 50+ S-37 down for so few Typhoon losses? Right, we've lost - lets nuke em. Good ending, just too predictable.

#561279 - 06/20/01 01:04 PM Re: Steve Hunt...it's going from bad to worse! *SPOILER*  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 7
Badboy Offline
Junior Member
Badboy  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 7
UK
Hi TT

Quote:
Originally posted by Turbo_tiger:
You could also set up a list of clearly defined objectives, and if they are met you win, then 'war is won' wouldn't be quite so lame.



Good thoughts, and if I understand it correctly, setting win/lose criteria is one of the things you will be able to do when/if the campaign is opened up.

Badboy

#561280 - 06/20/01 10:59 PM Re: Steve Hunt...it's going from bad to worse! *SPOILER*  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 669
Hitman IF Offline
Member
Hitman IF  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 669
Aberdeen, Scotland
I can see your thinking Steve when you put in the final end of game big battle. However, I think that perhaps as EFT is intended as a lite sim it would be far better to have the Medusa's as the final mission. It is at least possible for about 50pc of pilots.
Hopefully we can have this sorted when the campaign is opened up. One idea I just thought of - wouldn't it be a great feature for a game like EFT to have new campaigns released every few months or something. That would sure be a boost to it's long term appeal. Hey, perhaps this could be in the next Rage Warrington sim!
Sorry, I'll stop going on now. Long live Typhoon.

------------------
---SVBS squad is playing Typhoon now at http://www.svbs.co.uk !---


---SVBS squad is playing Lock On, ADF/TAW and Typhoon now at http://www.svbs.co.uk !---
#561281 - 06/21/01 01:50 PM Re: Steve Hunt...it's going from bad to worse! *SPOILER*  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hunt:
but the alternative, and one which we were also critisied for, is to have at some abitiary point a 'war is won' messages appears and the game ends with a bit of a 'oh - have I - that's nice'.
Steve


Why have a message that says 'You have won', when you can create a conditional branch that cuts to an appropriate video seen (e.g. remnants of the defeated forces withdrawing, scenes of fireworks, medals and handshakes for the victor... etc).

I know that this is expensive, but isn't there anything that already exists that could be used?


------------------
\:\)

Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#561282 - 06/22/01 07:53 AM Re: Steve Hunt...it's going from bad to worse! *SPOILER*  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi,

My point here wasn't if at the end we played a video or printed a message on the screen, my point was that when the win conditions are met the game would just end - problem is that you as a player would probably not be involved in that final winning event.

So, for eaxmple, you might be planning a mission when an AI pilot blows up the last Russian tank on the island and the war is won. But from your point of view it just ends wihtout you being involved at a seemingly arbitary time.

That's how EF used to feel to me - hence my 'war is won - oh - is it?' line.

No finally to the game with the player involved.

Cheers,

Steve

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Pride Of Jenni race win
by NoFlyBoy. 04/15/24 12:22 AM
It's Friday: grown up humor for the weekend.
by NoFlyBoy. 04/12/24 01:41 PM
OJ Simpson Dead at 76
by bones. 04/11/24 03:02 PM
They wokefied tomb raider !!
by Blade_RJ. 04/10/24 03:09 PM
Good F-35 Podcast
by RossUK. 04/08/24 09:02 AM
Gleda Estes
by Tarnsman. 04/06/24 06:22 PM
Food Safety and Bad Roommates
by KRT_Bong. 04/04/24 02:16 AM
Incredible historical ironies
by PanzerMeyer. 04/03/24 01:56 PM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0