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#561077 - 06/19/01 08:44 PM Re: Closing the EFT hangar...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfrick:
All I'm saying is that PGMs are called Precission and Guided for a reason..... With all due respect to gameplay, the ones in EFT are neither.

Cheers, WUlf.




Infact they are both. Reminds me of the old saying about bad workmen blaming their tools.

Badboy

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#561078 - 06/19/01 09:05 PM Re: Closing the EFT hangar...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Badboy:

Infact they are both. Reminds me of the old saying about bad workmen blaming their tools.

Badboy



They are both if you launch them under stupid suicidal situations.

Other than that, the only thing I found them good for was against ekranoplanes that couldn't fire back.

Cheers,
Manteau

#561079 - 06/19/01 09:20 PM Re: Closing the EFT hangar...  

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Hey BadBoy

What's the point of having the most hi-tech fighter and weapons system if you still have to use WWII tactics to get a kill? Is that for the sake of gameplay? I don't think so, a gameplayer wants just to blow up things easily right? While and HC simmers wants realism. They will be both disappointed apparently.
I think that instead of implementing a more sophisticated control of the battlefield we see an implemented difficulty in destroying targets.Or maybe I'm missing something and I just got spoiled by all the other sims that I fly ( F/A-18, Flanker 2.0, Falcon4.0, F15, LongBow,EECH)

We will have to wait, and buy , the strategic guide that is work in progress to know that, :-/

The same degree of difficulty in achieving a kill could have been obtained with some mobile SAM escorting the tanks for example, or making them less easy to spot with radar jammers, flares , and/or antimissile systems.


Also, if employing the weapons in EFT HAS to be so tricky (not difficult !!!) I would have expected some technical expanations on the manual, I found none.

Is that also because discovering things by yourself makes a game more interesting? Or because the new-simmer will probably feel helpless and buy the strategic guide?

I hope we will see EFT shining as it should after the patch.


i'm a dot!

-.-



[This message has been edited by -Dot- (edited 06-19-2001).]

#561080 - 06/19/01 11:51 PM Re: Closing the EFT hangar...  
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Hi Manteau

Quote:
Originally posted by Manteau:
They are both if you launch them under stupid suicidal situations.


As I have said before, the Brimstones can be employed with very little risk, but not if folk insist on attempting to employ it in "stupid suicidal situations".

One of the things that I like about Typhoon is that it compels the player to give pilot survival a much higher priority than any other sim'. If folk use the correct attack profile they can decimate armoured columns and multiple air defences, in many cases with nothing more than minor damage. When employed with the same sort of care, precision, and dare I say prudence, that one might expect of anybody placing their life on the line, it can also be achieved without return fire, or at least from such an advantageous situation that the effects of return fire are minimized.

I can't think why folk shouldn't be able to achieve the same results I've been seeing, accept perhaps that suicidal tendency we all share at times when impatience and the desire for action overwhelm our better judgement. If folk are placing themselves in stupid or suicidal situations in order to employ these weapons... It certainly isn't because there is no other option.


Quote:
Other than that, the only thing I found them good for was against ekranoplanes that couldn't fire back.

Cheers,
Manteau


You shouldn't be wasting guided weapons on defenceless targets... Shame on you

Badboy


[This message has been edited by Badboy (edited 06-19-2001).]

#561081 - 06/20/01 01:44 AM Re: Closing the EFT hangar...  
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Hi Dot-

Quote:
Originally posted by -Dot-:
Hey BadBoy
What's the point of having the most hi-tech fighter and weapons system if you still have to use WWII tactics to get a kill? Is that for the sake of gameplay? I don't think so, a gameplayer wants just to blow up things easily right? While and HC simmers wants realism. They will be both disappointed apparently.



Perhaps, but I would suggest that much of the difficulty we are seeing in this forum is related to the fact that there is something in this sim for everyone. It provides an intense and immersive quality that attracts every type of player. While it certainly leans away from what might normally be described as hardcore, it retains enough hardcore features to provide a real challenge, even to the more experienced player. That seems to be at least a part of the problem.


Quote:
I think that instead of implementing a more sophisticated control of the battlefield we see an implemented difficulty in destroying targets.



I dont think thats a fair comment, particularly if you are basing it solely on the modelling decision made regarding the size of the explosive charge in the Brimstones warhead? Indeed, if you look at the list of sim's you have posted below, the quirks and bugs existing in the release versions of their flight and weapon models were legion, Falcon4 alone was almost unplayable.


Quote:
Or maybe I'm missing something and I just got spoiled by all the other sims that I fly ( F/A-18, Flanker 2.0, Falcon4.0, F15, LongBow,EECH)



Leaving your sarcasm aside, I think you have probably hit the nail on the head. Without doubt, many folk seem to attach a degree of machismo to an impressive list of games that in reality is nothing more than baggage. I think it is a shame for anyone to allow the pedigree of such a fine list to spoil the fun they get from other products.


Quote:
We will have to wait, and buy , the strategic guide that is work in progress to know that, :-/



In an ideal world, of course, you wouldnt have had to wait. For a stand-alone strategy guide, there are some very good reasons for having it available the day the sim is released. From a players perspective, the advantage is that the answers are there from the beginning. However, the EF2000 strategy guide was released about a year after the game, and was considered by many to be a valuable resource. For the authors it was a painful time, watching our fellow flight sim buddies struggling while we had the answers, but couldnt talk prior to publication. Trust me, Andy and I feel your pain.


If you are right and the add-on makes Typhoon shine once again for you, I hope the work Andy and I have done will enhance your appreciation and enjoyment of weapons delivery within the sim.

Best wishes

Badboy

#561082 - 06/20/01 02:18 AM Re: Closing the EFT hangar...  

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w/ all this bitchin around, it really convinced dat dis product should have been release for the consoles instead. Badboy have u tried Janes F/A-18E? if u have... then maybe you will understand what we are bitchin about. i'm just wondering why do u have to use yor gun trigger in yor stick for a wheel brake? it should have been mapped to the other keys instead.

#561083 - 06/20/01 08:05 AM Re: Closing the EFT hangar...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Badboy:

In an ideal world, of course, you wouldnt have had to wait. For a stand-alone strategy guide, there are some very good reasons for having it available the day the sim is released. From a players perspective, the advantage is that the answers are there from the beginning. However, the EF2000 strategy guide was released about a year after the game, and was considered by many to be a valuable resource. For the authors it was a painful time, watching our fellow flight sim buddies struggling while we had the answers, but couldnt talk prior to publication. Trust me, Andy and I feel your pain.


If you are right and the add-on makes Typhoon shine once again for you, I hope the work Andy and I have done will enhance your appreciation and enjoyment of weapons delivery within the sim.

Best wishes

Badboy


Ohhhh Badboy, do we live in the same world?


In the ideal world, a product should come with proper instructions, to let the new user get the optimum performance from the beginning. And not have to buy at strategy guide to be successfull in killing a tank.

All the way through this thread you are hinting at you know how to do it but the same time you fail to tell us how, I have tried every imaginable attack profile for brimstones, and yes there are some that dont work at all, bot so far none that work satisfactorily.

If you know that holy secret of Brimstone attack profiles tell us now

Frankly I object to you admitting to working with Andy on this guide and hinting that there will a good solution to our problem in it, but I guess we will have to buy it to get the info about a simple thing such as firing a missile at a tank, do the people behind all this think that we are all idiots, willing to throw money down a black hole to get information that should have been there in the first place.
Imagine buying a new VCR and having to pay extra to get a manual that covers all its modes of operation.

And as you have dragged Andy into this discussion, I remember him previously saying that EFT was never meant to be like SEF2000 or TAW, but it was supposed to be a "lighter" sim, OK may be so, but a light sim with missiles so sensitive that you need to go buy a strategy guide to get any use out of them.

Now all we need is Steve Hunt coming on and telling us that the update is going to be released as an pay for add on.

I really hope that its only my imagination, but this is beginning to smell just a little


[This message has been edited by Turbo_tiger (edited 06-20-2001).]

#561084 - 06/20/01 08:11 AM Re: Closing the EFT hangar...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Badboy:
As I have said before, the Brimstones can be employed with very little risk, but not if folk insist on attempting to employ it in "stupid suicidal situations".

One of the things that I like about Typhoon is that it compels the player to give pilot survival a much higher priority than any other sim'. If folk use the correct attack profile they can decimate armoured columns and multiple air defences, in many cases with nothing more than minor damage. When employed with the same sort of care, precision, and dare I say prudence, that one might expect of anybody placing their life on the line, it can also be achieved without return fire, or at least from such an advantageous situation that the effects of return fire are minimized.

I can't think why folk shouldn't be able to achieve the same results I've been seeing, accept perhaps that suicidal tendency we all share at times when impatience and the desire for action overwhelm our better judgement. If folk are placing themselves in stupid or suicidal situations in order to employ these weapons... It certainly isn't because there is no other option.


As I have posted God knows how many times before, I have tried numerous ways of attacking T90 tanks.

I've even twice posted some of the methods I've used.

I've tried every way I can think of, and I've tried the ways you and Andy have suggested - with no significant improvments.

The range bar for the Brimstones says 15 nm.
Steve has said that the range bar is dodgy, and to use half that = 7.5.

I get no hits with that.

I get an occasional hit at 4 nm.

At 3 nm, the T90s start firing. They're T90s! - okay, they do have machine guns on them, but they are not AAA, so what they doing, firing with such accuracy?

I'm quite happy to ignore this fact, IF I could hit something.

At 3 nm, I get more hits, but still not even 2 in 3 - AND it takes 2 hits to kill a tank.

So I'm now messing around at low level within 3 nm of the tanks that are firing back at me, and I need to attack that tank AGAIN, after hitting it the first time.

(Admittedly, I can occasionally get two hits on one tank firing two Brimstones in short succession, but this is rare (and this is the bit I don't understand - the lanch perameteres are just about identical).)

I really wish that ACMI was a feature of Typhoon, then I could record what I'm doing and show you, because I just don't understand.

The only think I can think of, is that the release version of the game is different from your pre-release version - the compile date for my .exe is 27th March - quite a time after you got your version I think - things were probably tweaked - Steve's been asked this, but he hasn't replied.

Cheers,
Manteau

#561085 - 06/20/01 08:32 AM Re: Closing the EFT hangar...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Manteau:
As I have posted God knows how many times before, I have tried numerous ways of attacking T90 tanks.

I've even twice posted some of the methods I've used.

I've tried every way I can think of, and I've tried the ways you and Andy have suggested - with no significant improvments.

The range bar for the Brimstones says 15 nm.
Steve has said that the range bar is dodgy, and to use half that = 7.5.

I get no hits with that.

I get an occasional hit at 4 nm.

At 3 nm, the T90s start firing. They're T90s! - okay, they do have machine guns on them, but they are not AAA, so what they doing, firing with such accuracy?

I'm quite happy to ignore this fact, IF I could hit something.

At 3 nm, I get more hits, but still not even 2 in 3 - AND it takes 2 hits to kill a tank.

So I'm now messing around at low level within 3 nm of the tanks that are firing back at me, and I need to attack that tank AGAIN, after hitting it the first time.

(Admittedly, I can occasionally get two hits on one tank firing two Brimstones in short succession, but this is rare (and this is the bit I don't understand - the lanch perameteres are just about identical).)

I really wish that ACMI was a feature of Typhoon, then I could record what I'm doing and show you, because I just don't understand.

The only think I can think of, is that the release version of the game is different from your pre-release version - the compile date for my .exe is 27th March - quite a time after you got your version I think - things were probably tweaked - Steve's been asked this, but he hasn't replied.

Cheers,
Manteau


Well said Manteau, I agree 100%

#561086 - 06/20/01 10:08 AM Re: Closing the EFT hangar...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by skooter:
w/ all this bitchin around, it really convinced dat dis product should have been release for the consoles instead.


Only to have thousands more PS2 players complaining that it should have been released for the PC

Quote:
Badboy have u tried Janes F/A-18E? if u have... then maybe you will understand what we are bitchin about.


Yep, I own that game, along with almost every other air combat game released in the last twelve years. I also understand what the bitching is about and I don't believe it has anything to do with Janes F/A-18E. But what ails the flight sim community is another can of worms altogether.

Picking up that point though, if there is a previous title that could have influenced Typhoons reception it would have been one or both of its predecessors from the DiD stable. However, the nature of Typhoon was explained and continuously reinforced on the boards and many fine reviews, I dont think there is any excuse for any of their readers who were expecting another Janes F/A-18.

Quote:
i'm just wondering why do u have to use yor gun trigger in yor stick for a wheel brake? it should have been mapped to the other keys instead.


Why? Do you really expect to use your cannon while you taxi?

Let me guess, you crept up behind that tank pulled the trigger




And the wheel brakes came on


Badboy

#561087 - 06/20/01 10:17 AM Re: Closing the EFT hangar...  
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Hehehe..Good one Badboy. Maybe you can run that tank over.

#561088 - 06/20/01 10:23 AM Re: Closing the EFT hangar...  

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Heh - probably more effective than firing Brimstones at it

Cheers,
Manteau

#561089 - 06/20/01 11:14 AM Re: Closing the EFT hangar...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Manteau:
The only think I can think of, is that the release version of the game is different from your pre-release version - the compile date for my .exe is 27th March - quite a time after you got your version I think - things were probably tweaked - Steve's been asked this, but he hasn't replied.

Cheers,
Manteau



I've spoken to Steve about that and he assures me my version is the same as yours. Thats far too important to be overlooked and Steve is very professional, I trust him implicitly.

Ok, I'll contact Rage and ask for permission to post an extract from the part of the Strategy Guide dealing with the Brimstone employment, they may agree to post a Typhoon Tip on their web page, since it seems to be an issue. Not to mention, I hate to see grown men cry

Ill get back to you on that.

Badboy

#561090 - 06/20/01 11:20 AM Re: Closing the EFT hangar...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Uroboros:
Hehehe..Good one Badboy. Maybe you can run that tank over.


I was thinking more along the lines of a pitot tube up the exhaust


Badboy

#561091 - 06/20/01 04:42 PM Re: Closing the EFT hangar...  

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Ok BadBoy I hear you, still I can't understand why after a masterpiece like TAW rage did not toke it improve it, enhanced with the most jaw-dropping graphic on earth and realased it with so many options that you could have gone from " Crimson Sky" realism to F/A-18 Hardcorism.

I understand that Rage-DID was trying to came out with a different sim, still I can't understand why they went the easy way, that is making the game more "difficult" just making targets more difficult to destroy , repeating my last post "The same degree of difficulty in achieving a kill could have been obtained with some mobile SAM escorting the tanks for example, or making them less easy to spot with radar jammers, flares , and/or antimissile systems"

Why not? One last thing, If I were producing a new sim, I would have had at least half of the members of this board as beta-testers HC advisors, we like this stuff, and listening to what is said here (apart the trolls obviously), could help Rage-Did make a better product.


We(I)get "upset" just because we love sims! Use this "passion" at your advantage, you (place company name) will have a better product on the market, we will have hours, weeks, month years of great flying time.

That said I am looking forward to see that extract from the SGuide about Brims and change my mind about EFT.

Please tell me that in the patch you are going to put:

A real invasion force
Weaps on ferry mission ( I'll think about the rest)
Maveriks
More effective AAMS


Ok I'll stop with the wish list.

Shark1 arching...
Shark 1 sweet and sweet continue outbound..
Shark 1 twitching control...contact magic 1...
Magic one tactical!


I know I'm sick...THE MEDICINE! WHERE"S THAT DAMN MEDICINE???

-.-

#561092 - 06/20/01 09:17 PM Re: Closing the EFT hangar...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Badboy:
I was thinking more along the lines of a pitot tube up the exhaust


[g]
That would be doubly impressive, considering Typhoons don't have them. [g]

Magnet

#561093 - 06/20/01 09:55 PM Re: Closing the EFT hangar...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Magnet:
That would be doubly impressive, considering Typhoons don't have them.
Magnet



Hi Magnet

How the hell do Typhoons detemine their airspeed without pitot tubes ?

#561094 - 06/20/01 10:06 PM Re: Closing the EFT hangar...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Turbo_tiger:
Hi Magnet

How the hell do Typhoons detemine their airspeed without pitot tubes ?


They use multi-function air data probes:

http://www.dapss.com/MPI/X/Vol.10/issue0800/0800C-international2.htm



Magnet

[This message has been edited by Magnet (edited 06-20-2001).]

#561095 - 06/20/01 11:06 PM Re: Closing the EFT hangar...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Magnet:
They use multi-function air data probes:

Magnet


Thanks Mike...

Looks just like a little pitot tube fixed to a weather vane for AoA, with a built in heater... What will they think of next? [g]

Any idea how much those little gizmos cost? I suspect it's a multi million pound contract and the French will probably end up doubling the cost. [g]


Badboy



[This message has been edited by Badboy (edited 06-20-2001).]

#561096 - 06/21/01 04:59 AM Re: Closing the EFT hangar...  

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Yes u right badboy yo don't have to use yor cannon during taxi...but come to think of it badboy.....is it smart to implement this way? nahhhhhh.... wht if yor master arm sw. is not in safe mode hmmm? ohhhhhh....i almost forgot everything is taken care of that stupid game's engine. ahhhh...might as well use the gamepad.

oh badboy have u played MS Train Sumulator? u should get a copy of it.....

[This message has been edited by skooter (edited 06-21-2001).]

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