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#560653 - 06/05/01 06:27 PM Re: Not a rant (for once..) atleast I'll try really hard *G*  

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sorry bro , but the poll was too long winded - i kinda got bored and lost in the middle

keep it simple -

like

qu- do you want fries with that ??

now that i can handle , the answer is always yes , and i will have a McFlurry for my pudding thanks for asking !


Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#560654 - 06/05/01 06:34 PM Re: Not a rant (for once..) atleast I'll try really hard *G*  
Joined: May 2001
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valleyboy Offline
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Mines a Steak and Kidney pie and chips....with several helpings of strongbow, vodka & red bull, reef, and smirnoff ice!
followed by an entire day of feeling ill!


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If it aint bust, you haven't played with it enough!


"The engines are overheating, and so am I!!, we either make a move, or blow up!, So which is it to be?!"
----------------------------------
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#560655 - 06/05/01 06:50 PM Re: Not a rant (for once..) atleast I'll try really hard *G*  
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Quote:
Originally posted by ktakeda:
A magazine review is pointless since it is *one* person's couple-of-hours-fly-about....The big picture is made up of a majority don't you agree?

I have to disagree with you there - I have to defend my profession, right!!!

I DO agree that there are some magazines that take that stand. However, I've never agreed to work on one like that. I spend a minimum of 50-100 hours for every game I review. I've spent a lot more than that playing Typhoon since I received the Beta last Autumn. And I've loved every minute of it. Well apart from waiting between missions ;-)

Reviews are one person's view of a product. Sure. But I, like many others, take this job seriously. A review should give you enough to make an informed choice for purchasing a game. What an experienced reviewer can give you is perspective. I've reviewed many, many flight sims. Bad ones as well as good ones. 'Lite' and 'hardcore' ones. Therefore I can bring that experience to bear when considering the latest sim. It puts me in a better possition to assess a game, and its suitability to different audiences. Ultimately, the reader wants to know if they should buy the game. The worst reviews in the world are ones that do not give an opinion, but sit on the fence. 'This game will suit fans of the genre' is about the most uninformative conclusion you can give to a review.

Everyone is different, reviewers included. My suggestion is to check the Byline of reviews you read. Find out whose opinions you share, and who you do not agree with. Then you will know who to trust. I do my best to be objective, but I know what I like, and that might not be what you like. But diversity is a wonderful thing :-)

Cheers folks,
Kenji
http://www.gamespot.co.uk and
http://www.pcpilot.net


Oh hell....so what if i say "one *magazine's* opinion...??? That's got you eh

By the way, i'm a PCZone subscriber! lol,lol
Why..?
Because it's cheaper than the rest(2.66 per issue delivered) and at that price i eventualy get a review of the most popular fsims released(well it's better than paying 5 per mag!) +2 CD's.....beat that!?

Oh and they gave Typhoon 85% and recommended it to both hard and lite simmers.

I still state that reading these boards that people post *true* opinions of the game (they bought it and are right to have a say about it!) is still the best way of finding out if the sim is for you or not.

There is no way i would buy 5 mags(or 1) to get an overall percentage or opinion of Typhoon on =25 or there about's

Would you believe everything a car salesman told you at the first garage...........? Thought not

Tracer



------------------
"Flying is the second hardest thing known to man.........the first is landing!"

#560656 - 06/05/01 07:45 PM Re: Not a rant (for once..) atleast I'll try really hard *G*  

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Excellent post Tracer, well summed up... You hit the nail on the head with that one

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#560657 - 06/05/01 08:03 PM Re: Not a rant (for once..) atleast I'll try really hard *G*  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Vaider-Raider:

This was a poll once *G*


lol Vaider,

And there was me thinking it was the wild west with rules for 'some'



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Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#560658 - 06/05/01 10:14 PM Re: Not a rant (for once..) atleast I'll try really hard *G*  
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Ok two main points


Firstly, I think there is a big distinction to be made here. There are the main stream printed gaming magazines, for whom flight sims are an occasional burden, their reviews are unfortunately all to often written by people who obviously have no affinity for the genre. Id be very surprised if most of the experienced flight sim pilots here havent long since given up trying to see through the strained wit and clich laden banter you read in them. Of course, most of the people who buy those magazines to learn about flight sims dont know any better, if they did they wouldnt waste their time or money. Of course thats a gross generalisation, and there are some notable exceptions. For example, there was a time when PCGamer in the US had an editor like Denny Atkin who produced excellent flight sim related material, while the UK PCGamer often appeared to have their flight sim reviews written by Unreal Tournament players Admittedly, a contrast that serves to muddy the water.

Fortunately for everyone, there are reviewers who are dedicated to flight sims! Reviewers with wide experience and knowledge who treat their work as a serious responsibility to their readers. It seems that many of them also publish their work here on the Internet and people like Kenji, Denny and our own Dan Crenshaw are just a few of many writers who are actually worth buying a print magazine to read, even though you dont have to. More importantly, unlike car salesman, most reviewers are not motivated by the desire to close a deal and are guided by an unwritten code of ethics that their credibility depends upon. They can always be trusted for an unbiased and scrupulously honest opinion.

In contrast to that, reading these boards is not the best way to judge the quality of a flight sim because many of the posters have an axe to grind. The messages are generally biased one way or another, either due some extreme of disappointment or pleasure in the simulation. Or as we often see, posts may be driven by a desire for patches or perhaps to lobby for additional features. Either way, those arent the best motives on which to base an opinion of a flight sim. This board in particular is a case in point.

Secondly, there are indeed a lot of passionate feelings on these boards, good and bad, rants from both extremes and a good deal more repetition. Of course it could be that the majority of folk here could well have no other motive beyond persistent whining for its own sake, and even though it looks that way, I dont believe it. Despite all the negativity I believe that most of the people here are, or have, enjoyed Typhoon very much. Anyone who didnt probably wouldnt stick around. We all love flight sims and it appears to me that most of the negative messages are little more than cries for change or enhancement. I believe that most folk here are well meaning. However, by posting in a strongly negative manner it is possible that some new users wont see such things for what they really are. There is a risk that the fact you are enjoying a game so much that you are compelled to complain about it, in the hope that it will be changed more to your liking, will be missed.

For those who have a genuine desire for change or enhancement, their objectives are unlikely to be achieved by persuading new users that the game is bad, because a drop in sales is the worst possible incentive for a developer considering further work on a product, so in effect the negative approach becomes self-defeating.

Good things are far more likely to happen when the developer is receiving feedback and suggestions for additional work on their product in a positive and constructive manner. I hope that is what we all really want here?

Badboy


[This message has been edited by Badboy (edited 06-06-2001).]

#560659 - 06/06/01 10:23 AM Re: Not a rant (for once..) atleast I'll try really hard *G*  

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Tracer wrote
Would you believe everything a car salesman told you at the first garage...........? Thought not

Hey Tracer, you're dead right, it's like baseball, never swing at the first pitch :-)

If you like PC Zone then great, you've found a magazine that you like, stick with it!

That's my point, try them all, fathom out who shares your opinions and then stick with them. You WILL find that people move around in the magazine industry though, so keep tabs on who your fave reviewers are and follow them. What can happen is if an editor moves they take their favourite staff with them. Be warned! Whoever is at PC Zone now may be at PC Gamer tomorrow!

Definitely don't spend 25 quid on magazines to try to gather all of the opinions. Spend it on the game and make your OWN opinion - and then post it on here :-) If you do it often enough why not try becoming a contributing reviewer on a web site (or mag) somewhere! They're aren't enough dedicated flight sim journalists around :-)

Cheers,
Kenji

#560660 - 06/06/01 12:30 PM Re: Not a rant (for once..) atleast I'll try really hard *G*  
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Poll Answers:
A: Yes it was what I thought I paid for.
B: Yes it was worth what I paid for.

C: No.
If they do not create an add-on that addresses specific issues and improves the game, then it's life on my hard disk will be very short. Such is the result of not making the sim extensible or including a full featured mission editor.

Part Two:
1: Yes
I expected it to be a light, fun sim.
However, I expected a sort of Roleplaying system with the pilots where perhaps you had points to assign to them.
I did not expect the long waits between missions. I was hoping for a mission editor.
2: About a few days after Hengist
3: No.
Hence the reason I don't feel I can write a review on it. My Suncom F15 Talon trigger button no longer responds. Need a new one.
4: I'm a game fan.And I like flying games.
Hardcore/Softcore is all bull. They're all games. And there are hardcore players of all types of games.


-Gel214th
#560661 - 06/06/01 12:30 PM Re: Not a rant (for once..) atleast I'll try really hard *G*  

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[i]Badboy wrote...]/i]
. It seems that many of them also publish their work here on the Internet and people like Kenji, Denny and our own Dan Crenshaw are just a few of many writers who are actually worth buying a print magazine to read, even though you dont have to.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Badboy :-) Another guy to watch is Bruce Geryk at Gamespot US. He's a top reviewer who loves his sims.

most reviewers are not motivated by the desire to close a deal and are guided by an unwritten code of ethics that their credibility depends upon. They can always be trusted for an unbiased and scrupulously honest opinion.

In an ideal world this is true. Unfortunately some magazines are less scrupulous. The problem comes with advertising contracts and 'exclusive' deals. For example, exclusive previews, reviews, cover artwork and demos. Games and magazine publishers and their marketing machines are very competitive. Magazine publisher X may strike a BIG deal with games publisher Y, say an advertising schedule for several months across several titles. And not just PC mags, but Playstation, Dreamcast, etc, titles too. The editor of a given mag is then under some pressure to make sure that Y does not get annoyed. If a reviewer submits a particularly poor score to a high profile game from publisher Y then steps may be taken to 'spruce up' the review. This DOES happen and can sometimes explain why there is some discrepancy between reviews in different magazines. Not always, but sometimes. Luckily I have always worked with great editors who have not buckled under the pressure from above.

For example. At PC Gaming World we gave Jedi Knight 3*s, and with good reason. LucasArts were none too pleased as this was a BIG title for them and complained to the magazine. More than that, they withdrew sending us any preview or review material. That put the magazine at a competitive disadvantage, we could not 'feature' LucasArts titles as other mags, who were in favour with LucasArts, could. We had to go the the shops to buy games for review (they're normally sent to us). Our editor, David Kelly, made readers aware of the situation in his following Editorial. We received wholehearted support from our readership, and us reviewers were very happy to see our editor backing us to the hilt.

Our editor has been in the business a longtime (he edited Sinclair User!) and had enough strength to not buckle under commercial pressures. There are lots of good editors like him, but a few who may not be so upstanding.

Another story, at EMAP an angry software marketing man started F***ing and Blinding at another editor, threatening to withdraw all advertising from all magazines because of a bad review. We had security march the guy out the building .

So just be aware that in the cut-throat world of magazines all may not be as it seems. Stay skeptical and remember to re-read reviews after you've had time to assess a game for yourself to see if you agree or not :-) And post on the web to let others know. But remember, coherent arguments carry far more weight than heated, emotional, and rude postings.

They can always be trusted for an unbiased and scrupulously honest opinion.

Okay, so it may seem like I'm shooting myself in the foot with the above comments. On the contrary, many reviews are unbiased and scrupuluously honest. I certainly try to be, as far as is humanely possible. Just be aware that there is a LOT ($billions of dollars$) at stake in the games industry, and not everyone plays by the rules.

Cheers,
Kenji

[This message has been edited by ktakeda (edited 06-06-2001).]

[This message has been edited by ktakeda (edited 06-06-2001).]

#560662 - 06/06/01 07:17 PM Re: Not a rant (for once..) atleast I'll try really hard *G*  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,364
Tracer[formerly of CS] Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by tacked:
Tracer wrote
Would you believe everything a car salesman told you at the first garage...........? Thought not

Hey Tracer, you're dead right, it's like baseball, never swing at the first pitch :-)

If you like PC Zone then great, you've found a magazine that you like, stick with it!

That's my point, try them all, fathom out who shares your opinions and then stick with them. You WILL find that people move around in the magazine industry though, so keep tabs on who your fave reviewers are and follow them. What can happen is if an editor moves they take their favourite staff with them. Be warned! Whoever is at PC Zone now may be at PC Gamer tomorrow!

Definitely don't spend 25 quid on magazines to try to gather all of the opinions. Spend it on the game and make your OWN opinion - and then post it on here :-) If you do it often enough why not try becoming a contributing reviewer on a web site (or mag) somewhere! They're aren't enough dedicated flight sim journalists around :-)

Cheers,
Kenji


Nice one mate!

*shock* a sensible reply

Seriously though, when i've had confab's with Journalists etc it normaly end's up with a bit of S*** flinging!

So i stereotypically got my piece in first.......

Your cool mate

Cheers
Tracer

OT: Badboy that's a bit unfair to a lot of simmer's who have paid for this game and are entitled to an opinion about it?
Remember there is a helluva lot of people out there that *do not* get refund's...unlike people like ktakeda
/yourselves who play Beta code or preview it and ultimately have the satisfaction of (literally) throwing it to one side if it's crap!
Magazines can say "Typhoon is utter bollocks...49%" Is that any different from someone paying for a game on the basis of another mags review and being conned into thinking it was great(in his eye's?)
But instead posting his opinion here?

I personally think it's better to come to an unbiased forum and read many posts good/bad to build an overall picture as ktakeda say's.

Quote: "An axe to grind" is pretty unfair comment if they paid for it.
Whereas if it is a review(magazine etc), it can be taken with a pinch of salt! After all magazine's very rarely reply to people whom post an annoyance(say constructive criticism) to them and basically laugh at the poor mug whom bought their mag *and* bought the developer's game!
Many a review i have read and bought the game then thought "what the hell game was he playing/reviewing.. because this certainly wasn't it!"

When it comes to S*** chucking then that's a no-no.
Constructive criticism is a boon!

No game smell's of roses......no matter how hard a developer want's it to But in amongst *poorly* worded criticism there are many improvements that a developer should listen too and take on board?(just cut out the bad bit's

Isn't it funny when you look at it
Amazon.co/com rests it's sales on millions of ordinary people that buy from it doing reviews on *ALL* it's product's?
These are totally unbiased reviews of games everything! Yet they make a profit because people review something and post it up as they see it.....we make our minds by reading it *as* it is.........?


Tracer

------------------
"Flying is the second hardest thing known to man.........the first is landing!"

[This message has been edited by Tracer[formerly of CS] (edited 06-06-2001).]

#560663 - 06/06/01 08:49 PM Re: Not a rant (for once..) atleast I'll try really hard *G*  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 7
Badboy Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by ktakeda:
Magazine publisher X may strike a BIG deal with games publisher Y, say an advertising schedule for several months across several titles. And not just PC mags, but Playstation, Dreamcast, etc, titles too. The editor of a given mag is then under some pressure to make sure that Y does not get annoyed.



Im very well aware of the many stories of what goes on between publishers and print magazines, even though Ive only written for two, PC Gamer as freelance and Enemy Lock On as their Air Combat Editor. I have always been paid for my work and have been very conscious of the ethics involved. But Ive never experienced any conflict of interest first hand, or been aware of any among the writers Ive worked with However, for anyone interested in finding out a little more about the sort of thing being referred to, take a look at these three articles, it may be an eye opener Or not


http://www.sfweekly.com/extra/plaything/playpen/082797.html

http://www.sfweekly.com/extra/plaything/playpen/090597.html

http://www.sfweekly.com/extra/plaything/playpen/091297.html

For balance, this by way of rebuttal:

http://www.wired.com/news/topstories/0,1287,6785,00.html


There was also an informative, albeit somewhat heated, series of threads generated by this on usenet, that sucked in large numbers of writers at the time, made for interesting bedtime reading Dejavu may have them archived.


Quote:
Okay, so it may seem like I'm shooting myself in the foot with the above comments. On the contrary, many reviews are unbiased and scrupuluously honest.


Which was my point.

However, in my view, print magazines are the wrong place to look for good flight sim reviews. Sadly the good ones are too few and far between and finding that out is likely to cost more than your last few flight sims. My advice to anyone looking for the skinny on their latest sim' desire would be to check out the reviews on the popular sim related web sites, there may be almost as many pitfalls, but in my opinion the media and authors are more transparent, and it doesnt cost you as much to find out who the good ones are

Badboy




[This message has been edited by Badboy (edited 06-06-2001).]

#560664 - 06/07/01 04:23 PM Re: Not a rant (for once..) atleast I'll try really hard *G*  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,364
Tracer[formerly of CS] Offline
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Tracer[formerly of CS]  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,364
Quote:
Originally posted by Badboy:
Im very well aware of the many stories of what goes on between publishers and print magazines, even though Ive only written for two, PC Gamer as freelance and Enemy Lock On as their Air Combat Editor. I have always been paid for my work and have been very conscious of the ethics involved.


Nice to hear it Leon....ELO burned me big time!
I waited(as did *many* other's) for an issue ## to appear....a year went past "we're changing printer/publisher" was the excuses! In the end the tossers went t*t's up and kept my subscription money for about 6months worth of mags!!
so here's *one* punter that supported his hobby only for s*** to happen!
Did i get an apologetic letter.........?

You wonder why i don't trust magazine/online reviews?!

Someone get's paid to do it(by the developer)
Whilst the wage payer(games player) get's burned!

Tracer

------------------
"Flying is the second hardest thing known to man.........the first is landing!"

[This message has been edited by Tracer[formerly of CS] (edited 06-07-2001).]

#560665 - 06/07/01 08:43 PM Re: Not a rant (for once..) atleast I'll try really hard *G*  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 7
Badboy Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tracer[formerly of CS]:
Nice to hear it Leon....ELO burned me big time!
I waited(as did *many* other's) for an issue ## to appear....a year went past "we're changing printer/publisher" was the excuses! In the end the tossers went t*t's up and kept my subscription money for about 6months worth of mags!!
so here's *one* punter that supported his hobby only for s*** to happen!
Did i get an apologetic letter.........?

You wonder why i don't trust magazine/online reviews?!

Someone get's paid to do it(by the developer)
Whilst the wage payer(games player) get's burned!

Tracer




Tracer,

Sorry to hear you got burned on that one, Im sure you are one of many. I know it will be little consolation, but you have probably read on these boards that when that particular publisher folded, the readers werent the only folk to lose, and Im talking about a great deal more than a 6-month subscription. I know exactly how you feel though I lost a twelve-month subscription twice! Once on PC Ace and again on Debrief when they folded, one in 1996 and the other in 1998. All I can say regarding ELO is that some very good people did their utmost to make the magazine successful. I know that the writers were all good people!

However, the fact that Ive lost money on previous magazines wont make me bitter, or find me calling the owners Tossers. It is almost always a personal disaster for the owner of a business/magazine when it folds and when Debfrief failed Im sure Tom Basham, suffered much greater loss than I did. Id even go as far as to say that if another combat flight sim specific print magazine appears, Ill be among the first to throw a 12 month subscription at it, in the hope it will succeed.

Any way, I hope you have better luck in the future!

Best wishes

Badboy

#560666 - 06/08/01 11:58 AM Re: Not a rant (for once..) atleast I'll try really hard *G*  

**DONOTDELETE**
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Id even go as far as to say that if another combat flight sim specific print magazine appears, Ill be among the first to throw a 12 month subscription at it, in the hope it will succeed.

Gratuitous plug warning

Okay, so who didn't see this coming, but....

Since I've been part of PC Pilot magazine from the start I can tell you that we are trying to offer flight simmers the knowledgeable, in-depth reviews and features that the community deserves.

Since we started over a year ago we've been slowly growing. On the combat side, myself and Len "Viking1" Hjalmarson cover most things. The issue out next week has my more in-depth Eurofighter Review, including a short interview with Don Whiteford at DID (Steve's Boss?!?).

We're already working on the following issue, and I'm waiting for WWII Online and Op Flashpoint to drop through my mailbox. I'll be looking at these from a flight simmers point of view, and not pulling any punches!!!

While we cover a lot of civil flight sims, we try to cover most military ones too. What I like about the mag is that I can write LONG articles. Makes a change from the 1/2 page reviews I've been restricted to on other mainstream games mags

Anyway, http://www.pcpilot.net is where it's at. Money back guarantee and all. The number of dissatsified readers is in single figures still, and that's after 1.5 years We've just started selling in WH Smiths and Forbuoys in the UK too.

Okay, plug over with, sorry about that but maybe you'll like it Stranger things have happened!!! If not, let me know @ kenji@pcpilot.net, and tell me why. We're always looking for feedback as we try to make every issue better than the last.

Advert over with , you can change back channels now.

Whoa, I can feel the flames coming already

Cheers,
Kenji



[This message has been edited by ktakeda (edited 06-08-2001).]

#560667 - 06/08/01 01:32 PM Re: Not a rant (for once..) atleast I'll try really hard *G*  

**DONOTDELETE**
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gel214th:
Poll Answers:
A: Yes it was what I thought I paid for.
B: Yes it was worth what I paid for.



lol Gel,

You sure about those first 2 answers??? (I wont go into specifics, but how much did you exactly pay? ).




------------------
\:\)

Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#560668 - 06/08/01 08:39 PM Re: Not a rant (for once..) atleast I'll try really hard *G*  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,364
Tracer[formerly of CS] Offline
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,364
Quote:
Originally posted by Badboy:

Tracer,

Sorry to hear you got burned on that one, Im sure you are one of many. I know it will be little consolation, but you have probably read on these boards that when that particular publisher folded, the readers werent the only folk to lose, and Im talking about a great deal more than a 6-month subscription. I know exactly how you feel though I lost a twelve-month subscription twice! Once on PC Ace and again on Debrief when they folded, one in 1996 and the other in 1998. All I can say regarding ELO is that some very good people did their utmost to make the magazine successful. I know that the writers were all good people!

However, the fact that Ive lost money on previous magazines wont make me bitter, or find me calling the owners Tossers. It is almost always a personal disaster for the owner of a business/magazine when it folds and when Debfrief failed Im sure Tom Basham, suffered much greater loss than I did. Id even go as far as to say that if another combat flight sim specific print magazine appears, Ill be among the first to throw a 12 month subscription at it, in the hope it will succeed.

Any way, I hope you have better luck in the future!

Best wishes

Badboy



Sorry Badboy........hmmm "Tosser's"
I admit i was angry at the time i wrote it

The thing i forgot to quote, was ELO asked those that were due refunds on their subcription to contact them personaly and they would be refunded....well i was one of them....so it rubbed salt in my wounds you see? GRRRRRR! is putting it mildly

That and i was unemployed at the time (money was tight) the wife went beserk when we never got refunded....lesson learned.

Cheers
Tracer



------------------
"Flying is the second hardest thing known to man.........the first is landing!"

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