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#560424 - 06/01/01 12:10 PM RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Hi ppl
Yeah am serious. I feel sick, after reading some of the posts on this forum. To once again gauge the current range of opinions,problems, and short comings of EFT.
I have a tight feeling across my abs and that kinda indegestive, overactive stomach acid sensation you get after eating a whole jar of gherkins!!!
After about 100 hours flying EFT it's time to lay my cards on the table.
Now am sure that already the EFT cheerleaders "undesireable topic launch sensors" are screaming like a banshees. Which will result in them vectoring in with the usual put downs, but i think am speaking for a lot of ppl who have more in mind than just engratiating themselves with Steve and Rage.
First let me just say that EFT looks awesome, simply the best looking jet sim i have ever seen, 3D engine and art work is brilliant. But unfortunately thats where the superlatives end !!!
the avionic representaion is a joke, no LANTIRN, almost no alternative radar modes, no weapons cue indication, ( no wonder ppl can't get hits with missles ) launch cues exist in real fighters for a good reason = it's hard to kill bad guys without them !!!
Flight model almost as bad gear down at just about any air speed !?!?!
And that dippy nose flutter thing that i remember from EF2000. ( maybe it's right, caused by the canards ?? comments from anyone at Eurofighter pls )
As far as "Gameplay elements" are concerned this has to be the worst aspect of EFT. The growing list of complaints about dubious or just plane bone headed gameplay elements is to long to quote here, and i hope too long for Steve and Rage to ignore.
Yeah i know all the platidudious arguements that will be leveled "it's a sim for the masses" "F4 fans need not apply" etc. But at the end of the day the masses don't play flight sims !!!!
And sim enthusiast largely don't want to play a FPS with a HUD that needs a throttle ( as long as it's not USB that is ).
what really burns me up is that this sim could have been so awesome. You ex-DID guys at Rage had all the right pedigrees to draw on, but you really really have dropped the ball on this one.
Guess the decline started with F22 ADF, wot no dynamic campaign, oh but here comes F22 TAW .... at full price. Simmers said "no thanks". Then Wargasm another attempt at bridging the gamer gap that failed, mainly due to bugs if i remember rightly.
Now being fair to Steve and his team a lot of the historic proplems/mistakes i just outlined prolly had there roots in publisher pressures, enforced on the dev team. And thats one thing that i do fully understand.
But EFT was a new chance to get things right again, so many post have said it but i'll say it again "All you had to do was take the best elements of EF2000 and TAW and combine them with your gorgeous revamped 3D engine".
If you'd just used ppl with the sim community as early testers you'd have got back all the feedback on which direction to take you needed !!!
So where are we know ??
Well apparently we may get a dynamic campaign addon, but major changes in avionics & aircraft systems are unlikely. I even get the impression that the will to change avionics and systems is lacking ( i could be wrong, i only live in Gods country am not the big G himself ).
So that leaves me like a lotta of other ppl back playing TAW @ 1024, EFT box sits on my self praying for a redemtive addon ( maybe i should just take it back ?? )
Oh yeah by the way i own ever sim DID ever produced including F29 retaliator and the space sim that came before inferno!!!
Want a suggestion on what to do next ??? Remember your old "chopper project" ( yeah am that much of a DID anorak ) the bladeless ramjet powered heli thing from way back, that never saw the light of day, well throw your new engine at that. then com back and give us a Eurofighter we can all be proud of PLEASE.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#560425 - 06/01/01 12:29 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
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Bloody hell Guru, even I had forgot working on the 'Chopper' project, nice memory mate.

Now that I remember, most of the texture-mapping process, ( which back then was still in it's infancy), that came to be used in EF2000 was devised whilst prototyping 'chopper'. One of the enviroments was the rocky mountains I do believe,... god I feel old.
Good idea though.

#560426 - 06/01/01 12:31 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Just out of interest, what was this chopper thingy?

Cheers,
Manteau

#560427 - 06/01/01 12:34 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Yeah,

I've heard of it before, but have never seen it. Any old screenshots floating around?

Btw Guru, some good points made in that post. I'm always available for beta testing, and constructive advice... hint

P.S. I also think it was very fair to mention...

"Now being fair to Steve and his team a lot of the historic proplems/mistakes i just outlined prolly had there roots in publisher pressures, enforced on the dev team. And thats one thing that i do fully understand."

------------------


Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley


[This message has been edited by *Hengist* (edited 06-01-2001).]

#560428 - 06/01/01 12:44 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
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Hi Manteau,
'Chopper' for t'was it's only name, was basically a testbed for working out 'new' techinques in enviroment building and polygon texture mapping and creation. The coders had developed the next stage of engine D.I.D were using back then, the famous 'DIDLIB', which allowed us artists to move from gouraud shading to 256 colour maps (*Gasp* - 256 colours). A rough concept based around a next generation helicopter a'la Airwolf was devised, but not much else in terms of storyline. As far as the enviorments were concerned we were to base it in different sites around the globe, if I remember correctly, (hey it was almost 8 years ago), we built a rocky mountain scenario and a Hawaiian island with, animating water wake, which I believe was picked up upon by the one computer mag that previewed it. AS I said in my previous post most of the ideas for texturing EF2000 came from working on this project. Ahh, those were the days, (rocks slowly in chair, and sucks on now toothless gums)...

Cheers, Marco.

#560429 - 06/01/01 01:21 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Well, I'm having a blast. I guess I'm one of those masses that don't play flight sims. Never played F-4 or F-18, don't have the time. But I do have time for Typhoon because I don't need a masters degree to play the game.

Typhoon reminds me of the sims of old. F-19, F-15 II, etc.. These sims were simple mainly because the computers couldn't handle a serious sim. But they were damn fun to play, and I missed them, until now.

Regards

#560430 - 06/01/01 02:43 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Hi guys
Thanks for the response. Sorry if anyone finds parts of the post kinda OTT. But think of me as a Man City fan, who's just watched Man United take the cup right from under our noses, in the last 10sec of injury time with a dubious penalty, Soooo close but foiled AGAIN. Am not a footie fan but it kinda captures the emotions. I am a huge DID fan, playing DID games made me start messing with 3D studio ( Dos ver ) quite my life as a photographer, and go back to Uni at age 30 to learn 3D animation and get into games dev.... i kid you not.
i would love to see the chopper project reborn, IMHO it's the kinda sim/game that would have major appeal right across the spectrum.
Reason i remember it is 'cause it was one of the first times that i read about someone developing a game similar to ideas that i'd had myself.
Ok other stuff i remember reading about the chopper proj: you supposed to be part of some dodgey shadowy black ops organisation. It was gonna have a kinda RPG element you where ment to be able to wander around your bases on foot and nosey into hangars and stuff. Apparently by doing this you where gonna discover that the organisation and missions had more to them than you where directly informed of.
Once again i wanna say for those who don't know the in's and out's of the games industry. All the games we love to have fun with are created in a commercial environment. Much like the music industry, behind the scenes it's the publishers who call mosta the shots.

But if you think something is screwed "SAY SO" it may get fixed.

Marco pls email me we'll chat guruzeb@blueyonder.co.uk

Thanks all
Zeb

#560431 - 06/01/01 02:48 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by moloch16:
Well, I'm having a blast. I guess I'm one of those masses that don't play flight sims. Never played F-4 or F-18, don't have the time. But I do have time for Typhoon because I don't need a masters degree to play the game.

Typhoon reminds me of the sims of old. F-19, F-15 II, etc.. These sims were simple mainly because the computers couldn't handle a serious sim. But they were damn fun to play, and I missed them, until now.

Regards

Yeah Moloch
i remember those oldies, great fun. Not having a go at ppl who don't wanna read a 500 manual 'cause to be honest i still haven't read more than 50 pages of my own F4 manual. But it's quite possible to produce a sim with scalable complexity, pretty wise on commercial grounds as well, and that way everyone can have what they want. Including the publishers and investors hopefully.

Later
Zeb

#560432 - 06/01/01 07:03 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Hi,
Nice balanced posts...
I think this point pretty much solves the hardcore/lite debate? At least as far as flying the thing's concerned:
Quote:
Originally posted by Guru Zeb:
But it's quite possible to produce a sim with scalable complexity, pretty wise on commercial grounds as well, and that way everyone can have what they want.


We need to be allowed to do this though:
Quote:
Originally posted by Guru Zeb:
But if you think something is screwed "SAY SO" it may get fixed.

However much we might respect the game as is (or not)... Not only does our feedback help drive future development, but in the course of discussion, all of us learn more about the world of game design. 5000+ posts is a lot. Maybe enough to influence the money men a bit if the discussion stays lively?

#560433 - 06/01/01 08:28 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 5,955
Andy Bush Offline
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Hotshot

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St Charles, MO
Guru Zeb

>>But if you think something is screwed "SAY SO" it may get fixed.<<

I admit, you have a way with positive feedback.

In case you missed this in other posts...our forums here at SimHQ are not opportunities to rant. Our readers come here for constructive info, advice, and help. There are plenty of other web sites where people can take their dissatisfaction. If this is how you want to operate, then I suggest you leave.

Andy

#560434 - 06/01/01 08:49 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
Joined: Oct 2006
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Guru Zeb..your issues on the flight model have already been answered. I'm surprised you didn't come upon them in your review of the messages of this forum.

The Eurofighter guys have already stated that the flight model is the closest they've experienced to the real thing in a computer game. They liked it.

They also were behind the issue of Situational Awareness, and the use of Pop Up MFDs as opposed to some Down In the Cockpit view.

The sim was never meant to have any sort of detailed avionics. It just wasn't in the cards, and wasn't mentioned in any of the previews that I saw, that we should expect this.

The idea that the masses do not play Flight Sims..is just what I believe Rage wanted to change with Typhoon. it IS a great flight sim..for the masses,and one that Flight Simmers can have fun with as well.

I'm looking forward to the Add-on, and hope they fix a few of the issues that are within the scope of the present game engine which have been mentioned on these boards.





------------------
-Gel214th
CO 214th Annihilators

http://www.214th.com/flanker2


-Gel214th
#560435 - 06/02/01 01:47 AM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

**DONOTDELETE**
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Guru Zeb

>>But if you think something is screwed "SAY SO" it may get fixed.<<

I admit, you have a way with positive feedback.

In case you missed this in other posts...our forums here at SimHQ are not opportunities to rant. Our readers come here for constructive info, advice, and help. There are plenty of other web sites where people can take their dissatisfaction. If this is how you want to operate, then I suggest you leave.

Andy



Woah... Andy!!!

Guru's Headline may have been show stopping, but I feel that his post was justified.

I feel that he gave a fair balance of the Pro's and Con's in relation to Typhoon, and he even acknowledged that it wasn't Steve H's/DiD/Rage's fault entireley.

With regards to his 'ranting' ; We have to step back and think of the service this site gives to people who are undecided as to whether or not to purchase Typhoon... regardless of any associated personal commercial gain that may come from sales.

My persoanl view is that Typhoon is an excellent 'entry level sim' (in regards to similar titles like USAF). However, having had a fair bit of discussion with Steve Hunt on this forum, I feel that Typhoon will be adjusted to suit the more demanding simmer in time as well (granted it aint gonna suit everyone's taste 100%). However, I'm sure it will get better.

I feel Guru's post was on the whole constructive (I even saw ex-DiD staff corresponding with him, and not being negative about the points he raised).

To say "If this is how you want to operate, then I suggest you leave", I feel is a tadge to strong. Perhaps you've had a lot to drink (like myself tonight), and will wake up tomorrow saying "Oh no, I didn't really say that, did I?".

Can't we all live in a democracy and respect others opinions... as long as they aint abusive?

Ok I've said enough... I'm gonna go and find a Tree to hug



------------------
\:\)

Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#560436 - 06/02/01 02:00 AM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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lol, did I say ex_DiD staff back there? Whoops sorry

------------------
\:\)

Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#560437 - 06/02/01 03:45 AM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
Joined: Oct 1999
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Andy Bush Offline
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Andy Bush  Offline
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Hengist

>>regardless of any associated personal commercial gain that may come from sales.<<

Maybe I misunderstand you. I hope so...but just in case I haven't, let's get something straight. Leon and I are being compensated up front for the Strategy Guide. Our fee has nothing to do with sales. Are you clear on that now?

>>Can't we all...respect others opinions... as long as they aint abusive?<<

Of course. I guess you don't find expressions such as "EFT cheerleaders...vectoring in with the usual put downs...just engratiating themselves with Steve and Rage...the avionic representaion is a joke...dippy nose flutter...dubious or just plane bone headed...you really really have dropped the ball on this one." to be 'abusive'.

If not, I do.

This thread has contributed nothing to what has been already said many times over. Unfortunately, some people came to this game with false expectations. The basic concept was discussed here months ago. If someone was expecting EF2000 ver 3.0 or Falcon5, then they were not paying attention.

One more thing. Your comment about drinking was out of line. One more wise ass remark like that and you are history on these boards.

Andy

#560438 - 06/02/01 12:30 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
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Tiger Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by *Hengist*:
Perhaps you've had a lot to drink (like myself tonight), and will wake up tomorrow saying "Oh no, I didn't really say that, did I?".


Hengist...

It is only too obvious that you post many of your messages after having had "a lot to drink" That you are happy for everyone here to know that you are a piss-head is fine, but that's no reason to accuse others!

I came here to read and learn about Typhoon not to read about why it wasn't the game some folk expected it to be. Then suffer while those whines were echoed ad nauseam!!

The original poster claimed to have read these boards before posting... Bullshit! The nature of the game was made clear long before it was released, there was no reason for anyone to have expected anything other than what they got.

Despite that I see exactly the same whine made by different posters, yourself included, all of them seem to have been hoping for a different game.

Wake up guys, Typhoon is what it is, nobody claimed it would be any different, and some folk like it that way.

I come here because I want to have my Typhoon experience enhanced by folk who are better at the game than I am. I don't care to see your simi drunken juvenile rants!

Tig


Tiger
#560439 - 06/02/01 12:42 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

**DONOTDELETE**
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Quote:
Originally posted by Guru Zeb:
Hi ppl
Yeah am serious. I feel sick, after reading some of the posts on this forum. To once again gauge the current range of opinions,problems, and short comings of EFT.
I have a tight feeling across my abs and that kinda indegestive, overactive stomach acid sensation you get after eating a whole jar of gherkins!!!


That's sad... Take some advice, turn your computer off and go get a life!

I'm having a blast with Typhoon! If you are feeling ill just reading about it you have some serious issues buddy!

Andy,

I'm with you, please shut these whiners down before we all feel sick!

#560440 - 06/02/01 01:33 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Andy,
This environment seems to be getting a little dangerous... How big of a leap is it from chucking folks off the board for breaching the 'dogma' to, say, sending 'round the thought police?...

Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Of course. I guess you don't find expressions such as... ...to be 'abusive'. If not, I do.


OK, I can understand a bit of a 'cultural collision' in the humour department... To my UK sensibilities "EFT cheerleaders...vectoring in with the usual put downs" is a pretty well crafted way of adding some wit to a serious point... But, I used to live in the US, no-one ever got their big sticks out if I came out with things like that.

Even if someone does inadvertently offend any sensibilities, is threatening them the best way of dealing with it.

Now, this is a question not an opinion. I've never subscribed to any BBS before, so does the role of administrator
mean you effectively 'own' the board, or is it more of a moderating role?
The reason I ask is because I thought the various comments about the commercial side of the game were targeted at the relationship between development and marketing of games... So I don't think anyone was attacking Leon or yourself for writing the Strategy Guide. I guess I'm saying 'have I made a mistake and subscribed to a board about Strategy Guides?'

Ironically, I did post a couple of purely gameplay questions the other night, and haven't had a single response. Don't mind, but I think you may have to accept that people want to discuss other aspects of the game.

When you say "The basic concept was discussed here months ago" in response to comments that don't conform to the dogma of your realm, you are being optimistic about the amount of 'research' people put into games purchases. If this game is, as stated, partly aimed at opening up the Sim market, then you have to expect that a lot of people will buy the thing off the shelf, play for a bit and then stumble on this board via the official site... I doubt most of them will have read the 5000+ existing posts, but they will want to contribute to on-going discussions of the moment. We're playing a game here, not studying for our Doctorates.
A lot of these discussions are not soley about the 'lite' or otherwise nature of the game anyway. Also note that the very positive gamespot review, whilst it does present and justify a position on the 'lite' aspects of the game, does not touch at all on issues such as the weapon effectiveness or the way the campaign is slaved to the storyline. These are issues for many of us, and we seem to want to discuss them.
I do notice that where people's issues are being addressed, the discussions quickly become more developmental than critical. Unfortunately, for those of us who cannot programme, there has been very little response other than to say that things will be a bit different after a patch/add-on.

One final thing... This threat:
Quote:
One more wise ass remark like that and you are history on these boards.

Ich Swilt! (Old English, ~ 'you've killed me'... I think?)
C'mon, he wasn't trying to imply that you were drinking, he was trying to find a light hearted way of saying 'back down a bit before you regret something'... Er, Friday night, couple of pints, things you wish you hadn't said... couple of pints in Hengist and it all hangs together without too much imagination.

Repressing free speech never works too well... Spanish Inquisition/Belsen/Vietnam and Cambodia/Bosnia... ?DID. I've worked with refugees, seen the cigarrette burns and heard the stories. Don't go there mate.




[This message has been edited by Cnebba (edited 06-02-2001).]

#560441 - 06/02/01 01:41 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

**DONOTDELETE**
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Anonymous
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Just to keep things fair, Andy has posted an informative reply to the questions mentioned above... Cheers.
And sorry for cocking up the Bold/Unbold commands... C'est la vie... Ah, all fixed now, knew there was a way you could edit yourself.

[This message has been edited by Cnebba (edited 06-02-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Cnebba (edited 06-02-2001).]

#560442 - 06/02/01 02:50 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2
Tiger Offline
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Tiger  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2
Quote:
Originally posted by Cnebba:
OK, I can understand a bit of a 'cultural collision' in the humour department... To my UK sensibilities "EFT cheerleaders...vectoring in with the usual put downs" is a pretty well crafted way of adding some wit to a serious point...


To my UK sensibilities it looked a lot more like you were just trying to sound clever. It wasn't funny, it wasn't original, it wasn't even very witty. You just sound like a spoiled kid who has been given the wrong toy for Christmas.


Quote:
But, I used to live in the US, no-one ever got their big sticks out if I came out with things like that.


You mean you talk like that in real life? I bet you sound like a right royal twat! Those yanks were obviously humouring you and thinking what an asshole you were.

Quote:
Ironically, I did post a couple of purely gameplay questions the other night, and haven't had a single response.


It looks like you've received a response to all eight of your mostly smartass posts. You appear to be nothing more than a blatant troll.

Quote:
Repressing free speech never works too well... Spanish Inquisition/Belsen/Vietnam and Cambodia/Bosnia... ?DID. I've worked with refugees, seen the cigarrette burns and heard the stories. Don't go there mate.


There goes your credibility!

You have already whined so often that you have made yourself feel sick. It seems you wont stop until you get everyone blowing chunks with you. Freedom of speech is a fine thing, but some people abuse the privilege!


Tig


Tiger
#560443 - 06/02/01 03:01 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

**DONOTDELETE**
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
There goes your credibility!


I think you're confusing who you're replying to.

Cheers,
Manteau

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