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#560424 - 06/01/01 12:10 PM RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Hi ppl
Yeah am serious. I feel sick, after reading some of the posts on this forum. To once again gauge the current range of opinions,problems, and short comings of EFT.
I have a tight feeling across my abs and that kinda indegestive, overactive stomach acid sensation you get after eating a whole jar of gherkins!!!
After about 100 hours flying EFT it's time to lay my cards on the table.
Now am sure that already the EFT cheerleaders "undesireable topic launch sensors" are screaming like a banshees. Which will result in them vectoring in with the usual put downs, but i think am speaking for a lot of ppl who have more in mind than just engratiating themselves with Steve and Rage.
First let me just say that EFT looks awesome, simply the best looking jet sim i have ever seen, 3D engine and art work is brilliant. But unfortunately thats where the superlatives end !!!
the avionic representaion is a joke, no LANTIRN, almost no alternative radar modes, no weapons cue indication, ( no wonder ppl can't get hits with missles ) launch cues exist in real fighters for a good reason = it's hard to kill bad guys without them !!!
Flight model almost as bad gear down at just about any air speed !?!?!
And that dippy nose flutter thing that i remember from EF2000. ( maybe it's right, caused by the canards ?? comments from anyone at Eurofighter pls )
As far as "Gameplay elements" are concerned this has to be the worst aspect of EFT. The growing list of complaints about dubious or just plane bone headed gameplay elements is to long to quote here, and i hope too long for Steve and Rage to ignore.
Yeah i know all the platidudious arguements that will be leveled "it's a sim for the masses" "F4 fans need not apply" etc. But at the end of the day the masses don't play flight sims !!!!
And sim enthusiast largely don't want to play a FPS with a HUD that needs a throttle ( as long as it's not USB that is ).
what really burns me up is that this sim could have been so awesome. You ex-DID guys at Rage had all the right pedigrees to draw on, but you really really have dropped the ball on this one.
Guess the decline started with F22 ADF, wot no dynamic campaign, oh but here comes F22 TAW .... at full price. Simmers said "no thanks". Then Wargasm another attempt at bridging the gamer gap that failed, mainly due to bugs if i remember rightly.
Now being fair to Steve and his team a lot of the historic proplems/mistakes i just outlined prolly had there roots in publisher pressures, enforced on the dev team. And thats one thing that i do fully understand.
But EFT was a new chance to get things right again, so many post have said it but i'll say it again "All you had to do was take the best elements of EF2000 and TAW and combine them with your gorgeous revamped 3D engine".
If you'd just used ppl with the sim community as early testers you'd have got back all the feedback on which direction to take you needed !!!
So where are we know ??
Well apparently we may get a dynamic campaign addon, but major changes in avionics & aircraft systems are unlikely. I even get the impression that the will to change avionics and systems is lacking ( i could be wrong, i only live in Gods country am not the big G himself ).
So that leaves me like a lotta of other ppl back playing TAW @ 1024, EFT box sits on my self praying for a redemtive addon ( maybe i should just take it back ?? )
Oh yeah by the way i own ever sim DID ever produced including F29 retaliator and the space sim that came before inferno!!!
Want a suggestion on what to do next ??? Remember your old "chopper project" ( yeah am that much of a DID anorak ) the bladeless ramjet powered heli thing from way back, that never saw the light of day, well throw your new engine at that. then com back and give us a Eurofighter we can all be proud of PLEASE.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#560425 - 06/01/01 12:29 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
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Bloody hell Guru, even I had forgot working on the 'Chopper' project, nice memory mate.

Now that I remember, most of the texture-mapping process, ( which back then was still in it's infancy), that came to be used in EF2000 was devised whilst prototyping 'chopper'. One of the enviroments was the rocky mountains I do believe,... god I feel old.
Good idea though.

#560426 - 06/01/01 12:31 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Just out of interest, what was this chopper thingy?

Cheers,
Manteau

#560427 - 06/01/01 12:34 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Yeah,

I've heard of it before, but have never seen it. Any old screenshots floating around?

Btw Guru, some good points made in that post. I'm always available for beta testing, and constructive advice... hint

P.S. I also think it was very fair to mention...

"Now being fair to Steve and his team a lot of the historic proplems/mistakes i just outlined prolly had there roots in publisher pressures, enforced on the dev team. And thats one thing that i do fully understand."

------------------


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Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley


[This message has been edited by *Hengist* (edited 06-01-2001).]

#560428 - 06/01/01 12:44 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
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Hi Manteau,
'Chopper' for t'was it's only name, was basically a testbed for working out 'new' techinques in enviroment building and polygon texture mapping and creation. The coders had developed the next stage of engine D.I.D were using back then, the famous 'DIDLIB', which allowed us artists to move from gouraud shading to 256 colour maps (*Gasp* - 256 colours). A rough concept based around a next generation helicopter a'la Airwolf was devised, but not much else in terms of storyline. As far as the enviorments were concerned we were to base it in different sites around the globe, if I remember correctly, (hey it was almost 8 years ago), we built a rocky mountain scenario and a Hawaiian island with, animating water wake, which I believe was picked up upon by the one computer mag that previewed it. AS I said in my previous post most of the ideas for texturing EF2000 came from working on this project. Ahh, those were the days, (rocks slowly in chair, and sucks on now toothless gums)...

Cheers, Marco.

#560429 - 06/01/01 01:21 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Well, I'm having a blast. I guess I'm one of those masses that don't play flight sims. Never played F-4 or F-18, don't have the time. But I do have time for Typhoon because I don't need a masters degree to play the game.

Typhoon reminds me of the sims of old. F-19, F-15 II, etc.. These sims were simple mainly because the computers couldn't handle a serious sim. But they were damn fun to play, and I missed them, until now.

Regards

#560430 - 06/01/01 02:43 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Hi guys
Thanks for the response. Sorry if anyone finds parts of the post kinda OTT. But think of me as a Man City fan, who's just watched Man United take the cup right from under our noses, in the last 10sec of injury time with a dubious penalty, Soooo close but foiled AGAIN. Am not a footie fan but it kinda captures the emotions. I am a huge DID fan, playing DID games made me start messing with 3D studio ( Dos ver ) quite my life as a photographer, and go back to Uni at age 30 to learn 3D animation and get into games dev.... i kid you not.
i would love to see the chopper project reborn, IMHO it's the kinda sim/game that would have major appeal right across the spectrum.
Reason i remember it is 'cause it was one of the first times that i read about someone developing a game similar to ideas that i'd had myself.
Ok other stuff i remember reading about the chopper proj: you supposed to be part of some dodgey shadowy black ops organisation. It was gonna have a kinda RPG element you where ment to be able to wander around your bases on foot and nosey into hangars and stuff. Apparently by doing this you where gonna discover that the organisation and missions had more to them than you where directly informed of.
Once again i wanna say for those who don't know the in's and out's of the games industry. All the games we love to have fun with are created in a commercial environment. Much like the music industry, behind the scenes it's the publishers who call mosta the shots.

But if you think something is screwed "SAY SO" it may get fixed.

Marco pls email me we'll chat guruzeb@blueyonder.co.uk

Thanks all
Zeb

#560431 - 06/01/01 02:48 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by moloch16:
Well, I'm having a blast. I guess I'm one of those masses that don't play flight sims. Never played F-4 or F-18, don't have the time. But I do have time for Typhoon because I don't need a masters degree to play the game.

Typhoon reminds me of the sims of old. F-19, F-15 II, etc.. These sims were simple mainly because the computers couldn't handle a serious sim. But they were damn fun to play, and I missed them, until now.

Regards

Yeah Moloch
i remember those oldies, great fun. Not having a go at ppl who don't wanna read a 500 manual 'cause to be honest i still haven't read more than 50 pages of my own F4 manual. But it's quite possible to produce a sim with scalable complexity, pretty wise on commercial grounds as well, and that way everyone can have what they want. Including the publishers and investors hopefully.

Later
Zeb

#560432 - 06/01/01 07:03 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Hi,
Nice balanced posts...
I think this point pretty much solves the hardcore/lite debate? At least as far as flying the thing's concerned:
Quote:
Originally posted by Guru Zeb:
But it's quite possible to produce a sim with scalable complexity, pretty wise on commercial grounds as well, and that way everyone can have what they want.


We need to be allowed to do this though:
Quote:
Originally posted by Guru Zeb:
But if you think something is screwed "SAY SO" it may get fixed.

However much we might respect the game as is (or not)... Not only does our feedback help drive future development, but in the course of discussion, all of us learn more about the world of game design. 5000+ posts is a lot. Maybe enough to influence the money men a bit if the discussion stays lively?

#560433 - 06/01/01 08:28 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
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Guru Zeb

>>But if you think something is screwed "SAY SO" it may get fixed.<<

I admit, you have a way with positive feedback.

In case you missed this in other posts...our forums here at SimHQ are not opportunities to rant. Our readers come here for constructive info, advice, and help. There are plenty of other web sites where people can take their dissatisfaction. If this is how you want to operate, then I suggest you leave.

Andy

#560434 - 06/01/01 08:49 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
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Guru Zeb..your issues on the flight model have already been answered. I'm surprised you didn't come upon them in your review of the messages of this forum.

The Eurofighter guys have already stated that the flight model is the closest they've experienced to the real thing in a computer game. They liked it.

They also were behind the issue of Situational Awareness, and the use of Pop Up MFDs as opposed to some Down In the Cockpit view.

The sim was never meant to have any sort of detailed avionics. It just wasn't in the cards, and wasn't mentioned in any of the previews that I saw, that we should expect this.

The idea that the masses do not play Flight Sims..is just what I believe Rage wanted to change with Typhoon. it IS a great flight sim..for the masses,and one that Flight Simmers can have fun with as well.

I'm looking forward to the Add-on, and hope they fix a few of the issues that are within the scope of the present game engine which have been mentioned on these boards.





------------------
-Gel214th
CO 214th Annihilators

http://www.214th.com/flanker2


-Gel214th
#560435 - 06/02/01 01:47 AM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Guru Zeb

>>But if you think something is screwed "SAY SO" it may get fixed.<<

I admit, you have a way with positive feedback.

In case you missed this in other posts...our forums here at SimHQ are not opportunities to rant. Our readers come here for constructive info, advice, and help. There are plenty of other web sites where people can take their dissatisfaction. If this is how you want to operate, then I suggest you leave.

Andy



Woah... Andy!!!

Guru's Headline may have been show stopping, but I feel that his post was justified.

I feel that he gave a fair balance of the Pro's and Con's in relation to Typhoon, and he even acknowledged that it wasn't Steve H's/DiD/Rage's fault entireley.

With regards to his 'ranting' ; We have to step back and think of the service this site gives to people who are undecided as to whether or not to purchase Typhoon... regardless of any associated personal commercial gain that may come from sales.

My persoanl view is that Typhoon is an excellent 'entry level sim' (in regards to similar titles like USAF). However, having had a fair bit of discussion with Steve Hunt on this forum, I feel that Typhoon will be adjusted to suit the more demanding simmer in time as well (granted it aint gonna suit everyone's taste 100%). However, I'm sure it will get better.

I feel Guru's post was on the whole constructive (I even saw ex-DiD staff corresponding with him, and not being negative about the points he raised).

To say "If this is how you want to operate, then I suggest you leave", I feel is a tadge to strong. Perhaps you've had a lot to drink (like myself tonight), and will wake up tomorrow saying "Oh no, I didn't really say that, did I?".

Can't we all live in a democracy and respect others opinions... as long as they aint abusive?

Ok I've said enough... I'm gonna go and find a Tree to hug



------------------
\:\)

Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#560436 - 06/02/01 02:00 AM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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lol, did I say ex_DiD staff back there? Whoops sorry

------------------
\:\)

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http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#560437 - 06/02/01 03:45 AM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
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Hengist

>>regardless of any associated personal commercial gain that may come from sales.<<

Maybe I misunderstand you. I hope so...but just in case I haven't, let's get something straight. Leon and I are being compensated up front for the Strategy Guide. Our fee has nothing to do with sales. Are you clear on that now?

>>Can't we all...respect others opinions... as long as they aint abusive?<<

Of course. I guess you don't find expressions such as "EFT cheerleaders...vectoring in with the usual put downs...just engratiating themselves with Steve and Rage...the avionic representaion is a joke...dippy nose flutter...dubious or just plane bone headed...you really really have dropped the ball on this one." to be 'abusive'.

If not, I do.

This thread has contributed nothing to what has been already said many times over. Unfortunately, some people came to this game with false expectations. The basic concept was discussed here months ago. If someone was expecting EF2000 ver 3.0 or Falcon5, then they were not paying attention.

One more thing. Your comment about drinking was out of line. One more wise ass remark like that and you are history on these boards.

Andy

#560438 - 06/02/01 12:30 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
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Quote:
Originally posted by *Hengist*:
Perhaps you've had a lot to drink (like myself tonight), and will wake up tomorrow saying "Oh no, I didn't really say that, did I?".


Hengist...

It is only too obvious that you post many of your messages after having had "a lot to drink" That you are happy for everyone here to know that you are a piss-head is fine, but that's no reason to accuse others!

I came here to read and learn about Typhoon not to read about why it wasn't the game some folk expected it to be. Then suffer while those whines were echoed ad nauseam!!

The original poster claimed to have read these boards before posting... Bullshit! The nature of the game was made clear long before it was released, there was no reason for anyone to have expected anything other than what they got.

Despite that I see exactly the same whine made by different posters, yourself included, all of them seem to have been hoping for a different game.

Wake up guys, Typhoon is what it is, nobody claimed it would be any different, and some folk like it that way.

I come here because I want to have my Typhoon experience enhanced by folk who are better at the game than I am. I don't care to see your simi drunken juvenile rants!

Tig


Tiger
#560439 - 06/02/01 12:42 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Guru Zeb:
Hi ppl
Yeah am serious. I feel sick, after reading some of the posts on this forum. To once again gauge the current range of opinions,problems, and short comings of EFT.
I have a tight feeling across my abs and that kinda indegestive, overactive stomach acid sensation you get after eating a whole jar of gherkins!!!


That's sad... Take some advice, turn your computer off and go get a life!

I'm having a blast with Typhoon! If you are feeling ill just reading about it you have some serious issues buddy!

Andy,

I'm with you, please shut these whiners down before we all feel sick!

#560440 - 06/02/01 01:33 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Andy,
This environment seems to be getting a little dangerous... How big of a leap is it from chucking folks off the board for breaching the 'dogma' to, say, sending 'round the thought police?...

Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Of course. I guess you don't find expressions such as... ...to be 'abusive'. If not, I do.


OK, I can understand a bit of a 'cultural collision' in the humour department... To my UK sensibilities "EFT cheerleaders...vectoring in with the usual put downs" is a pretty well crafted way of adding some wit to a serious point... But, I used to live in the US, no-one ever got their big sticks out if I came out with things like that.

Even if someone does inadvertently offend any sensibilities, is threatening them the best way of dealing with it.

Now, this is a question not an opinion. I've never subscribed to any BBS before, so does the role of administrator
mean you effectively 'own' the board, or is it more of a moderating role?
The reason I ask is because I thought the various comments about the commercial side of the game were targeted at the relationship between development and marketing of games... So I don't think anyone was attacking Leon or yourself for writing the Strategy Guide. I guess I'm saying 'have I made a mistake and subscribed to a board about Strategy Guides?'

Ironically, I did post a couple of purely gameplay questions the other night, and haven't had a single response. Don't mind, but I think you may have to accept that people want to discuss other aspects of the game.

When you say "The basic concept was discussed here months ago" in response to comments that don't conform to the dogma of your realm, you are being optimistic about the amount of 'research' people put into games purchases. If this game is, as stated, partly aimed at opening up the Sim market, then you have to expect that a lot of people will buy the thing off the shelf, play for a bit and then stumble on this board via the official site... I doubt most of them will have read the 5000+ existing posts, but they will want to contribute to on-going discussions of the moment. We're playing a game here, not studying for our Doctorates.
A lot of these discussions are not soley about the 'lite' or otherwise nature of the game anyway. Also note that the very positive gamespot review, whilst it does present and justify a position on the 'lite' aspects of the game, does not touch at all on issues such as the weapon effectiveness or the way the campaign is slaved to the storyline. These are issues for many of us, and we seem to want to discuss them.
I do notice that where people's issues are being addressed, the discussions quickly become more developmental than critical. Unfortunately, for those of us who cannot programme, there has been very little response other than to say that things will be a bit different after a patch/add-on.

One final thing... This threat:
Quote:
One more wise ass remark like that and you are history on these boards.

Ich Swilt! (Old English, ~ 'you've killed me'... I think?)
C'mon, he wasn't trying to imply that you were drinking, he was trying to find a light hearted way of saying 'back down a bit before you regret something'... Er, Friday night, couple of pints, things you wish you hadn't said... couple of pints in Hengist and it all hangs together without too much imagination.

Repressing free speech never works too well... Spanish Inquisition/Belsen/Vietnam and Cambodia/Bosnia... ?DID. I've worked with refugees, seen the cigarrette burns and heard the stories. Don't go there mate.




[This message has been edited by Cnebba (edited 06-02-2001).]

#560441 - 06/02/01 01:41 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Just to keep things fair, Andy has posted an informative reply to the questions mentioned above... Cheers.
And sorry for cocking up the Bold/Unbold commands... C'est la vie... Ah, all fixed now, knew there was a way you could edit yourself.

[This message has been edited by Cnebba (edited 06-02-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Cnebba (edited 06-02-2001).]

#560442 - 06/02/01 02:50 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cnebba:
OK, I can understand a bit of a 'cultural collision' in the humour department... To my UK sensibilities "EFT cheerleaders...vectoring in with the usual put downs" is a pretty well crafted way of adding some wit to a serious point...


To my UK sensibilities it looked a lot more like you were just trying to sound clever. It wasn't funny, it wasn't original, it wasn't even very witty. You just sound like a spoiled kid who has been given the wrong toy for Christmas.


Quote:
But, I used to live in the US, no-one ever got their big sticks out if I came out with things like that.


You mean you talk like that in real life? I bet you sound like a right royal twat! Those yanks were obviously humouring you and thinking what an asshole you were.

Quote:
Ironically, I did post a couple of purely gameplay questions the other night, and haven't had a single response.


It looks like you've received a response to all eight of your mostly smartass posts. You appear to be nothing more than a blatant troll.

Quote:
Repressing free speech never works too well... Spanish Inquisition/Belsen/Vietnam and Cambodia/Bosnia... ?DID. I've worked with refugees, seen the cigarrette burns and heard the stories. Don't go there mate.


There goes your credibility!

You have already whined so often that you have made yourself feel sick. It seems you wont stop until you get everyone blowing chunks with you. Freedom of speech is a fine thing, but some people abuse the privilege!


Tig


Tiger
#560443 - 06/02/01 03:01 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
There goes your credibility!


I think you're confusing who you're replying to.

Cheers,
Manteau

#560444 - 06/02/01 03:03 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Tiger , you have zero credibility ya self becoz your post above brings nothing to the table , negative or positive , about the game / sim TYPHOON , which is what we are all here supposedly discussing !

Your post above is nothing more than a call to a FLAME WAR !


#560445 - 06/02/01 03:08 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
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Cnebba

Well written post. And one deserving of serious answers.

>>This environment seems to be getting a little dangerous... How big of a leap is it from chucking folks off the board for breaching the 'dogma' to, say, sending 'round the thought police?...<<

I would hope to avoid that. But this was not a case of anyone's 'dogma' being breached. There were two specific assertions in that post that I found personally insulting. These had nothing to do with Typhoon.

One assertion implied that I might be saying something only to make money. The other implied a certain lack of personal responsibility and self-control. These were out of line...and that's where I draw the line.

SimHQ forum administrators are moderators more than 'owners'. But, every now and then, we step in to keep things going the way we want them to go. We don't put up with flamers, rants, or undue attacks on individuals or other web sites. When this happens, we try to give people fair warning that this will not be tolerated here. I see that as more of an 'advisory' than 'threat'.

>>I think you may have to accept that people want to discuss other aspects of the game.<<

Absolutely...no question about it. That's why this forum is here...to 'discuss' things.

But sometimes this goes beyond my definition of 'discuss'. Here's how I see it. Posts should be made to contribute something positive. They should not be made just to vent. SimHQ has repeatedly said that we do not want that sort of thing on our forums.

Assuming that most of the posters are adults, it should be possible to express dissatisfaction in a manner that invites a positive response. Imagine how Rage people must feel when reading some of this. Do you think they are going to respect extreme language or ignore it? Does the poster think that Rage is going to put in extra work based upon that type of input? I think not.

We are not 'repressing free speech'. When necessary, SimHQ will repress inappropriate, ineffective, abusive, or insulting speech.

My objective is for people like you to come here and post your comments and questions for the purpose of helping others or yourself. Aside from some very obvious exceptions, I hope this forum is doing that.

Andy

#560446 - 06/02/01 03:14 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
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Tiger

That was a little too adversarial. I know you can find a way to disagree without calling people names.

Andy

#560447 - 06/02/01 03:42 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andy

We are not 'repressing free speech'. When necessary, SimHQ will repress inappropriate, ineffective, abusive, or insulting speech.

Please forgive this junior member's foray into this discussion but, I agree wholeheartedly that about the inappropriateness of abusive and insulting 'speech'. I do believe though that the effectiveness of a person's opinion should not be judged so harshly. In my opinion a sense of humour can be identified and can often be tolerated for what it is, an attempt at lighthearted banter. I ask this only because since discovering this board I have spent considerable time here, enjoying educational, communal 'socialising' with people who have a similar interest to mine. I hope I do not have to walk on 'eggshells' each time I post.

#560448 - 06/02/01 03:48 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Andy,
Thanks for the reply... I agree completely that it is much better to frame our expressions of dissatisfaction in a way that invites positive response. So far, I think things have settled into adult debate fairly quickly.

Purely in the interests of learning the 'rules' of an online culture:

1) What is a 'flame war'?
2) What do you mean by 'Rant'... When I use the word, colloqually, I tend to mean an expression of discontent that isn't intended to be structured as a serious argument... But a rant under that definition might very well be full of humour and worth reading for what it is... It certainly shouldn't make personal attacks. I'm unclear if this is the same definition used on BBS's?


Tiger:
You did reply to the wrong person, but, when you state:
Quote:
There goes your credibility!

I would be interested in knowing what you meant. Are you disagreeing with whatever you think my politics are? or are you implying that I haven't seen first hand the more extreme results of our species occaisional repression of free speech?
If it's the former, I don't object, but it would nice to have a properly framed argument to respond to.
If it's the latter, I'm sorry, but I lost childhood friends in the Biafran war, and had to leave the country ... I've done a fair bit of work in this general area since then. Could prove it with photo's/films, but this board isn't really about that. Whatever, but be a little more careful OK? There's a lot more goes off in this world than you have necessarily seen for yourself.

#560449 - 06/02/01 04:30 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
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Quote:
Originally posted by *Hengist*:
We have to step back and think of the service this site gives to people who are undecided as to whether or not to purchase Typhoon... regardless of any associated personal commercial gain that may come from sales.


I make a big effort to give people the benefit of the doubt. You mentioned that you have been drinking, so I hope the implication in your words that anything Andy and I have ever said here has in anyway been guided by financial considerations was unintended! If not, Im sure you can see how we would both be offended.

We are both honourable men, motivated altruistically, with the desire to help others enjoy their gaming as much as we do. We both feel that objective is best achieved by being positive, forward thinking and constructive. We have both worked hard to ensure that the nature of the game was as transparent to potential customers as we could.

Despite the fact that nothing has ever been said to lead anyone to believe that Typhoon would be any different, it seems some folk have managed to foster false expectations, and appear to be extremely vocal and repetitive about their misplaced disappointment.

I firmly believe that most of the posts we are seeing here are born more from the combination of frustration and love of flight sims rather than any genuine hostility, but please people A continuous stream of lament for what might have been is certainly not productive and I know that it has already resulted in some detriment to the Typhoon community.

Typhoon is what it is, the horse is dead already, time to put the whip away!

Lets stop this here!

Now I going to do that S-37 intercept mission again Im having a lot of fun with Typhoon and I wont let these unkind posts stop me

Badboy

#560450 - 06/02/01 04:59 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Badboy i agree with your post almost 100%
the way to end all debate and discussion on Typhoon would be real easy !

If RAGE , i will leave Steve out of this , so again -

if RAGE as a company want TYPHOON to be what it is now , a closed product , with some bugs , then they should publically say so / make a statement to this effect !

Now before everyone jumps down my throat and says it is , its on the shelves etc you paid for it please note this -

i purchased Typhoon based on alot of comments on this board ,and becoz of TAW and the PEDIGREE of the DID & RAGE stable of games !!!!!!!

- part of my disappointment is my own human nature and aspirations , so i am not out to lay blame , or legally sue anyone for maybe my misplaced optimism !!

I have stated my gripes and i have SUGGESTED
possible fixes - see other threads !

I am keeping Typhoon on my HD and the shop copy on my shelf ,in the hope that it gets enhanced ,

BUT frankly if it does not get enhanced i am taking it back for a refund , no threat , just my choice as a customer / gamer and simmer , and NO ,the issue of realism or hardcoreism does not reflect in my game playing psyche .

So in conclusion the way to quell all criticism and debate - is for there to be a definitive and clear cut statement from RAGE - as to TYPHOONS future - bug fixes , game play patches , mission builder , or support community modding
OR NONE OF THE ABOVE ????????

its their call !

I believe these decisions are above Steves head in the echelons of RAGE ,
i feel Steve's commitment to TYPHOON modding etc ,are beyond question , from his posts already on record on this forum !


#560451 - 06/02/01 05:05 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cnebba:
I would be interested in knowing what you meant. Are you disagreeing with whatever you think my politics are? or are you implying that I haven't seen first hand the more extreme results of our species occaisional repression of free speech?


Simple... Anyone who can relate anything in this thread to the activities in "Spanish Inquisition/Belsen/Vietnam and Cambodia/Bosnia" has lost the plot.

I don't give two hoots for your politics. I'm here because I want to talk Typhoon. You would do better to take your bleeding heart somewhere where it's on topic. If I want to discuss that stuff I'll do the same. Meanwhile, in this forum, it is nothing more than blatant flame bait. But I have a feeling that's exactly what you wanted.


Tig


Tiger
#560452 - 06/02/01 05:09 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Tiger

That was a little too adversarial. I know you can find a way to disagree without calling people names.

Andy


Sorry Andy!!

I'm having a great time with Typhoon. It has already given me countless hours of fun and the constant whining really pisses me off sometimes. I'll try to keep it clean.

Tig



[This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 06-02-2001).]


Tiger
#560453 - 06/02/01 05:15 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Is EFT going to come out on the ps2?? It sounds perfect for that platform.



[This message has been edited by drew (edited 06-02-2001).]

#560454 - 06/02/01 05:19 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Come on Andy lighten up

Im new to this board, but use aviation boards like pprune & aviators alot, and I have never before seen a moderator get worked up over so little.

Especially Hengist comment about beeing drunk, it was a JOKE
Why get so worked up about it, that you theaten to throw him out , I think thats out of line for a moderator.

About Guru Zeb, he is very provocative initially, but still he tries tbe objective as far as I understand him.

Is it normal to theaten ppl here the first time they get a little too excited ?

Have a nice week-end you guys lets get us some SU-37s and maybe even a goose

#560455 - 06/02/01 05:20 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
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Tiger Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by drew:
Is EFT going to come out on the ps2?? It sound perfect for that platform.



Ha, another obvious troll!

Ya need different bait buddy, that's been done to death, you won't get a bite on it.


Tig


Tiger
#560456 - 06/02/01 05:30 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Heh. I guess I'll jump back under the bridge.

Seriously though. I have a ps2 that I bought for programs made "for the masses"



[This message has been edited by drew (edited 06-02-2001).]

#560457 - 06/02/01 05:34 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by 3dfxboy:
So in conclusion the way to quell all criticism and debate - is for there to be a definitive and clear cut statement from RAGE - as to TYPHOONS future - bug fixes , game play patches , mission builder , or support community modding
OR NONE OF THE ABOVE ????????

its their call !

I believe these decisions are above Steves head in the echelons of RAGE ,
i feel Steve's commitment to TYPHOON modding etc ,are beyond question , from his posts already on record on this forum !


Badboy,
I think you have to concede that these are pretty fair and recurrent points.

From what I have read on other threads, it looks as if Steve will open the campaign at the patch level: I, for one, had no idea this was possible before these discussions started. From what I have seen, people started commenting (often initially negatively, but rarely remaining so), and Steve has responded by saying that we will get at least some of what we want... And if it's a patch we won't have to be paying out another 30 for it.

I wouldn't have called that flogging a dead horse.

Some of the threads do start in a fairly repetetive way... Someone new hits on an old 'problem' and puts their comments up... But, when the issues are already addressed, following posts tend to refer people to the right threads, and the discussion moves along. I now have a pretty clear idea of what I want from the next stage of Typhoons development, and I'm interested in hearing the views of others. If the campaign can get opend up with a patch, think of what might get into the add-on? Better if Rage/DiD had a developed set of ideas to work from... And that is what we are beginning to see here.

I think I suggested before (and I'm definately not alone), if the developers start a 'where to go from here' thread, a lot of us would have positive thoughts to add. If it's not going anywhere, fair enough, but we'll shut up quicker if we have a definitive statement to that effect.

#560458 - 06/02/01 05:35 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Tiger , you obviously find it hard to understand the criticisms of the game , like wise i find it incredibly hard to understand how you can blanketly like it so much !

but if you post on forums you have to respect alternative points of views !

put it this way , no one plays a game , or reads a book or watches a movie in isolation -

last week i saw the film mummy returns - i enjoyed it alot , but basically it was a more kick arse , special effects version / rip off of an indiana jones film !

so the people who post their criticiams on here , i can relate to becoz they make their points clearly , and use tangible examples from previous sims , eg TAW etc ,when making their comparisons and arguments etc

No one can really be expected to play TYPHOON in a blinkered environment and not make any criticism of it , i think everything i have read on this forum is generally pretty fair and spot on , and people illustrate their examples well !

Typhoon does not and will not exist in a
vacuum of sims , it shares space with FLANKER 2.5 , FALCON 4 , soon LOMAC & FALCON 5 and many others !

Sims are not dying , they are doing very nicely thankyou , most sims are being modded in some way , usually for the better !

Typhoon , has confused itself in this melee , i would suggest that it should have been a TAW clone , becoz TAW can be both arcade or hard core , the player decides !!

Typhoon is feature lacking , in lots of ways , the virtual world i feel particularly !

Typhoon can still be great , it can still be feature rich , and please both newbie simmers and more experienced players alike, but frankly it needs a lot of work and a sense of direction !

Tiger , if you are really like it as it is , then good for you , no one is trying to convert you , i am pleased you are pleased with its gaming experience ,

please just try to see the alternative point of view , we simmers are passionate and vocal as BADBOY mentions , and we shout out loud and are not afraid to tell it how it is , even if that does upset some people , its nothing personal to anyone , it is what keeps this genre alive and vibrant

all the best to you Tiger , and have fun with Typhoon

#560459 - 06/02/01 05:46 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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What's a 'Troll' anyone?

Sorry Tiger, I don't know what flaming is, so I have no idea if there is a point in there or not? I could get sick of constant personal attacks though.

#560460 - 06/02/01 05:52 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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trolling is like posting to get a response

eg " typhoon suxs - jump on noard with your criticism etc "- that title and me would be considered as a troller & trolling

- above was an example - NOT my view !

A flame war is basically a free for all , where people call each other names , and it gets real nasty !

basically don't troll or flame , best to stay nice to each other and respect each others diverse opinions in a polite arena

hope this helps

#560461 - 06/02/01 06:15 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by 3dfxboy:
hope this helps


It does, many thanks.

So if understand correctly, it's OK to make your points, but we shouldn't be looking for fights. Seems sound... One reason I held off posting on BBS's for so long was concern about that sort of thing.

#560462 - 06/02/01 06:17 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Quote:


please just try to see the alternative point of view , we simmers are passionate and vocal as BADBOY mentions , and we shout out loud and are not afraid to tell it how it is , even if that does upset some people , its nothing personal to anyone , it is what keeps this genre alive and vibrant

all the best to you Tiger , and have fun with Typhoon [/B]


Im with you on this one, well said.

The bottom line is that this is a commercial environment. It is very rewarding to be able to read what some of the actual developers have to say about constuctive criticism. It may be more rewarding to all concerned to actively encourage lively debate, social interaction and drunken ramblings, if it encourages a community of paying cusotmers.
In my humble drunken opinion of course....hic.

#560463 - 06/02/01 06:34 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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This is fact, nothing more or less. I have spent over 200 on flight sims as a direct result of encouragement from Hengist. I have never met hime (or her!). If you included hardware and peripherals to make it all work the amount would be frighteningly more. Please look at Hengists contribution to Mig Ally, which he championed. It is people like H that encourage people like me to part with my hard earned, so please consider this when you have a go at someone who has injected humour whilst admiting to being disinhibited. Hengist, and people like him are for me, good for this genre.

#560464 - 06/02/01 07:37 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Hi guys
Hmmmm got a few comments to make.
First some of the comments in my original post are ment to be yes, pointed but also humourous particulary the "EFT cheerleaders"
comment.
After i had post my initial rant i posted 2 more msgs to add a little extra balance to my comments, some ppl need to read them carefully.
Anyone carefully reading my 3 post will notice that at NO TIME did i make petty personal attacks on ANYONE as an individual.
( am a friendly Yorkshire lad, thats not my mode. American translation: Yorkshire = Hick )
I do wish however that everyone who gets involved in these exchanges would do the same.
I just spent friday evening in the pub then stayed at my Girls flat ( Which i hope goes some way to setting PRUNES mind to rest on the issue of me having a life, yes Prune and a very varied and rewarding one )
arriving home sat evening, am horrified at the way a lot of the later posts in this thread have descended into petty personal attacks or squabbles.
PLEASE CHILL GUYS, KEEP COMMENTS, VITRIOL OR PRAISE FOCUSED ON THE ISSES.

Later
Zeb

#560465 - 06/02/01 08:16 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Typhoon is how it is and we knew before.

If you spoil-ban-exclude people like Hengist,
a person of most honourable heart, you are
gonna spoil your whole site.

Since I play Flightsims on the net I have not met many people like Hengist.
He might have his own words on some ideas but that is his way and how he is but I never saw him insulting someone.

How many people actually spend so much time and effort to support sims ?

I think that Andy should re-think his point here if he doesnt want to exclude not only Hengist but all of similar kind since we do not know how to express ourselves so that others may also have a laugh and not only straight pilot talk, avoiding to get banned.


anyway, by looking at the names of the replies I guess its too late already and you have lost a valuable source.


That is very very sad since no one was harmed, just your ego Andy.

my 2 cents

Tb 214th

#560466 - 06/02/01 08:26 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
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Andy Bush Offline
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Posts: 5,955
St Charles, MO
Cnebba

I think your questions about the meaning of 'troll' and 'flame war' have already been answered.

I suppose the meaning of 'rant' is open to interpretation. With regard to Typhoon and this board, I see critical posts as coming in three forms: suggested changes, opinions, and rants. Discounting the first, I'm left with opinion and rant.

For me, a critical opinion is an unemotional, factual, dissection of the game. A rant, on the other hand, is an emotional outcry against some perceived wrong. The rant may be factual or not, wholly or in part.

The posting of an opinion seems to beg a reasoned response. The ranter could care less about getting a response since the objective is to spew invective, not engage in debate.

That should do it.

Andy

#560467 - 06/02/01 08:41 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cnebba:
Badboy,
I think you have to concede that these are pretty fair and recurrent points.


Hi Cnebba

Those points are indeed being made fairly frequently, and sadly repetitively, I concede that. However, I dont agree that they are pretty fair, allow me to explain. I dont think anyone would argue about the benefit to be gained from post release enhancement of simulation software. The developer has the longevity of their simulation increased, along with additional sales, and the game player has an enhanced gaming experience. However, the most successful examples Ive seen have all been driven by the simulation community. In some cases they have been unsupported labours of love created by devoted game players, the Aces series and original Red Baron spring to mind. In other cases they have been commercial ventures, like Strategic Falcon for Falcon3, or even SimTechs add-on disc for F22, and later the Falcon4 enhancements. I dont believe anyone ever expected such things to be included as part of the original price. Support and patches are one thing, but I dont think it is fair to expect any more than that. My opinion may be unpopular, but I dont think anyone should purchase a flight sim with the notion that they are buying into a development chain, its almost certain to lead to disappointment. Fortunately that isnt an issue at the moment because Im delighted at the level of support already shown by Rage, their speedy patches and level of involvement in this forum is already above and beyond the call of duty! Those guys arent just game developers out for a quick return, they love flight sims every bit as much as we do I know this for a fact! Let's cut some slack here guys?

Leon "Badboy" Smith


[This message has been edited by Badboy (edited 06-02-2001).]

#560468 - 06/02/01 08:58 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Hi Andy/Badboy,
Thanks for the replies. I won't add further repetition to this thread then... See what comes up next?

#560469 - 06/03/01 01:17 AM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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I disagree with some of what has been posted. Even with all the talk before the release of EFT, you don't know completely what your getting till you get it. And some of what is written in the manual, and printed on the box is a little suspect. We all knew a little going into the purchase, but some of the small things like no closure speed is something that was expected by me anyway.

[This message has been edited by Coffee1 (edited 06-02-2001).]

#560470 - 06/03/01 01:32 AM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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speaking personally , apart from my feedback which i feel is legitimate , i think that generally today , we do as a community expect more from our sims , i will elaborate

- we have better cpus , more ram and faster 3d gfx cards , so i expect a more diverse and lively virtual world and better AI and terrain on any new sim !

- certain sims are more mod friendly , and also we have come to expect rightly or wrongly , more !

be that free www mods or developer support , be that purely helpful info to open up a sim , or
take microsofts support for its fs2000 sim for example , all the free planes and scenery you can download !

sims of note are fs2000 , falcon4 , janes f18 , and sims to come like IL2 etc

also it is frankly bizarre beyond belief to ship a sim without a mission builder in todays age , even janes atf series had these !

i don't know if any of you guys follow / read the falcon4 terrain group via email ?

but once you read these , and see the modding stuff that is being done , and buy into this culture , its hard to go back , purely on a mental level !

I suffer from this , maybe its mental delusion and too much dowmloading of free planes and missions and stuff for a plethora of sims , as well as mission building tinkering with TAW !!

but once the genie is out of the bottle , its hard to go back mentally , and accept or comprehend a sim that is feature capped or lacking !

thats my take and outlook on sims generally , and hence why i am vocal into please can we have some fixes and a mission builder !

becoz i feel that it is not unreasonable to request such items , it is a necessity to keep Typhoon alive for the future , and also a de facto standard for sims to have these , which has ben set by developers of nearly every sim over preceding years !

i still feel that like most pc games that are released of all genres , that we here in the uk , are also the unofficial beta testers for so called final gold master products , and hence why alot of games get released to the USA months later , with fixes and patches applied ,

i notice this will happen to Flashpoint , and Typhoon is not out in the USA !

Developers know that the usa games buying public are harsh and not forgiving , if you screw up a product release to the numerically larger USA market and all those big dollars you have really blown it !

Im not making accusations , and im not looking for an answer or a debate , lets just say i am X files fan , and i trust no one , and you would not catch me driving past the grassy knowle in dallas in my cabriolet sports car , catch my drift !

Enough said !

#560471 - 06/03/01 09:45 AM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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To Andy and anyone else who I've offended in this thread.

I sincerely apologise.

The things mentioned in my post were supposed to be a joke.

I just wanted everyone to get along. To be fair to others, reading it back, I can now see how people could have taken it as a personal 'dig' at them. This wasn't my intention. I was attempting to calm the situation down, but it seems to have gone the opposite way (Homer style)... DOH!

I wont say much more, as I'm a bit unsure as to what qualifies as an acceptable boundary and I don't want to be banned from these forums. So I'll say once again, I apologise. I just want everyone to get along.

Rememeber guys I'm a sim fanatic, just like the rest of you. Like any 'family' we've had a falling out. Let's put it behind us and continue in the spirit of a flight sim community; i.e. helping each other, discussing various aspects of sims, and mutually enjoying our hobby.

------------------
\:\)

Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#560472 - 06/03/01 12:09 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by *Hengist*:
To Andy and anyone else who I've offended in this thread.

I sincerely apologise.

The things mentioned in my post were supposed to be a joke.

I just wanted everyone to get along. To be fair to others, reading it back, I can now see how people could have taken it as a personal 'dig' at them. This wasn't my intention. I was attempting to calm the situation down, but it seems to have gone the opposite way (Homer style)... DOH!

I wont say much more, as I'm a bit unsure as to what qualifies as an acceptable boundary and I don't want to be banned from these forums. So I'll say once again, I apologise. I just want everyone to get along.

Rememeber guys I'm a sim fanatic, just like the rest of you. Like any 'family' we've had a falling out. Let's put it behind us and continue in the spirit of a flight sim community; i.e. helping each other, discussing various aspects of sims, and mutually enjoying our hobby.



rgr H, well said.

#560473 - 06/03/01 01:13 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
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Hengist

Thanks very much for your post.

I'll put my two cents in and apologize for my thin skin!

This game needs your's and other's input to make it as good as possible. Let's put aside the past and work for Typhoon's future.

Andy

#560474 - 06/04/01 01:09 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  

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Andy,

you make me happy

*we are in one boat*

Tb214th

#560475 - 06/04/01 02:34 PM Re: RANT WARNING*** I FEEL SICK !!!!!!  
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As long as the boat isn't called Titanic I shall stay aboard Unless someone buys me a real Typhoon...then I will jump ship....but the probability of that is very slim.....Oiii Bill Gates!?

------------------
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