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#560172 - 05/29/01 03:05 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Manteau:
Yeah, why not? - I need a break from looking at f22.dat

What are they, text files, binaries?

Also, do you mind clarifying what "drive the campaign" means?

I'm a bit confused - are they the files that say, "right, russians have 60% of island, so lets send a few nukes at ICEFOR" or are they more lower level, e.g. Harriers, Tornados, EFAs do SEAD and CAS missions, etc, etc.

Cheers,
Manteau



They'll be text files (put away that hex editor!) and they'll be quite low level. e.g. Planes on each side - planes and their role types, start conditions, end conditions, strategy templates etc...

You'll see when I send 'em -

Cheers,

Steve

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#560173 - 05/29/01 03:07 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Great stuff, all that counting in 16's makes me dizzy

P.S. Steve take it as read that we've signed an NDA agreement. We'll actually sign one if we have to... Yup I've been there before with a few other sims, so you can trust us

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http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley


[This message has been edited by *Hengist* (edited 05-29-2001).]

#560174 - 05/29/01 03:12 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Oooh Oooh!!!

Could you very possibly add:

manteau@operamail.com

to the email list? (or make it downloadable) Many thanks

Cheers,
Manteau

#560175 - 05/29/01 03:17 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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M, I can forward it to you once I get them. I'm just thinking about saving Steve some time while emailing. Then again I don't know how big or small these file(s) are going to be, they could be tiny

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#560176 - 05/29/01 03:22 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Quote:
Originally posted by *Hengist*:
M, I can forward it to you once I get them. I'm just thinking about saving Steve some time while emailing. Then again I don't know how big or small these file(s) are going to be, they could be tiny


Yeah, fair point

Cheers,
Manteau

#560177 - 05/29/01 04:02 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  
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Of course, once you two guys start this, you have in effect joined 'the team', so that means no more pissy posts!

Very big

Andy

#560178 - 05/29/01 04:08 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Of course, once you two guys start this, you have in effect joined 'the team', so that means no more pissy posts!

Very big

Andy


LOL!

"the team"?

You mean people will be able to post critical posts about what we do?

Yeah

Cheers,
Manteau

#560179 - 05/29/01 04:15 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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lol Andy,

Consider pissy posts stopped

Hehee, this reminds me of many years ago when I was studying Systems Analysis and in particular the business studies elements..

What do you do with a troublesome employee? Promote them to foreman, and make them a stakeholder

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Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley



[This message has been edited by *Hengist* (edited 05-29-2001).]

#560180 - 05/29/01 04:17 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  
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Manteau

>>You mean people will be able to post critical posts about what we do?<<

Exactly!

Stand by to repel boarders!

Andy

#560181 - 05/29/01 04:21 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Manteau

>>You mean people will be able to post critical posts about what we do?<<

Exactly!

Stand by to repel boarders!

Andy



Manning the water cannon already Sir!

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Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
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#560182 - 05/29/01 05:23 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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whoooeeee

i feel a basic editor / mission editor coming on ??

either that or i got bad indigestion !!

p.s don't forget about TAW you two , or men with baseball bats will be in transit

Go TAW-MOD team go !!
lol

#560183 - 05/29/01 06:02 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hunt:

They'll be text files (put away that hex editor!) and they'll be quite low level. e.g. Planes on each side - planes and their role types, start conditions, end conditions, strategy templates etc...

You'll see when I send 'em -

Cheers,

Steve


mwuahhhhhhhhhh !!!!!

can I still take pot shots ? (j/k)

pweeeeeeeeeeaaaaase ?

no but really... I love DiD.. and I also really like *many* of the improvements that were made over previous games... my biggest problem was that I thought it should be either fully one way or fully the other.. the initial release IMHO tried to please both genres of gamers and I believe that the 'warts' of the gamers side (the finale for example) cheesed off the simmers. I wouldnt have posted such strong posts if I didnt feel that this game never had potential in the first place. I understand that the first thing Steve probaly wants to do with his Black & Decker is drill holes in my ickle body, but in all honesty if he doesnt then there are some hellfires comming my way anyway !. I understand that everything has a budget and I'm sure that the 'x amount of words' that Steve is talking about is probaly that, hence why I still believe DiD did the right thing by releasing TAW as a new game.

Its funny, Steve, you probaly remember me saying at the beginning of this that I used to wish EF2k had cut-scenes... I also used to wish, believe it or not that EF2k had a definete ending so I could feel I had truely completed it.

I Really want to help Typhoon, not slander it because I've got nothing better to do. Anyone who has seen my other posts will understand that I very rarely beat around the bush with my thoughts and feelings. I have little coding experience through my own choice but I've tweaked Linux,2k and win9x/me by editing ini files, scripts etc all my computer born life and I feel that all my experience and my trust that I still have in DiD (which is why I wont take Typhoon back) would help.

I just thought of something... *blush* possibly quite sad but hell... I think I was about 17 when DiD released EF2000 and I remember phoning them and asking what qualifications would be required to possibly work on the team... I was told that enthusiasm was more important than any degree... so, I certainly have the enthusiasm part *G*

I have realistic thoughts of what can be made from typhoon and realistic views of what D.i.D can do after the game has reached the shelves.



Could I help here Steve? I really think I could put a lot into this.


Take care,
Ian


#560184 - 05/29/01 08:16 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  
Joined: May 2001
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Ok, I've done a lot of stuff with the .MDL files for TAW and ADF so I'd very, very much like a copy of this CDL file (I assume it's a CDL from looking through the .dat). And again, I would be most happy to sign any non-disclosure stuff, though to be honest it wouldn't be necessary as everyone knows what happens in the campaign anyway. The file won't have integration details.
hitman@svbs.fsnet.co.uk
Ok, and while I'm here I'd like to volunteer to do missions stuff for both the TAW MOD group and any Typhoon MOD group that may be generating itself.

------------------
---SVBS squad is playing Typhoon now at http://www.svbs.co.uk !---


---SVBS squad is playing Lock On, ADF/TAW and Typhoon now at http://www.svbs.co.uk !---
#560185 - 05/29/01 08:24 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
So let's provide Rage with some well-thought out suggestions and alternatives instead of complaints.


Well, I said it was a rant, and the ending seems to have damaged the game experience for a lot of us. My first posting talked about game concepts, and was pretty explicit about enjoying many aspects of the game. I am not a programmer, so I can only talk in terms of gaming concepts and mechanisms I do know a bit about that, and a game hinges on its structure as much as its code.
Im not on a rant now I even replayed the finish a couple of times, and you can do it with guns, at least on easy settings. Ill e-mail you how I managed if you still want that?
I also started the game again I do like a lot of it, in fact I think it has some very original and innovative gameplay, especially at the interface between the plane you are flying, and the rest of the game world: As a primarily strategic and conceptual gamer I really appreciate it if I can think maybe if can get back to friendly airspace Ill get help?, and then watch the game do just that. It does this kind of thing in so many ways that the rest really needs to succeed. Honestly.
Another part of my first posting was about the opacity of the player role within the game I accept that I am desperately trying to get the strategic engine to react, and that isnt going to matter to a lot of people, but it is difficult to accept a game that makes so much of its dynamic engine, and yet fails to re-take three empty sectors for the whole campaign. I am trying this time to go with the flow a bit, but knowing how the game ends, I dont see that the campaign will do a great deal differently. Not making game play parameters explicit, and not engaging in a decent Socratic dialogue about player perceptions can lead to resentment.

Anyway, Im going to try to add my non-programming, non-hardcore, input to some of the comments that have followed my rant, so I hope I dont offend too many people. Just to re-iterate: This game is often very good, and I think if some of the best content is built upon, there is a groundbreaking classic waiting to happen. Whether at the patch, add-on or next in the series stage, Im really not competent to judge, but I try to keep my thinking within the framework of the game structure as is.


Some of what has been said made me think about re-playability in games. You can divide games into two fuzzy categories: Games designed to play once (e.g., an RPG such as Baldurs Gate), and, games designed to be replayed constantly (such as strategic games, chess (et al), and, of course, flight sims).
A once only game hinges on things like its storyline, and in this sense, Typhoons story is structured as a once only event.
For example, I just replayed the cruise missile section. My skill has improved, so I got them without any trouble. Nothing at all has changed because of this, so the game is telling me that my primary option is to crank up the difficulty if I want a different play experience.
A replayable game would change the conditions of the next chapter in some way. By playing again, I would begin experiencing the dynamics of the game.
In a once only game it doesnt matter, as long as I experience the story in an immersive way (and like the story, but that is highly subjective).

Both game types are valid and enjoyable. They are also able to overlap to some degree A strategy game based on a historical battle is enacted within a fixed domain, but a player can expect to get different outcomes at some level And, importantly, it is usually clear what level of outcome the player is affecting.

Typhoon does this very well, as almost everyone is saying, at the flight level (the hardcore/litesim debate is a different issue More about presenting the package to players).
Unfortunately, to experience this, the player must keep replaying the same basic learning missions (e.g., the cruise missile strike).

So, constructively, one problem with putting the learning curve unavoidably in the main body of the game, without also linking it to a palpable in-game result, is that the game loses replay value. The player eventually gets sick of practicing gunnery against missiles.

Although Typhoons engine is dynamic, it seems to be slaved utterly to the external storyline. This means that even if you dont mind replaying the learning scenarios for the same outcome, you simply go to another chapter that is itself unchanging. By the time you hit the end of the game there is a pyramidal reality glitch I was getting news casts saying Iceland was about to fall, whilst getting no missions because the Russians had lost. If the Russians had been winning (as I think occurred in Manteaus first campaign?), then the glitch would have been so why are they nuking their own territory when another day or so would do it?

In effect, the dynamic campaign engine works to undermine the plot, unless the players performance is as expected 100% The further the number gets from 100, the bigger the reality glitch. Hence, I think, all the little idiosyncrasies that are in there to make sure you dont get too far off the plot.

That is always a risky technique, because people are pretty creative when it comes to getting what they want out of something (read up on gaming theory for example). The worst effect in Typhoon is a degree of dissatisfaction with the most successful bit of the game This board is full of discussion by people who like the flying, but dont get it when their weapons performance is inconsistent And inconsistent is the most common perception now that we are getting used to things.

You can structure a dynamic game into chapters with fixed outcomes at some level (to keep the plot), whilst allowing player action carry-over in other areas For example, some games do it by moving play into different domains (new role for the squadron, e.g.), others with resource bonuses, and so on I think we would benefit by discussing this in some depth There is more than one good idea floating about on this board.
The suggestions will be more constructive if people know more about the underlying structure of the game, and what can/cant be feasibly changed/added to/whatever. That is about game transparency, and now that a few of us have played it through, it would be helpful to know what is happening under the bonnet.
It would help development as well Manufacturers of other games are reading this board and paying attention, but it would be nice for the individuals who worked so hard on Typhoon to be the ones getting the buy this now reviews at some future date.
Releasing files (or whatever it is you lot are talking about :confused) is a good step, but for those of us who cant programme, discussion of concepts is a good way to contribute And remember, if the codings good, then it is the concept that the player sees. If the concepts good, the player gets immersed.

Moving on to the ending of the game, Steve has posted this:
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hunt:
Shame you don't like the ending.... but look at the end of WWII (couple of well placed end-of-level bombs - job done!)


This is correct, and part of my complaint was about the frustration levels, though it does jar on many of my personal reality checks.
Again constructively, whilst a game can attempt to be realistic it is also by definition a metaphor for reality Games tend to be a little more user friendly than the real thing, and we enjoy them because they (often spuriously) support our notion that we can control our destinies. War as I understand it is usually alternately boring and scary Games I expect to be entertaining. This is also where games depart from novels and films, wordcount not withstanding, you can enjoy a novel in which the characters are frustrated, whereas it is difficult to enjoy a game where the player is frustrated. Frustration and difficulty do not equate in gaming.

You could certainly end Typhoon with a nuclear strike using new tech. For it to work as a game, you also need to explain what you are doing to the player in some way, and allow them to play it without getting too frustrated.
(IMO the rationale was poor given what had been a very plausible and contemporary storyline But thats IMO).
It also helps a lot if the explanations fit reasonably well with the players perception of what is occurring in the game, so it links quite closely with what I have been saying about the effect of player action.

So, to make that particular ending work I would suggest that you need:
...A reason for the strike that does not depend on events in Iceland, or does so in a dynamic way (3 reasons then; player winning, player loosing, player drawn?)
...Enough in-game hints and information to allow the player to succeed fairly easily at their preferred difficulty setting Its ok to replay a few times, as long as there are planned changes you can make. It gets frustrating when you havent got a clue and know that you aint gonna get one. c.f. hitting your head against a brick wall.
...A mid game experience that is dynamic enough (howsoever structured) that the player wants to play again even if personally the ending doesnt inspire them.
But, in general, I would say that games that are so tightly slaved to one endgame scenario tend to be once only games.

I do accept that you might have developed Typhoon as a once-only game. I would prefer to have been told, as I approach different game styles in different ways There are two full pages in the manual (48-49) that talk about 4 dynamically modelled levels within a framework described as extra theatre influences Not quite the same thing as a rigid plot. A game about the battle of Ardennes would have WWII as an unchanging extra theatre influence, but you would expect to be able to win or lose the battle based on your actions as a player.

Despite our variously conceived replies, I think that a lot of us are plugging away at the same basic issues So Im glad a couple of you are getting to work at developing things a bit. Let me know if you want any conceptual level input I know what I want this game to do, but how to get there Not a clue.
If you are making an add-on version Steve, I wont flame you, but I would like to see some really open discussion about what players want and how it might be structured I mean, why do you think that a dynamic campaign needs to end with a won/lost/return to desktop event?

#560186 - 05/29/01 08:57 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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*Hengist*, you asked:
Btw, "So *Hengists* perfectly reasonable assumption doesnt work"... What assumption was that?

Quote:
Originally posted by *Hengist*:
it was a bit intense. I ran out of ammo. Next time I'll ram the bloody last one )


Doesn't seem to work mate.

Explanations anyone?

#560187 - 05/29/01 09:05 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Cnebba:
Doesn't seem to work mate.

Explanations anyone?


What happened?

Cheers,
Manteau

#560188 - 05/29/01 09:36 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Manteau:
What happened?


Not sure... From within the cockpit I was firing rockets that seemed to be exploding. Heading into the things exhaust's on full afterburner (A la arcade game, I was frustrated beyond caring).
I presume I hit, because my 'plane exploded and cut to the usual death screen. Did it with two 'planes, so the probability that I was shot down just prior to impact isn't that high. Also, second 'plane was basically undamaged.
There was no effect on the Russian craft that I could see.
Now that I've tried it again a few times, I'm not sure the rockets were damaging it either... Maybe I just kept it busy enough for one my wingmen to get the kill?
With gun hits it eventually gives out smoke trails... A few levels of these to show increasing damage, and then it spirals down firing up at you all the way in.

I wish I knew what the damn thing was and how it's supposed to work... Projectile specific force fields?

#560189 - 05/29/01 09:43 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Cnebba:
Not sure... From within the cockpit I was firing rockets that seemed to be exploding. Heading into the things exhaust's on full afterburner (A la arcade game, I was frustrated beyond caring).
I presume I hit, because my 'plane exploded and cut to the usual death screen. Did it with two 'planes, so the probability that I was shot down just prior to impact isn't that high. Also, second 'plane was basically undamaged.
There was no effect on the Russian craft that I could see.
Now that I've tried it again a few times, I'm not sure the rockets were damaging it either... Maybe I just kept it busy enough for one my wingmen to get the kill?
With gun hits it eventually gives out smoke trails... A few levels of these to show increasing damage, and then it spirals down firing up at you all the way in.

I wish I knew what the damn thing was and how it's supposed to work... Projectile specific force fields?


LOL

Perhaps you have to do something snazzy like *push* the aircraft into the ground V1 style.

Or perhaps you have to do something like fly in front of it and light the burners and burn the nose off it.

I don't know - Worth a try...

Cheers,
Manteau

#560190 - 05/29/01 09:54 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Cnebba:
*Hengist*, you asked:
Btw, "So *Hengists* perfectly reasonable assumption doesnt work"... What assumption was that?

Doesn't seem to work mate.

Explanations anyone?


I've tried the kamikaze stunt since Cnebba, it does work



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Hengist.

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http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#560191 - 05/29/01 09:56 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Manteau:
Or perhaps you have to do something like fly in front of it and light the burners and burn the nose off it.


I did consider bombing it, but then I remembered that laser guided bombs need someone on site with the zap gun - Bad job for some poor grunt. Didn't rate my chances of hitting it with the unguided type... Maybe just fly a squadron loaded with 1000 pounders into it?

What's LOL mean?

Cheers

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