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#560152 - 05/28/01 11:29 PM Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Thats an ending? Doh, even most 10 year olds can cobble together a better story than that.
Now why did I ever bother myself trying to get a balanced perspective on this game when it basically just crashes on a third-rate plot?

Lets try for a facsimile of calm here.

I dont want spoil it for anyone else but the ending boils down to two surreal missions against ludicrously difficult targets No, I dont mean a complex scripted puzzle mission (etc.) I mean a small number of flying bricks that cant be hit with missiles (they fly into the ground This, for once, is not about launch parameters; dont go there.). No warning, no explanation, nothing, just big weapons platforms that fly in a straight line and shoot concentrated AAA at you.

(Oh, well, there is sort of a puzzle / hint in there One of the multi-player missions lets you practice silly mission #1 Lets see, figuring that one out must be part of the fun of playing Hey, multi-dimensional or what hold me back!).

How are you supposed to kill them? Dunno, but I did it eventually with CVR7 rockets. So much for reality checks not even a cheesy sub-Hollywood level tie-in.
The behemoth in the final mission took 3 plane-loads (I accept most of them probably missed), plus kamikaze ramming by two planes. So *Hengists* perfectly reasonable assumption doesnt work, but it does give us a reason for keeping a few pilots alive through the game Enough smart missiles to win. Thing is, I was trying to like those pilots, and it was random, just a damned if Im starting this one more time sort of thing.

Someone out there in the employ of the marketing team is about to write in and tell me that actually war is hell, and what more heroic/tragic ending could I want, blah blah. Well if it hung together as a plot, and eased back on the frustration, maybe, but why not just code a first person shooter based on the Somme? dakkadakkadakka youre dead, sos your mate, wow look at the modelling on that mud.
And, no doubt, someone else will point out that theres a weakness in there somewhere, youve just got to fire two ASRAAMS at the ground and then hit CTRL-ZAP twice whilst standing on one leg and chanting a mantra Yeah all right, but a lot of us are over age 10. Even if its more sensible than that, who cares?
Theres probably even someone with a copy of Janes daft ideas from the 19th century that can cite me a reference for flying battleships. OK, but it still needs to hang together. You dont insert implausibility and frustration into a game without a very good (explained) reason, not if you expect to get good customer reactions.

Point is, however you try to prop it up, it isnt any fun at all. Maybe you could even squeeze a plot out of it, but the entertainment is definitely AWOL. Its frustrating, repetitive, only allows two saves, and doesnt relate at all to anything you might have achieved in the rest of the campaign (except for the number of smart missiles you get, of course).

I suppose it does engage with the player on an emotional level Not sure that anger was the best one to go for though.

OK, feels like Im calming down a bit now You can kind of see a climactic ending hiding in there somewhere, but for me it just blew away the whole game If any of the game designers wants to start a discussion on what elements (realistic or not, hardcore or not) make a game better, and what makes a game worse, and most important of all, where you just shouldnt go, then lets do it. Because
I actually enjoyed the game until those last missions, warts 'n' all, and theres this new post today that sums up exactly how well the flying usually grabs you and sucks you in. I wish you hadnt done that.

Rant over.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#560153 - 05/29/01 12:10 AM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Thanks for the warning. I have a friend who's still traumatised over the ending to Half-life - I've no intention to end up the same way!

I've played the multiplayer mission so I know about one of the missions you refer to - bit silly having an end-of-game mission in the only 'single mission' section you can get to! The thing was, while playing it and getting sprayed with fire, I was thinking 'I'm so glad I'll have missiles to sort these guys out with in the single player game'. D'oh.

Never end a flight sim with a climatic and impossible battle. You might as well just write a space sim instead. It's not realistic and it doesn't happen.

------------------
Fletch

#560154 - 05/29/01 02:04 AM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Ballistic:
The thing was, while playing it and getting sprayed with fire, I was thinking 'I'm so glad I'll have missiles to sort these guys out with in the single player game'. D'oh.


Yup, I had one quick look, and thought the same thing. Unless I missed it, they don't even tell you why missiles won't target them. Sad really.

#560155 - 05/29/01 10:40 AM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Cnebba,

I agree with your views. I somehow felt cheated when those final scripted missions popped up. What was the point of fighting those Russians if this happens everytime?

I can't wait to see if this annoying end is dropped in the add-on. Otherwise people are gonna play EFT once and stick it on the shelf.

I'm really looking forward to the campaign being opened up... and hopefully a better cockpit without those view obscuring pop-up MFD's and info bar (I can wish ), the graphical beauty of this sim needs to be seen, not obscured... I did offer my services to Mr Hunt a while back with regards to this... But I also knew that it would be impossible for me to help due to copyrights, etc

The ability to stagger the 6 pilots take off times would be cool. I hate having to jump from plane to plane to save the AI, but I guess this is the way the campaign engine works and would be quite difficult to change... dunno really, just guessing.

Btw, "So *Hengists* perfectly reasonable assumption doesnt work"... What assumption was that?

------------------


Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley


[This message has been edited by *Hengist* (edited 05-29-2001).]

#560156 - 05/29/01 11:47 AM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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It's one thing being an accessable and goodlooking lite-flightsim its another having end of level bosses..Urgh! Thank god they left out the health packs and powerups.

Seriously though I am enjoying the game but am not looking forward to the scripted end game badguys

#560157 - 05/29/01 11:53 AM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Wilder:
It's one thing being an accessable and goodlooking lite-flightsim its another having end of level bosses..Urgh! Thank god they left out the health packs and powerups.


LOL!

I was thinking that - fly through two hoops in a row and get Quad damage

Thinking about it it would probably make the game more realistic in terms of weapons effictiveness

Cheers,
Manteau

#560158 - 05/29/01 12:04 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Manteau:
LOL!

I was thinking that - fly through two hoops in a row and get Quad damage

Thinking about it it would probably make the game more realistic in terms of weapons effictiveness

Cheers,
Manteau


Hahaa, nice one M

After a Bank Holiday all-day (and most of the night) drinking session (we had a carnival in my home town), I'm not feeling my best at the moment, In fact I've found an empty room at work, turned the lights off and I'm hoping people wont find me

Your post brought a smile to my face... I needed it




------------------
\:\)

Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#560159 - 05/29/01 12:39 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  
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Here's another way to look at this question...

Let's imagine a situation where a writer wanted to write a book that was 'X' words long and no more, period.

When the book is published, some people don't like the ending...and others wish there was more content to enhance the story.

The writer might agree and rewrite the ending without any change in word count...but he can't add more content because of his word count restriction.

That's sorta how I see Typhoon.

We probably won't see much done to the cockpit because that would change the 'word count' too much.

But we might be able to do something with the ending.

So let's provide Rage with some well-thought out suggestions and alternatives instead of complaints. Steve has already indicated a willingness to consider changes. He'll probably be more receptive to positive input than negative.



Andy

#560160 - 05/29/01 01:08 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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For a *new* ending I'd like no scripting and just to either loose because Russia actually does (in terms of the ground war) take over the island, or we drive them off.

I don't want fancy fairy-tail missions where you can't save it or you can't use certain weapons.

I just want it to end realistically.

I'm not particularly interested in fancy video cut-scenes at the end either, but I can live with them it they show something like the Russians retreating or something like a missing-man formation fly-by.

Which would be IMO much better than the current pan over the graves when you loose - okay, ground troops may have died as well, but you don't actually see them in the game, whilst the game is a flight sim, so...

Cheers,
Manteau

[This message has been edited by Manteau (edited 05-29-2001).]

#560161 - 05/29/01 01:16 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Andy,

On the whole I think my statements have been quite balanced regarding Typhoon. I've made many posts on this forum acknowledging Typhoons excellent features, and I've also pointed out my dissapointment with certain aspects of the game. I've also made many suggestions on how the sim could be improved.

I'm not setting out to be negative about Typhoon, I'm just telling it as I see it. I don't want to offend anybody.. well not today anyway

------------------
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Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#560162 - 05/29/01 01:21 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Here's another way to look at this question...

Let's imagine a situation where a writer wanted to write a book that was 'X' words long and no more, period.

When the book is published, some people don't like the ending...and others wish there was more content to enhance the story.

The writer might agree and rewrite the ending without any change in word count...but he can't add more content because of his word count restriction.

That's sorta how I see Typhoon.

We probably won't see much done to the cockpit because that would change the 'word count' too much.

But we might be able to do something with the ending.

So let's provide Rage with some well-thought out suggestions and alternatives instead of complaints. Steve has already indicated a willingness to consider changes. He'll probably be more receptive to positive input than negative.



Andy


P.S. Can't we drop some of the existing chapters and write new ones, to keep within the word count limit?

Shame about the pit, I does really annoy me. I love to pan around and look at the lovely terrain. When I was playing EFT, I found that I could get by without ever turning the MFD's on. However, it's not an ideal solution.

------------------


Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

[This message has been edited by *Hengist* (edited 05-29-2001).]

#560163 - 05/29/01 02:07 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Hi,

Shame you don't like the ending.... but look at the end of WWII (couple of well placed end-of-level bombs - job done!)

I know this won't make you like the end, but it's not that different from real life from that point of view.

Cheers,

Steve

[This message has been edited by Steve Hunt (edited 05-29-2001).]

#560164 - 05/29/01 02:19 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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A fair point Steve.

However, your teasing us now. We all know that uncle Steve is going to open up the campaign... don't we?

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Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#560165 - 05/29/01 02:22 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Quote:
Originally posted by *Hengist*:
However, your teasing us now. We all know that uncle Steve is going to open up the campaign... don't we?


Yeah

And that .dat file

Seriously, though Steve - taking away the scripting (or at least making it realistic scripting) and giving lots more campaigns and a bigger theatre of operations would really get me playing the game again.

Cheers,
Manteau

#560166 - 05/29/01 02:30 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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lol, if we understood the .dat file, we could stop messing around with TAW and concentrate on implementing Typhoon II.

Feasability.
Analysis.
Design.
Implementation.
Testing.
Evaluation.
Maintenance.

Hell if Manteau got his head around the .dat file, he'd have all the first 6 stages above completed by the weekend. The guy seriously knows his stuff.

I think I've sobered up enough to try and do some work... Now where did I put that 'Teach yourself C++ in 24 hours' book?

------------------


Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley



[This message has been edited by *Hengist* (edited 05-29-2001).]

#560167 - 05/29/01 02:44 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Quote:
Originally posted by *Hengist*:
Hell if Manteau got his head around the .dat file, he'd have all the first 6 stages above completed by the weekend. The guy seriously knows his stuff.


LOL!!!

I think if I had got that far, Steve would have started to panic and sent the boys round with the Black&Decker

Possibly could have rung Rage's legal team as well issuing a Cease and Desist warning

Cheers,
Manteau

#560168 - 05/29/01 02:54 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Hi,

I like the ending - the other main reason for one big showdown was to end on a massive battle where you win or lose, otherwise you end up with an EF2000 'War is Won' / 'Lost' popping on the screen at some arbitrary moment.

Anyway, I can see and understand you view point though.

Had an idea though - although the campaign won't be opened up just yet (and this may only be in the add-on version (FLAME!)) - how about me sending you the files that drive the campaign and you can have a look and maybe even start to putting a basic editor together? - wah-da-ya think?

Cheers,

Steve



[This message has been edited by Steve Hunt (edited 05-29-2001).]

#560169 - 05/29/01 02:57 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Steve, what a fantastic suggestion. You are the man

One special email addy awaiting the files...

Typhoon@hengist.co.uk

Thanks once again.

------------------
\:\)

Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#560170 - 05/29/01 03:01 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hunt:
Had an idea though - although the campaign won't be opened up just yet (and this may only be in the add-on version (FLAME!)) - how about me sending you the files that drive the campaign and you can have a look and maybe even start to putting a basic editor together? - wah-da-ya think?


Yeah, why not? - I need a break from looking at f22.dat

What are they, text files, binaries?

Also, do you mind clarifying what "drive the campaign" means?

I'm a bit confused - are they the files that say, "right, russians have 60% of island, so lets send a few nukes at ICEFOR" or are they more lower level, e.g. Harriers, Tornados, EFAs do SEAD and CAS missions, etc, etc.

Cheers,
Manteau

#560171 - 05/29/01 03:01 PM Re: Bad, bad ending...[possible spoiler, definite rant))  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hunt:
otherwise you end up with an EF2000 'War is Won' / 'Lost' popping on the screen at some arbitrary moment.
This message has been edited by Steve Hunt (edited 05-29-2001).]


P.S. I don't mind that. In fact every dynamic campaign/sim I have does something similar to that.


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Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

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