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#559291 - 05/18/01 02:39 PM THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Okay, its a lite sim...graphics look great...avionics and weapons model are not up to Janes standards (but then, what is )
No problem with that, so far.
but this
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/Forum48/HTML/000481.html
is ridiculous.
So, basically, you can't hit shite with a missile at 2 nm, when its supposed to go 5?

And there are some "magic paramters" but sadly they can't be unrevealed 'cause we will have to buy the strategy guide?

Come on Andy, excatly THAT is enough to make my decision NOT to buy this sim. Weapons devilery paramters and hints belong into the manual...not into a kind of extra strategy guide. For me, this sounds like pure marketing suicide.

If weapons are really that bad in this sim lite, then its a show stopper. Shall I byu it at all? Not to be harsh, but such comments sound like direct from Hasblo Headquarters.

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#559292 - 05/18/01 03:01 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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***Andy takes a big breath...***

>>And there are some "magic paramters" but sadly they can't be unrevealed 'cause we will have to buy the strategy guide?<<

There are no 'magic' parameters. No one is playing games with you all. There is no deal to sell a Strategy Guide so that buyers can play the game. The Guide will help you play it better, that's all.

>>Weapons devilery paramters and hints belong into the manual...not into a kind of extra strategy guide. For me, this sounds like pure marketing suicide.<<

I say again...this is not the plan. The Strategy Guide amplifies info in the manual.

>>If weapons are really that bad in this sim lite, then its a show stopper.<<

This is not true, particularly for the A2G weapons. I hit with the Brimstone and Penguin at a rate that is what I would expect in RL...better than 50%, often considerably better. I do not have any inside info or tips from Rage...not a single one. I employ these weapons using parameters that look good to me. No...I'm not going to tell you what they are!! Not yet, at least!!



My point is that the weapons are getting a bad rap. Maybe the problem is unrealistic expectations, maybe it's bad employment technique, or maybe the game AI took away a good shot just to keep the suspense up. Here's a tip...before you begin the engagement, save the game. If things don't work out, reload it, change your tactics, and try again.

Let's not keep banging our heads on the wall. If shooting as soon as the target gets inside the max range bar isn't working (or whatever), try something different.

Andy

#559293 - 05/18/01 03:29 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
This is not true, particularly for the A2G weapons. I hit with the Brimstone and Penguin at a rate that is what I would expect in RL...better than 50%, often considerably better. I do not have any inside info or tips from Rage...not a single one. I employ these weapons using parameters that look good to me. No...I'm not going to tell you what they are!! Not yet, at least!!


Okay, but WHY are numerours other people reporting that they can't hit before being within 2 nm of range...

It can't be that they just dont get it?

Manteu reported:
Quote:
ORiginal posted by Manteau:
I've tried flying at 30,000 feet 3 miles from target, directly pointing at the target, and I get misses.

I've tried coming in low at 500 feet 2 miles from target - misses, but admittedly I have had a hit once or twice - but this is suicide coming in so close and low to kill a target.

I've tried from 5,000 feet 5 nm from target - misses.

I've tried launching directly DOWN on the target - misses.

These are with T-90 tanks FFS.



So, it touches me a little strange that you report to get more than 50% hits, and others dont hit a barn door. Where's the trick?
Something is wrong here, and I wouldn't by a giude to find a workaround.

While I'm writing this I've read the original topic, and found some explanations by Steve Hunt. Sorry, but this just proves that this game is more arcadish than even USAF.
If we COULD indeed built up on it, then bring it on...but it doens't seem so, not really.

#559294 - 05/18/01 03:37 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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Hi,

Okay - here's a little insite into how the Brimstone works:
Fire weapon - takes on velocity of plane:
8 seconds of burn and tracking on target
12 seconds of tracking on target (no burn)
18 seconds of freefall.

So at 30,000 feet, you still might miss 'cos of the time to target (If it's > 20 seconds you'll fall short).

See the other thread about the reasons why the Brimstone is modeled in this way.

Hope this helps,

Steve

#559295 - 05/18/01 03:39 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by RSColonel_131st:
So, it touches me a little strange that you report to get more than 50% hits, and others dont hit a barn door. Where's the trick?
Something is wrong here, and I wouldn't by a giude to find a workaround.

While I'm writing this I've read the original topic, and found some explanations by Steve Hunt. Sorry, but this just proves that this game is more arcadish than even USAF.
If we COULD indeed built up on it, then bring it on...but it doens't seem so, not really.



Thanks - this is exactly my point.

I wouldn't mind as much if I could find out the best launch parameters for the weapons - but I've been flying the game for 2 whole weeks (at least 3 hours a day in most cases) and I've yet to discover a tactic that works - other than coming in very close.

I've also noticed that I get a better PK with moving targets (Hovercraft, Ekranoplanes) than tanks and AAA, even with similar launch characteristics.

Cheers,
Manteau

#559296 - 05/18/01 05:16 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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"I hit with the Brimstone and Penguin at a rate that is what I would expect in RL...better than 50%, often considerably better. " - Andy Bush

I have read that the Maverick missile had a PK ratio of 84% during the Gulf War.

I find it very hard to believe that a new-generation weapon like the Brimstone would be this much less effective than the weapon it is to replace.

#559297 - 05/18/01 06:32 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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I for one, do not understand this constant comparison of EF-T to real life. Its not.


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#559298 - 05/18/01 06:37 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Silverswift:
I for one, do not understand this constant comparison of EF-T to real life. Its not.


Well they might as well have set the sim in another galaxy with made up aircraft and weapons then.

I don't mind it not being hardcore - but what's the point in having precision guided weapons that have a range of 3 nm?

Cheers,
Manteau

#559299 - 05/18/01 06:41 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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Very good point Manteau.

I still don't have the sim, but I am looking forward to buy it.


-.-

#559300 - 05/18/01 06:48 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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I'm trying to approach it a different way, now. Let's just imagine that ICEFOR is sort of the "black sheep" of NATO, and they get all the crappy parts...that combined with the cold weather, causes the weapons to miss the target more often.
Or maybe the Russians have a spy that's tampering with the guidance systems..

-Steve C


"Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."
-Dwight D Eisenhower
#559301 - 05/18/01 07:21 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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>>I don't mind it not being hardcore - but what's the point in having precision guided weapons that have a range of 3 nm?<<

Maybe there is a misconception here. Many factors go into effective weapons employment. Standoff is one of them...but standoff does not necessarily imply shooting from miles away. It may only mean shooting from a position that allows the shooter to not overfly the enemy (or into his weapon engagement zone).

This is the case with Typhoon, as I have found in my gameplay. I only want to stay out of the AAA envelope.

The 'precision' in the name is exactly what it implies...hitting with a better probability than a manual release would give. It often has nothing to do with employment range...only hit Pk.

The same kind of thinking goes into the CCIP concept. The weapon is often the same...delivered from pretty much the same parameters. The better aiming system improves accuracy. As a result, the 'dumb' bomb almost gets 'smart'.

As for Mavericks...I have some experience with these in RL. Firing range depends greatly on target contrast, especially for the TV version. In Europe, because of target size (tank) and background lighting conditions, we were lucky to even see a tank outside of 2-3 nm. By the time we got pointed at it, locked it up in the Mav MFD, and then shot, we were many times inside one mile.

IR Mavericks in Desert Storm were the exception to the rule. No enemy air to worry about allowed Hogs to patrol at medium altitudes. The desert provided an excellent IR contrast...the Iraqis could be 'seen' on the IR Maverick MFD for miles further than the pilot could visually see them. He just flew at the target until in range...then he fired. It was as close to 'fish in a barrel' shooting as we have seen in war. This is definitely not a Typhoon environment.

I just reflew a Penguin and Brimstone mission against hovercraft and container ships. My results again were similar...about 50% or better, depending on target type and weapon. Yes...these things miss...but not excessively.

Press in, single out the tail-end charlie, shoot him, and break away.

It's been that way since WW1.

Andy

#559302 - 05/18/01 07:31 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
As for Mavericks...I have some experience with these in RL. Firing range depends greatly on target contrast, especially for the TV version. In Europe, because of target size (tank) and background lighting conditions, we were lucky to even see a tank outside of 2-3 nm. By the time we got pointed at it, locked it up in the Mav MFD, and then shot, we were many times inside one mile.

IR Mavericks in Desert Storm were the exception to the rule. No enemy air to worry about allowed Hogs to patrol at medium altitudes. The desert provided an excellent IR contrast...the Iraqis could be 'seen' on the IR Maverick MFD for miles further than the pilot could visually see them. He just flew at the target until in range...then he fired. It was as close to 'fish in a barrel' shooting as we have seen in war. This is definitely not a Typhoon environment.

I just reflew a Penguin and Brimstone mission against hovercraft and container ships. My results again were similar...about 50% or better, depending on target type and weapon. Yes...these things miss...but not excessively.

Press in, single out the tail-end charlie, shoot him, and break away.

It's been that way since WW1.

Andy



Okay, Okay, you've convinced me...

I'm still not completely happy, but I'll shut up now

Cheers,
Manteau

#559303 - 05/18/01 07:34 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Actually, I guess the whole thing that bothers me is the Wingman's use of them, or your 6 pilots. I just wish the 6 you choose were smarter, I don't like flying EVERY mission becuase my guys and gals are idiots, but on the first mission (spy trawler), I lost one guy...a Strike guy (can't remember the name). He got shot down...bailed out, and died in the ocean...
1 down, 5 to go...

Just out of curiosity, I let the war continue without me while I went to get some beer (I know, don't drink and fly )...
When I got back (1/2 hour or so in RL, I used Accel time in the game), 2 guys dead, 1 in jail...serves me right, I guess.

Personally, getting in close is fine with me...more action...just let the AI do the same thing. I feel like I'm defending Iceland by myself, not with a whole squadron.


"Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."
-Dwight D Eisenhower
#559304 - 05/18/01 07:53 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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You know Andy, I don't think there's anyway you can justify the weapon performance (as reported by others) in this game. Luckily for SF, I got mine today,so I'll be playing it soon. Steve himself came out and reported that the weapon scaling is inacurate, and some concessions have been made for gameplay. Manteau, and others states they tried the Brimstones several different ways without comparable success to to their real world counterparts, and I for one believe them. Come on, a 2 mile range on a Hellfire from altitude!? But, like I said, that will not detract in the least for me, from the game. I really don't think that, considering Steve said he is thinking about a solution to make everyone happy, this should be as big a deal as it is, esp. given how many other areas this game excels at. I purchased it expecting a lighter im than Flanker 2.0. I mean, that game is just hard, so much so that it's disturbing how much the difficulty detracts from the gameplay. In EF-T, I expect just a romp, and I think that's what everyone should and get off this realism thing. So, Andy, as admirable as your intentions maybe, you just can't please everyone, and the insistance that a 2 mile range on a Hellfire (along with the inferior performance on the other missles) is realistic & acceptable is just not beliveable. IMO. I'm no pilot.

[This message has been edited by Silverswift (edited 05-18-2001).]


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#559305 - 05/19/01 04:24 AM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Silverswift

>>insistance that a 2 mile range on a Hellfire (along with the inferior performance on the other missles) is realistic & acceptable<<

I never said that. The 2 nm number is someone else's. I agree with Steve's numbers.

What I did say was that I was not getting the same lousy results that some others were. I agreed that the max range bar was overly optimistic, and then I tried to explain why that is often the case in RL and then I mentioned that this is also the case in sims that are recognized as being true to RL (F4 and F2).

I have no idea why these other players are not getting the same results as Steve and I. And contrary to the first sentence in your last post, I certainly am not trying to justify it.

Andy

#559306 - 05/19/01 08:18 AM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Of course, Andy, you'll take everything I said out of context. You're very defensive. Perhaps if you ever get to the good side of the river (the Mississippi river of course), I'll buy you a beer and we can get down to the basis of all that.

[This message has been edited by Silverswift (edited 05-19-2001).]


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#559307 - 05/19/01 11:20 AM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Silverswift:
Of course, Andy, you'll take everything I said out of context. You're very defensive.


I just read this thread, and then read it again slowly. Andy hasn't taken anything out of context and isn't being defensive.

Quote:
Manteau, and others states they tried the Brimstones several different ways without comparable success to to their real world counterparts, and I for one believe them.


Of course the folk complaining about their lack of success with the Brimstone should be believed, but I've been getting a very high hit rate on enemy tanks with that weapon and you can believe that too!

Andy and I are being as helpful as we can, within the constraints of our contractual obligation to Rage. Meanwhile Andy has been trying to plug the gap with as much good advice as possible. Many people would consider the insight to real world weapon employment that Andy has to offer, a very valuable contribution to this forum. Perhaps when you actually find time to play the game, we might be able to help you too.

Badboy

#559308 - 05/19/01 02:18 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Forget weapon parameter's............and all that crap!
They do hit home
Steve Hunt made this statement as regard's "why target's *aren't* being knocked out"
"The 2-3 hits per target was also a gameplay decision. We did have 1 shot kills with Brimstones, but the invasion was just to easy to stop - you could kill a whole group of tanks with 10 pulls of the trigger from 10nm away. There were 2 ways round this - 1 more tanks (game too slow) or more hits for a kill."

So there is your answer! Andy's just trying to sell you a body swerve!

A lite sim with a long white bar(a range bar to the uninitiated lol) Firing highly advanced weapon's which need altitude/range/ weather/velocity of carrying platform etc taken into account *which* of course the manual make's no reference to because it *doesn't* NEED TOO except when target is *within* the "range bar" press the trigger and select another target............as per EF2000.
This is the old saying "Can't baffle them with science? Then dazzle them with bull****!" lol heard it all now

Tracer



------------------
"Flying is the second hardest thing known to man.........the first is landing!"

#559309 - 05/19/01 06:01 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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WOW! Just ribbing Andy! YOu guys are so serious around here!


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#559310 - 05/19/01 06:37 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Andy Bush Offline
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Silverswift, Tracer...

Yes, we are serious here at SimHQ. We set this forum up to help players with the game...not to provide an outlet for anyone to blow off steam.

Those that feel the need to be overtly negative or insulting to others can surely find somewhere else to post their comments. Just not here, please. The folks that come here for info don't have the time for trashtalk.

I've said before that folks can either be part of the solution or part of the problem. Recently, some of the posts are getting too close to the latter.

If someone has somethng positive to contribute, then great! We want to hear it. If someone has a problem that they need help with, then we want to hear that too. Maybe we can help. But, if all someone wants to do is to rant on about an issue that has already been addressed, then I'm going to pull the plug on them.

Andy

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