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#559291 - 05/18/01 02:39 PM THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Okay, its a lite sim...graphics look great...avionics and weapons model are not up to Janes standards (but then, what is )
No problem with that, so far.
but this
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/Forum48/HTML/000481.html
is ridiculous.
So, basically, you can't hit shite with a missile at 2 nm, when its supposed to go 5?

And there are some "magic paramters" but sadly they can't be unrevealed 'cause we will have to buy the strategy guide?

Come on Andy, excatly THAT is enough to make my decision NOT to buy this sim. Weapons devilery paramters and hints belong into the manual...not into a kind of extra strategy guide. For me, this sounds like pure marketing suicide.

If weapons are really that bad in this sim lite, then its a show stopper. Shall I byu it at all? Not to be harsh, but such comments sound like direct from Hasblo Headquarters.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#559292 - 05/18/01 03:01 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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***Andy takes a big breath...***

>>And there are some "magic paramters" but sadly they can't be unrevealed 'cause we will have to buy the strategy guide?<<

There are no 'magic' parameters. No one is playing games with you all. There is no deal to sell a Strategy Guide so that buyers can play the game. The Guide will help you play it better, that's all.

>>Weapons devilery paramters and hints belong into the manual...not into a kind of extra strategy guide. For me, this sounds like pure marketing suicide.<<

I say again...this is not the plan. The Strategy Guide amplifies info in the manual.

>>If weapons are really that bad in this sim lite, then its a show stopper.<<

This is not true, particularly for the A2G weapons. I hit with the Brimstone and Penguin at a rate that is what I would expect in RL...better than 50%, often considerably better. I do not have any inside info or tips from Rage...not a single one. I employ these weapons using parameters that look good to me. No...I'm not going to tell you what they are!! Not yet, at least!!



My point is that the weapons are getting a bad rap. Maybe the problem is unrealistic expectations, maybe it's bad employment technique, or maybe the game AI took away a good shot just to keep the suspense up. Here's a tip...before you begin the engagement, save the game. If things don't work out, reload it, change your tactics, and try again.

Let's not keep banging our heads on the wall. If shooting as soon as the target gets inside the max range bar isn't working (or whatever), try something different.

Andy

#559293 - 05/18/01 03:29 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
This is not true, particularly for the A2G weapons. I hit with the Brimstone and Penguin at a rate that is what I would expect in RL...better than 50%, often considerably better. I do not have any inside info or tips from Rage...not a single one. I employ these weapons using parameters that look good to me. No...I'm not going to tell you what they are!! Not yet, at least!!


Okay, but WHY are numerours other people reporting that they can't hit before being within 2 nm of range...

It can't be that they just dont get it?

Manteu reported:
Quote:
ORiginal posted by Manteau:
I've tried flying at 30,000 feet 3 miles from target, directly pointing at the target, and I get misses.

I've tried coming in low at 500 feet 2 miles from target - misses, but admittedly I have had a hit once or twice - but this is suicide coming in so close and low to kill a target.

I've tried from 5,000 feet 5 nm from target - misses.

I've tried launching directly DOWN on the target - misses.

These are with T-90 tanks FFS.



So, it touches me a little strange that you report to get more than 50% hits, and others dont hit a barn door. Where's the trick?
Something is wrong here, and I wouldn't by a giude to find a workaround.

While I'm writing this I've read the original topic, and found some explanations by Steve Hunt. Sorry, but this just proves that this game is more arcadish than even USAF.
If we COULD indeed built up on it, then bring it on...but it doens't seem so, not really.

#559294 - 05/18/01 03:37 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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Hi,

Okay - here's a little insite into how the Brimstone works:
Fire weapon - takes on velocity of plane:
8 seconds of burn and tracking on target
12 seconds of tracking on target (no burn)
18 seconds of freefall.

So at 30,000 feet, you still might miss 'cos of the time to target (If it's > 20 seconds you'll fall short).

See the other thread about the reasons why the Brimstone is modeled in this way.

Hope this helps,

Steve

#559295 - 05/18/01 03:39 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by RSColonel_131st:
So, it touches me a little strange that you report to get more than 50% hits, and others dont hit a barn door. Where's the trick?
Something is wrong here, and I wouldn't by a giude to find a workaround.

While I'm writing this I've read the original topic, and found some explanations by Steve Hunt. Sorry, but this just proves that this game is more arcadish than even USAF.
If we COULD indeed built up on it, then bring it on...but it doens't seem so, not really.



Thanks - this is exactly my point.

I wouldn't mind as much if I could find out the best launch parameters for the weapons - but I've been flying the game for 2 whole weeks (at least 3 hours a day in most cases) and I've yet to discover a tactic that works - other than coming in very close.

I've also noticed that I get a better PK with moving targets (Hovercraft, Ekranoplanes) than tanks and AAA, even with similar launch characteristics.

Cheers,
Manteau

#559296 - 05/18/01 05:16 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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"I hit with the Brimstone and Penguin at a rate that is what I would expect in RL...better than 50%, often considerably better. " - Andy Bush

I have read that the Maverick missile had a PK ratio of 84% during the Gulf War.

I find it very hard to believe that a new-generation weapon like the Brimstone would be this much less effective than the weapon it is to replace.

#559297 - 05/18/01 06:32 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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I for one, do not understand this constant comparison of EF-T to real life. Its not.


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#559298 - 05/18/01 06:37 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Silverswift:
I for one, do not understand this constant comparison of EF-T to real life. Its not.


Well they might as well have set the sim in another galaxy with made up aircraft and weapons then.

I don't mind it not being hardcore - but what's the point in having precision guided weapons that have a range of 3 nm?

Cheers,
Manteau

#559299 - 05/18/01 06:41 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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Very good point Manteau.

I still don't have the sim, but I am looking forward to buy it.


-.-

#559300 - 05/18/01 06:48 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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I'm trying to approach it a different way, now. Let's just imagine that ICEFOR is sort of the "black sheep" of NATO, and they get all the crappy parts...that combined with the cold weather, causes the weapons to miss the target more often.
Or maybe the Russians have a spy that's tampering with the guidance systems..

-Steve C


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#559301 - 05/18/01 07:21 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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>>I don't mind it not being hardcore - but what's the point in having precision guided weapons that have a range of 3 nm?<<

Maybe there is a misconception here. Many factors go into effective weapons employment. Standoff is one of them...but standoff does not necessarily imply shooting from miles away. It may only mean shooting from a position that allows the shooter to not overfly the enemy (or into his weapon engagement zone).

This is the case with Typhoon, as I have found in my gameplay. I only want to stay out of the AAA envelope.

The 'precision' in the name is exactly what it implies...hitting with a better probability than a manual release would give. It often has nothing to do with employment range...only hit Pk.

The same kind of thinking goes into the CCIP concept. The weapon is often the same...delivered from pretty much the same parameters. The better aiming system improves accuracy. As a result, the 'dumb' bomb almost gets 'smart'.

As for Mavericks...I have some experience with these in RL. Firing range depends greatly on target contrast, especially for the TV version. In Europe, because of target size (tank) and background lighting conditions, we were lucky to even see a tank outside of 2-3 nm. By the time we got pointed at it, locked it up in the Mav MFD, and then shot, we were many times inside one mile.

IR Mavericks in Desert Storm were the exception to the rule. No enemy air to worry about allowed Hogs to patrol at medium altitudes. The desert provided an excellent IR contrast...the Iraqis could be 'seen' on the IR Maverick MFD for miles further than the pilot could visually see them. He just flew at the target until in range...then he fired. It was as close to 'fish in a barrel' shooting as we have seen in war. This is definitely not a Typhoon environment.

I just reflew a Penguin and Brimstone mission against hovercraft and container ships. My results again were similar...about 50% or better, depending on target type and weapon. Yes...these things miss...but not excessively.

Press in, single out the tail-end charlie, shoot him, and break away.

It's been that way since WW1.

Andy

#559302 - 05/18/01 07:31 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
As for Mavericks...I have some experience with these in RL. Firing range depends greatly on target contrast, especially for the TV version. In Europe, because of target size (tank) and background lighting conditions, we were lucky to even see a tank outside of 2-3 nm. By the time we got pointed at it, locked it up in the Mav MFD, and then shot, we were many times inside one mile.

IR Mavericks in Desert Storm were the exception to the rule. No enemy air to worry about allowed Hogs to patrol at medium altitudes. The desert provided an excellent IR contrast...the Iraqis could be 'seen' on the IR Maverick MFD for miles further than the pilot could visually see them. He just flew at the target until in range...then he fired. It was as close to 'fish in a barrel' shooting as we have seen in war. This is definitely not a Typhoon environment.

I just reflew a Penguin and Brimstone mission against hovercraft and container ships. My results again were similar...about 50% or better, depending on target type and weapon. Yes...these things miss...but not excessively.

Press in, single out the tail-end charlie, shoot him, and break away.

It's been that way since WW1.

Andy



Okay, Okay, you've convinced me...

I'm still not completely happy, but I'll shut up now

Cheers,
Manteau

#559303 - 05/18/01 07:34 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Actually, I guess the whole thing that bothers me is the Wingman's use of them, or your 6 pilots. I just wish the 6 you choose were smarter, I don't like flying EVERY mission becuase my guys and gals are idiots, but on the first mission (spy trawler), I lost one guy...a Strike guy (can't remember the name). He got shot down...bailed out, and died in the ocean...
1 down, 5 to go...

Just out of curiosity, I let the war continue without me while I went to get some beer (I know, don't drink and fly )...
When I got back (1/2 hour or so in RL, I used Accel time in the game), 2 guys dead, 1 in jail...serves me right, I guess.

Personally, getting in close is fine with me...more action...just let the AI do the same thing. I feel like I'm defending Iceland by myself, not with a whole squadron.


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#559304 - 05/18/01 07:53 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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You know Andy, I don't think there's anyway you can justify the weapon performance (as reported by others) in this game. Luckily for SF, I got mine today,so I'll be playing it soon. Steve himself came out and reported that the weapon scaling is inacurate, and some concessions have been made for gameplay. Manteau, and others states they tried the Brimstones several different ways without comparable success to to their real world counterparts, and I for one believe them. Come on, a 2 mile range on a Hellfire from altitude!? But, like I said, that will not detract in the least for me, from the game. I really don't think that, considering Steve said he is thinking about a solution to make everyone happy, this should be as big a deal as it is, esp. given how many other areas this game excels at. I purchased it expecting a lighter im than Flanker 2.0. I mean, that game is just hard, so much so that it's disturbing how much the difficulty detracts from the gameplay. In EF-T, I expect just a romp, and I think that's what everyone should and get off this realism thing. So, Andy, as admirable as your intentions maybe, you just can't please everyone, and the insistance that a 2 mile range on a Hellfire (along with the inferior performance on the other missles) is realistic & acceptable is just not beliveable. IMO. I'm no pilot.

[This message has been edited by Silverswift (edited 05-18-2001).]


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#559305 - 05/19/01 04:24 AM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Silverswift

>>insistance that a 2 mile range on a Hellfire (along with the inferior performance on the other missles) is realistic & acceptable<<

I never said that. The 2 nm number is someone else's. I agree with Steve's numbers.

What I did say was that I was not getting the same lousy results that some others were. I agreed that the max range bar was overly optimistic, and then I tried to explain why that is often the case in RL and then I mentioned that this is also the case in sims that are recognized as being true to RL (F4 and F2).

I have no idea why these other players are not getting the same results as Steve and I. And contrary to the first sentence in your last post, I certainly am not trying to justify it.

Andy

#559306 - 05/19/01 08:18 AM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Of course, Andy, you'll take everything I said out of context. You're very defensive. Perhaps if you ever get to the good side of the river (the Mississippi river of course), I'll buy you a beer and we can get down to the basis of all that.

[This message has been edited by Silverswift (edited 05-19-2001).]


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#559307 - 05/19/01 11:20 AM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Silverswift:
Of course, Andy, you'll take everything I said out of context. You're very defensive.


I just read this thread, and then read it again slowly. Andy hasn't taken anything out of context and isn't being defensive.

Quote:
Manteau, and others states they tried the Brimstones several different ways without comparable success to to their real world counterparts, and I for one believe them.


Of course the folk complaining about their lack of success with the Brimstone should be believed, but I've been getting a very high hit rate on enemy tanks with that weapon and you can believe that too!

Andy and I are being as helpful as we can, within the constraints of our contractual obligation to Rage. Meanwhile Andy has been trying to plug the gap with as much good advice as possible. Many people would consider the insight to real world weapon employment that Andy has to offer, a very valuable contribution to this forum. Perhaps when you actually find time to play the game, we might be able to help you too.

Badboy

#559308 - 05/19/01 02:18 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Forget weapon parameter's............and all that crap!
They do hit home
Steve Hunt made this statement as regard's "why target's *aren't* being knocked out"
"The 2-3 hits per target was also a gameplay decision. We did have 1 shot kills with Brimstones, but the invasion was just to easy to stop - you could kill a whole group of tanks with 10 pulls of the trigger from 10nm away. There were 2 ways round this - 1 more tanks (game too slow) or more hits for a kill."

So there is your answer! Andy's just trying to sell you a body swerve!

A lite sim with a long white bar(a range bar to the uninitiated lol) Firing highly advanced weapon's which need altitude/range/ weather/velocity of carrying platform etc taken into account *which* of course the manual make's no reference to because it *doesn't* NEED TOO except when target is *within* the "range bar" press the trigger and select another target............as per EF2000.
This is the old saying "Can't baffle them with science? Then dazzle them with bull****!" lol heard it all now

Tracer



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"Flying is the second hardest thing known to man.........the first is landing!"

#559309 - 05/19/01 06:01 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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WOW! Just ribbing Andy! YOu guys are so serious around here!


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#559310 - 05/19/01 06:37 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Silverswift, Tracer...

Yes, we are serious here at SimHQ. We set this forum up to help players with the game...not to provide an outlet for anyone to blow off steam.

Those that feel the need to be overtly negative or insulting to others can surely find somewhere else to post their comments. Just not here, please. The folks that come here for info don't have the time for trashtalk.

I've said before that folks can either be part of the solution or part of the problem. Recently, some of the posts are getting too close to the latter.

If someone has somethng positive to contribute, then great! We want to hear it. If someone has a problem that they need help with, then we want to hear that too. Maybe we can help. But, if all someone wants to do is to rant on about an issue that has already been addressed, then I'm going to pull the plug on them.

Andy

#559311 - 05/20/01 05:09 AM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Outstanding, see yas!


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#559312 - 05/20/01 08:15 AM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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But Andy...

In another thread you posted some stuff on how 'dynamic launch zones' can effect things and how, in Vietnam, both targets and pilots broke the rules with results that made little sense in light of the 'known statistics'.

Move A Little Shake A Little.

IMO, this does not apply here.

First, because Brimstone will run from 12 to 32km, based on altitude and Mach. Dynamic energy states being plusses as much as minus'.

Therefore the 'outer range' bar for the system is OFF. Not by too much. But by way too darn little.

What's more, in a 'typical' (Helo Hellfire) launch, the 'highest' long-loft takes only _15 seconds_ total flight time, to 8km.

If a tank 'runs away', at 50mph, from this almost-terminal _inner launch zone_ on Brimstone; it will do 73.3fps for about 7 seconds until the Brimstone can start to see it.

That's about 513.3ft total displacement. A miniscule fractional displacement from the base TLE or max-range footprint, no matter which direction it 'breaks' to.

And Brimstone, unlike AGM-114, has a _2 Way_ datalink and a fully capable LOAL independent mode with over-LOS signature memory instead of simple 'RCS' lockon.

Which means that, more like AMRAAM than Maverick, it should be able to have it's seeker post launch cued to a specific point within the overall target field and say "Aha! Gott'im!" as it /confirms/ the new update on handoff. Possibly even as a type-match.

So the question becomes...

How do you explain away missiles which should be able to fire from 'max range' with no problem and hit a target which cannot effectively 'leave the envelope' -or- the FOV in the mean A _or_ E pol TOF?

When you make drop hints on how the $trategy Guide 'esplanes everything Lucy' based on such a faulty game model, it is frustrating to those of us who want to know why it is broken, NOW, not why it is 'justified' 20 dollars and a month-after-campaign-finish later.


Kurt Plummer

#559313 - 05/20/01 10:23 AM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurt Plummer:

When you make drop hints on how the $trategy Guide 'esplanes everything Lucy' based on such a faulty game model, it is frustrating to those of us who want to know why it is broken, NOW, not why it is 'justified' 20 dollars and a month-after-campaign-finish later.


I'm looking forward to a strategy guide, but I'm damn glad you are not writing it, you have the worst damn case of verbal diarrhoea I've ever seen!!

Prune

#559314 - 05/20/01 01:50 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Hi Kurt

Thanks for that info. I'm not sure I understood all of it, however. Here are some things that are unclear.

>>In another thread you posted...pilots broke the rules with results that made little sense in light of the 'known statistics'.<<

That's sorta right. In Vietnam, we didn't 'break the rules' in the sense of deliberately doing so. Instead, pilots fired out of parameters for two reasons:

1. They didn't know what the parameters were in a maneuvering environment.

2. Existing documentation did not explain dynamic launch zones. Data was maunfacturer specs that was highly optimistic and based on best case situations. As a result, fighter avionics displayed those optimistic parameters...and the pilots believed them.

In any case, as someone has pointed out, that was then, that was real life, and so what?

The "so what' was my suggestion that the reason for the poor weapon performance that some were reporting may have been the result of such things.

My point was to suggest that the same thing could be happening in this game...as it has in every other sim to date. Players do fire out of parameters...and the documentation has been very optimistic.

That's why strategy guides such as SimTech's Official EF2000 Strategy Guide have attempted to provide additional info to improve hit Pk. This guide, for example, suggests that a nominal AMRAAM shot may be as little as 25% of the stated range and that the nominal range for the AIM-9M is as little as less than 50% of the stated range (see p124-125).

I realize now that my initial comments about not releasing what Leon and I knew about weapons employment sounded a bit self-serving. I'm sorry about that. I was not trying to be coy...I was joking about not giving away the store. In light of the frustration that some were experiencing, poor joke, I suppose. In any case, the cat is out of the bag. Double pickle at 4 nm should solve the Brimstone problem.

>>Brimstone will run from 12 to 32km, based on altitude and Mach<<

>>...'highest' long-loft takes only _15 seconds_ total flight time, to 8km.<<

>>it should be able to have it's seeker post launch cued to a specific point within the overall target field<<

I'd like to read more on this. What is your source?

>>How do you explain away missiles which should be able to fire from 'max range' with no problem<<

First of all, KP (and with all the reading you do, you should know this), nothing hits at max range with 'no problem'. Pk is always less at max range...that's why there is such a thing as the 'heart of the envelope'.

I didn't make this game, so I can't explain anything. I can suggest possibilities, however...and, in this case, I did...and have done so again.

>>...faulty game model...why it is broken...<<

It's not faulty or broken. It does exactly what the programmers designed it to do.

Should Rage redo the range bar to show a value closer to 'heart of the envelope'? Perhaps...if so, it will be a first for sims.

The hit Pk is much a function of game play programming meant to keep the action at a tense level. Should Rage 'dumb' it down a bit to allow more of a 'shooting fish in a barrel'? Again maybe. Such reprogramming may even be more in tune with current and projected RL multiple launch capabilities. If Rage does so, will you be here to defend it from the inevitable outcry against 'arcade weapon modeling' and 'Deer Hunter scenarios'?

I hope so.

Andy

#559315 - 05/20/01 02:35 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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*If* Rage did improve the chances of a first hit-kill(rather than the current 2-3 hit's *per* target) and the fear's of an arcade shooter began to materialise.

Surely then it would be obvious to improve the effectiveness of the SAM's and *most certainly* their launch range's upon you?

Look at F4's for eg.

Even in EF2000 you were engaged by the time your ALARM's got a lock-on.
In EFT you can fly over airfield's surrounded by at least 3 SAM site's and all that will engage you will be the AAA site's on the *odd* occasion a SAM will launch.

I loved flying low and popping up to launch a fire and forget ALARM watching it zoom up to altitude and hang by parachute trying to detect a SAM site

I think there is *many* way's around this problem for EFT which is going beyond the lite sim that it is *meant* to be?

If someone is playing EFT or this as there first flight sim it's going to seriously piss the "new user" if we're already into launch parameter's as a game problem!

EF2000 was very simple for a new user, it had audible cues,visual cues on the HUD and a simple (exact same) Range Bar as in EFT.

If EFT is going "all heavy" with weapon parameter's then it need's to get off the fence and decide what it want's to be for the new user (which is what this is supposed to be attracting right? being marketed as a lite sim) It's defeating the purpose if a friend of mine has to learn all about weapon parameters *instead* of using the intended Range Bar............?

Lite sim or hardcore what is it trying to be?

If my mate(who hasn't flown a fsim) phones me and asks why his weapon's are not hitting -on the recomendation that this is a "fun lite sim"- when all his launches are within the Range Bar............well there's no point him hanging onto it is there?

he'll just have to go and get a refund (he doesn't want a weapon lecture and isn't interested.)
The dynamic campaign he can handle but it's too demoralising if he fire's and they miss/hit and the target doesn't blow up!

Jesus he's just getting used to flying the thing and already the game is punishing him!

This "difficulty" setting could have been easily implemented into the option screen for user's like him?
Difficulty settings:
Setting 1)=1 Brimstone=one kill
" 2)=2 Brimstone's=one kill
" 3)=3 Brimstone's=one kill

Tracer

------------------
"Flying is the second hardest thing known to man.........the first is landing!"

#559316 - 05/20/01 03:55 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
>>As for Mavericks...I have some experience with these in RL. Firing range depends greatly on target contrast, especially for the TV version. In Europe, because of target size (tank) and background lighting conditions, we were lucky to even see a tank outside of 2-3 nm. By the time we got pointed at it, locked it up in the Mav MFD, and then shot, we were many times inside one mile.

IR Mavericks in Desert Storm were the exception to the rule. No enemy air to worry about allowed Hogs to patrol at medium altitudes. The desert provided an excellent IR contrast...the Iraqis could be 'seen' on the IR Maverick MFD for miles further than the pilot could visually see them. He just flew at the target until in range...then he fired. It was as close to 'fish in a barrel' shooting as we have seen in war. This is definitely not a Typhoon environment.


I think it is a great difference on Europe and Europe. Iceland is really not more than a pice of Tundra. Not much to hide tanks and stuff behind (If I recall correctly there aren't even forrests on the Island). I really don't see why the barren land of Iceland would be much different from a desert. The exausts from a Tank would probably be easier to spot with IIR in that environment than in a hot desert. Less background noise.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tracer[formerly of CS]:...
Steve Hunt made this statement as regard's "why target's *aren't* being knocked out"
"The 2-3 hits per target was also a gameplay decision. We did have 1 shot kills with Brimstones, but the invasion was just to easy to stop - you could kill a whole group of tanks with 10 pulls of the trigger from 10nm away. There were 2 ways round this - 1 more tanks (game too slow) or more hits for a kill."

That is a reasonable thing to do but IMHO I think that they could have removed the Brimstones and added Mavericks instead. As it is a much larger missile and then we wouldn't be able to carry 18 missiles for dealing with ground threats, but they would kill in one.

[This message has been edited by Cain (edited 05-20-2001).]

#559317 - 05/20/01 04:16 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Cain

No doubt that Iceland does not look like Germany. My point was to show that outside factors impact employment conditions...manufacturer specs (which are optimistic, 'best case' values) do not tell the whole story.

You may be mistaken regarding IIR Mavericks. Don't confuse this guidance technique with A2A missile IR concepts. The IIR Maverick is not looking for engine exhaust heat. The sensor is detecting IR energy contrast in a larger scale...as in cool object against a 'warmer' background...or vice versa.

In Iraq, the Iraqi tanks retained heat after dark and became 'warmer' than the surrounding desert. The IIR Maverick seeker could detect this difference. The missile launched on the tank as an object, rather than its exhaust.

Andy

#559318 - 05/20/01 07:44 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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Steve,

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hunt:
Hi,

Okay - here's a little insite into how the Brimstone works:
Fire weapon - takes on velocity of plane:
8 seconds of burn and tracking on target
12 seconds of tracking on target (no burn)
18 seconds of freefall.

Hope this helps,

Steve


Sorry, am I misunderstanding here or are you saying that Brimstone does not have terminal guidance? If that's true, what other weapons are modelled this way?



------------------
Mike Rovardi
BAE Systems Warton
Please note opinions expressed in my posts are my own and not those of my employer

#559319 - 05/20/01 08:18 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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Andy:
Point taken, I mixed the concepts... But if I understand you correctly, I guess you agree with the fact that the environments on Iceland and in a desert are quite similar as both scenery are so barren.

Best Regards - Cain

#559320 - 05/20/01 08:33 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Cain

I certainly do. I flew in there once, years ago. My recollection is of a rugged and relatively stark landscape...few trees, lots of rock! Any place that still has glaciers on it is a long way from Florida!

Andy

#559321 - 05/20/01 10:52 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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Andy,

In dire fear of the 'Cut and Paste' Police:

BRIMSTONE RANGES
http://www.eurofighter.pso-online.com/common/AG/brimstone.html

and here-

http://eurosatory.janes.com/day2_brimstone.shtml

12 to 32km. Where 12 is the _inner_ 'maximum range' boundary and so should be (as I said) -easily reachable- from a 400 knot launch.

HELLFIRE RANGES AND LOFT PROFILES
8-9km

http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jalw/jalw001013_1_n.shtml

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/agm-114.htm

and-

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/hellfire-trajectory2.gif

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/hellfire-trajectory4.gif

15 seconds total loft 'delay' to 8.

Now back to targeting. The above makes clear that it is NOT 'terminal cheetah chase' energy vs. a 'maneuvering target' that counts (because the new generation autopilot ensures a constant dive factor, steep trajectory graze, if nothing else).

But rather it is the _target lane assignments_ where, if the seeker misses the lane because the tank turns left 90` from expected along-vector positioning, that AFV -might- just slip out from the FOV window on acquisition.

Maybe.

This is both the evile corruption and the enlightened redemption of the 'gameable' systems design that RAGE COULD have incorporated.

Forgeting RL, to make it all work, you SHOULD be able to fire in one of three modes, each with a basic capability reasoning for weapons employment:

1. DIRECT.
Targeting Pod or even (if yer schtoopid) 'HUD Marker' LOS.

Minimum range 1.25nm (@ 400 knots, it's about 500m from a helo) for _each_ 40` offbore. On a missile that can maneuver at 10-12G, this means you don't come over the hilltop and fire at a target at 2:30, 2,000ft, 'sudden acquistion' downrange.

Indeed such is Very Dangerous against micro _camouflaged_ targets because the range is shorter for you and pol 'faster' (M3+ SAM) for them than either pilot parallax distortion or weapon aeros can compensate.

There are films of centerline mounted cameras aboard Jaguars showing a flighttrack _right over_ Rapier batteries, in the middle of an open field with NO camouflage. And the pilots didn't see them until after the flight debrief.

So.... A _TIALD_ should also be made available so that you can point-click assign single rounds from a more realistic value of 5-6nm slant-out and as long as it takes to sort hulks from decoys and real targets (without necessarily pointing the nose on).

In this mode, the shooter should be able to snipe with almost 100% LOBL lane cued certainty but only after manually switching between each target pointing index (an INS memory mode recall storeage of at least four 'live ones' would be nice...).

2. LOFT-Autono
7-8nm max from lolo, depending on parent boost. Given a FAC or an HRM target lane designate and INS parent shooter approach to same, you can fire -before- you come over that hill, breaking off immediately after.

At which point the weapon is on it's 'last known target position' own with no update and also _NO PARENT LOS CROSS REQUIRED_.

Maximum Protection Girls.

But also a lot of random-torpedo-spread misses. Soak up a few of those triplet rails.

3. LOFT-Command
Fire X number of weapons on a time lag. Have them 'fall into' an orbitting offset hold and as each weapon comes through it's engagement lane turn, hand off from the previous weapons communicated impact coordinate to a NEW target.

This gives you the maximum weapons range point (if not 17nm then say at least 12 or so) because the missiles can be fired from high altitude and as much as Mach 1.1 release speeds (again the new autopilot) through a dumb midcourse.

And as the Brimstones hit seeker handoff, they are _updated_, to a current target location and vector. Because that's what '2 Way Datalink' means.

The penalty being a very long delay of pointing the exposed and emitting airframe at a target area (almost like SARH) possibly defended by Big-SAM and the need for a very highly capable A/G radar mode to HRM 'break out' (discriminate between) and GMTI overlay upon-scene any moving targets.

Depending on the roadmarch vs. battlefield vehicle spacing and absolute range, GMTI can look like a solid wormtrail and and shooting 'at anything that moves' may still not have sufficient centimeter wave discrete angular separations to adequately separate missile shots (though obviously if something bloomed out and then stopped, it would leave any other 'movers' more eligible).

Again so that you again might get at least a -few- 'mixed bag' shots as would be multi-vehicle obvious to a shorter wavelength:range ratio'd FLIR.

The alternative to which is /occasional/ FAC presence where a laserranger+GPS+modem= 'shootlist' handoff comes from a closer (ground or helo or drone) targeting agency giving updated target locations which are simply mailman relayed onto the weapons from the player (transparent).

As others have pointed out, this is less Maverick than AMRAAM (or indeed Wasp) and such is why I found your descriptions to be a little weird.

Btw. Absent the datalink, Penguin works exactly the same way. Get a close-FAC or high altitude grazed radar target geometry 'hitlist' and then send the weapon out to attack.

The neat thing being that if the target is buried in a Fjord, you can have the weapon 'turn left and hit the third hotspot down the alley, or the fourth if #3 is already burning'.

And the weapon is smart enough and passive enough to thread the needle in doing exactly that.

The difference being ships tend to shoot back with guns that can hit AShM and can make both smoke and launch flares or floater decoys as well as using ECM to 'jam' both shooter and shot.

But they are otherwise NO faster or more 'evasive' than a ground target.

-OTHER GAMEPLAY OPTIONS-
To resolve 'arcade' weapon success rates which is what have in fact been happening, since Desert Storm was advertised as 'the first CNN video game war'.

LOGISTICS
Good Idea, wrong direction. Limited Bombs vs. Limited Planes and a LOT of Pilots. Skew towards the airframes. The whole /game/ 'goes south' on the notion that there is-

1. Time to bring in more gear but no pilots. Hogwash. Men are the easiest thing to transport in war. A tent, a radio, a pallet of MRE's, a Space Heater to 'cook' them on and a portapotty when done and you're set to pop, even in Iceland. In this case, you wouldn't care about pilots because you might have eighteen of them. But you would care a damn lot about your _six planes_ because even a 1.5:1 manning ratio means 'expensive infantry!' when you run out of jets. Would totally alter the simlite viewpoint of the mission stories that I read here where people seem to like wading into a missile fight gunzo or laying down CBU over an airfield.

2. Unlimited Assets.
Planes cost more than pilots. They 'last longer' in terms of daily sortie rates but are effectively irreplaceable once lost on manufacturing as well as deployment lag.

They are NOT 'easy to deliver' in a combat-effective supported manner but rather come with a whole C-141 sized baggage train of other-men and heavy hardware for support.
Hell, just to /launch/ the typical section flight requires a semi truck worth of gas.

The Russians in Clancy's rendition of this scenario won because there were very few Eagles at Keflavik and they had no real base to return to after a hard fight well North of the island.

Where are all these support airframes coming from that players can just throw away?

3. No Russian Interdict.
I find it incredibly naive to think the Russians wouldn't object, seriously, WELL (1,000nm or more) out to sea, to any Allied resupply efforts.

This is what _large_ Fighter aircraft like the Su-27/35 and even S.37 are intended for.

Not Red Baronsky 'dogfighting' but carrying a missile payload to a point where you least expect and can least afford to engage them from. And assassinating them enroute.

And Iceland is a Mountain Range stuck in Very Deep Blue. That means that it is easier to flat-horizon-over-water catch your targets than to try to run operations over a craggy interior.

Again, Clancy seems to have 'pointed this out' when his MiG-29's got repeatedly bushwacked where MiG-31's never would have been, overland.

So... Dump all the 'how did they get here?' joy toy other airframes (and their separate tails) and make us fight, as Clancy did, with a strictly limited CAP force in a back of beyond nobody can reach.

But cheat the storyline (on our way to Goose Bay!) just enough to include a large allotment of smart weapons that permit you to offset prized Typhoon numbers against kills.

Never happen? Unwilling to lose all your other pretty Harrier/JAS throwaway dancing partners?

Well, then maybe you shouldn't dwarf-scream 'De Pain!, oh De Pain!' when the Mr. O-Roarke factor steps so blatantly out to welcome you to RAGE's 'Fantasy Iceland' campaign.

MASKIROVKA, POST MILLENIUM STYLE.
Camouflage, Active Shoodown, Decoys+CM, and _AMBUSH_.

To steal a phrase: "The Russian Army don't take a dump without a deception plan son..."

And this starts with the realization that ONLY a fool tries to defend a FIXED target, point-LOS outwards, from a dynamic airframe range advantagement which adds as much as 40% more LOS travel to anything it shoots via forward airspeed.

Instead, you create _deliberate_ movement attractors around Axes of Advance (AA) artery traffic 'seems likely' zones and place mobile SAMs _out from under_ the expected approach lanes.

These can be MANPADS teams shuffled around by helicopter (i.e. know what to look for and you're not surprised).

Individual, preemplaced, CADWS vehicles whose less-than-Brimstone DLOS ranges are not so disadvantaged when they fire right under your belly, 10nm out (route around predictable and/or land vehicle accessible approaches or you will be gutshot).

Or they can be exotics like the S-400 which will fly a loft-LOAL trajectory of it's own, to as much as 175km, before independant acquistion.

SA-15 TOR, in it's 'projected' active radar version, can shoot down Hellfire class ATGM using TVM-to-handoff terminal correction.

Shtora and Arena/Drozhd type systems should protect most tanks by the 2015 timeframe. The Russians especially having no illusions like we do of operating under a 'Total Air Supremacy Umbrella'.

Shtora is nothing but conventional smoke grenade mortars cued by a LWR with turret-slew return as an option on groundfired weapons. For MMW defense the grenades could be 'Metal-White' (anti MMW, ala U.S. Coyote).

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m56.htm

Arena/Drozhd uses an active MMW radar mast of it's own to cue slightly more timed-proximity sophisticated defensive rockets that fragment shower the incoming flight path of the 70-700m/sec threat weapons.

Probably only about a 30% too-intercept rating against a steep-vertical, highly supersonic, Brimstone diver attack but would at least soak /some/ of your pylon shots.

In this case, it's 'hit or miss, the missile', not the tank.

Because the AGM-114F that the Brimstone is based on will single-impact kill any armored vehicle on the planet.

Dirty Tricks. Small robot vehicles about the size of say a golf cart but with variable 'signature mimic' shelltops, visual, IR and MMW enhanced.

REALLY GOOD camouflage netting and indeed box-overlays to basically mask-out (shell game) the target outlines altogether. You may see it but shooting it requires 'firing blanks' at potentially empty boxes. We have come a long way since the Iraqi camouflage systems in fact added to a Maverickable signature with trapped heat.

Back in the 80's, one U.S. Army combat team spent the better part of a morning blowing up a European hilltop with every form of death known to man, only to discover on 'capturing' this feature that they had wasted 4 hours reducing an obstacle made up of blowup doll silouhettes and commo tapes.

Whether 4 hours or 4 minutes, if you expend firepower on -wrong target- rubbish and then advance into the dragons maw thinking you've pulled his teeth, you are in deep and about to bleed. If nothing else you have 'lost the mission' on back to base reloads.

Such maskirovka deception tactics would help the Russian advance, immeasurably, WITHOUT, requiring a dumb-down of the weapons system.

They would also encourage use of Phoenix or Predator or similar UAV or ASTOR (or even civillian SAR helos) for _analysis of movement_ and decoy rejection 'firepower enablement'.


Kurt 'Bitching and Moaning' Plummer


MORE LINKS-
FAS 'How When Why Where To Hide'
http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm90-2/90-2apd.htm

ARENA Active Tank Defense
http://armor.vif2.ru/Tanks/EQP/shtora.html
http://armor.vif2.ru/Tanks/EQP/arena.html
http://armor.vif2.ru/Tanks/EQP/drozd.html

BARRACUDA MMW Rug Smoother
http://www.barracuda.se/files/site/barracuda/radarbild3.jpg
http://www.barracuda.se/files/site/barracuda/radarbild4.jpg

BARRACUDA Is It A Boat Or A Cliff?
http://www.barracuda.se/files/site/barracuda/visualbat2.gif
http://www.barracuda.se/files/site/barracuda/visualbat.gif

BARRACUDA Shell Games
http://www.barracuda.se/files//nir2.jpg
http://www.barracuda.se/files/site/barracuda/Bmsu2.jpg
http://www.barracuda.se/files/site/barracuda/Bmsu3.jpg

Barracuda Snow Blind
http://www.barracuda.se/files/site/barracuda/Uv2.jpg
http://www.barracuda.se/files/site/barracuda/Uv3.jpg

JANES Cool Leopards
http://idr.janes.com/samples/idrsample3.html

#559322 - 05/20/01 11:22 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Somewhere....over the Rainbow
You tell 'em, Kurt.

That stuff is all Greek to me. But it sure looks right on from where I'm sitting. I totally agree with you on this: There's a better way than fudging weps hit percentages and damage profiles. Their hearts were in the right place when they kludged it. But it can be done better. And should be.

Miao, Cat


Miao, Cat
#559323 - 05/20/01 11:52 PM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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Man, Kurt, haven't read any of your posts in ages (last saw you when the USS Combatsim was still afloat) . You sure haven't lost the art of confusing the hell out of everyone.

#559324 - 05/21/01 01:15 AM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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Thanks Cat uhhhh, and I /think/ Red Ant,

I know I blew it on at least the 114'F' designator that should be 'K'. Half asleep there.

But am pretty sure the rest is at least 'close' and pretty much self explanatory if you follow the LINKS.

After all that effort, I'm just waiting on Andy or Scott or Badboy come up to say-

"Wull Shucks, looks we're just gonna have to rewrite all the missile models before we publish the book."

I know it's a dream but hey, it's -my- dream!:-\


KP

#559325 - 05/21/01 02:06 AM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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slightly OT

kurt dude, you have just shown to me what i already knew deep in my heart, you are NOT a troll. you should have started shooting links much earlier, that would have saved you a lot of personal attacks.
schurem out

------------------
I just LUV the smell of napalm in the morning


Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings,
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
#559326 - 05/21/01 03:22 AM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Don't know who Scott is, so I'll say it..

""Wull Shucks, looks we're just gonna have to rewrite all the missile models before we publish the book."

You can go back to your books now.

Andy

#559327 - 05/22/01 01:09 AM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurt Plummer:
But am pretty sure the rest is at least 'close' and pretty much self explanatory if you follow the LINKS.


Hi Kurt,

Lets take a closer look at some of the range data in those links. One of your links says of the Brimstone:

Quote:
Range, km (nm) 32 (17)*

* : Note that all ranges quoted are based on mean figures from various data sources. Actual achievable range will depend on a great number of factors and may be no where near those quoted.


That disclaimer is a significant statement, roughly translated, it means that the author probably has even less confidence in his data than I do

Lets take a look at another link:

Quote:
While the Hellfire missile on which Brimstone is based is understood to have a range of 10km, the autonomous fire-and-forget Brimstone could have a range of at least 12km.


Notice the use of the words "could have" and "is understood to have" the author once again, has not committed, almost certainly because they cant!

Other links state:

Quote:
It is reported that Hellfire 2 can engage targets between 0.5 and 9 km.

The Longbow Hellfire 2 missile is expected to have the same range capability as AGM-114F, with a minimum range of 500 m and maximum range of 9 km.


Once again, use of the words "reported" and "expected" clearly indicate that the authors are not stating that they believe those figures, they are infact making it as clear as they can that they dont know what the actual range is for those weapons.

Also, there is a high probability that those data values derive from sources that have a vested interest in optimism, either for reasons of marketing, or military propaganda.

Without even so much as a firm statement, or any sign of reliable sources using actual test range data, this discussion has at best, the status of weak speculation.

This thread is almost worth watching to see your cheerleaders jumping in the air every time a web link gets posted, but unfortunately, Im too busy to stick around for it

Badboy

#559328 - 05/22/01 01:49 AM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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Bad Boy,

If you wish to insult me, do so independently and directly.

If you wish to call independent posters 'cheerleaders' at least have the balls to name them and indeed /address/ them as individuals, not as mud-proximal drive by victims.

Given the amount of 'prove it', 'cut and paste', 'can't be so but we won't post our own PROOF otherwise' _Bullshit_ I take from you people, I will not allow you to stain others reputations with the same villification that is routinely flung against me.

Other than your 6th grade bully-by-inference mentality, if there is any single proof to your vulnerability it is your simple unwillingness to 'explain away' the trajectory links in the FAS page definitions.

_Helicopter_ fired trajectories, which time out to 8km. 4.34nm, farther than any 'cheerleader' has been able to successfully employ the weapons.

I'm sure that -somewhere- on this board there is someone who can take the basic lift:drag factors for the available weapon dimensions and frontal area, multiply them by total mass:motor mass impulse values on an acceleration curve to Mach 1.7.

And then apply -that- range point to a post burn absolute downrange achievable figure, both from a static and a forward speed=XX knots starting baseline envelope condition.

At sea level, 10K and 20K feet.

As a function of the ability to state, in confidence, the 'possible' ballistic ranges of Brimstone.

They will be LONG.

Since you challenge me to prove everything I say and then conveniently refuse to hold yourself to the same standards, please consider your Own Actions to be in question until you can do better than-

>>
there is a high probability that those data values derive from sources that have a vested interest in optimism...
>>

Prove your own _pessimism_. Where it is clear that you too have a 'vested interest', in not making the $trategy Guide a ju$tification for complete crap 'apparencies' that by designer admission have *deliberately* no 'gameplay' match to the real world consequences of an ability to carry 18 tank kills on a single airframe.

Andy Bush, 'fighter pilot extraordinairre' who dare make unrelated weapons system comparisons because you have in fact _never fired a LOAL Hellfire in your life_.

That goes double for you.


Kurt Plummer

#559329 - 05/22/01 02:08 AM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
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Hey Kurt,

Did anyone ever tell you, You are an asshole!

Tig


Tiger
#559330 - 05/22/01 02:25 AM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurt Plummer:


_Helicopter_ fired trajectories, which time out to 8km. 4.34nm, farther than any 'cheerleader' has been able to successfully employ the weapons.


I get a very high kill rate at a range of 4nm+ in Typhoon. Does that mean that Typhoon is realistic after all?

Quote:
I'm sure that -somewhere- on this board there is someone who can take the basic lift:drag factors for the available weapon dimensions and frontal area, multiply them by total mass:motor mass impulse values on an acceleration curve to Mach 1.7.


The snag is that the lift and drag values for the weapons aren't available, it would just be so much more glorified guess work.

Quote:
As a function of the ability to state, in confidence, the 'possible' ballistic ranges of Brimstone.


I suspect that's all the experts on those web pages have done, worked out "Possible" best guess values, but they all seem to have a different answer

Quote:
They will be LONG.


They will be WRONG.

Prune

#559331 - 05/22/01 02:32 AM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


I should not do this but:

Kurt what is_ this : all _about with _a _drag/factor /of- the square- root- of f**k all got_ to do with _:-anything_ or am I missing_ the _point of your _po/sts.

Please say what you want to say but dont try to be too clever. its going over your head, not ours.

J

#559332 - 05/22/01 03:30 AM Re: THAT is what Typhoon is all about?  
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 5,955
Andy Bush Offline
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Andy Bush  Offline
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Air Combat Forum Moderator

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Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 5,955
St Charles, MO
Whoa Nelly!!

Let's all remember this is just a game...and the point of this forum is to help each other enjoy it.

It doesn't really matter what max range can be found in these contradictory web site references. The only thing that matters is what the game range is. Steve has told us that...around 4 nm, give or take a little. I've found that to be a good number. I can plan an attack, hit the target, and escape without getting shot in return. Doing this is great fun...and I'm not a bit concerned that the RL weapon may be employed differently.

Kurt...sorry your feelings got hurt. Badboy did put a Smiley at the end of his last sentence...usually we take that to mean the writer was just kidding.

As for me, you are absolutely correct. I have never fired a Hellfire. I was an Air Force fighter pilot. I flew jets. The Hellfire (in my career) was an Army missile fired off Army helicopters. I've never flown a helicopter in my life...or wanted to for that matter.

Andy

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