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#559143 - 05/18/01 02:13 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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We have to wait for a strategy guide to learn about weapons parameters?

THAT SUCKS!!!!

I am willing to pay for a strat guide that teaches me how to be a better pilot but.... the basic information I need to use the weapons in this game... such as weapon effective range, should be included in the manual.....

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#559144 - 05/18/01 02:41 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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I think there is a balacne to be found here guys, somewhere between ultra lethal weapons and brimstones than couldnt hit the broadside of a mountain at 2 miles (like the ones we currently have). IMHO this problem with inaccurate A2G weapons is the MAJOR stumbling point for this game and i think 90% of the people here would agree with me, im sure the skilled coders at Rage could fix this problem pretty quickly and EVERYONE would be happier. Also, if somewhat more lethal A2G weaons make tank busting a bit too easy just give them somewhat more leatal SAMs to balance the challenge. We are all starting to get a bit sick of firing off 18 brimstones well within engagement parameters and getting 1 or 2 kills.

#559145 - 05/18/01 02:42 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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This thread is rapidly turning south. I don't want to preach. I just want to encourage you all to not jump to any conclusions that may unnecessarily dampen your enthusiasm for the game.

Check out other manuals...such as Falcon4 or Flanker2. While these are very fine manuals and include a lot of good info, please read the missile parameter sections carefully.

In these, you will not find appreciably more info than you get in Typhoon. Missile engagement envelopes are very dynamic. Max range is max aerodynamic range...the range the weapon can fly. It is not max hit range. That range is often considerably less with tight employment constraints to make matters even more difficult.

Use the range bar in Typhoon as you would the Rmax and Rmin indices in Falcon...ballpark data only.

Andy

#559146 - 05/18/01 03:09 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Hi all,

The brimstones in Typhoon are effective inside about 5-6nm (best at 4 and below, I get almost 100% hits at this range). Although this is less than in real life, it was a design decision based on gameplay. If you have 1 shot kill from 10nm+ the game just turns into an arcade shooter (something that I know may of you detest). By making the player get in closer the games level tension goes through the roof.

The 2-3 hits per target was also a gameplay decision. We did have 1 shot kills with Brimstones, but the invasion was just to easy to stop - you could kill a whole group of tanks with 10 pulls of the trigger from 10nm away. There were 2 ways round this - 1 more tanks (game too slow) or more hits for a kill.

The range bar in the MFD is misleading - that is a fair point and I'll have a look at fixing this in the add-on, or a patch.

By the way, in Kosovo I think NATO hit about 4 tanks and a goat in the whole campaign!

I think that if I changed the weapons to be more effective and have a longer range, the spark would go from the game and you would be end up just pulling the trigger and looking at little explosions in the distance - boring! - again Typhoon is more about experience than realism.

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

Steve

#559147 - 05/18/01 03:17 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Use the range bar in Typhoon as you would the Rmax and Rmin indices in Falcon...ballpark data only.

Andy


This game is rapidly turning South IMO. The only thing keeping it going for me is the excellent Campaign - it might as well be an arcade game otherwise.

There would be no point the RAF purchasing Brimstones in real life if their performance was anything by Typhoon's standards. They have currently purchased Mavericks as a stop gap. As far as I know, these (depending on type) have a range of at least 5 nm.

Why would they get anything that's worse than Mavericks for the future (apart from the fact you can carry three times as many of them).

Cheers,
Manteau

#559148 - 05/18/01 03:21 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hunt:
The range bar in the MFD is misleading - that is a fair point and I'll have a look at fixing this in the add-on, or a patch.


I think a lot of people would appriciate it Steve (Patch) - thanks.

Quote:
I think that if I changed the weapons to be more effective and have a longer range, the spark would go from the game and you would be end up just pulling the trigger and looking at little explosions in the distance - boring! - again Typhoon is more about experience than realism.


I've no problem with that, but having to fly over AAA and sams at close range and sometimes several times to claim a kill is just pushing it IMO.

Cheers,
Manteau

#559149 - 05/18/01 03:29 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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The brimstone is a Hellfire basically right? As far as I am aware... that is a pretty deadly missile.

I am gonna trust the guys at Rage... the sim market is filled with games that attempt to model wepons accuratly but they just suck in the gameplay department. Typhoon is a blast so far and if the Brimstone sucks compared to its RL counterpart but I am having a good time when I am trying to keep my plane in one piece while trying to fire .... so be it!!!!

Get me a server browser and I will be happy!!!!!!

#559150 - 05/18/01 03:33 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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I'm just posting to clarify my position on this.

I'm not saying that the weapons should have a 100% PK at max range - I'm not even saying they should have a 70% PK at medium range (but personally I'd expect it).

But the fact is, that many people here seem to be having to fly very close to targets to get a good kill and the PK at close range seems to be bad.

IMO, the brimstones are no better at hitting stationary targets than iron bombs and cluster bombs - which is strange considering that they're billed as ideal anti armour weapons in the manual.

Steve - I'd recommend that you increase the range and PK of the weapons to more realistic levels, BUT perhaps put some logistical (sp?) limit on the number of the guided munitions we have.

Therefore, we have 32 brimstone missiles at this base today. That GR7 took 12, the next tornado sorte took 12, you're left with the rest - until you get resupplied - use them wisely.

Cheers,
Manteau

#559151 - 05/18/01 03:41 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Thanks, Steve, that's all I needed to hear. I had a feeling that there were gameplay issues involved. I guess it's just frustrating to watch my wingies fire missile after missile and miss. (But then again, this ain't new in the Sim Community )
Still like the game...and I'll probably buy the Strat. Guide, mainly cause I suck at managing pilots (I've had 2 thrown in jail cause their airbase was run-over). I hope that will be covered.

I don't think that this thread has to "go bad", you've just got approach Typhoon from a different angle. It's not a sim...it's more like Wing Commander or X-Wing (both of which I had a blast with)...

-Steve C


"Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."
-Dwight D Eisenhower
#559152 - 05/18/01 03:43 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Hi,

Although you have to be closer than in real life - I find that I can fire hit and turn away without getting my ass shot off - with freefall stuff you have to got right over the top at full pelt!

Cheers,

Steve

#559153 - 05/18/01 03:45 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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"This thread is rapidly turning south."

Andy, just because people are disagreeing with you does not mean the "thread is rapidly turning south."

I think some people here are raising some very good questions.

-Why should consumers buy the game, then have to turn around and buy another manual to tell them how to play it?

-Why is the performance of the A-G weapons so poor? (answered by Steve)

-Why does the game itself mis-represent the employment parameters of the weaponry? (explained somewhat by Steve - needs to be fixed)

#559154 - 05/18/01 04:32 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Fishbed77,

>> Why should consumers buy the game, then have to turn around and buy another manual to tell them how to play it?

You don't have to. I find it a greal deal of fun in sims to find out the correct tactics by myself or the way the AI can be beaten or how the AI reacts. Every sim so far has the weapons modelled differently, so what ? Would be boring for me to read all about it and then just do it in practice and that's it.

The only problem I see is the main target audience of Typhoon, the beginners. I bet there will be some frustration soon, if they most probably fly around lighted up like a christmas tree with their Eurofighter and the manual gets them no clue about this.
So I would have expected at least a simultaneous release of a strategy guide.

Pollux

#559155 - 05/18/01 05:03 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Pollux, that's exactly what I am referring to. The goal of this sim should be to bring new players to the genre (this is the goal, according to Rage). But many circumstances are conspiring against this - initial 3dfx incompatibility (fortunately fixed), poor website (heck, it takes a T1 or higher to effectively view it), questionable US distribution, a manual that tells the player what button to push, but not when to push it, etc.

Yes, a more experienced simmer might be able to crack open a copy of the "2001 Jane's Directory of Radar Guided Air to Ground Munitions Deployment" or whatever if they needed to know how to fire a Brimstone or Penguin. Even then the information would be wrong when applied to Eurofighter Typhoon the game.

I just don't think people should have to pay extra for simple information like this after they have already purchased the game.

#559156 - 05/18/01 05:14 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Posted by Manteau.

"I've tried flying at 30,000 feet 3 miles from target, directly pointing at the target, and I get misses."

Even in RL, you'd by asking for a miss this way. Even if the real Brimstone has a 12 mile range, your 6 miles away vertically & 3 miles away horizontally. 9 miles total, pushing the limit, me thinks.

On the other hand, the following, from Manteau is a very sound suggestion, although I don't know how possible it is (to limit weapons or a specific weapon in the "supply code")using the current campaign engine.

"Steve - I'd recommend that you increase the range and PK of the weapons to more realistic levels, BUT perhaps put some logistical (sp?) limit on the number of the guided munitions we have."

Fishbed77, agree wholeheartedly for these two:

"Andy, just because people are disagreeing with you does not mean the "thread is rapidly turning south."

"-Why should consumers buy the game, then have to turn around and buy another manual to tell them how to play it?" (I would say ANY game, which is all too common these days)

On a different note, Steve says that the weapon parameter scale, at least on the brimstones, is misleading. I say give 'em credit. But, to correct this will be tricky, me thinks. You can change the scale to represent the missle in the the game, or you can change the missle to represent the scale. From what I've read, I think many here would prefer the later. But Steve says it would detract from gameplay and I tend to agree with him, given the goal of EF-T. I think the former suggestion would be the worst; won't appeal to many of yous for the same reason you don't like the current details.



[This message has been edited by Silverswift (edited 05-18-2001).]


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#559157 - 05/18/01 05:36 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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>>Andy, just because people are disagreeing with you does not mean the "thread is rapidly turning south."<<

This discussion has nothing to do with anyone agreeing or disagreeing with anyone else.

Blanket statements have been made that A2G munitions won't hit. This is not the case. The weapons will have an acceptable Pk when employed to best advantage.

And therein lies the heart of the matter...just what exactly is 'to best advantage'?

In Vietnam, we carried missiles that had certain guaranteed launch parameters. Pilots used these parameters in combat...and found that they missed most of the time.

After much wailing and gnashing of the teeth, certain things were found:

1. Max range is a static parameter and usually denotes max aerodynamic range. The fighter avionics was programmed to show this range. This is how the weapon was advertised. The value was accurate and had been demonstrated through tests.

2. Unfortunately, this was not often the case in combat. A small, maneuvering target is different from a static target. Target maneuvers often reduced actual effective range...meaning the missile might still have the legs to fly the distance...it just didn't have the smash to make the end-game hit. Was the advertised range wrong? No. By itself, the statement is accurate, but, to the uninformed, it could be misleading.


3. Not all weapons come out of the factory in perfect condition...nor do they stay that way in daily operations. As a result, no weapon had a perfect one shot absolute guarantee.

4. Lastly, the pilots were screwing up. Wrong switch positions, bad parameters, you name it. Guys were firing willy-nilly at anything that came along and then bitched because they didn't get a kill. In many cases, the problem was theirs, and theirs alone.

As for the Strategy Guide...it is not being produced as a way of adding to the bottom line. While final distribution plans are not yet decided upon, the objective is to have the Guide come in a form that will provide additional value for whatever cost may be attached to it. There is more to this story...I just can't tell you what that is right now.

Try Steve's advice.

Andy

#559158 - 05/18/01 05:48 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Fishbed77,

>>Even then the information would be wrong >>when applied to Eurofighter Typhoon the game.

Yes, but that stands for all sims. Every sim has gameplay decisions, maybe better hidden than in Typhoon.
One example : You can evade AI missiles in almost all sims, although enemy missiles also have no escape zones. Look at Flanker, almost everyone was complaining missiles are too deadly. One could also say : Hey, the clue is not to evade missiles, but to try getting the first shot and avoiding being shot at. If the enemy shoots a missile in its no escape zone, you are dead, bang. Maybe not wise for gameplay reasons, that's why there are now three difficulty settings in Flanker 2.5

Pollux

#559159 - 05/18/01 05:54 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Manteau's suggestion makes a lot more sense, and probably wouldn't be that hard to implement.

What is the point of even having the guided missiles if you have to get that close to hit with them? As I understand it, the whole raison d'etre for such weapons is as a standoff weapon.

Quote:
Originally posted by Manteau:
I'm just posting to clarify my position on this.

I'm not saying that the weapons should have a 100% PK at max range - I'm not even saying they should have a 70% PK at medium range (but personally I'd expect it).

But the fact is, that many people here seem to be having to fly very close to targets to get a good kill and the PK at close range seems to be bad.

IMO, the brimstones are no better at hitting stationary targets than iron bombs and cluster bombs - which is strange considering that they're billed as ideal anti armour weapons in the manual.

Steve - I'd recommend that you increase the range and PK of the weapons to more realistic levels, BUT perhaps put some logistical (sp?) limit on the number of the guided munitions we have.

Therefore, we have 32 brimstone missiles at this base today. That GR7 took 12, the next tornado sorte took 12, you're left with the rest - until you get resupplied - use them wisely.

Cheers,
Manteau

#559160 - 05/18/01 05:55 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Andy,

Umm, guided weapons have come a long way since Vietnam.

Typhoon takes place in 2015.

I read that Maverick missiles had a PK ratio of %84 in the Gulf War.

That was ten years ago now.

[This message has been edited by Fishbed77 (edited 05-18-2001).]

#559161 - 05/18/01 06:22 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Damn, the gulf was ...ten years ago! So that makes my age.......WOW! At anyrate, thanks to the Jackasses at Software first, I still haven't received my copy yet. But let me tell you how I look at sims. Every sim is a different interpretation of the truth. Not that one is worst than the other (sims here, not games like Top Gun), just different. Take the early Spit in EAW vs. the same in BoB (or MFDs in LB2 vs. EECH). They both fly completely different. One sim models this effect & one models that effect. Or one or the other doesn't model whatever. They both, to me, are very convincing depictions of the real thing, with some concessions made for gameplay or development issues. So which is better. Me for one, like the MFDs in LB2, and the Spits of EAW. I think the MFDs are more accurate to RL & the Spits in EAW are more fun to fly. But just because that's what I think, doesn't make it so. Nor does it diminish my enjoyment of EECH or BoB (when it doesn't crash). And you can make the same comparisons to JSH/DISH, what have you. Or to what EF-T is vs. what you expect it to be. Just because something isn't a real as you think it should be, shouldn't diminish your enjoyment of it, if it has alot of other redeeming qualities. On the other hand, if the Brimstones seriously detract from your experience. Then I would say; what do you expect? EF-T was never meant to model things in absolutely realistic terms.


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#559162 - 05/18/01 07:47 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Andy, Steve, we arent here to bitch and moan, we just see it that if this one small area of the game was slightly tweaked it would make this otherwise excellent game much less frustrating.

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