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#559123 - 05/17/01 04:17 PM Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Just a quick question to Steve on the apparent "inaccuracy" of some of the weapons in the game.

For example, I have yet to get a Brimstone to hit a target at over 4 nm - they just either hit the ground or drop into the sea - regardless of the height they're launched at.

I believe in real life (like the hellfire missile) they have a range of around 9 nm.

The same goes for the Penguins and the Meteors - the long range missiles will be BVRAAM - and the specs I've seen on websites and through tech info indicate that the long range missile will have a range in excess of 60 nm - I haven't managed to hit anything with them over 27 nm.

If I'm doing something wrong targeting or launch-wise, please tell me, but otherwise, I think that the weapons should be relatively realistic.

Cheers,
Manteau

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#559124 - 05/17/01 04:55 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Hi Manteau,
I've got this exact problem as well. I have purposely flown within 2miles over an airfield about 6,oooft and pointed the nose down and launched 6 brimstone's at 6 AAA.
Guess what.................yep, None hit!

They all had a clear path to the target's
but none hit.
All impacted about 40ft infront of the AAA.

I had to try and knock-out an advancing column of T-90's about 6 using Brim's and out of six launches i hit 1.........

So i tried another sortie with ALARM's and it happened again 4 launches.........*zero* hit's(all launches were about half-way along the range bar)

"The same goes for the Penguins and the Meteors - the long range missiles will be BVRAAM - and the specs I've seen on websites and through tech info indicate that the long range missile will have a range in excess of 60 nm - I haven't managed to hit anything with them over 27 nm."

Yep i haven't hit much with the Long Medium /Range Meteor's ,they are spoofed probably on average 8 times out of 10 launches. Regardless of what range you launch at and also regardless of angle of attack.
I have attacked at high altitude above the target,nose on,rear on, you name it i have tried it!
The only weapon that bring's much success is the ASRAAM-espec launched about 2 miles from target.

My personal opinion is that the weapon's have been "dumbned down" otherwise you would wipe out the Russian invader's far too easily and quickly?

If you watch the F9 "SmartView", you will also see various attack's from Harrier's etc using CRV-7's/Brim's and ALARM's and the impact of these weapon's is *alway's* over the target or infront of it!-i have yet to see ground attack weapon's on smartcam *actualy* hitting anything

That's after playing into day2 and watching countless hour's of F9 footage.

*OR* is it deliberate to keep us on our toe's? and make it harder??

still, i would like to have some success with weapon's...... Please Steve...

Tracer


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[This message has been edited by Tracer[formerly of CS] (edited 05-17-2001).]

#559125 - 05/17/01 04:59 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Yeah - I've had to fly *directly* over tanks and sams in order to kill them with brimstones. I might as well use cluster bombs.

Even when I do get a direct hit, often nothing happens - the AAA keep firing or something.

I recon they've dumbed (sp?) down the weapons as well.

Cheers,
Manteau

#559126 - 05/17/01 05:56 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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I agree completely.
If I have one gripe (as opposed to minor irritation) with Typhoon it is this. I too have found that the only weapon that hits with any regularity is the ASRAAM. I've started taking 6 of them out all the time. If I had a choice I'd ideally like to hang back and Meteor their backsides before deciding whether to commit to a dogfight.
I fully understand that stuff misses but this is a bit excessive I reckon.

Cheers

#559127 - 05/17/01 06:37 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Whooo, 9 miles!? Try 5 miles, for the current Hellfire. And that 5 miles is range only. The Pk at that range is probably right next to zero. I could see the current Hellfire going a little longer given the altitude advantage of a fixed wing bird, but 9 miles is stretching it, me thinks. Still, with any missle, at it's extreme range, the Pk goes down to almost 0% on a moving target. Look at the AIM-54. It has a range of 126 miles. What do you think it can hit at that range? A drone of course, flying straigt, slow, and level. The real range for the Phoenix is probably closer to 40 miles (with about a 75%pk on a fighter), maybe 75-90 for a TU-160 (with about a 50% Pk) or something like that. Still pretty good. A 50 caliber round will go about 4 miles. Effective up to about 2 miles (the accuaracy at that range is the bitch though) At 3.99 miles, you can catch it with a baseball glove.

[This message has been edited by Silverswift (edited 05-17-2001).]


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#559128 - 05/17/01 07:17 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Silverswift, i'm *within* 2 mile's of the target(visual in the game and it's still missing.........short of flying the bird into the target(s)! it's quite depressing watching them all miss

Tracer

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#559129 - 05/17/01 08:15 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Silverswift:
Whooo, 9 miles!? Try 5 miles, for the current Hellfire. And that 5 miles is range only. The Pk at that range is probably right next to zero


http://eurosatory.janes.com/day2_brimstone.shtml

According to Janes, the hellfire has a range of 8 nm, and the Brimstone should have a range of 10 nm.

Cheers,
Manteau

#559130 - 05/17/01 09:34 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Cheers! I got Jane's saying 8000m for the AGM-114 A-C variants, the Lasers. 'bout 5 miles. But I read the link, just as in EF-T, the radar ones probably got an edge. (Still me thinks 10 miles for the current versions is stretching it. They just don't have enough fuel. But you can't argue with Jane's). However, I can see being dissappointed about a 2 miles range off a fixed wing from altitude.

[This message has been edited by Silverswift (edited 05-17-2001).]


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#559131 - 05/17/01 09:45 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Silverswift:
Cheers! I got Jane's saying 8000m for the AGM-114 A-C variants, the Lasers. 'bout 5 miles. But I read the link, just as in EF-T, the radar ones probably got an edge. (Still me thinks 10 miles for the current versions is stretching it. They just don't have enough fuel. But you can't argue with Jane's). However, I can see being dissappointed about a 2 miles range off a fixed wing from altitude.


precisely - I don't really care either way - 5 miles would be good in Typhoon, as it's currently less than 2 miles.

Cheers,
Manteau

#559132 - 05/18/01 01:24 AM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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keep working at it! The Brimstone is a good weapon...just don't fire it out of parameters.

Andy

#559133 - 05/18/01 08:09 AM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
keep working at it! The Brimstone is a good weapon...just don't fire it out of parameters.

Andy


Well what are the parameters?

I'm at around 6,000 feet behind the hovercrafts around 5 nm away, and they ALL fall into the sea - the same from wingmen...

Cheers,
Manteau

#559134 - 05/18/01 08:47 AM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Yeah..I'd like to know that too. It sux having to get THIS close to tanks (with Brimstones) that will open fire on on in a blink of an eye.

I fire a bunch of them at 3 tanks and destroy one if I'm lucky. This of course means I have to turn around for another shot and risk getting shredded to bits.

[This message has been edited by Uroboros (edited 05-18-2001).]

#559135 - 05/18/01 01:31 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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hehehe...

Sorry, on this I've said about all that I'm going to at this point! The Strategy Guide will cover this and will include approach tactics. If Leon and I told all now, what good would the Guide do?

We can't give away for free something that Rage is paying us for! In any case, my objective was to blunt some of the criticism that I thought was not quite fair.

For certain, the game AI is not going to make weapons delivery like 'shooting fish in a barrel'. This isn't the way it is in RL, and Typhoon should be no different.

Andy

#559136 - 05/18/01 01:38 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
hehehe...

Sorry, on this I've said about all that I'm going to at this point! The Strategy Guide will cover this and will include approach tactics. If Leon and I told all now, what good would the Guide do?

We can't give away for free something that Rage is paying us for! In any case, my objective was to blunt some of the criticism that I thought was not quite fair.

For certain, the game AI is not going to make weapons delivery like 'shooting fish in a barrel'. This isn't the way it is in RL, and Typhoon should be no different.

Andy


Then bring that damn guide on; will you?!!!

But seriously..if you can give us useful vital info..I'll pay for it.

#559137 - 05/18/01 01:48 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
hehehe...

Sorry, on this I've said about all that I'm going to at this point! The Strategy Guide will cover this and will include approach tactics. If Leon and I told all now, what good would the Guide do?

We can't give away for free something that Rage is paying us for! In any case, my objective was to blunt some of the criticism that I thought was not quite fair.

For certain, the game AI is not going to make weapons delivery like 'shooting fish in a barrel'. This isn't the way it is in RL, and Typhoon should be no different.

Andy


I've no problem with that - but I have got a problem with the range bar in Typhoon being completely inaccurate, and the manual giving no details on how to fire the weapons.

The original EF2000 manual was amazing - it gave you all the info you needed. The Typhoon manaul just gives you vague info on each weapon - the only range given is for the ASRAAM.

I also don't think we should have to purchase a Strategy Guide just to know how to use the weapons - Rage are making a big point of how easy and accessible Typhoon is - I'm not saying that every weapon fired should hit its target, but the current situation is rediculous.

Cheers,
Manteau

#559138 - 05/18/01 01:54 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Andy, the tank's/AAA are *opening fire on me* i'm that close!

The Brim's/ALARM's are *still* thunking into the scenery!

Your telling me they would send a xxx million pound plane down the barrel of a couple of a hundred thousand pound AAA within 2 miles and it would still miss..........BUT the AAA doesn't............hmmmmm

Yout talking bull Andy -sorry but your quote "For certain, the game AI is not going to make weapons delivery like 'shooting fish in a barrel'. This isn't the way it is in RL, and Typhoon should be no different." doesn't wash when i *can't* hit a NON-MOVING target within 2miles clear visibility at altitude.......................this needs fixed!
It's meant to be a lite sim where the player has fun? This is seriously dampening the game play and take's the crap out of the Typhoon as a weapon's platform...if we go along the RL road???

Just because Iceland is *smaller* and therefore can't hold a large amount of ground/air unit's the AI has certainly been dumbed down so that the (more astute) player doesn't wipe out the threat's before it materialises.

I fly alway's with a "mix" of weapon's for that reason. *IF* those weapon's that i had fired hit home i would have captured back territory that i had lost and also stopped a helluva lot of advancing unit's that had captured my bases.....but as it is well over 90% of my ordnance has missed. Is that RL Andy? Where 8 out of 10 Long Range Meteor Launche's miss??

Tweak it at least a small amount Rage?

Tracer

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#559139 - 05/18/01 01:57 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Well, I don't want to sound snotty, but we should not have to pay extra to know how to shoot the friggen weapons.

#559140 - 05/18/01 02:02 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Fishbed77:
Well, I don't want to sound snotty, but we should not have to pay extra to know how to shoot the friggen weapons.


Yeah - my points exactly - Sorry Andy, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to get hold of all the info I can in terms of tips on Typhoon (I won't use other sources) and make them available for FREE.

You want us to purchase guides that *might* tell us we have to get within 2 nm of a target with a Brimstone in order to kill it when it is *blatently* obvious that Brimstones in real life have a range of at least 7 nm.

Nice one.

Cheers,
Manteau

[This message has been edited by Manteau (edited 05-18-2001).]

#559141 - 05/18/01 02:04 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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>>I also don't think we should have to purchase a Strategy Guide just to know how to use the weapons - Rage are making a big point of how easy and accessible Typhoon is - I'm not saying that every weapon fired should hit its target, but the current situation is rediculous.<<

I know it can be frustrating to not hit a target...it was in RL too! In Typhoon, you are not going to get a 100% Pk on every shot. On the other hand, you are not going to miss every time, either. I agree. Some targets are tough. Some weapons are much less effective than others. It may well be that this is a gaming input intended to drive up the element of unpredictability and, thereby, increase the challenge.

I don't recall that we ever said the game would be easy to win with...I think all Leon and I ever said was that the game would be easier to get into. Once engaged, we said over and over again that you were going to have to work for your kills. Reduced avionics, automated systems..these don't necessarily mean no-brainer game play!

Keep at it. Some ways are better than others. Check your difficulty level. Don't get caught trying to force a square object into a round hole! And above all...have fun!

Andy

#559142 - 05/18/01 02:10 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
[BKeep at it. Some ways are better than others. Check your difficulty level. Don't get caught trying to force a square object into a round hole! And above all...have fun!
[/B]


I've tried flying at 30,000 feet 3 miles from target, directly pointing at the target, and I get misses.

I've tried coming in low at 500 feet 2 miles from target - misses, but admittedly I have had a hit once or twice - but this is suicide coming in so close and low to kill a target.

I've tried from 5,000 feet 5 nm from target - misses.

I've tried launching directly DOWN on the target - misses.

These are with T-90 tanks FFS.

The only time I can remember hitting anything from over 3 nm away was the ekranoplanes at 4 nm from behind - and this was 30% PK - and they're running along at 375 knots.

Cheers,
Manteau

#559143 - 05/18/01 02:13 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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We have to wait for a strategy guide to learn about weapons parameters?

THAT SUCKS!!!!

I am willing to pay for a strat guide that teaches me how to be a better pilot but.... the basic information I need to use the weapons in this game... such as weapon effective range, should be included in the manual.....

#559144 - 05/18/01 02:41 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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I think there is a balacne to be found here guys, somewhere between ultra lethal weapons and brimstones than couldnt hit the broadside of a mountain at 2 miles (like the ones we currently have). IMHO this problem with inaccurate A2G weapons is the MAJOR stumbling point for this game and i think 90% of the people here would agree with me, im sure the skilled coders at Rage could fix this problem pretty quickly and EVERYONE would be happier. Also, if somewhat more lethal A2G weaons make tank busting a bit too easy just give them somewhat more leatal SAMs to balance the challenge. We are all starting to get a bit sick of firing off 18 brimstones well within engagement parameters and getting 1 or 2 kills.

#559145 - 05/18/01 02:42 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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This thread is rapidly turning south. I don't want to preach. I just want to encourage you all to not jump to any conclusions that may unnecessarily dampen your enthusiasm for the game.

Check out other manuals...such as Falcon4 or Flanker2. While these are very fine manuals and include a lot of good info, please read the missile parameter sections carefully.

In these, you will not find appreciably more info than you get in Typhoon. Missile engagement envelopes are very dynamic. Max range is max aerodynamic range...the range the weapon can fly. It is not max hit range. That range is often considerably less with tight employment constraints to make matters even more difficult.

Use the range bar in Typhoon as you would the Rmax and Rmin indices in Falcon...ballpark data only.

Andy

#559146 - 05/18/01 03:09 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Hi all,

The brimstones in Typhoon are effective inside about 5-6nm (best at 4 and below, I get almost 100% hits at this range). Although this is less than in real life, it was a design decision based on gameplay. If you have 1 shot kill from 10nm+ the game just turns into an arcade shooter (something that I know may of you detest). By making the player get in closer the games level tension goes through the roof.

The 2-3 hits per target was also a gameplay decision. We did have 1 shot kills with Brimstones, but the invasion was just to easy to stop - you could kill a whole group of tanks with 10 pulls of the trigger from 10nm away. There were 2 ways round this - 1 more tanks (game too slow) or more hits for a kill.

The range bar in the MFD is misleading - that is a fair point and I'll have a look at fixing this in the add-on, or a patch.

By the way, in Kosovo I think NATO hit about 4 tanks and a goat in the whole campaign!

I think that if I changed the weapons to be more effective and have a longer range, the spark would go from the game and you would be end up just pulling the trigger and looking at little explosions in the distance - boring! - again Typhoon is more about experience than realism.

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

Steve

#559147 - 05/18/01 03:17 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Use the range bar in Typhoon as you would the Rmax and Rmin indices in Falcon...ballpark data only.

Andy


This game is rapidly turning South IMO. The only thing keeping it going for me is the excellent Campaign - it might as well be an arcade game otherwise.

There would be no point the RAF purchasing Brimstones in real life if their performance was anything by Typhoon's standards. They have currently purchased Mavericks as a stop gap. As far as I know, these (depending on type) have a range of at least 5 nm.

Why would they get anything that's worse than Mavericks for the future (apart from the fact you can carry three times as many of them).

Cheers,
Manteau

#559148 - 05/18/01 03:21 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hunt:
The range bar in the MFD is misleading - that is a fair point and I'll have a look at fixing this in the add-on, or a patch.


I think a lot of people would appriciate it Steve (Patch) - thanks.

Quote:
I think that if I changed the weapons to be more effective and have a longer range, the spark would go from the game and you would be end up just pulling the trigger and looking at little explosions in the distance - boring! - again Typhoon is more about experience than realism.


I've no problem with that, but having to fly over AAA and sams at close range and sometimes several times to claim a kill is just pushing it IMO.

Cheers,
Manteau

#559149 - 05/18/01 03:29 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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The brimstone is a Hellfire basically right? As far as I am aware... that is a pretty deadly missile.

I am gonna trust the guys at Rage... the sim market is filled with games that attempt to model wepons accuratly but they just suck in the gameplay department. Typhoon is a blast so far and if the Brimstone sucks compared to its RL counterpart but I am having a good time when I am trying to keep my plane in one piece while trying to fire .... so be it!!!!

Get me a server browser and I will be happy!!!!!!

#559150 - 05/18/01 03:33 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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I'm just posting to clarify my position on this.

I'm not saying that the weapons should have a 100% PK at max range - I'm not even saying they should have a 70% PK at medium range (but personally I'd expect it).

But the fact is, that many people here seem to be having to fly very close to targets to get a good kill and the PK at close range seems to be bad.

IMO, the brimstones are no better at hitting stationary targets than iron bombs and cluster bombs - which is strange considering that they're billed as ideal anti armour weapons in the manual.

Steve - I'd recommend that you increase the range and PK of the weapons to more realistic levels, BUT perhaps put some logistical (sp?) limit on the number of the guided munitions we have.

Therefore, we have 32 brimstone missiles at this base today. That GR7 took 12, the next tornado sorte took 12, you're left with the rest - until you get resupplied - use them wisely.

Cheers,
Manteau

#559151 - 05/18/01 03:41 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Thanks, Steve, that's all I needed to hear. I had a feeling that there were gameplay issues involved. I guess it's just frustrating to watch my wingies fire missile after missile and miss. (But then again, this ain't new in the Sim Community )
Still like the game...and I'll probably buy the Strat. Guide, mainly cause I suck at managing pilots (I've had 2 thrown in jail cause their airbase was run-over). I hope that will be covered.

I don't think that this thread has to "go bad", you've just got approach Typhoon from a different angle. It's not a sim...it's more like Wing Commander or X-Wing (both of which I had a blast with)...

-Steve C


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#559152 - 05/18/01 03:43 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Hi,

Although you have to be closer than in real life - I find that I can fire hit and turn away without getting my ass shot off - with freefall stuff you have to got right over the top at full pelt!

Cheers,

Steve

#559153 - 05/18/01 03:45 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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"This thread is rapidly turning south."

Andy, just because people are disagreeing with you does not mean the "thread is rapidly turning south."

I think some people here are raising some very good questions.

-Why should consumers buy the game, then have to turn around and buy another manual to tell them how to play it?

-Why is the performance of the A-G weapons so poor? (answered by Steve)

-Why does the game itself mis-represent the employment parameters of the weaponry? (explained somewhat by Steve - needs to be fixed)

#559154 - 05/18/01 04:32 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Fishbed77,

>> Why should consumers buy the game, then have to turn around and buy another manual to tell them how to play it?

You don't have to. I find it a greal deal of fun in sims to find out the correct tactics by myself or the way the AI can be beaten or how the AI reacts. Every sim so far has the weapons modelled differently, so what ? Would be boring for me to read all about it and then just do it in practice and that's it.

The only problem I see is the main target audience of Typhoon, the beginners. I bet there will be some frustration soon, if they most probably fly around lighted up like a christmas tree with their Eurofighter and the manual gets them no clue about this.
So I would have expected at least a simultaneous release of a strategy guide.

Pollux

#559155 - 05/18/01 05:03 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Pollux, that's exactly what I am referring to. The goal of this sim should be to bring new players to the genre (this is the goal, according to Rage). But many circumstances are conspiring against this - initial 3dfx incompatibility (fortunately fixed), poor website (heck, it takes a T1 or higher to effectively view it), questionable US distribution, a manual that tells the player what button to push, but not when to push it, etc.

Yes, a more experienced simmer might be able to crack open a copy of the "2001 Jane's Directory of Radar Guided Air to Ground Munitions Deployment" or whatever if they needed to know how to fire a Brimstone or Penguin. Even then the information would be wrong when applied to Eurofighter Typhoon the game.

I just don't think people should have to pay extra for simple information like this after they have already purchased the game.

#559156 - 05/18/01 05:14 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Posted by Manteau.

"I've tried flying at 30,000 feet 3 miles from target, directly pointing at the target, and I get misses."

Even in RL, you'd by asking for a miss this way. Even if the real Brimstone has a 12 mile range, your 6 miles away vertically & 3 miles away horizontally. 9 miles total, pushing the limit, me thinks.

On the other hand, the following, from Manteau is a very sound suggestion, although I don't know how possible it is (to limit weapons or a specific weapon in the "supply code")using the current campaign engine.

"Steve - I'd recommend that you increase the range and PK of the weapons to more realistic levels, BUT perhaps put some logistical (sp?) limit on the number of the guided munitions we have."

Fishbed77, agree wholeheartedly for these two:

"Andy, just because people are disagreeing with you does not mean the "thread is rapidly turning south."

"-Why should consumers buy the game, then have to turn around and buy another manual to tell them how to play it?" (I would say ANY game, which is all too common these days)

On a different note, Steve says that the weapon parameter scale, at least on the brimstones, is misleading. I say give 'em credit. But, to correct this will be tricky, me thinks. You can change the scale to represent the missle in the the game, or you can change the missle to represent the scale. From what I've read, I think many here would prefer the later. But Steve says it would detract from gameplay and I tend to agree with him, given the goal of EF-T. I think the former suggestion would be the worst; won't appeal to many of yous for the same reason you don't like the current details.



[This message has been edited by Silverswift (edited 05-18-2001).]


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#559157 - 05/18/01 05:36 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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>>Andy, just because people are disagreeing with you does not mean the "thread is rapidly turning south."<<

This discussion has nothing to do with anyone agreeing or disagreeing with anyone else.

Blanket statements have been made that A2G munitions won't hit. This is not the case. The weapons will have an acceptable Pk when employed to best advantage.

And therein lies the heart of the matter...just what exactly is 'to best advantage'?

In Vietnam, we carried missiles that had certain guaranteed launch parameters. Pilots used these parameters in combat...and found that they missed most of the time.

After much wailing and gnashing of the teeth, certain things were found:

1. Max range is a static parameter and usually denotes max aerodynamic range. The fighter avionics was programmed to show this range. This is how the weapon was advertised. The value was accurate and had been demonstrated through tests.

2. Unfortunately, this was not often the case in combat. A small, maneuvering target is different from a static target. Target maneuvers often reduced actual effective range...meaning the missile might still have the legs to fly the distance...it just didn't have the smash to make the end-game hit. Was the advertised range wrong? No. By itself, the statement is accurate, but, to the uninformed, it could be misleading.


3. Not all weapons come out of the factory in perfect condition...nor do they stay that way in daily operations. As a result, no weapon had a perfect one shot absolute guarantee.

4. Lastly, the pilots were screwing up. Wrong switch positions, bad parameters, you name it. Guys were firing willy-nilly at anything that came along and then bitched because they didn't get a kill. In many cases, the problem was theirs, and theirs alone.

As for the Strategy Guide...it is not being produced as a way of adding to the bottom line. While final distribution plans are not yet decided upon, the objective is to have the Guide come in a form that will provide additional value for whatever cost may be attached to it. There is more to this story...I just can't tell you what that is right now.

Try Steve's advice.

Andy

#559158 - 05/18/01 05:48 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Fishbed77,

>>Even then the information would be wrong >>when applied to Eurofighter Typhoon the game.

Yes, but that stands for all sims. Every sim has gameplay decisions, maybe better hidden than in Typhoon.
One example : You can evade AI missiles in almost all sims, although enemy missiles also have no escape zones. Look at Flanker, almost everyone was complaining missiles are too deadly. One could also say : Hey, the clue is not to evade missiles, but to try getting the first shot and avoiding being shot at. If the enemy shoots a missile in its no escape zone, you are dead, bang. Maybe not wise for gameplay reasons, that's why there are now three difficulty settings in Flanker 2.5

Pollux

#559159 - 05/18/01 05:54 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Manteau's suggestion makes a lot more sense, and probably wouldn't be that hard to implement.

What is the point of even having the guided missiles if you have to get that close to hit with them? As I understand it, the whole raison d'etre for such weapons is as a standoff weapon.

Quote:
Originally posted by Manteau:
I'm just posting to clarify my position on this.

I'm not saying that the weapons should have a 100% PK at max range - I'm not even saying they should have a 70% PK at medium range (but personally I'd expect it).

But the fact is, that many people here seem to be having to fly very close to targets to get a good kill and the PK at close range seems to be bad.

IMO, the brimstones are no better at hitting stationary targets than iron bombs and cluster bombs - which is strange considering that they're billed as ideal anti armour weapons in the manual.

Steve - I'd recommend that you increase the range and PK of the weapons to more realistic levels, BUT perhaps put some logistical (sp?) limit on the number of the guided munitions we have.

Therefore, we have 32 brimstone missiles at this base today. That GR7 took 12, the next tornado sorte took 12, you're left with the rest - until you get resupplied - use them wisely.

Cheers,
Manteau

#559160 - 05/18/01 05:55 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Andy,

Umm, guided weapons have come a long way since Vietnam.

Typhoon takes place in 2015.

I read that Maverick missiles had a PK ratio of %84 in the Gulf War.

That was ten years ago now.

[This message has been edited by Fishbed77 (edited 05-18-2001).]

#559161 - 05/18/01 06:22 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Damn, the gulf was ...ten years ago! So that makes my age.......WOW! At anyrate, thanks to the Jackasses at Software first, I still haven't received my copy yet. But let me tell you how I look at sims. Every sim is a different interpretation of the truth. Not that one is worst than the other (sims here, not games like Top Gun), just different. Take the early Spit in EAW vs. the same in BoB (or MFDs in LB2 vs. EECH). They both fly completely different. One sim models this effect & one models that effect. Or one or the other doesn't model whatever. They both, to me, are very convincing depictions of the real thing, with some concessions made for gameplay or development issues. So which is better. Me for one, like the MFDs in LB2, and the Spits of EAW. I think the MFDs are more accurate to RL & the Spits in EAW are more fun to fly. But just because that's what I think, doesn't make it so. Nor does it diminish my enjoyment of EECH or BoB (when it doesn't crash). And you can make the same comparisons to JSH/DISH, what have you. Or to what EF-T is vs. what you expect it to be. Just because something isn't a real as you think it should be, shouldn't diminish your enjoyment of it, if it has alot of other redeeming qualities. On the other hand, if the Brimstones seriously detract from your experience. Then I would say; what do you expect? EF-T was never meant to model things in absolutely realistic terms.


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#559162 - 05/18/01 07:47 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Andy, Steve, we arent here to bitch and moan, we just see it that if this one small area of the game was slightly tweaked it would make this otherwise excellent game much less frustrating.

#559163 - 05/18/01 08:05 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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The UK gaming press have slated Typhoon, on account of it being hyped as 'hard-core' but being arcade in reality.
So I guess the real issue here is one of disappointed expectations, not that the game is fundementally bad. Think of it as arcade, you won't feel let down.

#559164 - 05/18/01 08:16 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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The problem with that is that on the box is a quote that the flight model is one of the realistic you're going to get on a pc.

Things just don't add up.

Cheers,
Manteau

#559165 - 05/18/01 08:27 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Joel

What I have been trying to say...probably not very well...is that I have not had significant problems with the A2G weapons.

Yes, they do miss...and it is a little irritating when I fly all attacks the same way so that I can compare results. But, this is not the norm. Most of my attacks are successful (by that I mean >50%). If my success rate were much higher than that, I would feel the game to be a bit too easy.

I don't know how others are employing their weapons. They may be flying brilliant tactics...or they may be completely buffooning it away. Since I don't know, I won't be critical of their technique. All I can say is that my experience with the game is that the weapons have a reasonable probability of hitting the target. It may take more than one hit to kill a given target. For something like a hovercraft, depending on weapon type, that is not unrealistic.

Andy

#559166 - 05/18/01 08:49 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Willson:
The UK gaming press have slated Typhoon, on account of it being hyped as 'hard-core' but being arcade in reality.
So I guess the real issue here is one of disappointed expectations, not that the game is fundementally bad. Think of it as arcade, you won't feel let down.


Hyped as hardcore?! What exactly has the UK press been reading? Now I know why the game is reviewed by some as it has, if they think the game has been hyped as hardcore. If anything the game has been hyped as NOT being hardcore from day one.

Anyhow Steve explained why certain choices were made with weapon ranges and effectiveness. And even though they still might needd to be tweaked a little, I agree with his reasoning. Making is easy would make the game a shooting match. Take a dozen Brimstones and just go nuts. Effective but not as fun overall

Destroying some targets is harder then it might be in real life, but it's NOT impossible. You have to work at and and accept that you probalby won't be alboe to take out every target on your run. Just go home and try again later.


[This message has been edited by Uroboros (edited 05-18-2001).]

#559167 - 05/19/01 02:06 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Well i busted a gut on this all day yesterday,employing Brim's and ALARM's.
First of all i engaged at max range(just inside the bar) at about 5,000ft clear route to target. What i noticed was that some Brim's/ALARM's hit the target's *clearly* but they(target's) didn't explode!

nor were they incapacitated(which of course AA/SAM's would be!)

Then i engaged 2,000ft; about 1/4 from the bottom of the range bar CAPTOR zoomed full in -six rapid releases of Brimstone's, *all with lock-on*, on T-90's(non moving) and a couple of SA-##(can't remember)

One solitary explosion confirmed a kill

The rest probably hit as per above but the game decide's what target's are destroyed out of a group i think?!

I can live with the Air-to-Air missile's being spoofed -what with CHAFF and flare's *because* they are visual and fun!! Especialy when you see an ASRAAM homing in and taking a flare at the last second

Sorry as regard's the ground target's;
I clearly saw my weapon's hitting home and the AAA/SAM's continue to return fire!

The Air-to-ground is busted!!

You can go on about RL and PK but this is a joke concerning gameplay(of a lite sim which does not employ *real life* Radar launch parameter's other than a range bar!!!.

*If* this game was to concern RL and PK scenario's (as Andy goes on about)Then the MFD's would have contained pertanent data corresponding to it and would have allowed the user to set there launch parameter's up correctly!(and blame themselves for missing!)

The *fact* it contain's little more than a range bar with *no* RL reference's to range(as per EF2000)....indicate's that All this talk about Weapon's realism is absolute bull...

and trying to divert the user away from the main subject that the weapon's that *do* hit home (which you would obviously only be able to follow a couple launched with a few sec's spacing and rapidly switching view with the F7 key Phew!!!)are alway's fighting a losing battle and *never* going to win!

Steve has said that they have been dumbed down when i said in my earlier post about "more astute player's wiping the invader's off the island as soon as they landed" i thought as had many other's that this was the case.

Seve said: "The 2-3 hits per target was also a gameplay decision. We did have 1 shot kills with Brimstones, but the invasion was just to easy to stop - you could kill a whole group of tanks with 10 pulls of the trigger from 10nm away. There were 2 ways round this - 1 more tanks (game too slow) or more hits for a kill.

At least Steve has been honest and *admited* that it's nothing to do with "our weapon launch parameter's=read: Range bar!)...unlike Andy whom goes on about PK and Range parameter's etc......hmmm

The player may halt the Air Invasion(thankfully the bullet's can't be spoofed! but to keep the game in balance the ground unit's are more or less impervious to your weapon's(2-3 hit's to knock one out) *deliberately* so that the campaign continue's past day one....................................

I would still like the A/G weapon's/target's tweaked so that at least when i see a Brim strike home the vehicle is incapacitated and *doesn't* return fire.......even if we can kid on that it will be fixed by ground engineer's in our mind's..........yeh,yeh i know but what else can be done?

Thank's Steve for having the ball's to break this "sideswerved thread" and give us at least a reason why *one* Brim doesn't take out a target we need 2-3 Brim's to destroy *one* now It's a start for me!,although i would like a [i]slighty[/] slowed down/incapacitated vehicle effect as i mentioned above.

Before i was targeting individualy. Now i can concentrate on what? Six Brim's to 2-3 tank's???

I'll test this and suggest other's do to and see how we get on eh?

Tracer

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#559168 - 05/19/01 02:21 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tracer[formerly of CS]:
What i noticed was that some Brim's/ALARM's hit the target's *clearly* but they(target's) didn't explode!

The rest probably hit as per above but the game decide's what target's are destroyed out of a group i think?!

Sorry as regard's the ground target's;
I clearly saw my weapon's hitting home and the AAA/SAM's continue to return fire!

The Air-to-ground is busted!!

....

Six Brim's to 2-3 tank's???

I'll test this and suggest other's do to and see how we get on eh?

Tracer



I can beat that. Four thousand-pound GBU-10s can't take down a fishing trawler.

I can see the reason for some of the gameplay decisions on the weapons. And I give Mr. Hunt credit for admitting it was dummied down. But this is a little overboard. Tracer's hit it right on the nose.

In my opinion, there were better ways to protect the invasion force. Such as with their Navy, and the Russian equivalent of the SA-10 system. In Flanker 2.5, for example, if one sets up a beachhead mission with a couple cruisers standing offshore, incoming air has problems. Sure, you can fire ARMs at them and knock out the ships' radars. And the Kashtan systems on the ships-or the naval SA-10-might well shoot 'em down.

A lot of the problem with establishing and maintaining the beachhead comes from an early design decision: using those fast hovercraft (whatever they're called) alone, with no actual NAVY out there to cover them. A lot of long-time simmers warned about this very thing last year in the newsgroups. Mr. Hunt stated that the design was as it was, and that there'd be no actual naval task force out there, for various reasons.

The results of that decision have come home to roost. No wonder early versions of the game saw Typhoons with Brimstone wipe out the beachhead; there's not enough SAM and naval air cover to give the invasion force a shot at local air superiority without a gameplay fudge. Dummying down a2g weapon effectiveness like this made a basic design problem worse, in my opinion. It's translated across the board to results like the one I got, where a fishing smack is immune to multiple hits with Paveway bombs. If the game had been beta-tested adequately from jump by a decently-sized QA group drawn from the simming community, and not shrouded in top-secrecy this might have come to light far earlier in the design process.

Railing about design decisions taken three years past won't help us now. Mr. Hunt has taken the right attitude by not trying to cover up the FACT that a2g weapons were fudged from jump. They have a substantial investment here, and one of the best campaign systems on the market-I'm sure they'll work with gamers to find a workaround. Subsequent patches won't be able to remedy a basic design flaw. But kludging weapon effectiveness wasn't the best way to solve the problem.

What they CAN do to credibly fix this problem is first put more serious SAMs on the ground with the first wave and second increase the amount of air cover given to the invasion force, while third, decreasing the number of Allied ground forces. Do it with real numbers, not with a jury-rigged weapons model. I know Mr. Hunt is worried about overstressing low-spec machines with large numbers of ground units. There is a way around that: by giving the Russians greater local numerical superiority without increasing the total number of units game-wide. And alert the player AFTER the landing takes place and the beachhead is established. I can see Intel fumbling the ball like a big dog. That happens all the time in real time-it's why "Military Intelligence" is a classic oxymoron. Let Allied air power make up the difference. Yes, the Russkies'll die like flies. But there's waaaaay more of THEM than US. Which is how the REAL Russians always planned to win the war anyway. The Air Force would have you believe that's the key anyway.

Miao, Cat

[This message has been edited by Cat (edited 05-19-2001).]


Miao, Cat
#559169 - 05/19/01 02:45 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tracer[formerly of CS]:


The Air-to-ground is busted!!

Before i was targeting individualy. Now i can concentrate on what? Six Brim's to 2-3 tank's???

Tracer



Try the GBU-10 against the tanks, use a level bombing attack profile, fire and forget, you can pickle off 7 bombs for 7 kills in one pass against almost any target type.

I am also not too unhappy with my Brimstone results. I just don't understand the reports I'm seeing here.

Badboy



[This message has been edited by Badboy (edited 05-19-2001).]

#559170 - 05/19/01 02:47 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Oops double post

[This message has been edited by Badboy (edited 05-19-2001).]

#559171 - 05/19/01 02:59 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cat:
I can beat that. Four thousand-pound GBU-10s can't take down a fishing trawler.


As I said in another post, Im finding the GBU-10s to be very effective indeed! Ive never seen them hit anything without destroying it. Im really puzzled about this.

Badboy

#559172 - 05/19/01 03:00 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Quote:"I am also not too unhappy with my Brimstone results. I just don't undertstand the reports I'm seeing here."

Well Badboy,
Steve said it on page one of this thread about the weapon's needing 2-3 hit's to knock a target out.
I maybe wrong here? but maybe you guy's are thinking that seeing an explosion of you Brim hitting a target equate's to it *being destroyed*?? Obviously you would have to fly *back* over the target to confirm this..as opposed to away(the natural reaction! So you generaly fly away after launch(and seeing big explosions on the hud where the target's are.......)
I can assure you that using Brim's i have hit more than i have missed *but* because of Steve admitting you need 2-3 hit's to destry a target everything has fallen into place...sort of if you look at Cat's post it sound's maybe more serious than was first suspected?
Maybe the game dictate's what target's can/can't be knocked out regardless of "how many hit's are achieved"??

By the way i will try the GBU's....i haven't even used them *once* and i'm late into day 2!

Cheers
Tracer

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#559173 - 05/19/01 03:03 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Badboy:
Try the GBU-10 against the tanks, use a level bombing attack profile, fire and forget, you can pickle off 7 bombs for 7 kills in one pass against almost any target typ.


This's EXACTLY what we're getting at. Thousand-pounder bombs for tank-plinking? They were using GBU-12s for this in Saudi Arabia ten years ago-they're half the size of the GBU-10. There's no equivalent in power for taking down bigger targets.

It really irritates me that one has to use direct-fire ordnance against things like trawlers to have any hope of sinking them, and that dedicated antiship munitions like the Penguin won't even slow them down, forcing you into their AAA envelope. Standoff weapons were designed to prevent this very thing from happening. And I got at least one hit on one of the other trawlers with a Penguin in that mission and didn't even damage it. In the Falklands war, one Exocet sank a Type-42 destroyer.

Miao, Cat


Miao, Cat
#559174 - 05/19/01 03:10 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tracer[formerly of CS]:
Well Badboy,
Steve said it on page one of this thread about the weapon's needing 2-3 hit's to knock a target out.
I maybe wrong here? but maybe you guy's are thinking that seeing an explosion of you Brim hitting a target equate's to it *being destroyed*??



Yep, two hits are required for the Brimstone, but not all of the weapons require multiple hits. As I said the GBU-10 is much more effective! I was referring more to the fact that folk seemed to be missing with it. Perhaps they have sometimes been mistaking the lack of a kill for a miss?


Quote:
By the way i will try the GBU's....i haven't even used them *once* and i'm late into day 2!

Cheers
Tracer


Good luck with that!!

Badboy



[This message has been edited by Badboy (edited 05-19-2001).]

#559175 - 05/19/01 03:19 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Tracer

You don't need to fly back over a target to see if it is still in operation...usually the TI image will disappear if the target is dead. There seem to be some exceptions to this. I've noticed that it is possible to stop or disable tanks, AAA, or hovercraft and have them still remain in the TI.

Cat

Now, now...if I can't talk about RL and past conflicts, neither can you! Falklands was 19 years ago!



Aside from that , your point is right on the money. A Penguin should have a more significant effect. I don't know what the problem is with that situation.

This whole weapons thing is confusing for Leon and I. In general, we are not seeing many of the problems that other are reporting. It may be that some people are firing out of parameters, but that can't be the whole story. Whatever the answer is, we would like to find it.

Andy

#559176 - 05/19/01 03:35 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Andy,
That's *one* target in your TI *not* six!

You surely don't fire one Brimstone then watch it hit home then fire another and watch it...........{get the picture?}......................you would be flying back and forwards until the cow's come home at that rate watching/confirming each impact!

So *one* or maybe 2 i can accept but not more cosidering the quotes bandying about here saying within 2-4 miles from target for optimum launch!?

still open for critcisim this debate?

Tracer

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#559177 - 05/19/01 04:03 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Tracer

>>You surely don't fire one Brimstone then watch it hit home then fire another and watch it<<

Yes. That is exactly what I'm doing. BUT...I'm not 'playing' the game. Instead, ever since these weapons questions came up, I'm doing weapons release tests to look for an answer to the problems you all are reporting. I try to fly a standard profile and then watch the missile's behavior to see what it does...and what the target does.

>>still open for critcisim this debate?<<

Sure. What are you being critical of? Me, the game, or both?

Andy

#559178 - 05/19/01 04:49 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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I'm doing the same thing-except I put the jet on autopilot and use the weapon-cam to follow the bomb in, to make sure it hits. Satisfying explosion, then zilch. I think it's because they've reduced weps effectiveness across the board. Some of the problem may be due to the fact that Andy and Leon aren't using the actual release version of the game-they're using a build that was released way before the game was. Twiddling with the numbers probably happened after they got their builds; that's why WE are seeing this and THEY are not.

Miao, Cat


Miao, Cat
#559179 - 05/19/01 05:35 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Badboy Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cat:
I'm doing the same thing-except I put the jet on autopilot and use the weapon-cam to follow the bomb in, to make sure it hits. Satisfying explosion, then zilch. I think it's because they've reduced weps effectiveness across the board. Some of the problem may be due to the fact that Andy and Leon aren't using the actual release version of the game-they're using a build that was released way before the game was. Twiddling with the numbers probably happened after they got their builds; that's why WE are seeing this and THEY are not.

Miao, Cat


I don't think so Cat, Andy and I were given copies of the Gold Master, that's the version the production copies that you have were made from.

I think the reason why Andy and I are seeing better results, has more to do with the application and knowledge of weapon parameters, attack profile and delivery techniques, than anything else. We hope to address that.

Badboy

#559180 - 05/19/01 05:41 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Somewhere....over the Rainbow
That can't be right, Leon. How does delivery profile change anything when you can SEE the weapon hit dead-center, and fail to so much as damage the target?

It's totally arbitrary. I went back in and tried again, both with Penguin and GBU-10, and got 100% effectiveness-blew the trawlers to bits. And I didn't do ANYTHING different from the other two times where I got zippo.

This is coming from that weapon kludge, and not from poor delivery profile.

Miao, Cat


Miao, Cat
#559181 - 05/19/01 07:02 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Badboy Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cat:
That can't be right, Leon. How does delivery profile change anything when you can SEE the weapon hit dead-center, and fail to so much as damage the target?


I assume we are still talking about the GBU-10 here, if so I have never seen it hit a target and fail to destroy it, let alone fail to damage it.

Quote:
I went back in and tried again, both with Penguin and GBU-10, and got 100% effectiveness-blew the trawlers to bits. And I didn't do ANYTHING different from the other two times where I got zippo.


Thats what Im seeing, with a very high degree of consistency! I think you must have missed it the first time. Also, since folk have been complaining about the Brimstone, Ive loaded up and checked it out again, and Im shocked I just cant see what the fuss is about. Ive been hitting tanks with two weapons and getting 100% success!! Every tank took exactly two hits to kill with the Brimstone, and just one hit to kill with the GBU. None of the weapons missed.

Quote:
This is coming from that weapon kludge, and not from poor delivery profile.


In view of the fact that I seem to be doing rather well with these weapons, I can only assume that folk are doing something wrong. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful.

Badboy

#559182 - 05/19/01 07:52 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Somewhere....over the Rainbow
If that's the case, then, the graphics are hopelessly snafued.

When I say I saw the bomb hit, I mean it hit dead center, exploded, and NOTHING happened. Four times. I didn't watch it on the TI. I watched it from immediately aft, in the F7 camera view, from the Dr. Strangelove position. Where the guy with the cowboy hat rode the nuke down.

If it missed (and hitting the midships hatch dead center isn't a miss, is it?) it was by inches, and the bomb still exploded with zero effect. No shock damage? You're saying here that a thousand pound bomb exploding that close to a fishing trawler won't even damage it? And why, when I did the exact same thing, in exactly the same way, today, did it work? Answer-the game's arbitrarily deciding who lives and who dies. We already know that's going on. All I've done here is confirm that it doesn't only apply to tanks and Brimstones.

As I said: This is resulting from that weapons kludge Mr. Hunt admitted to. Not from delivery profile problems. We're not making this stuff up, Leon, give us a little credit here. Most of the complainers are experienced simmers.

Miao, Cat


Miao, Cat
#559183 - 05/19/01 07:53 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

**DONOTDELETE**
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Aside from that , your point is right on the money. A Penguin should have a more significant effect. I don't know what the problem is with that situation.

This whole weapons thing is confusing for Leon and I. In general, we are not seeing many of the problems that other are reporting. It may be that some people are firing out of parameters, but that can't be the whole story. Whatever the answer is, we would like to find it.


I recon you've got the build before us, and our release build was tweaked.

The version I've got was compiled on 30th March 2001 - which I think is quite a while after you got your copy.

Cheers,
Manteau

#559184 - 05/19/01 07:55 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Badboy:
I don't think so Cat, Andy and I were given copies of the Gold Master, that's the version the production copies that you have were made from.


My copy was compiled on the 30th March 2001 - I don't think yours was.

Cheers,
Manteau

#559185 - 05/19/01 08:29 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Andy Bush Offline
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Manteau

Thanks for the tip. Leon is checking now to see if we have a different version of the game. As soon as we get an answer, we'll let you know.

Andy

#559186 - 05/19/01 08:46 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Manteau

Thanks for the tip. Leon is checking now to see if we have a different version of the game. As soon as we get an answer, we'll let you know.


Thanks - anyway, according to Hengist (well, his campaign, I don't seem to be doing that well in mine) it should finish soon.

There's no denying I've enjoyed the game - it's just I think it could be improved for the better.

Cheers,
Manteau

#559187 - 05/19/01 09:09 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Tracer[formerly of CS] Offline
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Ok been away for several hours playing/testing
Andy i wasn't being abnoxious i was merely trying to keep the thread open rather than this "weapon parameter" reply from you as an (incorrect) answer to our problem's.

I have tried Badboy's GBU theory on SAM/AAA site's and they do indeed score i direct hit first time- for me anyway.
Thanks for that Badboy

I have however come across another problem whilst using the GBU's.......I had to destroy a Hanger on a interdiction mission,(precision bombing or so i thought?)

I loaded up with 2 GBU's and flew out to the target. I had loaded up with 6 Brimstone's as protection against Airfield defences that and to try Steve's 2-3 shot's per tank/SAM/AAA Well i locked onto the first two SAM site's with the Brim's -result two direct hit's *zero* kill though

Then i saw my target marked by a Green "X".....could i lock on to it?! Could i bloody hell!!!!!!!!!!! (only dumb bomb's for a Plane that carries GBU's but can't target a bloody thing with them with no designator!!) i know it said ground forces would laser target's but.........ah to hell.. so i dropped them on the remaining AAA/SAM.

Anyway, i about turned and locked/fired the same two previous target's that i had hit earlier with the Brim's and low and behold One blew up and the other didn't....so quick about turn and locked the last one again and BOOM it went!

So Steve's theory was proven; 2-3 hit's to kill ground target's. Hallelujah!!

I can, at last, work around this problem now..i have to be more frugal with my target's and forget about "spraying" a dozen Brimstone's all over the place.

This *at present* makes the campaign a helluva lot harder! than it already *IS*
But i'm enjoying it again which is what i wanted........phew.

I just hope i can last out!

Tracer



------------------
"Flying is the second hardest thing known to man.........the first is landing!"

#559188 - 05/19/01 09:10 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Uroboros Offline
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Brooklyn, NY
Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Manteau

Thanks for the tip. Leon is checking now to see if we have a different version of the game. As soon as we get an answer, we'll let you know.

Andy


Now if turns out your copy is the same (weapon wise) then ours; do we still get to blame the game?

I think we have to accept that the weapons in the game have been tweaked and made less effective as a gameplay issue. Right or wrong. BUT if Andy and Leon have the same game as the rest of us (and are having better results) ; then there are ways the weapons have to be used to get them to be efffective. It just won't be the exact way it would be in real life so don't think that way.

[This message has been edited by Uroboros (edited 05-19-2001).]

#559189 - 05/19/01 09:23 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Cat,

>> Answer-the game's arbitrarily deciding who lives and who dies

That could be just about right, I had the same impression. I checked that some days ago, but was too confused with the result to mention it in my review. Two sea Monster missions, first mission six shots-six hits. Second mission six shots - one hit. Same delivery technique, same altitude, same range and yes, weapons view showed all targets hit spot on.
Maybe for gameplay reasons, the player shall not kill too many sea monsters because certain invasion starting conditions need to be met ? Could be I'm totally in the wrong movie regarding this, but hmmmm, well....

Pollux

#559190 - 05/19/01 10:20 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Badboy Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tracer[formerly of CS]:
Ok been away for several hours playing/testing
Andy i wasn't being abnoxious i was merely trying to keep the thread open rather than this "weapon parameter" reply from you as an (incorrect) answer to our problem's.


Andys answer was spot on. If you miss the target it is almost certain you have launched outside that weapons parameters. It is not as simple as getting inside the range bar. You have known me a long time Tracer, when have I ever been wrong about this stuff?

Quote:
I have tried Badboy's GBU theory on SAM/AAA site's and they do indeed score i direct hit first time- for me anyway. Thanks for that Badboy


Youre welcome.

Quote:
So Steve's theory was proven; 2-3 hit's to kill ground target's. Hallelujah!!


Two hits work every time for me!

Quote:
This *at present* makes the campaign a helluva lot harder! than it already *IS*
But i'm enjoying it again which is what i wanted........phew.


We have come along way since those days on the Falcon3 ladder, but it is good to see you are having just as much fun as ever Perhaps now you are enjoying it you can cut us a little slack

Badboy

#559191 - 05/19/01 11:50 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Cat Offline
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Somewhere....over the Rainbow
Quote:
Originally posted by Pollux:

...and yes, weapons view showed all targets hit spot on.
Pollux


Thanks, Pollux.

Leon? I'm not the only one seeing this. It's not just a delivery profile thing!

Miao, Cat


Miao, Cat
#559192 - 05/20/01 05:36 AM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Sigh...

[This message has been edited by Kurt Plummer (edited 05-20-2001).]

#559193 - 05/20/01 10:40 AM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Cat:
Thanks, Pollux.

Leon? I'm not the only one seeing this. It's not just a delivery profile thing!

Miao, Cat


I've had this game less than a week, and I haven't stopped playing it for much of that time, but one thing is certain... When I came here and read these threads my success has increased dramatically.

I am now getting much better results with the weapons... Thanks for all these helpful messages, the game is great, I just didn't what I was doing.

I think others would improve also, if they played the game for longer than they spent whining about it.

Prune

#559194 - 05/20/01 02:00 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,364
Tracer[formerly of CS] Offline
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Posts: 3,364
Quote:
Originally posted by Badboy:
We have come along way since those days on the Falcon3 ladder, but it is good to see you are having just as much fun as ever Perhaps now you are enjoying it you can cut us a little slack

Badboy



Wooooaaa! hold your horses Badboy!!
I think we have crossed line's here?

*we* never played on the F3 ladder....sure i own F3 but i never played it online.

this look's like a doppleganger scenario here?

I have been Tracer on CombatSim for all of 4 1/2 year's. When i moved here i (automaticaly) changed my handle to Tracer[formerly of C(ombat)S(im)] so that people from there would recognise me here.

I may have "bumped" into you over there as CS? but i can't remember being on personal term's? Although i'm a friendly guy anyway
(but i'm married ok!) {just a joke friend}

I admire your posts and have followed them since coming to SimHQ.

As regard's your last bit about "cutting some slack" sure , i found my answer from Steve Hunt's -ball's to the wall- brilliant admission about Brimstone's needing 2-3 hit's to take out tank/AAA/SAM.

Nigh on all my Brim's were hitting but i just wasn't getting an explosion and destroyed target Hence why all these "incorrect parameter's" thread's sprouted up everywhere,that just *added* to the confusion!
when in effect it was GAME CODE that was causing (most of) our frustration! and *not* our "shooting skills"....

So i'm happy as can be now

Cheers
Tracer




------------------
"Flying is the second hardest thing known to man.........the first is landing!"

#559195 - 05/20/01 09:33 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
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Badboy Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tracer[formerly of CS]:
Wooooaaa! hold your horses Badboy!!
I think we have crossed line's here?

*we* never played on the F3 ladder....sure i own F3 but i never played it online.




Ok, my mistake! What are the chances of two flight sim' jocks from Scotland, both called Tracer... Obviously better than I thought

I'm going back to a time when there was a lot of online competition in Falcon3. I remember the Tracer I knew was so keen that he drove all the way down from Scotland to take part in a LAN meet at a USAF base where he was shot down relentlessly...

Back in those days I used to do three or four LAN parties a year... 8 player campaigns in EF2000 were a blast!

Those were the days... Gone but not forgotten.

Badboy

#559196 - 05/20/01 10:29 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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EF-t has a "flight model as close to the declassified simulation".
I concur with the comments of the others with grievances re the kill ratio of the fire and forget missles. I`m a little pissed off too having tried as many attack profiles as I can think of and end up having to fly throught the small arms/AAA to get a kill with these weapons. I bought this as its described as an evolved version of other DID titles... which seems to have lost a little in the process. The weapons within F22 were far more realistic in their envenlopes and effect, often with multiple hits being required. I too am shocked at the lack of manual content although I am looking forward to putting up a reinforced book case to hold my copy of the strategy manual and the 2015 edition of Janes BVR weapons sytems....... Thoroughly entertaining campaign which keeps the game(sim)immersive. Thank you for allowing game saves though, Oh and the RAF wont be able to afford the weapons to practice with if the pk ratio is as poor as "Eurofighter Typhoons" depicted. Officially endorsed eh?

#559197 - 05/21/01 06:54 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 73
Mispunt Offline
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The Netherlands
I'm frustrated by the dumbed-down Brimstones as well, but I fund them most effective when:

*you launch them halfway the rangebar (5 miles?)
*you don't fire all missiles at once but one per target (it SEEMS like when you fire more then 10 or so at once most just won't make it to the target, less missiles = more kills, I think anyway )
*turn around and come back to fire a second Brimstone per target....

that usually does the job....

hope it helps

Mispunt

#559198 - 05/21/01 07:07 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Mispunt:
I'm frustrated by the dumbed-down Brimstones as well, but I fund them most effective when:

*you launch them halfway the rangebar (5 miles?)
*you don't fire all missiles at once but one per target (it SEEMS like when you fire more then 10 or so at once most just won't make it to the target, less missiles = more kills, I think anyway )
*turn around and come back to fire a second Brimstone per target....

that usually does the job....

hope it helps

Mispunt




Try using ASRAAMs against tanks - they're very effective - one hit = one kill.

And they've got a range of about 7 miles.

It's only via a bug in the game you can use them against ground targets, but the fact that they're better than Brimstones just shows something.

Cheers,
Manteau

#559199 - 05/21/01 09:34 PM Re: Question on fixing the weapon problems...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by joelhume:
Andy, Steve, we arent here to bitch and moan, we just see it that if this one small area of the game was slightly tweaked it would make this otherwise excellent game much less frustrating.


Wrong...
Many of you punks are here to get anal over the range of a brumweiser, or what the **** the name is...
You guys think playing around with eFalcon is knowledge and reason enough to start arguing with guys who have flown the real thing...

I like a good game, I also like my game to be improved and patched if buggy, but shite like this thread is simply to stupid..

Erhmm....
OK then... count me amongst the stupid...

Lars "da Blond Bomb" Birkemose

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