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#558667 - 05/13/01 06:03 AM Typhoon: to F-15 and F-18 Jocks?  

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All this talk of Typhoon has got my mouth watering. On the other hand, I'm glad I had the self-control to wait for feedback before buying a new sim (for the first time in years!). I don't have Typhoon yet.

I'll make this simple. To guys who have spent a lot of time with F-15 and F-18, is Typhoon any good? For example, if you would give F-15 a 7/10 and F-18 8/10, what would you give Typhoon?

(What's the point- if I go to the store next week and see the thing on a shelf, I'll be reaching for the credit card!)

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#558668 - 05/13/01 10:45 AM Re: Typhoon: to F-15 and F-18 Jocks?  

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F15 and F18 are more sim than game; Typhoon is more game than sim.


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#558669 - 05/13/01 11:15 AM Re: Typhoon: to F-15 and F-18 Jocks?  

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I have all the sims you name, and more.
For years I've beem seriously into realism in sims.

This doesn't mean however that I can't recognize and appreciate a GAME that tries to do something different.

ET is certainly worth the money .. its a totally different type of experience from the realism sims, but it is equally immersive and challenging and fun. Remember everyone that EF2000 was not exactly a realism sim either... and didn't you all love (Still Love) EF2000? When ET is every bit as good an experience as EF2000... which is really saying something.

BUY BUY BUY

Andre

#558670 - 05/13/01 11:30 AM Re: Typhoon: to F-15 and F-18 Jocks?  

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I have all the sims two typhoon is good but i would like the MFDS in the right place niknaks_131st

#558671 - 05/13/01 11:37 AM Re: Typhoon: to F-15 and F-18 Jocks?  

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Casey,

it's too much comparing apples and oranges. If your fun with F-15 and F/A 18 is based on dealing with systems and avionics, then Typhoon is not for you. If you like intense combat experience and can accept some AI flaws, then get Typhoon !

Pollux

#558672 - 05/13/01 01:05 PM Re: Typhoon: to F-15 and F-18 Jocks?  

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I played F-18 and F-15 quite a bit, so heres the big difference, you spend most of your time in Typhoon looking at the world outside the cockpit where as in the Janes games you spend more time working inside the cockpit. Typhoon actually plays more like a WWII style sim with lots of close encounters with the enemy and transparent avionics. Its really good and unlike F-18 it actually runs at a good frame rate (even on my 1.3Ghz Athlon im not happy with the FPS on F-18).

#558673 - 05/13/01 02:16 PM Re: Typhoon: to F-15 and F-18 Jocks?  
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The ground war in EFT is quite excellent!(it is afterall the *first* dynamic one created)

I was flying an escort to a C17 when i noticed 3 T-90'2 -that i had attacked earlier on a previous interdiction and managed to only knockout about 3/4- traveling steadfastly towards my airbase.

When i had completed the escort armed with ALARM's i was on my return when i noticed the T-90's engaged in combat with my airfield defenses! (i could see target box's appear around them and shell's striking them and around them) being unarmed,i landed and was immediately lit up by an IR. Looking up i saw a wave of Russian fighter/bomber's coming in,so i lit her back up into the air and commenced attacking and (failing) valiantly to defend my airbase with gun's only
With radar,airframe and airbrake damaged i had no choice but to make a low level break for it and land at another NATO A/B.
When i was in the mess i saw that my "old" A/B had indeed been captured.

EFT may be a lite sim but the dynamic campaign sure isn't!

That's what make's a huge difference with some of today's so-called hard-core sim's....the campaign are scripted and repetitive. EFT's is *not*

F-15 was "semi scripted" but one of the best games put out. EFT has the simplicity of pick-up-and-play without a 600page re-read every time you put the game down for a week or two


Tracer


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#558674 - 05/13/01 03:00 PM Re: Typhoon: to F-15 and F-18 Jocks?  

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it is afterall the *first* dynamic one created

Certainly not. ApacheHavoc had a real time dynamic campaign, and so did its successor EECH. And unlike the one in ET, in the two former games the campaign adapts even if the user plays "outside of the campaign system" (free quote from S.Hunt), i.e. does free refueling/ rearming etc.

As for the original question: if you liked F-15/F-18 for their technical fidelity and you expect a flight sim to have at least some of that fidelity, then ET is clearly not for you. If however you also enjoy a game of Quake or Unreal (sic!) once in a while, then you might find some fun in ET as well.

#558675 - 05/13/01 04:31 PM Re: Typhoon: to F-15 and F-18 Jocks?  
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blaze:
it is afterall the *first* dynamic one created

Certainly not. ApacheHavoc had a real time dynamic campaign, and so did its successor EECH. And unlike the one in ET, in the two former games the campaign adapts even if the user plays "outside of the campaign system" (free quote from S.Hunt), i.e. does free refueling/ rearming etc.


I quoted Ground War.............sigh........AND the campaign in A/H was *heavily* scripted and repetitive AND it's a helicopter sim......nothing to do with a FLIGHT sim....................hmmmm you *never* give it a break on this forum with your little childish remarks eh?

EFT's ground war is the *first* truly dynamic one created


Tracer

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#558676 - 05/13/01 05:32 PM Re: Typhoon: to F-15 and F-18 Jocks?  
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Umm..I love EF:T as well...but..umm..

what about Falcon 4's campaign?
Didn't that have a ground war in there too?


-Gel214th
#558677 - 05/13/01 06:09 PM Re: Typhoon: to F-15 and F-18 Jocks?  
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F4 had a ground war, and it was in fact dynamic. However, I think what everyone is referring to, in the sims they mentioned, is that the "dynamic" ground war in F4, while it is, it isn't. Two ground units fight it out, in real time, and you can see a depiction of the resulting battle, but the ground units really aren't fighting; the computer is playing out several factors and decides who won the battle. A T-72 doesn't really shoot a M1 (although gives you that impression), the computer figures who won. In EEAH & EECH, the two combatants actually fight it out, in real time. If a T-72 shoots a M1 in those games, it shoots a M1.
And Tracer, the campaign in EEAH was dynamic. Although, I admit, in both games, the campaign is initially repetitive; recon, recon, & more recon. However, once all the enemy units are identified, things really pick up.




[This message has been edited by Silverswift (edited 05-13-2001).]


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#558678 - 05/13/01 07:15 PM Re: Typhoon: to F-15 and F-18 Jocks?  

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Another example from the campaign in Typhoon.

Flew a CAP mission last night. Just past halfway to my patrol point two MiG 29s lifted off a captured base to intercept me. I ordered my wingman to engage and she managed to take out one of the two. I took out the second in a brief furball, then we were back on course.

Before we got back to cruise alt I could see (had radar off) six to eight interceptors heading our way over the patrol area 50nm ahead. Ech. Not good. Decision point.. turn around or do our best...

Ok. I still have five other pilots alive (18:40 hours on Day 1).

I selected the center group and ordered wingman to bracket left. I turned slightly right.

When we had a decent spread I ordered wing to engage and went nose hot. By now we were at 28 miles from the closest group, perhaps 32 miles to the next.

I launched all my Meteors within 60 seconds, by now at 22 miles. My wing wasn't quite that efficient but I ordered her to disengage rather than target another group and order her to engage again. Then I ordered finger formation and did a quick loop around to maintain some distance from the bandits.

By the time we looped to re-engage we were about 16 miles and had knocked down four of about ten.

I ordered wing to engage again and now we were being launched on by various fighters. I quickly found the dangerous ones (Su27s) and tried to engage a pair while my wing took on some others.

I had six ASRAAMs and used FOUR on one Su, while hoping the other wouldn't kill me. Managed to stay clean and killed the other with my last two. At this point my wing was hit and ejected.

Now I have three fighters in the air around me and two about 12 miles to my 9 o'clock who are free now that my wing is down.

I really wanted to survive this fight. My DASS was on max zoom and I could see that two fighters are in a pair about 5 miles at my 3 o'clock. I think they are both MiG 27s. The other fighter is pulling onto my six at 4 miles and I'm not sure what it is.

I rolled and went for the deck, lit the AB when I was low and zoomed between a couple of hills.

The following fighter stayed high at first and launched an IR missile. I killed the burner and twisted hard around another hill when the missile was about one mile behind. Sure enough, missile impacted the hill.

Now all three fighters are after me and there is another launch. The near fighter has come down to the deck and I am pushing the limit about 100 feet off the rolling ground. As I nearly impact on a small rise suddenly the fighter is gone .. he didn't pull up fast enough.

Now I have two more on my tail about six miles. I zoomed out my DASS briefly and spied some green crosses about 12 miles ahead. Thinking back to my EF2000 days I reasoned that those friendly SAMs could be very helpful about now

Another missile launch.. radar missile .. I am out of chaff and flares by now. I did a half loop pulling into a hill and the missile lost me.

The fighters are about four miles off my six now since my looping has cost me some speed and time. About four miles to the SAMs and I notice a launch up ahead!

Sure enough, the fighters behind me are dropping chaff. A few seconds later the AAA guns are targeting them. Suddenly there is only one fighter on my tail.

The remaining MiG 27 is down low with me and now we mix it up. He is turning pretty well with me and I get a couple of snapshots. He tries to nail me with an IR missile but the angles are hopeless.

Now we're both in the AAA and I'm afraid of friendly fire if this continues very long, so I try to drag the fight a bit further away. I watch as the MiG barely dodges another SAM.

Finally I pull him into a nice guns shot.. just as another SAM nails him!

I'm ecstatic. I lost my wing but she bailed safely. Altogether we killed about twelve bandits and I made it to an alternate base. This mission had plenty of challenge and I didn't know from one moment to the next if I'd make it.



[This message has been edited by Leonard Hjalmarson (edited 05-13-2001).]

#558679 - 05/13/01 09:02 PM Re: Typhoon: to F-15 and F-18 Jocks?  
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Silverswift, i'm not hot on EECH because i quoted A/H which i have. That is a semi- dynamic campaign not *fully* dynamic.

F4 had a semi-dynamic ground war Silverswift as you said but not a *fully* dynamic like EFT.

Please read pages 48-49 of the manual and you will see what i mean?

This quote from it:
"Typhoon is a truly dynamic campaign within the theater of conflict. Events in other part's of the world will affect the campaign system. It is the first time we have modelled a campaign at so many levels.
Few if any other product's boast such a comprehensive system"


Combat AI
Dynamic

Mission Planning
Dynamic

Resource modelling
Dynamic

Strategic modelling
Dynamic

Extra theater influences
scripted

Tracer


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"Flying is the second hardest thing known to man.........the first is landing!"

#558680 - 05/13/01 09:14 PM Re: Typhoon: to F-15 and F-18 Jocks?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blaze:
it is afterall the *first* dynamic one created

Certainly not. ApacheHavoc had a real time dynamic campaign, and so did its successor EECH. And unlike the one in ET, in the two former games the campaign adapts even if the user plays "outside of the campaign system" (free quote from S.Hunt), i.e. does free refueling/ rearming etc.

As for the original question: if you liked F-15/F-18 for their technical fidelity and you expect a flight sim to have at least some of that fidelity, then ET is clearly not for you. If however you also enjoy a game of Quake or Unreal (sic!) once in a while, then you might find some fun in ET as well.


So Blaze...quick question. Have you actually played Typhoon yet? If not; why don't you reserve judgement until you do.

#558681 - 05/13/01 10:05 PM Re: Typhoon: to F-15 and F-18 Jocks?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Silverswift:
F4 had a ground war, and it was in fact dynamic. However, I think what everyone is referring to, in the sims they mentioned, is that the "dynamic" ground war in F4, while it is, it isn't. Two ground units fight it out, in real time, and you can see a depiction of the resulting battle, but the ground units really aren't fighting; the computer is playing out several factors and decides who won the battle. A T-72 doesn't really shoot a M1 (although gives you that impression), the computer figures who won. In EEAH & EECH, the two combatants actually fight it out, in real time. If a T-72 shoots a M1 in those games, it shoots a M1.
And Tracer, the campaign in EEAH was dynamic. Although, I admit, in both games, the campaign is initially repetitive; recon, recon, & more recon. However, once all the enemy units are identified, things really pick up.


[This message has been edited by Silverswift (edited 05-13-2001).]



First off:

Great Job RAGE !!

EFT is just what the doctor ordered for the lagging SIM market. Definitely two thumbs up. :-)


On-Topic:

You would need a *SuperComputer* to run F4's ground war in 3d (100% DYNAMIC)...

The Order Of Battle in both sims differs exponentially.

Also ET covers an area 5 times smaller than the default F4 theatre size.

Maybe one day we'll be able to compare apples -to-apples.

As there's an Iceland scenario in dev. for F4 ;-)


FAngs32-444 VFS
RP Group

#558682 - 05/13/01 11:02 PM Re: Typhoon: to F-15 and F-18 Jocks?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Tracer[formerly of CS]:
[QUOTE]
I quoted Ground War.............sigh........AND the campaign in A/H was *heavily* scripted and repetitive AND it's a helicopter sim......nothing to do with a FLIGHT sim....................hmmmm you *never* give it a break on this forum with your little childish remarks eh?

EFT's ground war is the *first* truly dynamic one created


Tracer



1. EECH predates ET, which means that whether you quote EEAH or not, the fact remains that EECH's dynamic campaign predates ET's.

2. PCZone described B17 as 'repetitive', which I can't help feeling is a comment that applies to your description of AH. If you want repetitive, you're better off arguing over EAW.

3. Helicopters *fly*. Now I don't know how you manage to define flight sim as different from helicopter sim, that one sure beats me. You'll be tempting me to argue jet sims aren't flight sims because you have a computer to do the flying, and WW1 is the only true flight genre

And before you ask, yes, I have Eurofighter Typhoon...


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#558683 - 05/14/01 12:00 AM Re: Typhoon: to F-15 and F-18 Jocks?  

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Hey Viking,

BVRAAM. Interesting, do you get any kind of midcourse uplink/TVM capability for the Meteor? And how many did your wingman fire?

Seems somewhat fishy that you would get so few hits from such a large launch number at such short range. I also think they are badly underestimating the longpol energy of a constant impulse ramjet weapon.

The only thing which could modify this would be very large formation stack/trail separations outside the ECR mechanical array TWS boundaries and given the 'generic' modelling of the sensors in general, that seems unlikely.

ASRAAM. Do all threats have a MAWS equivalent, 'break on launch', capability regardless of weapon type/firing range and do ASRAAM's lockon at BVR?

I would put it in an 8-10nm seeker, 6-8nm airframe class, FQ-hi, and would like to ask how you specifically engaged threats that you wasted so many rounds (IRCM, launch break, terminal break, beam-extension??)??

Given a longrange launch and a high efficiency (lo drag airframe) midcourse the threat should not react at least until the ASRAAM hit's visual merge by which time any MAKS system should be seeing, at most, a gasgenerator burn.

'MiG-27s', with radar, snicker.

Pilots over Planes. Given that there are nominally a 1.5 and in some case 2 or more to 1 manning ratio, the Wingie's plane was more valuable than she was (did she live, btw?).

That, more than anything was the key to determining the engagement odds. You might consider letting the threat 'declare intent', by mission role, and if they were specifically a DCA sweep out for your hide, seeing if you could draw them over FLOT into your SAM freefire lanes, first. No kill better than a freebe, even if you do have to hand off to the gruntnicks.

Instead, from your description, it sounds like you got close with indecisive BVR attrite, you didn't fully(?) employ your sections LRAAM capabilities and then you got individually fangy and boresighted, losing all control of fight initiative and eventually even expendables=survivability 'hang in there' options.

Relying on deux ex machina to yank your nellies out of the flame after all other choices were gone is NOT a good way to reach the old fighter pilots home...

If you could begin the fight at 50nm and have your wingman another 20-30 behind you, you could time out a dual targeted, fullpol, (40+40 rather than 60 all) shot on all your Meteor and then come off and let her have an equivalent turn, cutting off the corner while they ineffectually chased you back to a common rejoin point.

In all likelihood they will scatter as she starts to take Yorkian turkey shots from behind.

By getting such low LRAAM attrition and then coming back from a predictable extension to take on two separate forces (one completely unattrited?) at radar-merge conditioning, you were automatically guaranteeing that your team would have threats past the 3/9 and thus be azimuth split and reactive rather than proactive to the fight at hand.

'Loop around' be hanged, if ya ain't gunnin', ya'd better be runnin' and doing both, in lead-trail sequence, would have likely got you more timed-out kills and left you with a clearer range=decision point (and sniper geometry) on accepting the subsequent merge combat.

1+1+4+2+1/1= 8:1 exchange.

1+1+2(1)+2(1)+2(1)+2(1)/0= 6:0 exchange.

I know for sure which one I'm picking....


KP

#558684 - 05/14/01 12:57 AM Re: Typhoon: to F-15 and F-18 Jocks?  

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Kurt, for the love of God chill out. What motivates you to write this stuff?

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#558685 - 05/14/01 02:25 AM Re: Typhoon: to F-15 and F-18 Jocks?  

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Kurt,

but that's the fun of this kind of thing. Since it's a game, one can experiment and if killed, come back to fly another day.

I like the option of single engagement with wingie coming in behind. I'll give it a go. I'm also curious about the drag options for wingman. I think I'll try the mission that way next.

Meteor's do seem to have too low a hit ratio in this one.

I think ASRAAM will lock longer than WEZ, but of course hit ratio isn't good. Surprisingly, hit ratio head on with ASRAAM is nearly 50%, but it does depend on the platform and how aggressively they maneuver and drop flares.

#558686 - 05/14/01 03:00 AM Re: Typhoon: to F-15 and F-18 Jocks?  

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Thanks for the awesome response guys.

As I said at the top, I'm a sim addict; I know I'll buy it as soon as it comes to CompUSA no matter what.

But now I can't wait. I had one of those "go in the closet and dig through my old sims" weekends. I wanted to fly something but I just couldn't get into any for more than a few minutes. So I spent Saturday night drinking, cleaning my hard drive, uninstalling things I haven't played in more than a month, defragged and went to bed.

I was very pissed off about Fly!2 being a pile of crap. Typhoon might be just what I need to get back in the cockpit!

Good Hunting.

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