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#557224 - 05/05/01 06:59 PM This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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The above screenshot shows just what I mean.

I want to line up on the target - I can't use the rudder like you would normally do - you have to roll right 90 deg, then pull up, then shoot. Or roll 45 deg and pull up and then straighten out. It's stupid - and unrealistic.

*PLEASE* can Rage do something about this?

Cheers,
Manteau

[This message has been edited by Manteau (edited 05-05-2001).]

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#557225 - 05/05/01 07:31 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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I do hope so. What also bugs me about there being no rudder is trying to perform a High/Low YoYo when in a dogfight, you need the rudder or you have to fly it as you describe above.

Please Rage, give us a manual rudder. At the moment flying it feels like an X-Wing or a TIE fighter, and not a plane.

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#557226 - 05/05/01 07:40 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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Manteau

>>It's stupid - and unrealistic.<<

It's neither. Try this. Go to the Air Combat Corner here at SimHQ and read my A2G series with particular attention to the gunnery section. Note the discussion of rudder effect on projectile ballistics.

Then do this. Fire up one of your other sims...one that has a manual rudder. MiG Alley will be fine if you have it. Point your nose at the ground and fire off a long burst. Push in the rudder as you fire. Note the path of the tracers. Then push in and hold the rudder. Now fire another burst...note the tracer path. You will graphically see why rudder input gives you a sight picture that lies to you.

A2A gunnery is flown 'feet on the floor'. Rudder equals yaw, and yaw is bad.

In this screenshot, you should bank slightly right and get the pipper drifting right. Just before it gets to the target, roll left to kill your drift. Now re-assess the pipper position. Continue to bank and raise/lower the nose until you get the correct sight picture.

Andy

#557227 - 05/05/01 07:44 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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Hengist

Did you se my earlier post on rudder use in a Yo-Yo?

I'm sorry, but, as far as rudder use is concerned, your BFM knowledge is wrong on this maneuver. How can I help you get it straight?

Andy

#557228 - 05/05/01 08:01 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Andy,

I didn't see it, I'll do a search for YoYo's.

I'm referring to a slow speed YoYo, between 300kts & 400kts. You telling me you don't use it under those conditions? I know that WW2 prop' pilots did (obviously they were going a triffle slower than the above).

Also, didn't the A10 Warthog use a skid maneuver using the rudder when involved in the Road to Basra turkey shoot during the Gulf war. I've read many reports that say it did.

I'm looking forward to your reply.

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http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley



[This message has been edited by *Hengist* (edited 05-05-2001).]

#557229 - 05/05/01 08:17 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Hengist

your BFM knowledge is wrong on this maneuver.
Andy



Ok I'm gonna quote a guy who goes by the name of Andy Bush...

"In the High Yo-Yo, the rudder may improve roll rate if the pilot has bled his speed to a low level prior to initiating the pull down."

So it looks like the rudder is used in a YoYo maneuver, and I'm not wrong.

No need to apologise Andy




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#557230 - 05/05/01 09:40 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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Hengist

That other Andy Bush is a dottering old airline pilot who still thinks he's a young fighter pilot with a 32 inch waist and lots of hair.

Here's what he was really trying to say...

The term 'slow speed yo-yo' is a bit of a misnomer. There is no maneuver by that name in traditional BFM. Instead, there are the Low Yo-Yo and High Yo-Yo maneuvers.

The Low Yo-Yo maneuver is sometimes also known as an 'acceleration maneuver'. It Is a relatively low G maneuver that uses cut off to increase closure on a target. Rudder is used only to coordinate aileron input.

The High Yo-Yo is a different matter. It is an aggressive maneuver where the pilot uses flight path geometry to control closure and prevent a flight path overshoot. In doing so, he may find that is speed has bled off at the apex of his pull up. At that point (relatively slow speed), he will want to use rudder to coordinate his roll to begin the pull down.

In either case, note that rudder is used only to coordinate the roll...to prevent adverse yaw. The rudder is not turning the plane, it is only making the roll more effective. For most High Yo-Yos, the pilot could fly without rudder input and not really notice much difference.

As for a 'skid maneuver' in the A-10...I've never heard of it. Perhaps the reference was to using the rudder to move the gun line around while shooting...against an area target where precise aiming was not needed, this might help open up the impact area.

Against a point target, there is no such thing as a 'skid maneuver'. In a high crosswind situation where the A-10 is experiencing a rapid drift rate, it is possible to yaw the gun into the wind to increase impact density. I've done it and taught it as a technique...but, as a general rule, I wouldn't endorse it for the average pilot.

Andy

#557231 - 05/05/01 09:54 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Just as an aside, Manteau, that screenshot shows you doing 425 kts. Even if you could control your rudder directly, it'd have no effect - you're going too fast.


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#557232 - 05/05/01 11:07 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Magnet,

You sound like a man who'd know... What's the average corner speed for the EFT?

Andy.
"That other Andy Bush is a dottering old airline pilot who still thinks he's a young fighter pilot with a 32 inch waist and lots of hair."

lol, nice one

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[This message has been edited by *Hengist* (edited 05-05-2001).]

#557233 - 05/05/01 11:10 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Sorry, I work weapons and stores release, not flight mechanics and controls. [g]

Besides which, exact capabilities of Typhoon are still restricted. I can't tell you anything you won't find on a website somewhere. Sorry.


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#557234 - 05/05/01 11:22 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Andy,

Okay, you're the one with the experience

However, the only link about it I can find is this:

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/guns3/guns3.shtml

Unless I'm blind, all I can see is talk about the pipper showing you the past, not what happens if you shoot now.

Fair enough about the lining up - thanks for the info.

But the point remains. If I fire a burst of cannon and I can see the tracer is going to the left of the target (ignore the pipper) - are you saying that putting in right rudder and firing again won't correct that to some extent? It seems to in other sims...

Cheers,
Manteau

[This message has been edited by Manteau (edited 05-05-2001).]

#557235 - 05/05/01 11:25 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Magnet:
Besides which, exact capabilities of Typhoon are still restricted. I can't tell you anything you won't find on a website somewhere. Sorry.





Woah, I was only after a quick guestimate. Anyone else know, or know of a website that does... I don't


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#557236 - 05/05/01 11:30 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by *Hengist*:

Woah, I was only after a quick guestimate. Anyone else know, or know of a website that does... I don't


This one's quite good:

http://www.eurofighter.pso-online.com/index_dom.php

Cheers,
Manteau

#557237 - 05/05/01 11:34 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Cheers Manteau.

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#557238 - 05/05/01 11:44 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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#557239 - 05/06/01 01:09 AM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Manteau

This is the article:

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/atgbasicsp3/atg3.shtml

This picture from the article illustrates the point.

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/atgbasicsp3/fig14.jpg

Andy



Andy,

I'll take your word for it - you've had the experience and the training, and I haven't.

However, this runs against what happens in F4 (not saying F4 is realistic, and I haven't tried MigAlley).

I use this "technique" in F4 quite a bit and TAW (be it right or wrong) and it seems to work, so that's why I thought it would be useful in Typhoon.

Manteau

#557240 - 05/06/01 01:16 AM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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I agree Manteau.

When someone starts commenting on the realism aspects of EFT, certain people are quick to point out that it's a Lite sim.

However, we now appear to be getting into the bounds of realism over whether or not a rudder should be used in certain situations.

Nothing I've read so far convinces me that there shouldn't be a manual rudder in this game.

I remember putting on my MiG Alley site that a quick rudder deflection when firing rockets gives a nice spread and increases your chance of hitting the target. It may not be a real-life tactic, but it works well in that sim.

All I know, is that I want manual rudder control, it would make EFT (the game) better

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#557241 - 05/06/01 07:00 AM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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You know Andy, not to contradict you, but I have seen interviews of WW2 & Korean Air Combat veterans discuss their techniques in strafing ground targets with guns. In fact, I remember one Korean Ace describing a diffiult dogfight where he finished the guy off with a little bit of rudder (on DISC Channel, "The Real Top Guns"). They directly state that they used their rudders to increase the kill zone of their run. Now, I can see how using rudders to try to control the bomb impact point can screw things up, but in the particular screenshot, I think using rudders would be beneficial. In fact, I have used my rudders in EAW, CFS2, MiG Alley, as well as several modern sims in A-A guns to great effect. Perhaps the effect you describe is not fully implemented, but the technique is certainly valid, at least in most simulations.

[This message has been edited by Silverswift (edited 05-06-2001).]


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#557242 - 05/06/01 10:31 AM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Here's some input from a German Luftwaffe pilot (not me, it's a quote from a german forum), basically the same what Andy is saying :
--Yaw is too inefficient to get adequate nose movement. More effective is too roll and pull, means rotate the lift vector where you want to go, everything else is waste of energy. Lift vector control is the key in dogfights together with energy management (AOA control). Yaw ist only needed to roll at high AOA, because here the rudder is more effective than aileron.
And with fly by wire planes the computer calculates, if rudder/aileron is needed to execute the maneuver the pilot requested with the stick. Of course the pilot can give rudder inputs, but it's not necessary.--

To sum it up, it wouldn't hurt to have rudder control in Typhoon, but it's not a show stopper not to have it.
From my side there are more important things like wingman status info and improvements of wingman AI. I hate Wingmen going suicidal and in roughly 80% of the cases not being able to evade missiles. I hear "Wingman down" in every mission, often he is down but sometimes he isn't. I also don't understand why the HUD declutter removes the velocity vector and guncross and why there are no HUD colour options.

Pollux


[This message has been edited by Pollux (edited 05-06-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Pollux (edited 05-06-2001).]

#557243 - 05/06/01 10:42 AM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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We know what Andy is saying and we're not doubting him, and your right it aint a show stopper. Its just that we don't agree with him when it comes to using a rudder in a game, especially a Lite sim

When I was flying online last night in a dogfight and using a YoYo at around 270kts; On the downleg of the YoYo I wanted to use the rudder to 'slice' the nose down below the horizon, but I couldn't. Consequently it wasn't as effective as in other sims that do have a manual rudder.

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http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

[This message has been edited by *Hengist* (edited 05-06-2001).]

#557244 - 05/06/01 10:51 AM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
As for a 'skid maneuver' in the A-10...I've never heard of it.



Andy (and Pollux),

Have you heard of it being used in Prop' sims?

Do you still have the EAW manual? Take a look in there in the maneuvers section.

At slow speeds (slower than Manteau's indicated speed in the picture I agree), I see no reason why Manteau couldn't use it to the same effect as described in the EAW manual.


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[This message has been edited by *Hengist* (edited 05-06-2001).]

#557245 - 05/06/01 02:02 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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I'm not sure what all of this has to do with Typhoon...but if your'e game, so am I!!

But first of all...I definitely agree...manual rudder is good! Now, if it turns out that the RW Eurofighter has a flight control system that would restrict pilot rudder input, then we are dealing with a different matter. I have no knowledge of the specifics of the subject.

And regarding the use of rudder to 'slice' the nose down at the top of a climb...that's OK too. That specific technique is not how a High Yo-Yo is taught however. In the classic High Yo-Yo, the assumption is that airspeed has not been significantly reduced. Closure has been reduced due to the geometry of the maneuver, not because of any speed loss in the climb.

Now, back to gunnery!

Here's the page out of the EAW manual that you may be referring to. For starters, sim manuals are not Shaw's Fighter Combat. My overall view of manuals is that they are written by amateurs. There are exceptions. Bonanni's F4 Strategy Guide and the F/A-18 Korea manual are excellent...but, of course, they are written by RL experts.



I'll seldom say 'never' to anything with regard to fighter employment...but in this situation (put yourself at position #1), is this how you would solve the gunnery problem (fly to position #2 and then yaw the airplane left to shoot)? I suppose such a thing could happen, but the wisdom of this technique escapes me. Yes, it does increase apparent target size, but the drawbacks are such that I do not see the overall advantage.

How about 'kicking rudder' to improve stafing? The next shot shows the result of shoving in rudder as the trigger is pulled.



Against a large target...an 'area' target as it is known...spreading out the impact pattern can have positive results. In RL, we used to hear guys talking about 'kicking the rudders' to better their strafe scores. I tried it...but only once, on a low angle strafe pass. I sprayed bullets all over the place, the plane yawed and rolled, and I scared myself pretty good trying to get the thing back under control before I hit the ground. After studying the idea, my conclusion was that the technique had application in only very specific circumstances and should not be attempted at low altitude.

In the final analysis, there is a difference between what 'can' be done and what 'should' be done. Technically, the rudder could be used to yaw the rounds into a target. In some very specific circimstances, this may work. But, as a rule, we did not teach A2A gunnery this way.

Andy

#557246 - 05/06/01 04:36 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Well at last I think we can all finally agree that it is a viable option... note the word 'option'.

Nothing personal Andy, but I just hate it when people publically say I'm wrong, I wont let go until I prove my point

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#557247 - 05/06/01 05:24 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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LOL!

You want to use rudders while going at over 400Kts??


Are you accustomed using rudders to line up a shot accurately on an Air To Air target in a fast moving Jet?

Why don't you just drift slightly right until you line up? Bank the plane just a little bit...thats a lot more accurate than Yawing the plane crazily left and right with rudders.

In short..I really don't think you have very much of a case for complaining about the lack of Rudders in Typhoon..unless you wanted to do some fancy aerobatics with the aircraft.

I mean..it may be nice...but I really don't see it providing as much of a problem to 99% of the people that will fly this game, as it seems to be for you. Modify your flight technique juuuust a bit...and get used to linked flight systems in the Next Generation of aircraft
^_^


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#557248 - 05/06/01 06:06 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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***************Rant mode on***************

I don't wish to pee anyone off, but unless you haven't flown in the real deal, I can't see what the problem is, this is the next to the real FM that is possible with unclasified info, it is endorsed by the Eurofighter consortium for christ sakes!, If this is unrealistic then phone up Eurofighter Gmbh, and tell them that typhoon doesn't fly like a real plane, they will laugh at you. If people took the time to read up on the real aircraft, they will realise that the rudder is NOT controlable by the pilot above a certain speed. The F-15 locks its rudders above certain speeds, F-16's do the same, hell I bet you that the F-22 does the same.....the rudder is used for low speed heading corections, not high speed direction changes, the momentum of something doing 500 Kts, and basicaly making it side slip is not what I call a very good idea. When using rudders, you dont actually change your flight path, you are still flying in roughly the same direction, but your nose is pointing somewhere else, you then bank to let your nose drop down a bit.

If you have played EF2000, you will notice the exact same thing, rudder does NOTHING above 350 Kts, even at 300Kts it's effect isn't huge, but at 180Kts is where you will find that EF2000's rudder works at it's best.........

***************rant mode off****************

If any of you understand that stuff I just wrote, then give yourself a pat on the back....



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#557249 - 05/06/01 06:09 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Rudder support would be very useful when landing.

Hey, Mike! Did we meet at Kevin's birthday bash?

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#557250 - 05/06/01 06:56 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Gel214th:
LOL!

You want to use rudders while going at over 400Kts??


Are you accustomed using rudders to line up a shot accurately on an Air To Air target in a fast moving Jet?



Err Gel,

I think we've already established the relationship between speed and using rudders, try reading all the posts in this thread before replying.

As for the second statement above; I've used rudders in 'real' prop' driven planes plenty of times to line up (granted it wasn't on a target), so I do have some real life experience to base this discussion on, have you?



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#557251 - 05/06/01 07:00 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by valleyboy:
***************Rant mode on***************
but at 180Kts is where you will find that EF2000's rudder works at it's best.........
***************rant mode off****************



Trouble is that even at those speeds you can't use the rudder, which is where this discussion has moved to, if you bother to read the other posts.

Jeeez.


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#557252 - 05/06/01 07:05 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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Quote:
Originally posted by *Hengist*:
Err Gel,

As for the second statement above; I've used rudders in 'real' prop' driven planes plenty of times to line up (granted it wasn't on a target), so I do have some real life experience to base this discussion on, have you?



I believe the Eurofighter is a high speed combat jet?
Not a prop plane?



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#557253 - 05/06/01 07:10 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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I also believe it's capable of flying at slower speeds whilst turning, rather than keeping the throttle fully open; i.e. something known as the optimum corner speed.

You read up on this, then perhaps you wouldn't get shot down online

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#557254 - 05/06/01 07:13 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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THBBBBBTTTTHHHHHHH!!

Even at corner speed I doubt rudders will help much.

It's much lower speeds, and when landing that they would come into play.

Wrong or right?


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#557255 - 05/06/01 07:23 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Gel,

Honestly mate, read the other posts in this thread. You'll see something discussed that's known as a YoYo

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#557256 - 05/06/01 08:07 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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I'm disgusted

There's a three-eighths gripley missing from the left gear hydraulic de-cuppler. Steve I demand you and the rest of the dev team come round to my house and apologise, then re-imburse me for the time i have wasted actually having to play the game the way it was designed.

This is very important to me. I don't want to have to learn to play a game. I want the game specifically written to the way I want to play. This game sucks, it wasn't written for me and it wastn't written for my particularly home-built jerry-rigged PC. Damn you to hell.

/sarcasm





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#557257 - 05/06/01 08:18 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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> Hey, Mike! Did we meet at Kevin's birthday bash?

Yeah, I was there. Which one are you? [g]



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#557258 - 05/06/01 09:40 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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>>and when landing that they would come into play.

No, not even then. These jets use the simple one-wing-down technique even at high crosswinds. Crab/Sideslip would put too much sideload (in German it's "Scherkraft", don't know how to translate it) on the gear. Except carrier based jets maybe.

Besides this, I really don't get it reading excerpts from EAW manuals or Mig-Alley here. We are talking about a new generation jet, no ?

Pollux

#557259 - 05/06/01 09:42 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 51
Gel214th Offline
Junior Member
Gel214th  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 51
Quote:
Originally posted by Pollux:
>>and when landing that they would come into play.

No, not even then. These jets use the simple one-wing-down technique even at high crosswinds.
Besides this, I really don't get it reading excerpts from EAW manuals or Mig-Alley here. We are talking about a new generation jet, no ?

Pollux


That's sort of what I thought as well



------------------
-Gel214th
CO 214th Annihilators

http://www.214th.com/flanker2


-Gel214th
#557260 - 05/06/01 10:20 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 669
Hitman IF Offline
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Hitman IF  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 669
Aberdeen, Scotland
The big problem I had at first without the rudder was trying to land the damn thing. It makes it so much harder than TAW!
This brings me onto another query - when I read the manual it tells me that approach speed is 130 with landing at 100kts. When I got down to that kind of speed, controllability went out the window, especially with no rudder.

------------------
---SVBS squad is playing Typhoon now!---


---SVBS squad is playing Lock On, ADF/TAW and Typhoon now at http://www.svbs.co.uk !---
#557261 - 05/06/01 11:38 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mike, remember the *very* tall guy (6'4"), black hair, black beard, sports jacket and tie who drank cider?

That was me. I'm at Stanmore from Tuesday.

quentin.stephens@baesytems.com or stephens_qt@am@mkvx01 on Teamlinks.

------------------
qts

#557262 - 05/06/01 11:41 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ah, hello Quentin, I figured it might be you. You've caught me correcting the developers about the loadouts. Kevin would have a bloody field day. [g]


------------------
Mike Rovardi
BAE Systems Warton
Please note opinions expressed in my posts are my own and not those of my employer

#557263 - 05/07/01 01:23 AM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,152
Cat Offline
Egyptian Mau
Cat  Offline
Egyptian Mau
Hotshot

Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,152
Somewhere....over the Rainbow
Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
I definitely agree...manual rudder is good! How about 'kicking rudder' to improve stafing? The next shot shows the result of shoving in rudder as the trigger is pulled.

....

Against a large target...an 'area' target as it is known...spreading out the impact pattern can have positive results. In RL, we used to hear guys talking about 'kicking the rudders' to better their strafe scores.


A technique I use often in the IL-2 pre-beta, when strafing groups of German tanks with 30mm cannon. Works best when in a shallow dive angle, and I've lawndarted a couple times by getting target fixated or getting too slow on approach. I can't see the utility in a2a vs. other fighters-you'd never be slow enough to be able to do it, really-but I HAVE used a rudder boot when approaching He-111s from slightly high and from the rear to mask the top gunner (with the He-111 the rudder masks him if you're positioned right). Done right, it plays tracers all over the bomber's wing. But you have to think fast or you'll either splat yourself on his rudder or fly right into the top gunner's cone of fire. Not a happy ending.

Too bad Typhoon has no manual rudder-I think it'd be handiest in slow-speed maneuvers preparatory to a crosswind landing. Very handy to have control of the yaw axis then....

Miao, Cat


Miao, Cat
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