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#557244 - 05/06/01 10:51 AM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
As for a 'skid maneuver' in the A-10...I've never heard of it.



Andy (and Pollux),

Have you heard of it being used in Prop' sims?

Do you still have the EAW manual? Take a look in there in the maneuvers section.

At slow speeds (slower than Manteau's indicated speed in the picture I agree), I see no reason why Manteau couldn't use it to the same effect as described in the EAW manual.


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[This message has been edited by *Hengist* (edited 05-06-2001).]

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#557245 - 05/06/01 02:02 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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I'm not sure what all of this has to do with Typhoon...but if your'e game, so am I!!

But first of all...I definitely agree...manual rudder is good! Now, if it turns out that the RW Eurofighter has a flight control system that would restrict pilot rudder input, then we are dealing with a different matter. I have no knowledge of the specifics of the subject.

And regarding the use of rudder to 'slice' the nose down at the top of a climb...that's OK too. That specific technique is not how a High Yo-Yo is taught however. In the classic High Yo-Yo, the assumption is that airspeed has not been significantly reduced. Closure has been reduced due to the geometry of the maneuver, not because of any speed loss in the climb.

Now, back to gunnery!

Here's the page out of the EAW manual that you may be referring to. For starters, sim manuals are not Shaw's Fighter Combat. My overall view of manuals is that they are written by amateurs. There are exceptions. Bonanni's F4 Strategy Guide and the F/A-18 Korea manual are excellent...but, of course, they are written by RL experts.



I'll seldom say 'never' to anything with regard to fighter employment...but in this situation (put yourself at position #1), is this how you would solve the gunnery problem (fly to position #2 and then yaw the airplane left to shoot)? I suppose such a thing could happen, but the wisdom of this technique escapes me. Yes, it does increase apparent target size, but the drawbacks are such that I do not see the overall advantage.

How about 'kicking rudder' to improve stafing? The next shot shows the result of shoving in rudder as the trigger is pulled.



Against a large target...an 'area' target as it is known...spreading out the impact pattern can have positive results. In RL, we used to hear guys talking about 'kicking the rudders' to better their strafe scores. I tried it...but only once, on a low angle strafe pass. I sprayed bullets all over the place, the plane yawed and rolled, and I scared myself pretty good trying to get the thing back under control before I hit the ground. After studying the idea, my conclusion was that the technique had application in only very specific circumstances and should not be attempted at low altitude.

In the final analysis, there is a difference between what 'can' be done and what 'should' be done. Technically, the rudder could be used to yaw the rounds into a target. In some very specific circimstances, this may work. But, as a rule, we did not teach A2A gunnery this way.

Andy

#557246 - 05/06/01 04:36 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Well at last I think we can all finally agree that it is a viable option... note the word 'option'.

Nothing personal Andy, but I just hate it when people publically say I'm wrong, I wont let go until I prove my point

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Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#557247 - 05/06/01 05:24 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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LOL!

You want to use rudders while going at over 400Kts??


Are you accustomed using rudders to line up a shot accurately on an Air To Air target in a fast moving Jet?

Why don't you just drift slightly right until you line up? Bank the plane just a little bit...thats a lot more accurate than Yawing the plane crazily left and right with rudders.

In short..I really don't think you have very much of a case for complaining about the lack of Rudders in Typhoon..unless you wanted to do some fancy aerobatics with the aircraft.

I mean..it may be nice...but I really don't see it providing as much of a problem to 99% of the people that will fly this game, as it seems to be for you. Modify your flight technique juuuust a bit...and get used to linked flight systems in the Next Generation of aircraft
^_^


-Gel214th
#557248 - 05/06/01 06:06 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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***************Rant mode on***************

I don't wish to pee anyone off, but unless you haven't flown in the real deal, I can't see what the problem is, this is the next to the real FM that is possible with unclasified info, it is endorsed by the Eurofighter consortium for christ sakes!, If this is unrealistic then phone up Eurofighter Gmbh, and tell them that typhoon doesn't fly like a real plane, they will laugh at you. If people took the time to read up on the real aircraft, they will realise that the rudder is NOT controlable by the pilot above a certain speed. The F-15 locks its rudders above certain speeds, F-16's do the same, hell I bet you that the F-22 does the same.....the rudder is used for low speed heading corections, not high speed direction changes, the momentum of something doing 500 Kts, and basicaly making it side slip is not what I call a very good idea. When using rudders, you dont actually change your flight path, you are still flying in roughly the same direction, but your nose is pointing somewhere else, you then bank to let your nose drop down a bit.

If you have played EF2000, you will notice the exact same thing, rudder does NOTHING above 350 Kts, even at 300Kts it's effect isn't huge, but at 180Kts is where you will find that EF2000's rudder works at it's best.........

***************rant mode off****************

If any of you understand that stuff I just wrote, then give yourself a pat on the back....



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#557249 - 05/06/01 06:09 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Rudder support would be very useful when landing.

Hey, Mike! Did we meet at Kevin's birthday bash?

------------------
qts

#557250 - 05/06/01 06:56 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Gel214th:
LOL!

You want to use rudders while going at over 400Kts??


Are you accustomed using rudders to line up a shot accurately on an Air To Air target in a fast moving Jet?



Err Gel,

I think we've already established the relationship between speed and using rudders, try reading all the posts in this thread before replying.

As for the second statement above; I've used rudders in 'real' prop' driven planes plenty of times to line up (granted it wasn't on a target), so I do have some real life experience to base this discussion on, have you?



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Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#557251 - 05/06/01 07:00 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by valleyboy:
***************Rant mode on***************
but at 180Kts is where you will find that EF2000's rudder works at it's best.........
***************rant mode off****************



Trouble is that even at those speeds you can't use the rudder, which is where this discussion has moved to, if you bother to read the other posts.

Jeeez.


------------------
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Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#557252 - 05/06/01 07:05 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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Gel214th Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by *Hengist*:
Err Gel,

As for the second statement above; I've used rudders in 'real' prop' driven planes plenty of times to line up (granted it wasn't on a target), so I do have some real life experience to base this discussion on, have you?



I believe the Eurofighter is a high speed combat jet?
Not a prop plane?



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-Gel214th
#557253 - 05/06/01 07:10 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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I also believe it's capable of flying at slower speeds whilst turning, rather than keeping the throttle fully open; i.e. something known as the optimum corner speed.

You read up on this, then perhaps you wouldn't get shot down online

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Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#557254 - 05/06/01 07:13 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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Gel214th Offline
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THBBBBBTTTTHHHHHHH!!

Even at corner speed I doubt rudders will help much.

It's much lower speeds, and when landing that they would come into play.

Wrong or right?


-Gel214th
#557255 - 05/06/01 07:23 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Gel,

Honestly mate, read the other posts in this thread. You'll see something discussed that's known as a YoYo

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Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#557256 - 05/06/01 08:07 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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I'm disgusted

There's a three-eighths gripley missing from the left gear hydraulic de-cuppler. Steve I demand you and the rest of the dev team come round to my house and apologise, then re-imburse me for the time i have wasted actually having to play the game the way it was designed.

This is very important to me. I don't want to have to learn to play a game. I want the game specifically written to the way I want to play. This game sucks, it wasn't written for me and it wastn't written for my particularly home-built jerry-rigged PC. Damn you to hell.

/sarcasm





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#557257 - 05/06/01 08:18 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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> Hey, Mike! Did we meet at Kevin's birthday bash?

Yeah, I was there. Which one are you? [g]



------------------
Mike Rovardi
BAE Systems Warton
Please note opinions expressed in my posts are my own and not those of my employer

#557258 - 05/06/01 09:40 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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>>and when landing that they would come into play.

No, not even then. These jets use the simple one-wing-down technique even at high crosswinds. Crab/Sideslip would put too much sideload (in German it's "Scherkraft", don't know how to translate it) on the gear. Except carrier based jets maybe.

Besides this, I really don't get it reading excerpts from EAW manuals or Mig-Alley here. We are talking about a new generation jet, no ?

Pollux

#557259 - 05/06/01 09:42 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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Gel214th Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pollux:
>>and when landing that they would come into play.

No, not even then. These jets use the simple one-wing-down technique even at high crosswinds.
Besides this, I really don't get it reading excerpts from EAW manuals or Mig-Alley here. We are talking about a new generation jet, no ?

Pollux


That's sort of what I thought as well



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#557260 - 05/06/01 10:20 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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The big problem I had at first without the rudder was trying to land the damn thing. It makes it so much harder than TAW!
This brings me onto another query - when I read the manual it tells me that approach speed is 130 with landing at 100kts. When I got down to that kind of speed, controllability went out the window, especially with no rudder.

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---SVBS squad is playing Lock On, ADF/TAW and Typhoon now at http://www.svbs.co.uk !---
#557261 - 05/06/01 11:38 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Mike, remember the *very* tall guy (6'4"), black hair, black beard, sports jacket and tie who drank cider?

That was me. I'm at Stanmore from Tuesday.

quentin.stephens@baesytems.com or stephens_qt@am@mkvx01 on Teamlinks.

------------------
qts

#557262 - 05/06/01 11:41 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Ah, hello Quentin, I figured it might be you. You've caught me correcting the developers about the loadouts. Kevin would have a bloody field day. [g]


------------------
Mike Rovardi
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Please note opinions expressed in my posts are my own and not those of my employer

#557263 - 05/07/01 01:23 AM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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Cat Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
I definitely agree...manual rudder is good! How about 'kicking rudder' to improve stafing? The next shot shows the result of shoving in rudder as the trigger is pulled.

....

Against a large target...an 'area' target as it is known...spreading out the impact pattern can have positive results. In RL, we used to hear guys talking about 'kicking the rudders' to better their strafe scores.


A technique I use often in the IL-2 pre-beta, when strafing groups of German tanks with 30mm cannon. Works best when in a shallow dive angle, and I've lawndarted a couple times by getting target fixated or getting too slow on approach. I can't see the utility in a2a vs. other fighters-you'd never be slow enough to be able to do it, really-but I HAVE used a rudder boot when approaching He-111s from slightly high and from the rear to mask the top gunner (with the He-111 the rudder masks him if you're positioned right). Done right, it plays tracers all over the bomber's wing. But you have to think fast or you'll either splat yourself on his rudder or fly right into the top gunner's cone of fire. Not a happy ending.

Too bad Typhoon has no manual rudder-I think it'd be handiest in slow-speed maneuvers preparatory to a crosswind landing. Very handy to have control of the yaw axis then....

Miao, Cat


Miao, Cat
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