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#557224 - 05/05/01 06:59 PM This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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The above screenshot shows just what I mean.

I want to line up on the target - I can't use the rudder like you would normally do - you have to roll right 90 deg, then pull up, then shoot. Or roll 45 deg and pull up and then straighten out. It's stupid - and unrealistic.

*PLEASE* can Rage do something about this?

Cheers,
Manteau

[This message has been edited by Manteau (edited 05-05-2001).]

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#557225 - 05/05/01 07:31 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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I do hope so. What also bugs me about there being no rudder is trying to perform a High/Low YoYo when in a dogfight, you need the rudder or you have to fly it as you describe above.

Please Rage, give us a manual rudder. At the moment flying it feels like an X-Wing or a TIE fighter, and not a plane.

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Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#557226 - 05/05/01 07:40 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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Manteau

>>It's stupid - and unrealistic.<<

It's neither. Try this. Go to the Air Combat Corner here at SimHQ and read my A2G series with particular attention to the gunnery section. Note the discussion of rudder effect on projectile ballistics.

Then do this. Fire up one of your other sims...one that has a manual rudder. MiG Alley will be fine if you have it. Point your nose at the ground and fire off a long burst. Push in the rudder as you fire. Note the path of the tracers. Then push in and hold the rudder. Now fire another burst...note the tracer path. You will graphically see why rudder input gives you a sight picture that lies to you.

A2A gunnery is flown 'feet on the floor'. Rudder equals yaw, and yaw is bad.

In this screenshot, you should bank slightly right and get the pipper drifting right. Just before it gets to the target, roll left to kill your drift. Now re-assess the pipper position. Continue to bank and raise/lower the nose until you get the correct sight picture.

Andy

#557227 - 05/05/01 07:44 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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Hengist

Did you se my earlier post on rudder use in a Yo-Yo?

I'm sorry, but, as far as rudder use is concerned, your BFM knowledge is wrong on this maneuver. How can I help you get it straight?

Andy

#557228 - 05/05/01 08:01 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Andy,

I didn't see it, I'll do a search for YoYo's.

I'm referring to a slow speed YoYo, between 300kts & 400kts. You telling me you don't use it under those conditions? I know that WW2 prop' pilots did (obviously they were going a triffle slower than the above).

Also, didn't the A10 Warthog use a skid maneuver using the rudder when involved in the Road to Basra turkey shoot during the Gulf war. I've read many reports that say it did.

I'm looking forward to your reply.

------------------


Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley



[This message has been edited by *Hengist* (edited 05-05-2001).]

#557229 - 05/05/01 08:17 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Hengist

your BFM knowledge is wrong on this maneuver.
Andy



Ok I'm gonna quote a guy who goes by the name of Andy Bush...

"In the High Yo-Yo, the rudder may improve roll rate if the pilot has bled his speed to a low level prior to initiating the pull down."

So it looks like the rudder is used in a YoYo maneuver, and I'm not wrong.

No need to apologise Andy




------------------
\:\)

Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#557230 - 05/05/01 09:40 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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Hengist

That other Andy Bush is a dottering old airline pilot who still thinks he's a young fighter pilot with a 32 inch waist and lots of hair.

Here's what he was really trying to say...

The term 'slow speed yo-yo' is a bit of a misnomer. There is no maneuver by that name in traditional BFM. Instead, there are the Low Yo-Yo and High Yo-Yo maneuvers.

The Low Yo-Yo maneuver is sometimes also known as an 'acceleration maneuver'. It Is a relatively low G maneuver that uses cut off to increase closure on a target. Rudder is used only to coordinate aileron input.

The High Yo-Yo is a different matter. It is an aggressive maneuver where the pilot uses flight path geometry to control closure and prevent a flight path overshoot. In doing so, he may find that is speed has bled off at the apex of his pull up. At that point (relatively slow speed), he will want to use rudder to coordinate his roll to begin the pull down.

In either case, note that rudder is used only to coordinate the roll...to prevent adverse yaw. The rudder is not turning the plane, it is only making the roll more effective. For most High Yo-Yos, the pilot could fly without rudder input and not really notice much difference.

As for a 'skid maneuver' in the A-10...I've never heard of it. Perhaps the reference was to using the rudder to move the gun line around while shooting...against an area target where precise aiming was not needed, this might help open up the impact area.

Against a point target, there is no such thing as a 'skid maneuver'. In a high crosswind situation where the A-10 is experiencing a rapid drift rate, it is possible to yaw the gun into the wind to increase impact density. I've done it and taught it as a technique...but, as a general rule, I wouldn't endorse it for the average pilot.

Andy

#557231 - 05/05/01 09:54 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Just as an aside, Manteau, that screenshot shows you doing 425 kts. Even if you could control your rudder directly, it'd have no effect - you're going too fast.


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Mike Rovardi
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Please note opinions expressed in my posts are my own and not those of my employer

#557232 - 05/05/01 11:07 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Magnet,

You sound like a man who'd know... What's the average corner speed for the EFT?

Andy.
"That other Andy Bush is a dottering old airline pilot who still thinks he's a young fighter pilot with a 32 inch waist and lots of hair."

lol, nice one

------------------


Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

[This message has been edited by *Hengist* (edited 05-05-2001).]

#557233 - 05/05/01 11:10 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Sorry, I work weapons and stores release, not flight mechanics and controls. [g]

Besides which, exact capabilities of Typhoon are still restricted. I can't tell you anything you won't find on a website somewhere. Sorry.


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Mike Rovardi
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#557234 - 05/05/01 11:22 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Andy,

Okay, you're the one with the experience

However, the only link about it I can find is this:

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/guns3/guns3.shtml

Unless I'm blind, all I can see is talk about the pipper showing you the past, not what happens if you shoot now.

Fair enough about the lining up - thanks for the info.

But the point remains. If I fire a burst of cannon and I can see the tracer is going to the left of the target (ignore the pipper) - are you saying that putting in right rudder and firing again won't correct that to some extent? It seems to in other sims...

Cheers,
Manteau

[This message has been edited by Manteau (edited 05-05-2001).]

#557235 - 05/05/01 11:25 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Magnet:
Besides which, exact capabilities of Typhoon are still restricted. I can't tell you anything you won't find on a website somewhere. Sorry.





Woah, I was only after a quick guestimate. Anyone else know, or know of a website that does... I don't


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Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#557236 - 05/05/01 11:30 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by *Hengist*:

Woah, I was only after a quick guestimate. Anyone else know, or know of a website that does... I don't


This one's quite good:

http://www.eurofighter.pso-online.com/index_dom.php

Cheers,
Manteau

#557237 - 05/05/01 11:34 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Cheers Manteau.

------------------
\:\)

Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#557238 - 05/05/01 11:44 PM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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#557239 - 05/06/01 01:09 AM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Manteau

This is the article:

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/atgbasicsp3/atg3.shtml

This picture from the article illustrates the point.

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/atgbasicsp3/fig14.jpg

Andy



Andy,

I'll take your word for it - you've had the experience and the training, and I haven't.

However, this runs against what happens in F4 (not saying F4 is realistic, and I haven't tried MigAlley).

I use this "technique" in F4 quite a bit and TAW (be it right or wrong) and it seems to work, so that's why I thought it would be useful in Typhoon.

Manteau

#557240 - 05/06/01 01:16 AM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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I agree Manteau.

When someone starts commenting on the realism aspects of EFT, certain people are quick to point out that it's a Lite sim.

However, we now appear to be getting into the bounds of realism over whether or not a rudder should be used in certain situations.

Nothing I've read so far convinces me that there shouldn't be a manual rudder in this game.

I remember putting on my MiG Alley site that a quick rudder deflection when firing rockets gives a nice spread and increases your chance of hitting the target. It may not be a real-life tactic, but it works well in that sim.

All I know, is that I want manual rudder control, it would make EFT (the game) better

------------------
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Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

#557241 - 05/06/01 07:00 AM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  
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You know Andy, not to contradict you, but I have seen interviews of WW2 & Korean Air Combat veterans discuss their techniques in strafing ground targets with guns. In fact, I remember one Korean Ace describing a diffiult dogfight where he finished the guy off with a little bit of rudder (on DISC Channel, "The Real Top Guns"). They directly state that they used their rudders to increase the kill zone of their run. Now, I can see how using rudders to try to control the bomb impact point can screw things up, but in the particular screenshot, I think using rudders would be beneficial. In fact, I have used my rudders in EAW, CFS2, MiG Alley, as well as several modern sims in A-A guns to great effect. Perhaps the effect you describe is not fully implemented, but the technique is certainly valid, at least in most simulations.

[This message has been edited by Silverswift (edited 05-06-2001).]


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#557242 - 05/06/01 10:31 AM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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Here's some input from a German Luftwaffe pilot (not me, it's a quote from a german forum), basically the same what Andy is saying :
--Yaw is too inefficient to get adequate nose movement. More effective is too roll and pull, means rotate the lift vector where you want to go, everything else is waste of energy. Lift vector control is the key in dogfights together with energy management (AOA control). Yaw ist only needed to roll at high AOA, because here the rudder is more effective than aileron.
And with fly by wire planes the computer calculates, if rudder/aileron is needed to execute the maneuver the pilot requested with the stick. Of course the pilot can give rudder inputs, but it's not necessary.--

To sum it up, it wouldn't hurt to have rudder control in Typhoon, but it's not a show stopper not to have it.
From my side there are more important things like wingman status info and improvements of wingman AI. I hate Wingmen going suicidal and in roughly 80% of the cases not being able to evade missiles. I hear "Wingman down" in every mission, often he is down but sometimes he isn't. I also don't understand why the HUD declutter removes the velocity vector and guncross and why there are no HUD colour options.

Pollux


[This message has been edited by Pollux (edited 05-06-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Pollux (edited 05-06-2001).]

#557243 - 05/06/01 10:42 AM Re: This lack of rudder is driving me nuts!  

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We know what Andy is saying and we're not doubting him, and your right it aint a show stopper. Its just that we don't agree with him when it comes to using a rudder in a game, especially a Lite sim

When I was flying online last night in a dogfight and using a YoYo at around 270kts; On the downleg of the YoYo I wanted to use the rudder to 'slice' the nose down below the horizon, but I couldn't. Consequently it wasn't as effective as in other sims that do have a manual rudder.

------------------


Hengist.

Hengist's MiG Alley Site.
http://www.hengist.co.uk/MiGAlley

[This message has been edited by *Hengist* (edited 05-06-2001).]

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