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#556323 - 04/10/01 09:44 PM Re: Demo comments - Realism  
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I was really dissapointed with the rolling demo. The graphics were definatly NOT up to par, seemed just re-hash of the old games and not much effort put into doing anything new or better than before. Sure the glass cockpit was "shiny" big deal. The clouds were ugly and not much better than those on a novalogic game. The explosions/missles were very average at best, not what I expect from a new sim. Dissapointed to see the flaps not moving when they should, this is basic stuff guys???

The Terrain was flat ugly, just ugly..no improvements on early games, I preferred the ones in EF2000 even if they were openGL'd it would look better?

If you want to see how at least, it SHOULD look..check out the shots from ACE COMBAT4..bare in mind this is on the PS2...the PS2 for crying out loud..??!

http://ps2.ign.com/previews/15726.html

I wish Typhoon looked as good as this..

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#556324 - 04/10/01 10:52 PM Re: Demo comments - Realism  

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Thanks for that multiple post Neo-Racer.

Can I take it that you don't like the look of this game? Copying and pasting comments from your other posts seems a bit excessive.

By now the Typhoon code is a year old (Or around that?) and has been designed to run fine on low end PC systems. Ace Combat 4 looks pretty in the thumbnails, but the larger pics I've seen seem both blurry and excessively jagged. (Going by the pics at the URL you posted elsewhere.)

In Typhoon I hope to have a nice AI, nice campaign and decent high res support, so that's what I'll be spending my money on. I hope you enjoy Ace Combat 4 as much as I expect to enjoy Typhoon.

SanC

#556325 - 04/10/01 11:10 PM Re: Demo comments - Realism  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Neo_Racer:
I was really dissapointed with the rolling demo.


Hi Neo_Racer, welcome to the Typhoon forum.

It is not necessary to post multiple copies of the same text, most folk here read everything, so I've removed the duplicates.

If I can help, just ask.

Badboy

#556326 - 04/11/01 09:09 PM Re: Demo comments - Realism  
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>>Out of interest, does anyone believe that they would have time to study the movements of another planes control surface in real life anyway?<<

Well, if they do believe it, they are sadly mistaken.

Andy

#556327 - 04/12/01 12:22 PM Re: Demo comments - Realism  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Neo_Racer:
I was really dissapointed with the rolling demo. The graphics were definatly NOT up to par, seemed just re-hash of the old games and not much effort put into doing anything new or better than before. Sure the glass cockpit was "shiny" big deal. The clouds were ugly and not much better than those on a novalogic game. The explosions/missles were very average at best, not what I expect from a new sim. Dissapointed to see the flaps not moving when they should, this is basic stuff guys???

The Terrain was flat ugly, just ugly..no improvements on early games, I preferred the ones in EF2000 even if they were openGL'd it would look better?

If you want to see how at least, it SHOULD look..check out the shots from ACE COMBAT4..bare in mind this is on the PS2...the PS2 for crying out loud..??!

http://ps2.ign.com/previews/15726.html

I wish Typhoon looked as good as this..


OK..OK..we heard you the first time.

That game does look nice, but nice as it may look; a game with just 25 mission isn't doing it for me. Typhoon offers us more than just pretty graphics.

And while Typhoon's graphics are not up there with someother sims; there's just something abut the look of the game I like. There's a crispness and a lack a clutter that works.


[This message has been edited by Uroboros (edited 04-12-2001).]

#556328 - 04/25/01 09:25 PM Re: Demo comments - Realism  
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yea sorry bout the multiple posts..I think I was on something, and did'nt think anyone was paying attention anyway.

Well from the rolling demo and other comments, it just seemed like it was overly simplistic. I want to like it, I've been a fan of DID since F29 Retaliator on the Amiga!
I know DID has changed a lot since then, just seems like the finesse and attention to detail that was in their last few games is gone. Ef2000 and F22 were not complex, I don't see why they needed to dumb it down even further just to be more attractive, I thought Novalogic always had that role? I think if they had gone all out and really made a leap above what Ef2000 was it would still have been very accessible game. Hey cant change that now and I really wish success for Typhoon..after I play the demo I may even buy it myself, but it it is a lot simpler than EF2000 for example its not for me.
As for Ace Combat 4, yea they are dealing with a lot simpler, smaller size game, but looks why theres no reason why any other developers cant try and attain a great visual realism, and I thought AC4 has done a fantastic job. Granted PC developers have to cater for the current lowest denominator and consoles don't..but still..I cant wait for the future..my 1.5 gig is burning for some action

#556329 - 04/25/01 11:11 PM Re: Demo comments - Realism  
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Somewhere....over the Rainbow
Oops. Repeat post.

[This message has been edited by Cat (edited 04-25-2001).]


Miao, Cat
#556330 - 04/27/01 01:09 AM Re: Demo comments - Realism  

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this whole thing sounds like a step backwards. It's time for a flight sim to push the envelope. We have PCs more powerful than the Computers on the Space Shuttle, but yet we can't get a simulator on a PC to push technology and detail any more than sims 3 or 4 years old.
When will companies learn that this "Dumbed down" "in between" stuff is useless. It's either all or not. Your not going to get Quake people to play a flight game and your not going to get Hardcore flightsimmers to use a "Dumbed Down" sim/game. Either give us an improvment from sims 2 years old and push this new hardware like it should, create good clean code, and give the Simmers what they want or don't make the damn thing in the first place.
I'm tired of waiting on a new sim to come out and all the hype that comes with it only to be disappointed.
Makers of these sims claim it's lack of interest that kills sims, but honestly there is a lot of interest in a GOOD sim. Simmers dont want crap and they will be the first to pick it a part. If you want to sell flight sims, then make good ones with bells and whistles that simmers want.
I think you guys are getting a little too far ahead and excited, if it's released it will be released, then you can decide. So far i haven't seen or heard anything to make me want to hop a plane to London to pick up a copy.
It's not lack of interest that kills flight sims, it's crappy flight sims that kill interest.
This will piss some people off, but oh well get over it, it's just an opinion and Im intitled to it.

#556331 - 04/27/01 06:19 AM Re: Demo comments - Realism  

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Seawolf,
You are 100% correct. As much as I am looking forward to Typhoon, I realize that it is not a very ambitious sim and I fear that it will sell poorly, mainly because of the reasons you highlighted above (along with very poor marketing). What could have been a new classic will just likely turn out to be slightly better than mediocre. Will people still be raving about Typhoon 3 years from now (like Falcon4 or EAW)? No. Will it still be on anyone's hard drive by that point. Probably not. The main problem is that Rage developed the sim from its earliest days to be ported over to consoles like the Playstation2 (an option which never materialized), and the sim will most likely forever be hampered by this decision.

While short-lived games for the attention-deficit console crowd may make perfect sense, they do not trasfer to the PC platfrom at all. Mario Bros. and Quake fans don't want to play aircraft games. And PC simmers don't want to be fooled into buying mere games (and we have seen plenty of producer/publishers try to do that before). The only sims that are going to make names for themselves today are the ones that go the farthest to satisfy the old-school simmers out there, but still offer solid gameplay and innovation to make the rest of the gaming world stand up and notice. Falcon 4.0 could have very easily done this if it had been completed before it was shipped. Comanche-Hokum could probably have done this if it was better marketed. Il-2 may have a chance at doing this, but probably will not due to the difficulty it is going to have by having to follow in the footsteps of self-destructive companies like Hasbro, Psygnosis, and EA, who opted to take the easy way out by purposely killing off sims in order to focus on the large, but short-term profits to be found with the Pokemon crowd. To Rage's credit I don't belive this is their sin; their fault is a simple lack of ambition.

[This message has been edited by Fishbed77 (edited 04-27-2001).]

#556332 - 04/27/01 06:28 AM Re: Demo comments - Realism  
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Quote:
Originally posted by 14th_Seawolf:
this whole thing sounds like a step backwards. It's time for a flight sim to push the envelope. We have PCs more powerful than the Computers on the Space Shuttle, but yet we can't get a simulator on a PC to push technology and detail any more than sims 3 or 4 years old.
When will companies learn that this "Dumbed down" "in between" stuff is useless. It's either all or not. Your not going to get Quake people to play a flight game and your not going to get Hardcore flightsimmers to use a "Dumbed Down" sim/game. Either give us an improvment from sims 2 years old and push this new hardware like it should, create good clean code, and give the Simmers what they want or don't make the damn thing in the first place.
I'm tired of waiting on a new sim to come out and all the hype that comes with it only to be disappointed.
Makers of these sims claim it's lack of interest that kills sims, but honestly there is a lot of interest in a GOOD sim. Simmers dont want crap and they will be the first to pick it a part. If you want to sell flight sims, then make good ones with bells and whistles that simmers want.
I think you guys are getting a little too far ahead and excited, if it's released it will be released, then you can decide. So far i haven't seen or heard anything to make me want to hop a plane to London to pick up a copy.
It's not lack of interest that kills flight sims, it's crappy flight sims that kill interest.
This will piss some people off, but oh well get over it, it's just an opinion and Im intitled to it.


Sorry I don't agree with this all or nothing notion of yours. There's always going to be a place for sims that fall between the extremes. Not all simmers are looking sims that match the complexity of Falcon4, nor do we want to get stuck with only Novalogic sims to play with.

#556333 - 04/27/01 11:44 AM Re: Demo comments - Realism  

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i second Umbros on that, as much as i love sims i am NOT a real fighter pilot and i do not (like most people out there) have hours of my life to dedicate to learning a whole host of non-combat related systems every time i get a new sim (like TACAN channels, JFS startups, backup power, fuel transfer, etc etc etc.). Other genres of games dont ask this why should flight sims, do you think counter strike would be as popular as it is if you had tons of buttons, no that game is lean and focused (unlike many sims) like many great but still fairly hardcore games that have been successful such as Gran Turismo, Deus Ex, System Shock II, Baldurs Gate or Nascar 3, these games are not dumbed down, they just dont waste time with extranious features. Maybe more simulations should take a leaf out of their book, they might acually sell some copies.

#556334 - 04/27/01 12:44 PM Re: Demo comments - Realism  
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I don't really care if Typhoon is on my hard drive in 3 years or if it's an instant classic. I just want enjoy the game now. And it it gives me a year of fun I'll be happy. In the end all that will matter is if it's a fun game. And whether it's hard core or not won't detract from that to most people. For the rest there's alway the lastest Falcon4 "patch"



[This message has been edited by Uroboros (edited 04-27-2001).]

#556335 - 04/27/01 01:58 PM Re: Demo comments - Realism  

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Uruboros and Joelhume,
I think you guys may be missing Seawolf's and my own points. While a lot of button pushing may be nice, I think we are both looking for a full-featured sim. Typhoon may be a great start, but where is the instant action mode? Where is the mission builder? Where are the separate training missions? Where is ACMI? Where is the ability to mod aspects of the game? Where is the reference section that made Janes sims reek of authenticity (even the weak ones like Fighters Anthology)? Where is the ability to interect with the items in the cockpit (simplified is OK - the real Typhoon is simplified - just make it believable)?

I know Typhoon will feature an advanced dynamic campaign and a limited multiplayer mode, but the concept of an air war in the future opens up so many possibilities that it appears Typhoon will not, in its current form, take advantage of. Things like JTIDS, J-Stars, AWACS, and in-flight refuelling. Cool things full of techie buzzwords sure to attract a new audience. I know the locale of Iceland was selected so these things could be left out in some justifiable way. But we all know Typhoon would be qualitatively better if they were included.

Am I asking for a heap of switchology? No. The fewer keyboard commands it takes to navigate the Typhoons avionics, the better. Just make sure the avionics are there. I think that will go much futher to impressing those outside of the sim community. If they see simulation that offers all these great features I mentioned above, is bug-free (which, based on earlier experiences with DID products, is almost guaranteed) and does not take a PhD to play, Rage will have a success on their hands. And it has to be fun. Both in the short term and long terms - for intitial sales and so the game will have "legs." Oh yeah - and good marketing too - a field where Rage has definitely stumbled. They will have the old school hardcore simmers on their side (come on, we all loved EF2000) and they stand to snag a good deal of the general gaming market with good reviews and other good press. As is stands now, it looks like Typhoon risks alienating the old school guys while not offering enough features to hook the new guys.

[This message has been edited by Fishbed77 (edited 04-27-2001).]

#556336 - 04/27/01 02:45 PM Re: Demo comments - Realism  

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Listen guys, It really isn't fair to jump the gun, but my only point is based on questions asked here and reviews, screenshots, etc that If you are going to make a flight Sim then make a Flight sim.
My personal wish list for a simulator:

accurate flight model
accurate avionics
accurate environment
coop and head to head multiplayer
good graphics (scenery and environment- would love to see a combat flight sim with accurate weather conditions and the graphics to showcase it)
Good missions ( it doesn't have to be a 4 hour trip to get to the target, but it does have to be believable along with some imagination thrown in.

Im rambling, but I hope Typhoon turns out to be fun. I consider myself to be a hardcore simmer, but i still like to fly the easy ones to, I just hope its fun and believable at the same time.

#556337 - 04/27/01 05:41 PM Re: Demo comments - Realism  

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To Fishbed and Seawolf primarily.
The point seems to have been lost that Typhoon is NOT a flight sim. It's a war/battle game with flight sim elements.
It's about managing a war campaign not an aircraft.
It's also about appealing to a larger game buying public than the TOO FEW gathered here.

Quote: I know the locale of Iceland was selected so these things (JTIDS, J-Stars, AWACS, and in-flight refuelling)could be left out in some justifiable way. But we all know Typhoon would be qualitatively better if they were included.
/Quote

Leaving those things out improves the game immeasurably. Maybe not knowing where every plane and SAM is from the outset makes you a better Typhoon pilot.

I'll tell you in a week's time.

regards

W

#556338 - 04/28/01 08:32 AM Re: Demo comments - Realism  

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Wolfkiller,
I think you may be missing the point. I am well aware of what Typhoon is/is not. I was just offering suggestions as to what could have made it a classic and would have opened up its target audience to include a much larger range of gamers. Heck, if someone has an aversion to realistic things such as AWACS and JSTARS, I suppose Rage could have included an option to play with or without those things, though I don't seem to recall them ever hindering gameplay in any other game.

#556339 - 04/28/01 09:28 AM Re: Demo comments - Realism  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fishbed77:
Wolfkiller,
I think you may be missing the point. I am well aware of what Typhoon is/is not. I was just offering suggestions as to what could have made it a classic and would have opened up its target audience to include a much larger range of gamers. Heck, if someone has an aversion to realistic things such as AWACS and JSTARS, I suppose Rage could have included an option to play with or without those things, though I don't seem to recall them ever hindering gameplay in any other game.


Of course your arguement (as valid as it might be in regards to sims in general) is pointless as Typhoon is done. Whatever the reason for DIDs chosing to go in the directin they did with Typhoon; I'm sure a large part of it might just have had to do with the state of sim market at the moment.
Unfortunately the perfect sim you describe probably isn't viable these days. The fiancial returns probably wouldn't justify time and resources required for a sim on the same level of Falcon4.

But who knows, maybe if DID/Rage choose to do another sim in the future they'll take the basic Typhoon engine, throw in goodies from EF-2000 and F22-TAW. if not htem someone else will.

Until then I want my Typhoon!!!

#556340 - 04/28/01 01:48 PM Re: Demo comments - Realism  

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Uroborus,
I take offense to your notion that my argument is pointless. I realize that Typhoon is done (and has been for many months now). I am one of the ones who have pre-ordered it (on http://www.softwarefirst.com - a great price too - 22.99 pounds) and I am looking forward to it arriving on my doorstep in the next week or two! However, I believe that, with a little more ambition, it could have achieved far greater sales than I fear it will get. I could be wrong (and I hope that I am). My ideas, however, can not apply to Typhoon, as it has gone gold already, but I hope Rage and other publishers would take them into account in the future.

#556341 - 04/28/01 02:00 PM Re: Demo comments - Realism  

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If the AI handles the rudder, can it cope with cross/wind landings/takeoffs? Or is there any wind?

#556342 - 04/28/01 02:58 PM Re: Demo comments - Realism  
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(from Fishbed77)

>>I know Typhoon will feature an advanced dynamic campaign and a limited multiplayer mode, but the concept of an air war in the future opens up so many possibilities that it appears Typhoon will not, in its current form, take advantage of. Things like JTIDS, J-Stars, AWACS, and in-flight refuelling. Cool things full of techie buzzwords sure to attract a new audience. I know the locale of Iceland was selected so these things could be left out in some justifiable way. But we all know Typhoon would be qualitatively better if they were included.<<

Well written post and some very good points.

Here's my take on the AWACS, JTIDS, and JSTARS items. These systems provide the pilot with increased info on the battle area, often at a range beyond what the pilot's own avionics can survey. Let's focus for a second on how such outside systems would fit into a typical air combat game.

First, there is the interface between the pilot and the outside system. This is either manual (he communicates with them directly) or automatic (the data is transmitted to him without being asked for). In either case, the data eventually arrives at the fighter and is displayed accordingly.

Typhoon essentially assumes the 'automatic' type of interface. The Typhoon player does not have to communicate directly with the outside system(s).

Secondly, we have the follow-on nature of the game once the data is received. At this point, I see no difference in the remaining game play. The pilot has his info display (MFDs, radar scope, HMD, whatever...)and he then begins the engagement. How he got the data is no longer important.

In Typhoon, we basically assume a wide range of data input to you and your avionics. It is as if you had all of those outside systems working for you, even though they are not actually present in the game. So, for those that want to simulate the projected nature of an air combat environment where advanced surveillance and situational awareness systems are in play, they should enjoy Typhoon. The info and data are there...how it gets to you is simplified, no doubt about that.

Some may find this level of simplicity less than what they were hoping for. I understand 'hardcore' simming as much as anyone. To these good folks, I would just ask...just exactly what would you do with an AWACS or JSTARS if one was flying around in the sim? Use your comm suite to 'talk' to it? Ask for an updated position of friendly and enemy forces? Probably so.

Granted, you cannot do that in Typhoon. The end result is the same, however. You get the advanced data input on your MFDs. Then you go off on your mission to kill the target and win the game.

Hopefully, you'll have a great time doing that, and in the meantime, you won't get too caught up in lamenting the simplification of the game.

>>As is stands now, it looks like Typhoon risks alienating the old school guys while not offering enough features to hook the new guys.<<

As it stands right now, none of you know the full scope of this game. And I won't say anymore now other than to say that I think you are going to be very happy campers.


Andy

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