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#555913 - 03/22/01 07:23 PM Re: Typhoon Gun Kill  
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Fishbed

Here is an IRST shot of that Su just before he got shot. This is how all of the IRST and TI targets look.




Here is a TI 'boom' shot...maybe a little artistic license going on here!



Andy

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#555914 - 03/22/01 07:30 PM Re: Typhoon Gun Kill  
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Crash

The target data box gives target altitude in feet above sea level (MSL).

The Eurofighter altimeter works in two ways. Below 5000', it reads out in feet above the ground (AGL)...like a radar altimeter. Above 5000', it reads out in feet MSL.

The AGL feature makes it handy for low altitude maneuvering. The terrain avoidance system (TERPROM) operates off of GPS location and stored elevation data to preclude the requirement of having a radar altimeter transmitting...to deny the bad guys the possibility of detecting the radar altimeter transmissions.

Jedi

By 2015, the English have come to their senses and have installed the gun back into the Eurofighter.

Andy

#555915 - 03/22/01 07:40 PM Re: Typhoon Gun Kill  

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Andy, thanks for the reply. It's not a big deal, I guess, but it sure would be nice if it were a little more realistic. I recall Rage stating that Typhoon would have realistic avionics and their limitations, but just have their use simplified (less buttons to push). The IRST problem doesn't look like it would be too hard to fix, and Rage certainly has enough time before the June (or whatever it is) release date.

Tracer[formerly of CS], there were air to air gun kills as recently as the Falklands war made by Sea Harriers against Argentine aicraft; I am sure of this. Also, during the Gulf War, an airborne helicopter or two was destroyed by the cannon of A-10s. I don't know about more recent actions like those over Ethiopia/Eritrea, or even the Iran/Iraq war back in the 1980s.

#555916 - 03/22/01 08:12 PM Re: Typhoon Gun Kill  
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Fishbed

I think we all share your desire for technical correctness. In this case, about all that is not quite right is the addition of color to the IRST/TI depictions of explosions. In RL, these would appear only as bright splashes of white light. In this game, if color is added to highten the player's enjoyment, it's OK with me. My bottom line, as always, is the issue of fun and 'immersion'. If this feature adds fun and increases a sense of immersion, then no harm done.

Now...on the issue of technical accuracy in this game...here's a cropped shot of a target locked in the HMD A2A gun mode.



Please compare the IRST image to the actual target perspective. Then look at the target lock box symbology, and, in particular, the aspect indications. Everything you see here is exactly correct. The problem is that most players do not recognize the complexity of this symbology, and therefore, don't appreciate it. This doesn't really bother me. If they do, fine. If they don't...that's fine too, since a complete understanding is not necessary to play the game.

So...how is a player to understand this? Easy! Read the Official Strategy Guide. In it, some clown will explain all of this!

Andy

#555917 - 03/22/01 08:14 PM Re: Typhoon Gun Kill  

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Damn right Andy.

I remember the row over on rec.aviation.miliatry when the announcement was made. A cannon is not a neccesary _offensive_ weapon. But it is a neccesary defensive one. I would want any edge that can get my pilots and my aircraft back home, and if that edge is an obsolescent cannon, so be it.

Gavin

#555918 - 03/23/01 02:32 AM Re: Typhoon Gun Kill  
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George Gore,

1. Andy is a fighter pilot. Who are you?
2. If the enemy aircraft dogfight modelling in Flanker 2 is so good, how come even the company that made it have just written to users asking for suggestions on how it can be corrected for the next installment? How come you fly a differet flight/weight model to an enemy aircraft of the same type?

Andy,

I definitely agree - Typhoon has some top dogfight modelling, esp. against the Su-27Ms, which I am finding hard to deal with!


Tracer,

As Jedimaster said, it's only the UK EFs that have no gun (to save money). The first batch will still have the gun but the RAF will buy no ammo for it. I think it's crazy myself (especially if they ever have to fight with limited ROE as in Vietnam, such as visual confirmations).

As to recent gun kills-

1. On 01 June 2000 a light drug running aircraft was shot down over Colombia by an A-37 (sorry, I don't know what that is) using 20mm cannon. Ditto in August 99.
2. On 19 Feb 1995 an Ecuadorian Kfir fighter shot down a Peruvian A-37 with 30mm cannon.
3. In 1992 during a Venezualan coup attempt, a Ven. F-16A shot down another Ven. light fighter with 20mm cannon.
4. In 1985 a South African F1 (Mirage, I assume) shot down a Mig 21 over Angola with 30mm cannon.
5. In 1995 a Nigerian Alpha Jet shot down a Sierra Leonean helo.
6. In 1986 a Pakistani F-16A shot down an (Afghan?) Su-22 (20mm).
7. In 1982 two Syrian Mig-23s were guned down by Israeli F-16As.
8. There have been various AA kills by Afghan militias, but I don't know if these were guns or missiles.
9. In May 1994 a South Yemeni F-5E shot down a North Yemeni F-7 with 20mm.
10. During the Gulf War there were 2 gun kills vs. Helos plus a shared gun/Sparrow kills vs. an IL-76.
11. During the Falklands War there were four cannon claims (not all vs. fighters).
12. On 8 August 99 a Super Etendard shot down a Yugo helo.

There were plenty more (Nagorno-Karabakh, intra-Yugo etc) but these show there is still a role for the gun today. I haven't found a US jet gun kill since 1955.

I didn't know any of this myself - I'm not a walking encyclopaedia or anything. I just thought I'd look it up as the question intrigued me too.

Ian Boys
Sturmovik.com

#555919 - 03/23/01 03:02 AM Re: Typhoon Gun Kill  

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Ian, thanks for the great list! By the way, an A-37 Dragonfly is the attack version of the venerable T-37 Tweetybird trainer.

Andy, thanks for the timely and well-put answers. However, I don't find Rage's monocrome/color choice very immersive at all. It just looks silly and contrived. I think it would just be more impressive (and techo-cool ) to show the IRST with the infrared image that it actually shows - and I believe most will agree with me, especially after seeing all that high-tech footage from the Gulf War and Kosovo air war showing infrared images. But as I mentioned earlier, since Rage has decided not to release Typhoon until June or so, they have plenty of time to fix this little problem.

#555920 - 03/23/01 04:03 AM Re: Typhoon Gun Kill  
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Fishbed

Just what is this 'little problem' that you want fixed? What picture do you want to see?

Please read this. It refers to the RL Eurofighter and is an indication of the capability that Typhoon is modeling.

>>PIRATE incorporates both a Forward Looking Infra Red (or FLIR) and Infra Red Search and Track (or IRST) capability. The system itself utilises a highly sensitive Infra Red sensor mounted to the port side of the canopy...this allows the detection of both the hot exhaust plumes of jet engines as well as surface heating caused by friction. By supercooling the sensor even small variations in temperature can be detected at long range...the use of processing techniques further enhances the output, giving a near high resolution image of targets. The actual output from the system can be directed to any of the Multi-function Head Down Displays mounted within the cockpit. Additionally the image can be overlaid on both the Helmet Mounted Sight and Head Up Display.<<

Typhoon, as with every sim, will have elements that look 'silly and contrived' to someone. That's OK...we're all entitled to our opinions.

My thought is that folks ought to hold their fire until they have a chance to see the game in action. Then, if they don't like it, they are free to fire away!

Andy

[This message has been edited by Andy Bush (edited March 22, 2001).]

#555921 - 03/23/01 04:12 PM Re: Typhoon Gun Kill  

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Andy, Please don't take my opinions personally. I was just stating what I believe to be true about Typhoon the game. The Typhoon (and every other aircraft that has an IRST) shows an infrared image on its display. By nature, that is what an IRST is. Therefore the image should not mix representative colors from the infrared spectrum with colors from the visual spectrum. This, to me (and this is the main point - TO ME - this is my opinion, but probably the opinion of a number of other simmers too) chips away at immersion, and helps make invalid Rage's claims of realistic systems modelling. The IRST in the game should show an image that an IRST would show in real life if at all possible. In this case, I suppose it would be a monochromatic green. I consider this a "little problem" because a) it is not immersive, but probably won't stop me from buying the sim/game, and b) it will be easy to fix in the generous length of time between now and when the sim/game is slated to be released in June.

"My thought is that folks ought to hold their fire until they have a chance to see the game in action. Then, if they don't like it, they are free to fire away!"

I am not "firing" at Typhoon at all! I am merely trying to clear things up and offer a helpful suggestion. I am looking forward to its release (whenever that may be) and hope Rage can come through on its hopes to expand upon the Typhoon universe.

#555922 - 03/23/01 04:35 PM Re: Typhoon Gun Kill  
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Thanks for a very comprehensive list Ian.
I didn't know of any of that info! Amazing how played down A/A gunnery is???

I was at RAF Leuchars and they had the actual gun and about 20 linked 27mm rounds to say it is heavy is an understatement!

I believe the guy actualy said that it would only carry about 140 to 160 rounds?

Seems a dire amount for the weight??

Tracer

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#555923 - 03/23/01 05:05 PM Re: Typhoon Gun Kill  
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Fishbed

No problems with your opinions!

I'm just a little slow in figuring out what you are saying. I wasn't sure if your point was about the multi-colored IRST image...or if you were commenting about the fact that the aircraft image is recognizable as an aircraft (as compared to just seeing a radar scope-like return).

If I understand you now, your comment was only about the colors, and not about the actual shape of the IRST image.

While I'm no expert on IRST displays, your comment about a colored display seems valid to me. If this takes something away from the game for you, then that's OK...for someone else, it may well add something.

As with all sims/games, there will be those aspects that some find less than 'realistic'. The real question is one of overall impact. Does the game provide a satisfying replication of air combat as seen through the eyes and experience level of the player?

Each of us will have to answer that for ourselves.

Andy

#555924 - 03/25/01 01:31 AM Re: Typhoon Gun Kill  
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Andy-

One of the fun things about EF2k was the cannon being linked to your radar-it fired when on target. I read someplace that the automatic cannon was supposed to be in the actual EF2000. Does it work that way in-game?

Miao, Cat


Miao, Cat
#555925 - 03/25/01 02:13 AM Re: Typhoon Gun Kill  
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Hi Cat

No, not that I know of. I have read that the 'autogun' was proposed as an option for the RL plane...don't know if it was bought or not.

It's not a feature that I like...I always want the last vote in any system operation. Airbus had to learn that the hard way!

Andy

#555926 - 03/26/01 10:12 AM Re: Typhoon Gun Kill  
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There is no need for an infra-red image to be shown in green, especially on a colour MFD. IR images can be shown in pseudo-colours, though this would be very confusing. It might be reasonable, however, to show very intense areas in pseudo-colour (such as high temperature explosions).

#555927 - 04/06/01 09:21 PM Re: Typhoon Gun Kill  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fishbed77:
But as I mentioned earlier, since Rage has decided not to release Typhoon until June or so, they have plenty of time to fix this little problem.



I couldn't care less if its monochrome or color..and I prefer the color, as would 95% of the people that buy the game anyways.

Thankfully Rage isn't biting off its nose to spite its face by catering to some stuffy 'hardcore' crowd lol lol

Bring on the FUN!


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-Gel214th
#555928 - 04/07/01 12:43 AM Re: Typhoon Gun Kill  

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Gel214th,
I certainly don't care if it is monochrome or color either. But it should definitely be one or the other - not both!

But I guess it's just wishful thinking -I'll buy the sim anyway, despite this little immersion-killer.

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