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#555402 - 02/03/01 04:09 AM Re: Hello from Rage.....  
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Steve,

what will the max resolution we will be able to set it at? And does it play on your machine smoothly at that max res?

Regarding the mission editor no included, this was disappointing at first but looking back on the size of EF2000 campaign and it's
addon's like TACTCOM etc, if Typhoon is around the same size as in number of missions
and then it might not be so bad.
As Steve said their 4 programmers can only fit so much in to one product given time/money etc.
EF2000 was my first sim and only played a few missions so I'm not familiar with the size of the campaign.
If Steve could let us know in terms of size
of the campaign (sorry if disccused earlier)
and would the surprise factor be there if played again and again?
Lastly will you be releasing it worldwide simultaneously?
Thanks for your time.
Paul Haken.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#555403 - 02/03/01 04:55 AM Re: Hello from Rage.....  

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To Gavin Bennett , hell i play sims for fun ,not to practice being a pilot !!

No one is suggesting any previous DID product is defunct / obselete even now - i still play ef2000 3dfx , taw , wargasm etc they are all on my 30 gb hd right now as i type this :-)

The point i am making is , if DID or Rage , or any over developer , support the WWW community , then a sim will have a longer life and following hopefully !

Whatever others feel , thats my opinion ,

why can't sim developers allow their sims to be modded ??
just think would the FPS genre be what it is today , if the Dooms & Quakes & Half Lifes etc of this world had not been user / enthusiast modable eg new 3d levels etc ???

By not having a mission editor / builder for me this is very very bad , just for my own selfish fun reasons if no other :-0

Again i would say , will we end up with say a web mission editor being made by an enthusiast , with Rage then moving to ban such a product , in the same way DID got upset with the AGE214 taw editor ??

If we get an in game editor , end of story great , alternatively if the 4 coders have their hands full , again i would respectfully ask /request , that some help of info or liasion be given to a www enthusiast typhoon coding group , to enable them to develop a free , gratis mission editor with Rage's blessing .

And please Jema don't keep on saying its not in the developers interest !
Because development and purchase is surely a two way street , obviously the Typhoon coders want to deliver a top notch product that is fun and playabe with good features , and conversely we want to buy fly and enjoy such a product !

More importantly said product needs to do well and sell , so that the Rage suits stay happy and maybe will then further finance the Typh team to do patches , and commercial addons etc - just because i type my thoughts on forums from a simming enthusiast point of view , i do live in the real world , and understand commercial viability & finance .
Typhoon is only being produced ultimately to make money - i do kapish that !! :-)

For some lack of an editor though will be too hard to swallow , and i am sure it will put some off purchasing !

People keep banging on ,on forums and sims sites about buying and supporting the remaining developers sims,for fear of the genre dying etc

yet Typhoon won't have an editor , i really can't remember a sim off the top of my head that does not have one in built - even thinking back to the EA range of Janes Atf / Us Navy Fighters etc !!! and they came out before voodoo 1 cards , they don't even have 3dfx support - but they do have wickedly fun in built mission editors !

To me this is just another example of simming in game features going backwards and not progressing forwards , and it has nothing to do with fun , or flight model or how hard core a simmer you are etc , its like going to the shop and buying a can of coke , pulling off the ring pull , ok u have the coke can packaging but no drink inside , from a marketing / perception point of view it is a backwards step / regression - in MY opinion because you are flying in the face of what people expect as standard on a simming product !

Troff

#555404 - 02/03/01 06:46 AM Re: Hello from Rage.....  

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Hi Troff.

I play to have fun, but the boundrary between sheer terror and fun is a little blurred when the SAMs start launching.

I wasn't suggesting that TAW or EF2k are obsolete, nor was I correcting anyone. The point, which I forgot to make is that these sims, all these years later, still hold their own against such luminaries as F/A-18 and Falcon 4.0. Now, if only they had been developed. TAW used an updated EF2000 graphics engine, and DirectX. Imagine if you could fly EF2k as-is, with TAW graphics and DirectX support for all your kewl new hardware? ie, Imagine if DID kept supporting the sims, bringing out the occassional updates, or new editions. They probably would have made money.

Gavin

#555405 - 02/03/01 06:51 AM Re: Hello from Rage.....  

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And you and me both re: Fighters Anthology. That's where I cut my simulation teeth, and I still hold a strange little affection for the game. FA was a lousy sim, but it created a wonderful, loyal, paying fan base. ATF and FA were big sellers for EA.

(Don't you just love sims, we talk in acronyms!)

If Ef2000 had been designed to include a built in mission editor (TAW was meant to have one) then it would have spawned a community who would have a: supported them sim, and b: purchased any upgrades and add-ons as time went on. (Which is what happened with USNF, then US MF, then USNF Gold, then ATF, then NATO Fighters, then USNF 97, then ATF Gold, then FA - seven or eight products based on one lousy graphics engine!)

Gavin

#555406 - 02/03/01 10:00 AM Re: Hello from Rage.....  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Troffmeister:
Jema , to me your retorts are coming across as you being some kind of a wooden spoon wielding wind up merchant !
Sorry dude we quit the wood spoons back in 1523, it's all metal now. I told them we shouldn't go into all that new fancy stuff because steel isn't real and you can't carve your own name in it or anything. But here we are and they are working quite good.


Sorry but i cannot hold a rational conversation with some one of your mind set , so i will not bother further !

I must confess that I can not meet your standards conversation. This must be a real problem for you. Finding people who can keep pace with your rational ways. How you must suffer.

then i will decline to purchase
No matter what it turns out to be you can still do that.



[This message has been edited by jema - SimHQ (edited February 03, 2001).]

#555407 - 02/03/01 10:19 AM Re: Hello from Rage.....  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Troffmeister:
why can't sim developers allow their sims to be modded ??
Intellectual property??

And please Jema don't keep on saying its not in the developers interest !
That comes down to the intended marked group, the development goals and what the publisher has in mind for the product. May I suggest some reading up on basic buisness and market conduct?


Personally I'll take Andys and Leons word for it, it's great. Mission editing or not.

#555408 - 02/03/01 12:21 PM Re: Hello from Rage.....  
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Quote:
Originally posted by jema - SimHQ:
Personally I'll take Andys and Leons word for it, it's great. Mission editing or not.


My sentiments exactly! So far we've only heard good things from those who have the sim; and that's ALL that matters at this point. As great as it would be if Typhoon was at some point open to third party modifications; I really don't have a problem with the lack of a mission editor. The game has a fully dymanic campaign which which should keep most people busy for a while.

But I don't subscribe to the notion that a sim has got to suck just because it's missing this or that feature. Especially these 2 features in the case of Typhoon. When did a built mission editor and modding capabilities become more important that the sim itself?

#555409 - 02/03/01 05:41 PM Re: Hello from Rage.....  
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Quote:
Originally posted by jema - SimHQ:

... And if you don't like the finished product you don't have to buy it. At the end of the day though Rage has to pay for it.
...


Mr. Jema,
I do not know what you do apart from being SimHQ administrator but ... There are a couple of things that you seem to ignore or at least misunderstand. Please keep in mind the following:

1) The money Rage uses to fund the development of Typhoon (or any other software) does not come from "outer space", or from ONU, FAO or WWF. It is simply coming from sales of previous products, in other words, from previous customers (how odd, like me for example :-).

2) Now, would my opinion by more "important" had I pre-ordered/pre-paid Typhoon? I am afraid not. On the contrary, it would be *less* important. If I have already purchased Typhoon, Rage has already cashed my share. I do not represent anymore a potential revenue (at least for Typhoon).

3) What I am thinking to buy Typhoon and I have not yet done it? *Then* I am important! I have money that Rage may appreciate. If I do not find Typhoon appealing, I will not buy it and Rage will not be happy! At this point, they have already invested in the development of Typhoon, paid the programmers, packed the CDs.

Having said that, I hope that it will dawn on you that if I make questions, remarks or whatever, pointing out that I have already purchased F-22 TAW/ADF and EF-2000, it is because I am trying to find good reasons to buy Typhoon.

Why do you think there is a Rage programmer answering our boring questions and trying to handle one way or another our complains? Perhaps because he has time to waste? That guy, which I think is doing an excellent job, is trying as much as possible to generate interest and convince people that Typhoon will be a good game.

The last thing he/Rage needs, is someone that explains (as if it was really needed :-): "If you don't like Typhoon, don't buy it."

I am sure that any Rage competitor is now rolling on floor and laughing, having read a line like that in a "Typhoon" forum.

Have a nice day,
Shodan

#555410 - 02/03/01 06:11 PM Re: Hello from Rage.....  

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Hi Gavin , thanks for your reply , i was not bashing you re DID sims , i was just stating my position re love of them etc :-)

It seems that you understand my points and rational re modding and my feeling re the DID sims which is great , i have the full range of the EA / JANES sims , FA - fighters anthology is on my hd now , remember downloading all those modded libs for these sims , cool :-)

To Jema , i read your profile , to try to understand where you are coming from , i find your posting style annoying and offensive to be frank !

If we were having a face to face conversation and you made that remark about me not understanding finace - i would have smacked you on the nose , i make a point of trying to post rationally and in an understandable and conversive way , it seems you prefer not too !

Have you graduated from the Derek Smart school of forum posting by any chance ?

Regardless i will try one last time in plain simple english to put across a point to you , please try your very hardest to engage brain and try to see the other side of a conversation for a change here goes !

Right direct question to you -

Re intellectual property right - of course DID hold these rights for their titles , EF2000 , WARGASM , TAW etc - ok each product was sealed and released to a buying public - each product to date has never been further supported , no commercial add ons etc .

Infogrames own the rights now to these products - what good are these rights if the product is dead , by this i mean each game is on the budget shelves now !

So what harm would there be in helping a www modding community to mod / enhance these titles on a free download basis ????

I would argue that the fact these titles are on the budget price shelf , the publishers are trying to reap and ring as much money out of these old products as possible , so if modding of these products was allowed / supported eg dev tools etc , then customer interest would be revived / rekindled and further sales of the original products would take place - a win win financial situation for the publisher and the player !!

please consider this direct question carefully and let me have your thoughts , thankyou

Troff

#555411 - 02/03/01 08:53 PM Re: Hello from Rage.....  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Shodan:
There are a couple of things that you seem to ignore or at least misunderstand.
Likewise.

1) The money Rage uses to fund the development of Typhoon (or any other software) does not come from "outer space", or from ONU, FAO or WWF. It is simply coming from sales of previous products, in other words, from previous customers (how odd, like me for example :-).
If DiD made so much money on their previous products why have they then been bought by and merged with another company? I would say it's the other way around. You lend money during development and then hope to make it back when the product is finished.

2) Now, would my opinion by more "important" had I pre-ordered/pre-paid Typhoon? I am afraid not. On the contrary, it would be *less* important. If I have already purchased Typhoon, Rage has already cashed my share. I do not represent anymore a potential revenue (at least for Typhoon).
A fitting interpetation as we are on the topic of misunderstandings. If you give someone money to do something you can set demands and criteria. If you are moving on a open market of ready-made products your only option is to choose. Do you really think that developers can do what ever they want once the publisher have given them the advance money?

At this point, they have already invested in the development of Typhoon, paid the programmers, packed the CDs.
And they are now on the phone calling the programmers back to work and unpacking the boxes to give you a mission editor?

Having said that, I hope that it will dawn on you that if I make questions, remarks or whatever, pointing out that I have already purchased F-22 TAW/ADF and EF-2000, it is because I am trying to find good reasons to buy Typhoon.
And in reflection of you previous purshases the proven track record is not reason enough for you?

The last thing he/Rage needs, is someone that explains (as if it was really needed :-): "If you don't like Typhoon, don't buy it."

Some people seemed in need to have it explained.

I am sure that any Rage competitor is now rolling on floor and laughing, having read a line like that in a "Typhoon" forum.
Would that be the "If you don't like it..." line? In any case I'm convinced that there are plenty of lines in this thread that will cause more amusement than that one.

Have a nice day,
Likewise

#555412 - 02/03/01 09:01 PM Re: Hello from Rage.....  

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Hi all.

Part of this debate boils down to what Flight Sims as a genre, as a game, and as a thing we buy. What are they?

I have not, ever, completed a Flight Sim. I gave up playing Strike Commander. I think I have finished about 2 or 3 of the Fighters Anthology campaigns. I finished two TAW campaigns. I think I completed EF2000 once, at the 7 difficulty. I completed some of the F-22ADF campaigns, but i was spreading my simming time between FA, ADF and F-15. I had my ass handed to me in F/A-18 last week, and I am still playing the F-15 campaign. Oh i completed the Iran campaign in Longbow2, but not the training campaign.

What does that mean? Well it means, you don't buy sims the way you buy something like oh, say, Tomb Raider. You don't see a rating in a magazine saying: "40 hours of gameplay" describing a flight sim. (If you buy it in England, that would be a quid an hour)

Software publishers like nice pigeon holed games, that you buy, you complete, and you wait for the next one, with bigger hooters. Sims, you buy, you play, and maybe 10 years later, people are still playing it, and complaining that they can't get it to run under Win2k (think, Tornado).

In other words, if you get into the simming game, you need to create a new market model.

One suggestion I had for Falcon 4.0s development, back in the day, when MPS were developing, was to do the following.
1: Finish the patching process.
2: Release a 4.5/Gold edition, with, say, a Block 40 F-16, and a new theatre, say Israel.
3: Release a series of "plane only" add-ons, downloadable off the net (akin to what the F4Alliance are doing now, only for money). An excellent choice would have been an AV-8B.

Why? It meant while MPS were making their next "full" F4 themed product (eg, MiG-29 or F-15E), things were still happening, money was still coming in, feedback was still happening, and the game would be "alive." Gilman made some hints in this direction. i think the idea would have worked. Whats more, net penetration has increased a lot - to the extent that in Canada, the federal government is considering declaring Hi-Speed ADSL internet to be a citizen's right, an essential service akin to nation TV. In that environment, it would be more pratical to sell a game that goes and looks at its makers website about once a week, and gets new software patches and updates without confusing people.

The relevance to this thread?

DID/Rage were once the leaders of the genre, with EF2000. Its time they led the genre out of its rut with Typhoon. We need to support them, if they take this risk.

They need to keep Typhoon alive. They need to support it with new theatres, new features, better cockpits... and we will pay for these things. We will do it gladly. TAW was not a good business model, because TAW came out nearly a year (well, 11 months: ADF came out in November, TAW the following October) after ADF; and it was promised in Spring. People felt ripped off, and while the dynamic campaign was worth every penny of buying TAW (despite the endless supply of enemy aircraft, and lack of a multiplayer campaign), almost every review lead with the line: this is great, but, its just a dynamic campaign tacked onto ADF, which you already have, or words to that effect).

A living sim has a following. A following buys sequels and add-ons. Sims live via mission editors, skin editors, and campaign builders (observer Jane's F/A-18).

Gavin

Gavin

#555413 - 02/03/01 10:51 PM Re: Hello from Rage.....  
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Everyone take a big step back ... look at your own posts and posting style before you start attacking someone else's ... take a real deep breath ... and knock this off NOW!

We will not tolerate these types of posts directed at, or directed from, anyone. Period. This is a shame since this thread had some merit and did ellicit some excellent responses. If anyone feels the need to continue on the downward spiral, I will lock the thread.

That was plain and simple English ... I hope everyone understood it.



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Author of "How to Live and Die in the Virtual Sky"
http://www.flightsimcentral.com/fsc/howtolivandd.html


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Author of \"How to Live and Die in the Virtual Sky\"

100th AFW Buddy Boys
"We land on the fantail and drive to the wires"
#555414 - 02/03/01 11:33 PM Re: Hello from Rage.....  

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sorry to say this Crash but if you want to close the thread go ahead !

I have been trying to have an integrated and rational conversation , so has Gavin and many others , we have been talking intelligently and fron the heart re DID sims / Rage Typhoon lack of features , mission editor etc , i see nothing wrong in that .

The only person on this forum who is antagonising matters is your forum administrator , who seems to get off on a lets beat down the posters attitude !

Sorry to say that , but i see that as being fact .
I want / wanted an adult conversation on this topic with multiple points of view , i believe most posts convey this , sorry you fel this has degenerated , what was wrong with Gavins last highly valid response ??

Troff :-0

#555415 - 02/04/01 01:03 AM Re: Hello from Rage.....  

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On a positive post with respect to all.
I would like to repost my previous question to Steve Hunt:
Any news about the questions and ideals on source code and/or development of EF2000 / TAW.

Steve,
I'm certainly not a business person (A & P Avionics Mechanic). I don't see how a new serious military aviation sim ("Hardcore", but scaleable for new people) could ever be produced under the current accepted business models of developers do all. I think that the below listed ideals might be or lead to an answer to this situation.

Some examples of current efforts by the flight sim community are:
http://www.17hours.com This looks very promising. Just think if they had one paid full time administrator/programer!
Another one is http://www.users.qwest.net/~boddman/csp it seems like it may be successfully.
And of course, by now Falcon4 is really more like Falcon5.
Plus there are more such efforts that may or may not go anywhere.

I am very much interested in your/Rage's opinions as I really believe that DiDs EF2000/TAW concept is a extremely good candidate for such a project.

gwarren1@airmail.net

Quote:
Originally posted by Junglegeorge:
Steve Hunt,
On the question of source code for EF2000 and TAW.
1. Would it be possible to release the code publicly, or even for compensation, if there is a license agreement that stated any modifications and improvements would belong to Rage, and could be used by rage in a future release of a EF2000/TAW product.

2.Even though TAW is a long and complex code, you are probably underestimating the resources of the serious flight sim community. Case in point, Falcon4. If Microprose had such an agreement Falcon5 would be on the store shelf with next to nothing development cost by now.

3. Rage could set up a server/website to store and catalog all mods such as artwork, Realism Patches, etc... This would help rage monitor and even help to administer/support the development efforts.

4. Would the flight sim community care if Rage makes a profit from the work. I personally would not, nor do I think the vast majority would. Face it, Rage produces sims for a profit. We are not licensed to be altering sims any way. As it is, because of the cost to have a paid staff develop TAW V2.0, or the matter Falcon5, its not likely to happen, but under such an agreement it would be very likely that there would be a TAW V2.0 that would reset the military flight sim standards.

Any other thoughts from anyone?



[This message has been edited by Junglegeorge (edited February 03, 2001).]

#555416 - 02/04/01 01:20 AM Re: Hello from Rage.....  

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Gavin you make some interesting points re F4 , I don't know if you are aware of the number of downloads of the Erazor f4 patch , 17,000 people i believe proving F4 is still very strong !

You may also be aware of a patch in the works for Flanker 2 , which will upgrade it to version 2.5 with lotsa great new features .

There has been quite a bit of argumentive behaviour over at the flanker 2 official site forum , between developer and fans re promised and missing features on F2 , a developer statement was made this week to calm tempers etc !

I will come to the point on this issue though , me personally i have never put my credit cards details into the web or purchased simming stuff off the web , preferring high street shop purchases !

If for example the 2.5 FLANKER 2 patch was say only downloadable off the net , requiring say a credit card purchase of say 2 uk gbp or equivalent dollars etc via a secure credit card facility before the file was downloadable , i would be prepared to pay for an enhancement patch !

I would not though pay for a generic bug fix patch , the 2.5 patch i am referring to will be a bit special because it will transform F2 and add new features !

Now imagine as you suggested if such a scenario had existed via Hasbro re F4 , new add on patches giving features and new aircraft etc - i believe the 17,000 that downloaded the Erazor F4 patch , would have been the same people paying via credit card a few dollars to Hasbro .

If this scenario had happened we would now be in a different era , and simming reality re F4 etc .

I believe this credit card avenue is a model that maybe Rage and others should consider , in making patches and add ons for sims eg Typhoon etc .

I would not pay up front for a promised patch , but at least the suits at the developers would know that potentially 17,000 people will pay by credit card for a patch once its completed , and besides no credit card purchase - no patch download !

There must be a better way in this simming genre to balance and grant the wishes of the end user and enthusiast , with the development costs incurred , and ultimately to keep the talented coder guys & development teams in jobs , to turn out the sims we all want to play and enjoy :-)

Troff

#555417 - 02/04/01 02:34 AM Re: Hello from Rage.....  
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Troffmeister:
sorry to say this Crash but if you want to close the thread go ahead !

Thank you so much for your permission.

The only person on this forum who is antagonising matters is your forum administrator , who seems to get off on a lets beat down the posters attitude !

I disagree with your assessment. There is not a single person to blame here. You are as much into this as anyone else. Everyone needs to face up to their portion of this issue and not try to pass of the blame on someone else. The fact that you are placing blame does not help your case in the least.

what was wrong with Gavins last highly valid response ??

Nothing, ... my post was directed at you and my staff.

Junglegeorge,
Thanks for reminding us why we are here. I appreciate it.

------------------
Dan "CRASH" Crenshaw
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Author of "How to Live and Die in the Virtual Sky"
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[This message has been edited by CRASH - SimHQ (edited February 03, 2001).]


Dan "CRASH" Crenshaw
Author of \"How to Live and Die in the Virtual Sky\"

100th AFW Buddy Boys
"We land on the fantail and drive to the wires"
#555418 - 02/04/01 04:13 AM Re: Hello from Rage.....  

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Hi all.

I am very aware of the amazing work being done on both Falcon 4.0 and F/A-18, and I am awaiting the 2.5 add-on patch for Typhoon.

However, my thoughts were aimed squarely at Rage, who are in a unique position to become a market leader in a particular genre. A situation with cut-throat competition between the F2 series and a Typhoon based series would rock ;-)

Your suggestion re: enhancement patches is a very valid one. Again, I would be willing to pay for small enhancement patches to Typhoon. (And a Gr. Mk. 9 Harrier add-on is as valid an idea for Typhoon as it was for Falcon 4.0 *cough* *cough* *hint* *hint*). But the situation needs to exist where it looks like such will make money. The developers need to be able to point to a plethora of webpages and community areas and say: here is our market. These suckers will buy our stuff. (An exaggeration, but i am a true flight sim sucker!)

One other thing: if there have been 20k downloads for eFalcon, why the have the other 100K buyers not downloaded the damn thing. Someone needs to get the print media by the throat and bring eFalcon 1.09 to their phillistine souls).

Gavin

#555419 - 02/04/01 04:24 AM Re: Hello from Rage.....  

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Crash, if you want to take issue with me , feel free to email me , my address-

Roger@Daviesr.freeserve.co.uk
Icq 58124596

Frankly i am very angry ,and more than happy to communicate with you off thread by mail or icq !

I was hoping the thread was going to evolve into something more constructive naturally , you will note i was trying to engage your member of staff in a more rational conversation , suggesting to be more open minded and see both sides of a conversation , and i asked for his feedback on a direct,specific scenario question .

Your comment regarding my permission - whoa !!! where does that come from - your site your forum , your decision if you lock a thread ,that was my point , if you took it to mean something else your interpretation , NOT my intended meaning .
Most people in democratic societies don't like to be being gagged or censored.

Regarding this threads discussion matter , you will see i have attempted to move this discussion along constructively in my prior response to Gavin , and by thus doing so , am attempting to bury the unpleastness on both sides from previous posts .

Look forward to hearing from you

Troff

#555420 - 02/04/01 07:38 AM Re: Hello from Rage.....  

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Ooops, I meant 2.5 for Flanker... ooops.

A lot of people bought F4. Not as many as we would have liked, but a lot of people bought it. So these people have got to be informed that "we" ( the Falcon 4 community) have fixed it and made it better.

Su-27 1.5 has a large following. They have to be nurtured across to F2.

And Ef2000 was the best selling sim ever, and ever single buyer of that game who has an up to the minute PC has to be convinced to want Typhoon. If it sounds cynical, it is. It's for their own good!

;-)

Gavin

#555421 - 02/04/01 03:13 PM Re: Hello from Rage.....  
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In the August magazine of "Combat Aircraft," there's a blurb stating that the RAF version of Eurofighter will be cannonless...as a cost-saving measure...

What version will we see in the game? Cannon or no? I'm assuming cannon (cannonless would be stupid, IMO), but thought I would ask.

Looks like Typhoon will be a winner...looking forward to it!



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Ron aka NipponDSM http://members.tripod.com/~WIGGLIT/EECH.html


Currently playing:
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  • IL2 Sturmovik (BoK, BoB, & BoS)

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