Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
#4627642 - 05/29/23 10:27 PM Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,678
CyBerkut Online content
Administrator
CyBerkut  Online Content
Administrator
Hotshot

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,678
Florida
Fascinating.

Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology

Quote

Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology
[May 25, 2023: Staff Writer, The Brighter Side of News]

[Linked Image]
One idea is to build a space elevator—a cable stretching from Earth to orbit that provides a way to climb into space. (CREDIT: Creative Commons)

One of the primary hurdles to our continued exploration and expansion across the solar system may be the overwhelming cost associated with overcoming Earth's gravitational pull. This is according to Zephyr Penoyre of the University of Cambridge, UK, and Emily Sandford of Columbia University, New York.

The issue at hand is fundamentally rooted in the working principles of rocket engines, which involve propelling mass in one direction to generate the necessary thrust in the opposite direction for spacecraft. This process requires significant amounts of propellant, which, although ultimately discarded, still needs to be accelerated in tandem with the spacecraft.


The cost of transporting a single kilogram into orbit is astronomically high, reaching tens of thousands of dollars. The expense only multiplies when considering missions to the moon and beyond, leading to a heightened interest in discovering more economical methods of reaching orbit.

One proposed solution involves constructing a space elevator. This concept involves a cable extending from the Earth's surface to the orbit, offering a route to ascend into space. The primary benefit of this system is the potential to harness solar energy for the climbing process, thus eliminating the need for onboard fuel.

However, this idea presents a significant challenge. The cable required for such an operation would have to possess exceptional strength. Carbon nanotubes are a possible material for this application, provided they can be developed to the necessary length. Unfortunately, currently available alternatives lack the required strength.

Penoyre and Sandford have revisited the concept of a space elevator, adding their own unique spin to it. They propose a version they've dubbed a "spaceline", which they argue could be constructed using materials that are currently commercially accessible.

Let's dive into some context first. The traditional idea of a space elevator involves a cable that's secured at the ground level and stretches beyond the geosynchronous orbit, a distance approximately 42,000 kilometers (26,098 miles) above the Earth.


A cable of this nature would carry substantial weight. To prevent it from descending, an equivalent mass in orbit would need to counterbalance it at the opposite end. Centrifugal forces would then bear the entire weight of the elevator.



For decades, an array of physicists, authors of science fiction, and dreamers have eagerly computed the magnitude of these forces. However, the resulting calculations have consistently led to disappointment. There is currently no identified material capable of withstanding these forces. This includes materials as strong as spider silk, Kevlar, or even the most resilient contemporary carbon fiber polymers.

Penoyre and Sandford are suggesting an alternative concept. Rather than having the cable anchored on Earth, they recommend that it be tethered to the moon and extended toward Earth.

The key distinction lies in the centrifugal forces. A traditional space elevator would rotate fully once per day, in sync with the Earth's rotation. However, a space elevator based on the moon would only orbit once every month, a significantly slower rate with proportionally reduced forces.

Furthermore, the arrangement of forces is different. A cable extending from the moon to Earth would traverse a zone in space where the gravitational pull of the Earth and moon neutralize each other.

This zone, referred to as a Lagrange point, would become a crucial component of such a moon-based space elevator. Below this point, closer to Earth, gravity would draw the cable toward the planet. Conversely, above this point, nearer to the moon, the cable would be pulled towards the lunar surface.

Penoyre and Sandford promptly demonstrate that if the cable extended from the moon to the surface of Earth, the resulting forces would be too overwhelming for current materials to withstand. However, the cable doesn't necessarily need to reach all the way to be effective.

The researchers' key finding highlights that current high-strength materials like carbon polymers, such as Zylon, have the capacity to sustain a cable extending from the moon to the geosynchronous orbit. They further propose that a prototype device, constructed from a cable roughly the diameter of a pencil lead, could be suspended from the moon at an expenditure amounting to billions of dollars.

[Linked Image]
It would reduce the fuel needed to reach the surface of the moon. (CREDIT: LIftPort)

This proposal is undoubtedly ambitious, yet not outside the realm of contemporary space missions. Penoyre and Sandford state, “By extending a line, anchored on the moon, to deep within Earth’s gravity well, we can construct a stable, traversable cable allowing free movement from the vicinity of Earth to the Moon’s surface,” say Penoyre and Sandford.

The potential for cost savings is considerable. The necessary fuel to reach the lunar surface would be cut to a mere third of its current demand, the researchers assert.

Simultaneously, this approach would unveil a new frontier in space exploration — the Lagrange point. This is noteworthy because both the gravitational pull and its gradient at this point are null, making it considerably safer for construction undertakings. In contrast, the gradient of gravity in low Earth orbit renders orbits substantially less stable.

The researchers, Penoyre and Sandford, illustrate this point using a simple analogy. “If you drop a tool from the International Space Station it will seem to rapidly accelerate away from you,” point out Penoyre and Sandford. “The Lagrange point has an almost negligible gradient in gravitational force; the dropped tool will stay close at hand for a much longer period.”

Additionally, this region is free from significant debris. Penoyre and Sandford indicate, “The Lagrange point has been mostly untouched by previous missions, and orbits passing through here are chaotic, greatly reducing the amount of meteoroids,” they say.

Penoyre and Sandford underline the substantial advantage of reaching the Lagrange point via the spaceline. They argue that the establishment of a base camp at the Lagrange point could significantly revolutionize the initial utilization of the spaceline, and more broadly, human space exploration. They envision such a base camp enabling the development and upkeep of advanced space-based experiments, potentially including telescopes, particle accelerators, gravitational wave detectors, vivariums, as well as power generation sites and launch stations for missions aimed at further solar system exploration.

This intriguing perspective rekindles interest in the concept of a space elevator. With more affordable access to the Lagrange point, the moon, and beyond, space exploration might have just become a much more attainable and cost-effective proposition.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4627645 - 05/30/23 12:52 AM Re: Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology [Re: CyBerkut]  
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 6,578
NoFlyBoy Offline
Hotshot
NoFlyBoy  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 6,578
I can see UFO flying, minding its own business and collding into it, pissing off some alien race. That's how War of the Worlds, Independence Day, Battle Los Angeles, Battleship, the Tom Cruise movie starts.

#4627646 - 05/30/23 01:21 AM Re: Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology [Re: CyBerkut]  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,607
Mr_Blastman Online content
Hotshot
Mr_Blastman  Online Content
Hotshot

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,607
Atlanta, GA
I believe a space elevator to a geosynchronous platform at 35,786 km (about 22 miles) is plausible and achievable, but I feel the moon is quite a stretch. Even to the platform alone we run the risk of parasitic drag from sending mostly stuff up and very little down, which over time would slow the Earth's rotation if there wasn't a 50/50 balance.

I'm not sure the material cost for even a "halfway" trip from the moon to the lagrange point between us, which is still problematic because of the Moon's orbit and the Earth's rotation. I would hold out for better propulsion methods, rather than entertain such a venture, unless of course we become so drained of resources on Earth that we need to harvest the Moon, of which I would caution us from doing so. The Moon is vital to the balance of tides and many other phenomena we take for granted on the Earth. Ridding the Moon of mass could screw up this (almost)homeostasis over time.

Last edited by Mr_Blastman; 05/30/23 04:59 PM.
#4627648 - 05/30/23 01:59 AM Re: Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology [Re: CyBerkut]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,678
CyBerkut Online content
Administrator
CyBerkut  Online Content
Administrator
Hotshot

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,678
Florida
Materials-wise, a space elevator up from earth is not yet feasible. One up from the moon to past the Lagrange point, but short of earth's geosynchronous orbit can be done with current materials technology. The video covers it, as well as discussing the savings realized by that approach, plus addresses the potential advantages of having a platform at the Lagrange point.

While the video doesn't make comparisons to the current NASA vision of having a lunar orbiting space station to support lunar missions / lunar habitat... it appears that a lunar space elevator would be a lot better for logistical support of lunar habitation / missions. It would be a sizeable investment on the front end, but considering what they have blown on SLS / Artemis, it might make more sense.

#4627650 - 05/30/23 02:14 AM Re: Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology [Re: CyBerkut]  
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 6,578
NoFlyBoy Offline
Hotshot
NoFlyBoy  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 6,578
Those scientists need to work on Star Trek transporter instead of space elevator.

#4627651 - 05/30/23 03:06 AM Re: Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,461
PanzerMeyer Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,461
Miami, FL USA
Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
Those scientists need to work on Star Trek transporter instead of space elevator.



Disassembling and reassembling molecules while at the same time not killing the organic entity is not even theoretically possible.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 05/30/23 03:07 AM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4627656 - 05/30/23 09:57 AM Re: Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,678
CyBerkut Online content
Administrator
CyBerkut  Online Content
Administrator
Hotshot

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,678
Florida
Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
Those scientists need to work on Star Trek transporter instead of space elevator.


rolleyes

#4627657 - 05/30/23 10:05 AM Re: Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology [Re: CyBerkut]  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,973
Hentzau Offline
Member
Hentzau  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,973
Tampa, Florida USA
Jeez, we used to have stargates. LOL

#4627658 - 05/30/23 10:27 AM Re: Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology [Re: Hentzau]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,461
PanzerMeyer Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,461
Miami, FL USA
Originally Posted by Hentzau
Jeez, we used to have stargates. LOL



I like to refer to them as "mass relays".


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4627664 - 05/30/23 11:29 AM Re: Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,114
Chucky Offline
Veteran
Chucky  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,114
UK
Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
Those scientists need to work on Star Trek transporter instead of space elevator.


I'm sure that's next on the to-do list once they've cracked Warp Speed.


EV's are the Devils matchbox.
#4627665 - 05/30/23 11:59 AM Re: Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology [Re: CyBerkut]  
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 8,852
Allen Offline
Hotshot
Allen  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 8,852
Ohio USA
But, why send "living people" a slightly cheaper way -- which is costly and very time consuming to develop?

In a small number of decades, "self aware artificial intelligence" with "genius level IQs" will be a fact. Sending "android robots" (smarter than people) will be cheaper, safer, and more effective overall.

While in space or on the Moon, the robots could "live on sunshine". My Step Son (a NASA upper management type) is currently involved in a project developing "solar energy" devices for deployment on the Moon. Currently, they are anticipated to support human colonies (or human whatever) on the Moon. Those folks would still need Oxygen, Food, Medical aid, etc.

I'd have his energy-devices supporting intelligent robots (and other machines) that could do anything a human could do -- and live in a vacuum off that solar energy.


Sapphire Pulse RX7900XTX, 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + SAMSUNG 32" Odyssey Neo G7 1000R curve (4K/2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD R9-7950X (ARCTIC Liquid Freezer II 420), 64GB RAM@6.0GHz, Gigabyte X670E AORUS MASTER MB, (4x M.2 SSD + 2xSSD + 2xHD) = ~52TB storage, EVGA 1600W PSU, Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower, ASUS RT-AX89X 6000Mbps WiFi router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, G.Skill RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W11 Pro
#4627666 - 05/30/23 12:03 PM Re: Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology [Re: Allen]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,461
PanzerMeyer Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,461
Miami, FL USA
Originally Posted by Allen
But, why send "living people" a slightly cheaper way -- which is costly and very time consuming to develop?

In a small number of decades, "self aware artificial intelligence" with "genius level IQs" will be a fact. Sending "android robots" (smarter than people) will be cheaper, safer, and more effective overall.

While in space or on the Moon, the robots could "live on sunshine". My Step Son (a NASA upper management type) is currently involved in a project developing "solar energy" devices for deployment on the Moon. Currently, they are anticipated to support human colonies (or human whatever) on the Moon. Those folks would still need Oxygen, Food, Medical aid, etc.

I'd have his energy-devices supporting intelligent robots (and other machines) that could do anything a human could do -- and live in a vacuum off that solar energy.


I think it has more to do with psychological and PR issues. Sending robots out into space or to live on lunar colonies isn't really "human exploration" is it? Notice that Elon Musk isn't sending a robot crew for his planned Mars settlement but humans.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4627669 - 05/30/23 12:11 PM Re: Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology [Re: CyBerkut]  
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,671
Sunchaser Offline
Member
Sunchaser  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,671
Houston, Tx.

Well, there are 2 words in that report that completely negate our government doing it...Cheap and Reliable.

Maybe, if they let Elon give it a go.

#4627670 - 05/30/23 12:13 PM Re: Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology [Re: CyBerkut]  
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,824
F4UDash4 Online cool
Veteran
F4UDash4  Online Cool
Veteran

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,824
SC
If the technology had existed should the Spanish Monarchy have sent robots to the western hemisphere rather than Columbus?


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4627673 - 05/30/23 12:28 PM Re: Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology [Re: F4UDash4]  
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 8,852
Allen Offline
Hotshot
Allen  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 8,852
Ohio USA
Originally Posted by F4UDash4
If the technology had existed should the Spanish Monarchy have sent robots to the western hemisphere rather than Columbus?


Finding another "human" living environment on Earth makes perfect sense. But, they are talking Moon.

Humans can "barely survive" on the Moon or Mars -- and. for what? Today, who knows?

As PanzerMeyer says: "...it has more to do with psychological and PR issues". I get it smile

But, my job at NASA was to find "the cheapest real solution to the real problem" -- sorry, I'm just "built that way" biggrin


Sapphire Pulse RX7900XTX, 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + SAMSUNG 32" Odyssey Neo G7 1000R curve (4K/2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD R9-7950X (ARCTIC Liquid Freezer II 420), 64GB RAM@6.0GHz, Gigabyte X670E AORUS MASTER MB, (4x M.2 SSD + 2xSSD + 2xHD) = ~52TB storage, EVGA 1600W PSU, Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower, ASUS RT-AX89X 6000Mbps WiFi router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, G.Skill RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W11 Pro
#4627677 - 05/30/23 12:53 PM Re: Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology [Re: Allen]  
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,824
F4UDash4 Online cool
Veteran
F4UDash4  Online Cool
Veteran

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,824
SC
Originally Posted by Allen


But, my job at NASA was to find "the cheapest real solution to the real problem" -- sorry, I'm just "built that way" biggrin



Cheapest solution and NASA aren't synonymous.

And I don't recall the source but someone calculated the cost per pound for lunar samples returned by Apollo vs the price per pound of lunar samples returned by all robotic missions, Apollo was cheaper.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4627681 - 05/30/23 03:41 PM Re: Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology [Re: CyBerkut]  
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,705
Blade_RJ Offline
Simhq Weather man, dropping rain in your parade
Blade_RJ  Offline
Simhq Weather man, dropping rain in your parade
Hotshot

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,705
brasil
space elevator...lmao, just the concept is stupid on its own merit.......who wants to go into a shotgun firing contest as the target? all the space debris,satelites, and space particles that can go through it. ill take my chances straped to explosive keg. at least its fast way out and much cooler means.

#4627683 - 05/30/23 03:46 PM Re: Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology [Re: CyBerkut]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,461
PanzerMeyer Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,461
Miami, FL USA
"Space elevator" just makes me think of the Pixar movie "Soul". biggrin


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4627684 - 05/30/23 03:48 PM Re: Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,705
Blade_RJ Offline
Simhq Weather man, dropping rain in your parade
Blade_RJ  Offline
Simhq Weather man, dropping rain in your parade
Hotshot

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,705
brasil
Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
Those scientists need to work on Star Trek transporter instead of space elevator.



Disassembling and reassembling molecules while at the same time not killing the organic entity is not even theoretically possible.


how not ? if information can not be destroyed then its possible. maybe not individually like its shown on tv shows but inside a protective enviroment to send that across a point in space, but if we can send anything across a point in space, then theory dictate we can send anything across time as well. when people think teleport they are basically thinking magic but with sci fi.

#4627685 - 05/30/23 04:05 PM Re: Scientists believe a space elevator to the Moon is possible using today's technology [Re: F4UDash4]  
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 8,852
Allen Offline
Hotshot
Allen  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 8,852
Ohio USA
Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Originally Posted by Allen


But, my job at NASA was to find "the cheapest real solution to the real problem" -- sorry, I'm just "built that way" biggrin


Cheapest solution and NASA aren't synonymous.


I agree. I was a weirdo to some of the Engineers in the Hallway. Some dropped in on Higher Management, or me, or Both to complain.

Example: On a large Project for the Space Station that I Project Managed, one NASA Department requested 30 Engineers to do a job. I said "no"; you can do it with 6 Engineers -- and refused -- only allowing them 6 (I actually did know what I was talking about). It took several MONTHS for them to take me seriously -- while the task languished. Finally, the leader of the small group of 6 took me seriously (according to his own words) and did it with 6. At a conference, that guy who figured it out gave a talk explaining the approach. Industry was impressed. He was offered and took nearly TRIPLE his NASA pay to work in industry. So, yes, getting it done cheap (but right) is unusual -- however, cheap but right can get paid accordingly.

Regarding past Robotic Missions. I'm talking a few decades from now -- when intelligent robots out perform humans and can be transported and supported more cheaply than humans.


Sapphire Pulse RX7900XTX, 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + SAMSUNG 32" Odyssey Neo G7 1000R curve (4K/2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD R9-7950X (ARCTIC Liquid Freezer II 420), 64GB RAM@6.0GHz, Gigabyte X670E AORUS MASTER MB, (4x M.2 SSD + 2xSSD + 2xHD) = ~52TB storage, EVGA 1600W PSU, Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower, ASUS RT-AX89X 6000Mbps WiFi router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, G.Skill RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W11 Pro
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
10 Years ago MV Sewol
by wormfood. 04/15/24 08:25 PM
Pride Of Jenni race win
by NoFlyBoy. 04/15/24 12:22 AM
It's Friday: grown up humor for the weekend.
by NoFlyBoy. 04/12/24 01:41 PM
OJ Simpson Dead at 76
by bones. 04/11/24 03:02 PM
They wokefied tomb raider !!
by Blade_RJ. 04/10/24 03:09 PM
Good F-35 Podcast
by RossUK. 04/08/24 09:02 AM
Gleda Estes
by Tarnsman. 04/06/24 06:22 PM
Food Safety and Bad Roommates
by KRT_Bong. 04/04/24 02:16 AM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0