#4607753 - 09/05/22 10:06 PM
Re: Airfield Attack Mission Issue
[Re: BuckeyeBob]
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Joined: May 2016
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BuckeyeBob
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Your video is consistent with my observations, Robert. Sometimes, for no apparent reason, the AI "forgets" how to fly and will crash. I thought this occurred only during attacks, but your video showed it happening in level flight, although there was flak around. Curious.
“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
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#4607754 - 09/05/22 10:17 PM
Re: Airfield Attack Mission Issue
[Re: BuckeyeBob]
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 938
VonS
WWI Flight Sims on a Mac
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WWI Flight Sims on a Mac
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For what it's worth, AI forgetfulness might have something to do with the skill level and motivation assigned to them -- while I tinker with a small pack of missions for the Italy mod., I've noticed, for example, during a dogfight with several Albies that, once the Albies were shot down, two of my SPAD VIIs then attempted to leave the area -- both were at low alt., with the fellow assigned a skill/motivation value of 2/7 twitching at times and plowing into a mountain rather comfortably -- and the other fellow, assigned a value of 3/8, gingerly avoiding the mountain side, finding an opening, and proceeding to get out, above, and flying off nicely across a valley. I am of course testing using the quick/custom missions option in WoFF, not via the other option for QC (quick combat). Cheers all, Von S
~ For my various FM/AI/FPS/DM Mods. for First Eagles 2, WoFF, RoF & WoTR, and tips for FlightGear, recommended is to check over my CombatAce profile ( https://combatace.com/profile/86760-vons/) and to click on the "About Me" tab while there. ~
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#4607757 - 09/05/22 11:03 PM
Re: Airfield Attack Mission Issue
[Re: BuckeyeBob]
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BuckeyeBob
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Very interesting idea, VonS. I wouldn't be surprised at all if skill/morale is a factor in these unexplained AI crashes. Perhaps those pilots with low skill or morale are more likely to "panic" and temporarily forget how to fly. I'll look over my saved mission logs and see if I can find any correlation between skill/morale and crashing.
Edit: Confirmed (preliminary). It appears that pilot skill is a factor here. Of the four aircraft that seemed to crash for no apparent reason, three had a skill level of 1 and one had a skill level of 2. The AI pilot with a skill level of 2 was the only pilot in his flight that crashed. All the other AI pilots in that flight had a skill level of 3.
Morale was much more variable, with some at a morale level of 5 or 6, and one with a morale of 8.
If AI skill is a factor, then my workshop settings may be playing a role here. Currently, I have "Enhanced AI Skill" and "AI Damage Affects Skill" set to off. Question: do these settings affect skill or morale, and does either one give a boost to skill or morale or do they do something else?
IF skill is playing a role here, perhaps a tweak should be made to this factor so that only very green AI pilots should have a skill rating of one. Note: squadrons also have skill ratings. Maybe only "poor" squadrons should have skill ratings of one?
Last edited by BuckeyeBob; 09/06/22 02:14 AM. Reason: Added details on skill factor
“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
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#4607799 - 09/06/22 01:45 PM
Re: Airfield Attack Mission Issue
[Re: BuckeyeBob]
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BuckeyeBob
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I recently ran two missions with collision avoidance increased from 300 to 500, and AGL lowered from its original value to 50, and there were no crashes, even with several AI pilots with a skill level of 1.
I will now try a few missions with the collision avoidance set at 100 and see what happens.
“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
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#4607842 - 09/07/22 03:42 AM
Re: Airfield Attack Mission Issue
[Re: BuckeyeBob]
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BuckeyeBob
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Okay, ran a few more missions this evening. I'm now more inclined to believe that the collision avoidance value plays an important role here, although it can't explain all aircraft crashes.
For the first two missions, I had collision avoidance set to 100, AGL to 50. Pilot skill set to 1. There were six pilots in each of these two missions. Out of these two missions (one airfield, one RR) there were six crashes, with three in each mission. In one of the missions, one clearly appeared to be the result of ground-fire, while I cannot explain the other two. Oddly, the mission debrief screen showed three pilots killed, one due to enemy, but the other two were described as "Destroyed by Self." Does that mean they accidentally flew into the ground?
For the third mission, I changed collision avoidance to 400. AGL and pilot skill remained the same. There were four pilots in this mission. In this mission, there was only one crash, also unexplained, but perhaps by gunfire.
So, for those experiencing AI crashes during airfield and RR attacks, I suggest increasing the collision avoidance to 400 or 500. AGL, however, can safely be lowered it appears.
I still can't explain all AI crashes, like the one Robert reported earlier. I have saved four or five mission logs, for anyone who might be interested in looking at them.
“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
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#4607893 - 09/07/22 05:22 PM
Re: Airfield Attack Mission Issue
[Re: Polovski]
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Robert_Wiggins
BWOC Survivor!...So Far!!
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Thanks guys.
(BTW at 5.05 in your video Robert if you look at your label it says it's fighting a Fok DII hence the changes in manoeuvres at that point - it's not trying to ground attack any more).
I follow your reasoning Mark but in the vid, the DII is quite a ways off to be taking radical maneuvers such as those demonstrated in my opinion. That said, you know better than I as to the AI reasoning/decision making. I just elected to take back control rather than wait to see if the Pup would crash. I probably shouldn't have done that. Best Regards
Case: Cooler Master Storm Trooper PSU: Ultra X3,1000-Watt MB: Asus Maximus VI Extreme Mem: Corsair Vengeance (2x 8GB), PC3-12800, DDR3-1600MHz, Unbuffered CPU: Intel i7-4770K, OC to 4.427Ghz CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Seidon 240M Liquid CPU Cooler Vid Card: ASUS GTX 980Ti STRIX 6GB OS and Games on separate: Samsung 840 Series 250GB SSD Monitor: Primary ASUS PG27AQ 4k; Secondary Samsung SyncMaster BX2450L Periphs: MS Sidewinder FFB2 Pro, TrackIR 4
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#4607932 - 09/07/22 10:09 PM
Re: Airfield Attack Mission Issue
[Re: BuckeyeBob]
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BuckeyeBob
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Thank you, Pol.
For what it's worth, I ran all these missions with AA fire set to easy.
In terms of ranking the lethality of these missions from these tests, I would place RR yard attacks as the most lethal, airfield attacks the second most lethal, and balloon attacks as the least lethal. RR attacks are probably the most lethal because of the combination of flak, mg's, two-story buildings, and several trees, which make it extra hard to maneuver at low levels.
One thing I have noticed about the AI just after it finishes an attack run is that it tends to bank hard in such a way that its wing becomes temporarily perpendicular with the ground, making it easier to collide with tall objects such as trees.
Also, from looking at several mission log files, I noticed frequent "innacurateRocketsCount" and "rocket launch FAIL" messages just before a crash. Probably have nothing to do with the AI crashes, but I thought I would note it anyway. I will refrain from using rockets on airfield and railyard attack missions from now on, though.
“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
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#4607933 - 09/07/22 10:19 PM
Re: Airfield Attack Mission Issue
[Re: Robert_Wiggins]
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BuckeyeBob
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Thanks guys.
(BTW at 5.05 in your video Robert if you look at your label it says it's fighting a Fok DII hence the changes in manoeuvres at that point - it's not trying to ground attack any more).
I follow your reasoning Mark but in the vid, the DII is quite a ways off to be taking radical maneuvers such as those demonstrated in my opinion. That said, you know better than I as to the AI reasoning/decision making. I just elected to take back control rather than wait to see if the Pup would crash. I probably shouldn't have done that. Best Regards Another thing I have noticed from looking at the mission log files is that the AI has difficulty with transitions from one tactical manuever to another, such as in the above example. There may also be a "cascade" effect. That is, when the flight leader crashes, one of the remaining AI immediately becomes the flight leader, which often results in a change in that AI's tactical orders. Perhaps the sudden change from one maneuver to another is confusing the AI, leading to a crash, particularly if the AI is in the middle of an attack?
“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
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#4607948 - 09/08/22 08:06 AM
Re: Airfield Attack Mission Issue
[Re: BuckeyeBob]
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Polovski
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Indeed Robert I merely was pointing out it's nothing to do with rockets or diving at that point.
BB - WM checked through the ground avoidance code and there is nothing wrong/off. As I say it IS dangerous even for humans to dive in a WW1 aircraft close to the round and shoot, especially rockets! So don't take them. We do not auto assign them for ground attack, that is your personal choice. Maybe just take them for yourself next time, and not for the other AI pilots in your flight?
Yes, they are meant to bank at various (randomized to a point to avoid any AI robotics) steep angles to get out of the way of any other aircraft too, not just ground objects. This is by design. Helps a lot in balloon busting which is fairly complex for AI to do.
Given the tremendous complexity of a war situation and AI coping with every single thing that happens, it does extremely well - much better than pretty much any other sim out there. Some of those ground crashes WILL be from damaged controls or aircraft parts from the MG and Archie at the target, even random failures too, and ground blasts. Remember, the defensive MG crews in WW1 usually do not use tracers so you cannot see the bullets flying.
We do NOT want robot AI that always does a perfect dive etc. As In real life shooting up an airfield, some will die. Some will crash, many guys crashed doing victory rolls and showing off too - so any crashes are reasonable and should happen.
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#4607970 - 09/08/22 03:19 PM
Re: Airfield Attack Mission Issue
[Re: BuckeyeBob]
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Joined: Jun 2012
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Robert_Wiggins
BWOC Survivor!...So Far!!
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Thanks Mark, for taking the time to explain, it's appreciated.
Best Regards
Case: Cooler Master Storm Trooper PSU: Ultra X3,1000-Watt MB: Asus Maximus VI Extreme Mem: Corsair Vengeance (2x 8GB), PC3-12800, DDR3-1600MHz, Unbuffered CPU: Intel i7-4770K, OC to 4.427Ghz CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Seidon 240M Liquid CPU Cooler Vid Card: ASUS GTX 980Ti STRIX 6GB OS and Games on separate: Samsung 840 Series 250GB SSD Monitor: Primary ASUS PG27AQ 4k; Secondary Samsung SyncMaster BX2450L Periphs: MS Sidewinder FFB2 Pro, TrackIR 4
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#4608052 - 09/08/22 07:59 PM
Re: Airfield Attack Mission Issue
[Re: BuckeyeBob]
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BuckeyeBob
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As Robert said, thank you.
I wasn't trying to argue with you; just pointing out a few of my observations in case they might have been helpful to you and improve the sim. No offense meant.
“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
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