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#4610248 - 10/03/22 10:12 PM Re: Possible Engine Mod [Re: Bletchley]  
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Here's my guess: the damageAmount_pct value and the frequency_secs value interact with each other in cases of gradual (not one-off) events and influence how fast the component's hit points are used up.

For example, with the Albatross example, the <FailureRule SystemID="engine_one" average_hrs="10" damageAmount_pct="1" frequency_secs="60" dump="y"/> line, combined with the 65 hit points for that engine, means that every 60 seconds, 1% of damage is applied to the hit points, meaning, in this case, the value decreased by 0.65 points per minute (this may account for why the value jumped from 1/65 to 2/65 to 4/65 in approximately five minutes.

I can't determine how this effects your Se5 example, since I don't know the frequency_secs value.

In any event, more testing is required (or a few hints from OBD)!


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4610282 - 10/04/22 04:43 AM Re: Possible Engine Mod [Re: Bletchley]  
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Quote
The one-off damage events are, I think, just that. I don't have a log entry for one now, but I have noted several including one for your 12% failure line), and they always look like:

2022/10/02 16:43:07 759.000000 failureStart alb_dva_sq2 0x04011019 engine_one 10.000000
2022/10/02 16:43:07 759.000000 0x04011019 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.120000
2022/10/02 16:43:07 759.000000 0x04011019 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

with no further repetition.

A 'hit' of 30+ (e.g. 31) looks like that, but with the extra damage line, so something like

2022/10/02 16:43:07 759.000000 failureStart alb_dva_sq2 0x04011019 engine_one 10.000000
2022/10/02 16:43:07 759.000000 0x04011019 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.310000
2022/10/02 16:43:07 759.000000 0x04011019 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/02 16:43:07 759.000000 0x04011019 0x00000004 engine_one 1 / 65

Hmm. I just flew a mission with altered failure rules and got a one-off event as follows (note it does not match the last line in your example directly above):

2022/10/03 02:59:50 1323.000000 failureStart sopwith_pup_sqd 0x04011002 oil_reservoir 2.000000
2022/10/03 02:59:50 1323.000000 0x04011002 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000003 oil_reservoir 0.500000
2022/10/03 02:59:50 1323.000000 0x04011002 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/03 02:59:50 1323.000000 0x04011002 0x00000003 oil_reservoir 17 / 35
2022/10/03 02:59:50 1323.437500 AIF::LeaveFormation RFC-54-B ID(6000) 0x04011002 sopwith_pup_sqd 1

These results appear inconsistent. Why does your engine show 1/65 damage, while my oil reservoir immediately shows 17/35 damage? Shouldn't your engine show something like 20/65? It looks like engines are treated differently than other components. Perhaps because they are dynamic and have moving parts, in which damage is not immediately apparent?

I need to look at a few more mission logs.... reading

Last edited by BuckeyeBob; 10/04/22 04:46 AM.

“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4610283 - 10/04/22 05:28 AM Re: Possible Engine Mod [Re: Bletchley]  
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Hi BB,

"For example, with the Albatross example, the <FailureRule SystemID="engine_one" average_hrs="10" damageAmount_pct="1" frequency_secs="60" dump="y"/> line, combined with the 65 hit points for that engine, means that every 60 seconds, 1% of damage is applied to the hit points, meaning, in this case, the value decreased by 0.65 points per minute (this may account for why the value jumped from 1/65 to 2/65 to 4/65 in approximately five minutes"

Yes, that makes sense of the data - it would be a linear damage effect with time, but delayed (not kicking in until c. 30 hit points have accumulated) and determined by the resilience of the component (1% of 65 in the case of the engine as a whole)

"I can't determine how this effects your Se5 example, since I don't know the frequency_secs value"

It was 4, so it matches your analysis, as it went up in regular steps equivalent to 4% of 38 for every minute.

"These results appear inconsistent. Why does your engine show 1/65 damage, while my oil reservoir immediately shows 17/35 damage? Shouldn't your engine show something like 20/65? It looks like engines are treated differently than other components. Perhaps because they are dynamic and have moving parts, in which damage is not immediately apparent?"

That last example of mine was from memory, as I no longer have the log entry. Will have to check that against further log entries, but I think the first 30 hits might be discounted for the generic engine value (otherwise, in the incremental damage example, it would have started at 20/65 after a delay of 30 minutes).

For the gradual coolant loss example there is no delay, as with your oil loss example - as soon as the first 4 hit points are applied to the coolant system it takes 1/38 damage and continues every minute to 2/38...3/38...until 9/38 (when the aircraft landed).

I think the overall damage figure of 1/20 or 2/20 indicates loss of aircraft structural integrity - so if it reached 20/20 the aircraft would fall apart in flight (wings or tail come off, as in too fast a dive or pull-out?). So far, I have not seen engine damage increase this to more than 2/20. I guess excessive vibration from a self-destructing engine (or bits thrown off it) would damage the aircraft structure (maybe with progressive effects as threshold levels are reached?)

"I need to look at a few more mission logs.... "

Yes, more testing BB!

B

Edit: I don't think it is necessary to start a private thread. If you are worried by 'spoilers' then, I think, anyone following this thread will realise that it is in the Mods section of the forum, and there will be spoilers. If they don't want to know what is 'under the hood' of the game they should not be reading this thread! Making it a private thread might very well close it off to others who would like to test the Mod, or who have ideas and analysis that we have not arrived at. The more the merrier, I think smile

Last edited by Bletchley; 10/04/22 09:05 AM.
#4610336 - 10/04/22 04:21 PM Re: Possible Engine Mod [Re: Bletchley]  
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Excellent, I think we are in agreement, although I agree with you that more testing is required. Speaking of which, I ran a mission last night that had four separate failures to three different aircraft--a record in my testing, so far. I'll post the relevant parts of the mission log when I get home tonight. Some of the output doesn't make sense to me.

Quote
I think the overall damage figure of 1/20 or 2/20 indicates loss of aircraft structural integrity - so if it reached 20/20 the aircraft would fall apart in flight (wings or tail come off, as in too fast a dive or pull-out?). So far, I have not seen engine damage increase this to more than 2/20. I guess excessive vibration from a self-destructing engine (or bits thrown off it) would damage the aircraft structure (maybe with progressive effects as threshold levels are reached?)

This makes sense. Once the human controlled aircraft gets to 2/20 or 3/20, the cockpit seems to start shaking and rattling.

Agree about the private thread. I may continue to post some of my findings behind spoilers, however.

Cheers!


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4610380 - 10/05/22 05:23 AM Re: Possible Engine Mod [Re: Bletchley]  
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Hi BB, this is from yesterday. I changed 12% one-off failure to 30% to check that only 1/65 damage was caused and to see if it generated a Go Home. I had several results, all consistent:

2022/10/04 20:08:40 549.000000 failureStart re_sq2 0x04011046 engine_one 10.000000
2022/10/04 20:08:40 549.000000 0x04011046 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.300000
2022/10/04 20:08:40 549.000000 0x04011046 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/04 20:08:40 549.000000 0x04011046 0x00000004 engine_one 1 / 65

2022/10/04 20:26:54 1575.375000 DISBAND RFC-16-C ID(6010) 0x04011044 re_sq2 currTactic TACS_LAND
2022/10/04 20:26:54 1575.375000 AIF::LeaveFormation RFC-16-C ID(6010) 0x04011045 re_sq2 1
2022/10/04 20:26:54 1575.375000 TacsPush(TACS_LAND) RFC-16-C 0x04011045 re_sq2 APPEND
2022/10/04 20:26:54 1575.375000 AIF::LeaveFormation RFC-16-C ID(6010) 0x04011046 re_sq2 1
2022/10/04 20:26:54 1575.375000 TacsPush(TACS_LAND) RFC-16-C 0x04011046 re_sq2 APPEND
2022/10/04 20:26:54 1575.375000 AIF::LeaveFormation RFC-16-C ID(6010) 0x04011047 re_sq2 1
2022/10/04 20:26:54 1575.375000 TacsPush(TACS_LAND) RFC-16-C 0x04011047 re_sq2 APPEND
2022/10/04 20:26:54 1575.375000 AIF::LeaveFormation RFC-16-C ID(6010) 0x04011048 re_sq2 1
2022/10/04 20:26:54 1575.375000 TacsPush(TACS_LAND) RFC-16-C 0x04011048 re_sq2 APPEND


2022/10/04 20:10:06 635.000000 failureStart alb_dva_sq1 0x04011010 engine_one 10.000000
2022/10/04 20:10:06 635.000000 0x04011010 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.300000
2022/10/04 20:10:06 635.000000 0x04011010 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/04 20:10:06 635.000000 0x04011010 0x00000004 engine_one 1 / 65


2022/10/04 20:19:44 1146.000000 failureStart camel_sq3 0x04011040 engine_one 10.000000
2022/10/04 20:19:44 1146.000000 0x04011040 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.300000
2022/10/04 20:19:44 1146.000000 0x04011040 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/04 20:19:44 1146.000000 0x04011040 0x00000004 engine_one 1 / 65


2022/10/04 20:23:25 1367.000000 failureStart alb_dva_ac2 0x04011007 engine_one 10.000000
2022/10/04 20:23:25 1367.000000 0x04011007 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.300000
2022/10/04 20:23:25 1367.000000 0x04011007 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/04 20:23:25 1367.000000 0x04011007 0x00000004 engine_one 1 / 65

2022/10/04 20:33:18 1960.000000 0x0401100D RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.300000
2022/10/04 20:33:18 1960.000000 0x0401100D overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/04 20:33:18 1960.000000 0x0401100D 0x00000004 engine_one 1 / 65

You can see several failures, but none of them led to Go Home, and they all appeared to maintain formation and continue with their mission. In the first example you can see the squadron breaking up to land shortly after the 30% hit to 0x04011046, but 0x04011046 landed normally.

I have seen one aircraft get up to 41 hits before suffering 1/65, and it went on to 45 hits and 4/65 before the Go Home (incrementing at 1% per minute), so I think the thresholds are variable to some extent. I have seen 2/10 overall damage kick in at 7/65.

B.

Last edited by Bletchley; 10/05/22 05:31 AM.
#4610381 - 10/05/22 05:27 AM Re: Possible Engine Mod [Re: Bletchley]  
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Quote
I ran a mission last night that had four separate failures to three different aircraft--a record in my testing, so far. I'll post the relevant parts of the mission log when I get home tonight. Some of the output doesn't make sense to me.

Here are the mission results:


2022/10/04 01:07:54 2613.000000 failureStart sopwith_pup_sq1 0x04011004 engine_one 200.000000
2022/10/04 01:07:54 2613.000000 0x04011004 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.620000
2022/10/04 01:07:54 2613.000000 0x04011004 overallDamage 5 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/04 01:07:54 2613.000000 0x04011004 0x00000004 engine_one 67 / 77
2022/10/04 01:07:55 2615.562500 INCREASE_COMP was 6.000000 simHz 0x0000000000084B01 now comp simHz 0x0000000000042580
2022/10/04 01:07:55 2616.687500 AIF::LeaveFormation RFC-54-B ID(6000) 0x04011004 sopwith_pup_sq1 1

Pretty straightforward, but I have some questions: as you can see, this is a "one-off' engine failure, with 62% damage applied to the engine. Looking at the Sopwith Pup.xdp file, the total hit points for the engine is 57, but 57 * .062 = 35.3. Nevertheless, the fourth line shows a value of 67 / 77? Also, note the overallDamage value of 5 / 10.

The next pilot suffers two failures. The first is to his engine, and the second is to his oil reservoir, approximately 30 minutes later (note that he is still apparently flying, despite the damage to the engine earlier in the flight.

2022/10/04 01:03:59 1289.000000 failureStart sopwith_pup_sq1 0x0401100B engine_one 60.000000
2022/10/04 01:03:59 1289.000000 0x0401100B RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.300000
2022/10/04 01:03:59 1289.000000 0x0401100B overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/04 01:03:59 1289.000000 0x0401100B 0x00000004 engine_one 37 / 77
2022/10/04 01:04:01 1299.812500 AIF::LeaveFormation RFC-54-A ID(6001) 0x0401100B sopwith_pup_sq1 1

2022/10/04 01:08:58 3099.000000 failureStart sopwith_pup_sq1 0x0401100B oil_reservoir 125.000000
2022/10/04 01:08:58 3099.000000 0x0401100B RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000003 oil_reservoir 0.500000
2022/10/04 01:08:58 3099.000000 0x0401100B overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/04 01:08:58 3099.000000 0x0401100B 0x00000003 oil_reservoir 17 / 35
2022/10/04 01:08:58 3099.000000 0x0401100B 0x00000004 engine_one 37 / 77

This aircraft had a "one-off" engine failure of 30% as compared to the first aircraft. The overallDamage value is less, at 2 / 10, as is the damage amount of 37 / 77. Then, he experiences a second failure to his oil reservoir, which loses 50% of its hit points. Despite the two failures, as best as I can tell, he was still flying or had safely landed when I ended the mission, approximately 28 minutes later.

Now, look at this poor sod. I have never seen this before. Apparently, the damage to his oil reservoir also damages his fuselage, left flap, right elevator, and right stabilizer. Either that, or he was simultaneously hit by enemy fire, but I don't think that is likely.

2022/10/04 01:12:52 4236.000000 failureStart sopwith_pup_sq1 0x04011007 oil_reservoir 125.000000
2022/10/04 01:12:52 4236.000000 0x04011007 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000003 oil_reservoir 0.500000
2022/10/04 01:12:52 4236.000000 0x04011007 overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/04 01:12:52 4236.000000 0x04011007 0x00000003 oil_reservoir 17 / 35
2022/10/04 01:12:52 4236.000000 0x04011007 0x00000012 fuselage_structure 6 / 171
2022/10/04 01:12:52 4236.000000 0x04011007 0x00000019 left_flap 10 / 116
2022/10/04 01:12:52 4236.000000 0x04011007 0x00000028 elevator_right 7 / 40
2022/10/04 01:12:52 4236.000000 0x04011007 0x00000044 right_horizontal_stabilizer 1 / 32

So, everything appears relatively straight-forward, except for the engine damage rules. Why does the engine have a higher number of hit points in the failure rules than it does in the .xdp file? For all the other components, the numbers in the failure rules match the number in the .xdp file. flap: 116 / 116, elevator: 40 / 40, stabilizer: 32 / 32, fuselage 171 / (45+45+45+36). Curious. Edit (October 9): Also note the overallDamage value is 2 / 10. Most of the time, for non-engine failures like this, the overallDamage is 0 / 10. Does this represent a random chance of structural damage in cases of severe failure like this?


Edit: Ah, I just missed your post, but it is way past my bedtime now, so I will have to respond later today.

Last edited by BuckeyeBob; 10/10/22 03:02 AM. Reason: added info about overallDamage

“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4610403 - 10/05/22 01:11 PM Re: Possible Engine Mod [Re: Bletchley]  
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!!!

"2022/10/04 01:03:59 1289.000000 failureStart sopwith_pup_sq1 0x0401100B engine_one 60.000000
2022/10/04 01:03:59 1289.000000 0x0401100B RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.300000
2022/10/04 01:03:59 1289.000000 0x0401100B overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/04 01:03:59 1289.000000 0x0401100B 0x00000004 engine_one 37 / 77"

Are we both using the same version of WOFF, BB? I am using BH&H II patched to the most recent patch, with no mods (other than my Missions mod, and I don't think that would make a difference)

B.

#4610420 - 10/05/22 03:17 PM Re: Possible Engine Mod [Re: Bletchley]  
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Looking at our last several posts, I also see the inconsistency:

You reported several engine failures like this:

2022/10/04 20:23:25 1367.000000 failureStart alb_dva_ac2 0x04011007 engine_one 10.000000
2022/10/04 20:23:25 1367.000000 0x04011007 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.300000
2022/10/04 20:23:25 1367.000000 0x04011007 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/04 20:23:25 1367.000000 0x04011007 0x00000004 engine_one 1 / 65

I found several like the above, but I also saw this on at least one occasion:

2022/10/04 01:03:59 1289.000000 failureStart sopwith_pup_sq1 0x0401100B engine_one 60.000000
2022/10/04 01:03:59 1289.000000 0x0401100B RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.300000
2022/10/04 01:03:59 1289.000000 0x0401100B overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/04 01:03:59 1289.000000 0x0401100B 0x00000004 engine_one 37 / 77
2022/10/04 01:04:01 1299.812500 AIF::LeaveFormation RFC-54-A ID(6001) 0x0401100B sopwith_pup_sq1 1

I am also using BHaH2 with the latest patch. The only difference I can see is the overallDamage value is different. So, the question is whether the overallDamage variable is dependent or independent of damageAmount_pct. The above suggests that it may be independent and is itself the trigger for "LeaveFormation" orders. Maybe there is some randomization involved with the overallDamage value? Perhaps to simulate random damage to a critical engine component?

The mystery deepens.


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4610440 - 10/05/22 06:02 PM Re: Possible Engine Mod [Re: Bletchley]  
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Are you using any mods that might effect this, BB?

Or maybe it is a difference in time period. Mine were taken from 1918, but I guess yours must be 1916/17

Not sure what else it could be....

B.

#4610475 - 10/05/22 10:34 PM Re: Possible Engine Mod [Re: Bletchley]  
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No, just weather mods. No FM or damage mods, other than the modified engine failure rules we have been testing.

I think the overallDamage value may randomly vary when a failure rule is triggered. Either that, or the higher the % failure, the higher the overallDamage value may be.


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4610486 - 10/06/22 05:32 AM Re: Possible Engine Mod [Re: Bletchley]  
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Hi BB, yes, no, maybe smile

The thing I don't understand at the moment is the different figures in the line:

2022/10/04 20:23:25 1367.000000 0x04011007 0x00000004 engine_one 1 / 65

2022/10/04 01:03:59 1289.000000 0x0401100B 0x00000004 engine_one 37 / 77

I have assumed that, as the format 1/65 and 37/77 is the same as the overallDamage format 1/10 (apparently, a fraction?), this must be a damage figure for the engine. But why is yours a base 77 and mine, consistently, a base 65 (regardless of aircraft or engine type)?

Unless 65 and 77 are not base values, but a percentage expressed as a fraction that can change, so 1.53% is expressed as 1/65 and 48.05% is expressed as 37/77 (in much the same way that you can express 0.25 as 1/4 or 2/8)?

The higher figures for yours, 2/10 and 37/77, might be explained by prior engine damage (flak or combat? Could you have missed that earlier in the log entry?), or may be the result of some inbuilt randomness (maybe the '30%' is not '30 hits' that cause accumulating damage 1-100 but a percentage chance of causing 'some' damage from an event, such as single bullet strike or engine failure, which is then applied as a variable and expressed as a fraction?). In my previous example of:

<FailureRule SystemID="engine_one" average_hrs="10" damageAmount_pct="1" frequency_secs="60" dump="y"/>

This could result in a 1% chance of causing damage every minute, so for a long time this might result in '0' damage until, by random chance, one of those rolls of the 100-sided die result in 'some' damage (which is variable)
With a single one-off 30 rolls of the same die there is therefore 30% chance of causing 'some' damage (but then, in my case, why is the 'variable' in each example 1/65 - just coincidence?)

Very mysterious, and intriguing, as you say...

Reverse engineering is such fun smile

Keep testing!

(Unless the weather changes I probably won't be able to do much testing now until next week as I am sailing at the weekend).

B.

#4610489 - 10/06/22 06:25 AM Re: Possible Engine Mod [Re: Bletchley]  
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Yes, no, maybe, I don't know... wink

Quote
The thing I don't understand at the moment is the different figures in the line:

2022/10/04 20:23:25 1367.000000 0x04011007 0x00000004 engine_one 1 / 65

2022/10/04 01:03:59 1289.000000 0x0401100B 0x00000004 engine_one 37 / 77

I have assumed that, as the format 1/65 and 37/77 is the same as the overallDamage format 1/10 (apparently, a fraction?), this must be a damage figure for the engine. But why is yours a base 77 and mine, consistently, a base 65 (regardless of aircraft or engine type)?

I looked up the hit point values for the engines in the Re8, Camel, and Alb DVa, in their respective .xdp files and found that they all have 45 hit points. The hit points for the Pup is 57. Therefore, it appears for purposes of the failure rules, that engines get a 20 point "bonus" that other components do not get when the failure rules are applied. As I suggested above, I think engines are treated differently than damage to the other components.

Quote
Unless 65 and 77 are not base values, but a percentage expressed as a fraction that can change, so 1.53% is expressed as 1/65 and 48.05% is expressed as 37/77 (in much the same way that you can express 0.25 as 1/4 or 2/8)?

Interesting. That is certainly a possibility that will have to be explored. However, I think the denominator for engines, at least, is always the hit point value + 20. I still have no idea how the numerator for engines are calculated.

Quote
The higher figures for yours, 2/10 and 37/77, might be explained by prior engine damage (flak or combat? Could you have missed that earlier in the log entry?), or may be the result of some inbuilt randomness (maybe the '30%' is not '30 hits' that cause accumulating damage 1-100 but a percentage chance of causing 'some' damage from an event, such as single bullet strike or engine failure, which is then applied as a variable and expressed as a fraction?). In my previous example of:

<FailureRule SystemID="engine_one" average_hrs="10" damageAmount_pct="1" frequency_secs="60" dump="y"/>

This could result in a 1% chance of causing damage every minute, so for a long time this might result in '0' damage until, by random chance, one of those rolls of the 100-sided die result in 'some' damage (which is variable)
With a single one-off 30 rolls of the same die there is therefore 30% chance of causing 'some' damage (but then, in my case, why is the 'variable' in each example 1/65 - just coincidence?)

Could be, but I can't say one way or another yet. I will post some more mysterious results later.

Cheers!


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4610491 - 10/06/22 08:11 AM Re: Possible Engine Mod [Re: Bletchley]  
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"I looked up the hit point values for the engines in the Re8, Camel, and Alb DVa, in their respective .xdp files and found that they all have 45 hit points. The hit points for the Pup is 57"


Ah..OK! That explains why I am getting x/65 and you are getting x/77, so I think we can discount my more convoluted theory smile


"The higher figures for yours, 2/10 and 37/77, might be explained by prior engine damage (flak or combat? Could you have missed that earlier in the log entry?), or may be the result of some inbuilt randomness (maybe the '30%' is not '30 hits' that cause accumulating damage 1-100 but a percentage chance of causing 'some' damage from an event, such as single bullet strike or engine failure, which is then applied as a variable and expressed as a fraction?). In my previous example of:

<FailureRule SystemID="engine_one" average_hrs="10" damageAmount_pct="1" frequency_secs="60" dump="y"/>

This could result in a 1% chance of causing damage every minute, so for a long time this might result in '0' damage until, by random chance, one of those rolls of the 100-sided die result in 'some' damage (which is variable)
With a single one-off 30 rolls of the same die there is therefore 30% chance of causing 'some' damage (but then, in my case, why is the 'variable' in each example 1/65 - just coincidence?)"


Thinking about this a bit more, it cannot be the explanation (or not the full explanation), because once the first damage has been registered (1/65) in an 'accumulator' further 1% per minute 'hits' appear to increase the damage in a linear way, rather than as a random 1/100 chance. The engine component does appear to absorb a (somewhat variable) number of 'hits' before registering any damage (whereas oil and coolant systems register damage immediately). If the variable is large enough it could explain why a one-off 30% 'hit' to my Camel engine resulted in only 1/65 damage, whereas the same 30% 'hit' to your Pup resulted in 37/77 damage. The problem with that, however, is that all of my 30% 'hits' appeared to yield a consistent 1/65 instead of a range of outcomes (just coincidence?)

B.

Last edited by Bletchley; 10/06/22 09:25 AM.
#4610710 - 10/08/22 09:58 PM Re: Possible Engine Mod [Re: Bletchley]  
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,523
BuckeyeBob Offline
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BuckeyeBob  Offline
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Posts: 1,523
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In a previous post, BB and Bletchley said:

Quote
"Damage that accumulates over time, e.g. <FailureRule SystemID="engine_one" average_hrs="150" damageAmount_pct="5" frequency_secs="112" dump="y"/> WILL result in engine destruction and/or fire when the hit points for the engine are eventually exhausted"

Quote
That may be so, or the engine might just conk out. We would have to test that. Or engine fires might be another 'threshold' event associated with a particular damage type, such as oil loss. I have not yet seen any engine fires in the logs as a result of engine failure. Does the engine reach 65/65 before it receives 100 hits? Or does one or the other cause an engine fire? I don't know, but I guess we can test for that...

I tested this, and DO NOT CLICK UNLESS YOU DON'T MIND KNOWING EXACTLY WHAT WILL HAPPEN WHEN THIS TYPE OF FAILURE OCCURS:


This type of engine damage eventually results in an engine fire and potential loss of the whole aircraft, unless the pilot lands as soon as possible. The same type of accumulating damage to other components such as oil or coolant reservoirs, does not result in fire and eventual loss of the whole aircraft. Instead, loss of either the oil or coolant reservoir will cause your engine to eventually lose power and conk out, but it will not catch fire, unless the engine itself has also suffered catastrophic damage. This is due to how damage to specific components is handled in each aircraft's .xdp file. "One-off' engine failures also do not result in engine fires, unless the engine accumulates further damage and exhausts all of its hit points.



“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4610766 - 10/09/22 11:53 PM Re: Possible Engine Mod [Re: Bletchley]  
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,523
BuckeyeBob Offline
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BuckeyeBob  Offline
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,523
Ohio, USA
Did some more testing today:

2022/10/05 22:02:54 682.000000 failureStart alb_dv_later_sq1 0x0401101A coolant_reservoir 285.000000
2022/10/05 22:02:54 682.000000 0x0401101A RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000002 coolant_reservoir 0.500000
2022/10/05 22:02:54 682.000000 0x0401101A overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/05 22:02:54 682.000000 0x0401101A 0x00000002 coolant_reservoir 16 / 32
2022/10/05 22:02:54 682.125000 AIF::LeaveFormation MFJ I-A ID(6005) 0x0401101A alb_dv_later_sq1 1

This seems pretty consistent with previous findings. A "one-off" failure, resulting in 0.50 damage to the coolant reservoir led directly to a 50% loss of hit points for this component, causing an immediate leave formation order.

Later, I changed a line in the failure rules to produce this kind of failure: "oil_reservoir" average_hrs="4" damageAmount_pct="6" frequency_secs="45" dump="y"/> This produced the following result:

2022/10/05 22:52:21 1327.000000 failureStart sopwith_pup_sqd 0x04011002 oil_reservoir 4.000000
2022/10/05 22:52:21 1327.000000 0x04011002 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000003 oil_reservoir 0.060000
2022/10/05 22:52:21 1327.000000 0x04011002 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/05 22:52:21 1327.000000 0x04011002 0x00000003 oil_reservoir 2 / 35
2022/10/05 22:52:21 1332.312500 AIF::LeaveFormation RFC-54-B ID(6000) 0x04011002 sopwith_pup_sqd 1

2022/10/05 22:52:48 1372.000000 0x04011002 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000003 oil_reservoir 0.060000
2022/10/05 22:52:48 1372.000000 0x04011002 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/05 22:52:48 1372.000000 0x04011002 0x00000003 oil_reservoir 9 / 35

2022/10/05 22:53:18 1417.000000 0x04011002 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000003 oil_reservoir 0.060000
2022/10/05 22:53:18 1417.000000 0x04011002 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/05 22:53:18 1417.000000 0x04011002 0x00000003 oil_reservoir 14 / 35

2022/10/05 22:54:03 1462.000000 0x04011002 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000003 oil_reservoir 0.060000
2022/10/05 22:54:03 1462.000000 0x04011002 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/05 22:54:03 1462.000000 0x04011002 0x00000003 oil_reservoir 18 / 35

2022/10/05 22:54:48 1507.000000 0x04011002 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000003 oil_reservoir 0.060000
2022/10/05 22:54:48 1507.000000 0x04011002 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/05 22:54:48 1507.000000 0x04011002 0x00000003 oil_reservoir 25 / 35

2022/10/05 22:55:33 1552.000000 0x04011002 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000003 oil_reservoir 0.060000
2022/10/05 22:55:33 1552.000000 0x04011002 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/05 22:55:33 1552.000000 0x04011002 0x00000003 oil_reservoir 32 / 35

A few observations:

1) As expected, this produced a "AddDamageToSystem_frac" of 0.06 every 45 seconds after the failure occurred.

2) However, this did not always translate into a 6% loss of hit points every 45 seconds. Here is a rundown:
00 seconds after failure: 02 / 35 = -02.1%
45 seconds after failure: 09 / 35 = -25.7%
90 seconds after failure: 14 / 35 = -40.0%
135 seconds after failure: 18 / 35 = -54.4%
180 seconds after failure: 25 / 35 = -71.4%
225 seconds after failure: 32 35 = -91.4% total loss of hit points. Right after this, my engine quit but did not catch fire. The biggest jump was between 0 and 45 seconds, with an increase of 23.6%. After that, the loss was fairly consistent around 15% every 45 seconds until the last report, when it jumped to 20%.

3) the overallDamage value did not change at all, probably representing no loss of structural integrity as a result of this failure. However, in another case involving an oil failure, I did observe an increase in this value over time. Perhaps there is a (hidden) random chance of this type of structural damage occurring?

4) I can't remember if I noticed any change in engine performance until 225 seconds after failure, when the oil hit points were completely exhausted.

Last edited by BuckeyeBob; 10/10/22 04:54 AM. Reason: added note 4)

“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4610781 - 10/10/22 04:42 AM Re: Possible Engine Mod [Re: Bletchley]  
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,523
BuckeyeBob Offline
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BuckeyeBob  Offline
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Joined: May 2016
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On more flight test to report. I'll put it behind a spoiler tag, mainly because the log is quite long.


engine_one damageAmount_pct="8" frequency_secs="30" dump="y"/>

2022/10/05 22:23:11 100.000000 failureStart sopwith_pup_sqd 0x04011002 engine_one 4.000000
2022/10/05 22:23:11 100.000000 0x04011002 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.080000
2022/10/05 22:23:11 100.000000 0x04011002 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/05 22:23:14 130.000000 0x04011002 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.080000
2022/10/05 22:23:14 130.000000 0x04011002 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/05 22:23:22 160.000000 0x04011002 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.080000
2022/10/05 22:23:22 160.000000 0x04011002 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/05 22:23:22 160.000000 0x04011002 0x00000004 engine_one 3 / 77

2022/10/05 22:23:51 190.000000 0x04011002 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.080000
2022/10/05 22:23:51 190.000000 0x04011002 overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/05 22:23:51 190.000000 0x04011002 0x00000004 engine_one 12 / 77

2022/10/05 22:24:06 220.000000 0x04011002 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.080000
2022/10/05 22:24:06 220.000000 0x04011002 overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/05 22:24:06 220.000000 0x04011002 0x00000004 engine_one 24 / 77
2022/10/05 22:24:06 220.062500 AIF::LeaveFormation RFC-54-B ID(6000) 0x04011002 sopwith_pup_sqd 1

2022/10/05 22:24:34 250.000000 0x04011002 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.080000
2022/10/05 22:24:34 250.000000 0x04011002 overallDamage 5 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/05 22:24:34 250.000000 0x04011002 0x00000004 engine_one 39 / 77

2022/10/05 22:25:04 280.000000 0x04011002 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.080000
2022/10/05 22:25:04 280.000000 0x04011002 overallDamage 5 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/05 22:25:04 280.000000 0x04011002 0x00000004 engine_one 50 / 77

2022/10/05 22:25:34 310.000000 0x04011002 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.080000
2022/10/05 22:25:34 310.000000 0x04011002 overallDamage 5 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/05 22:25:34 310.000000 0x04011002 0x00000004 engine_one 56 / 77

2022/10/05 22:26:00 340.000000 0x04011002 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.080000
2022/10/05 22:26:00 340.000000 0x04011002 overallDamage 5 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/05 22:26:00 340.000000 0x04011002 0x00000004 engine_one 62 / 77

2022/10/05 22:26:15 370.000000 0x04011002 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.080000
2022/10/05 22:26:15 370.000000 0x04011002 overallDamage 5 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/05 22:26:15 370.000000 0x04011002 0x00000004 engine_one 68 / 77

2022/10/05 22:26:44 400.000000 0x04011002 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.080000
2022/10/05 22:26:44 400.000000 0x04011002 overallDamage 8 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/05 22:26:44 400.000000 0x04011002 0x00000004 engine_one 74 / 77

2022/10/05 22:27:14 430.000000 0x04011002 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.080000
2022/10/05 22:27:14 430.000000 0x04011002 overallDamage 8 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/05 22:27:14 430.000000 0x04011002 0x00000004 engine_one 77 / 77

Notes:
1) This was an engine failure, with 8% of damage supposedly being applied every 30 seconds.
2) Nothing seems to happen until 60 seconds after the failure event is triggered, when the engine acquires 3.9% of damage (3 / 77) Note: hit points for the Pup engine is 57, but engines seem to get a 20 point "bonus" when failure rules are applied.
3) 90 seconds after the failure, and the engine now has 15.6% of damage (12 / 77) and the overallDamage goes from 0 / 10 to 2 / 10.
4) 120 seconds after the failure, and the engine now has 31% damage (24 / 77). The aircraft now leaves the formation. Note: this seems to occur when the engine loses somewhere between 20% and 30% of its hit points.
5) 150 seconds after the failure, and the engine now has 51% damage (39 / 77) and overallDamage jumps to 5 / 10.
6) OverallDamage stays at 5 / 10 until 300 seconds after the failure, when it jumps to 8 / 10. The engine continues to lose hit points.
7) 400 seconds after the failure, all of the engine hit points are expended, and

(Don't click unless you want to know exactly what happens)


the engine catches fire.

Make of that what you will!


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4611401 - 10/17/22 08:41 PM Re: Possible Engine Mod [Re: Bletchley]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 301
Bletchley Offline
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Bletchley  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 301
Hi BB

I have not had access to the Internet or WOFF for the past week, but I have started testing again...


Some observations: cumulative engine 'hits' (e.g. 1% per 60 seconds) seem to be fairly consistent in their outcomes (although there is some variation in the 'threshold' at which the first 'engine damage effect', in this case1/65, appears and some variation, as you have noted, in the progression). See below for a typical 1% cumulative:

2022/10/09 17:13:19 657.000000 failureStart camel_ac2 0x04011020 engine_one 10.000000
2022/10/09 17:13:19 657.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:13:19 657.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:14:19 717.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:14:19 717.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:14:44 742.125000 0x04011020 camel_ac2 TacticsJoinUp::InitJoinUp Waypoint 0x0401101F camel_ac1 InitFollower

2022/10/09 17:15:19 777.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:15:19 777.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:16:19 837.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:16:19 837.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:17:19 897.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:17:19 897.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:18:19 957.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:18:19 957.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:19:19 1017.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:19:19 1017.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:20:19 1077.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:20:19 1077.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:21:19 1137.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:21:19 1137.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:22:19 1197.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:22:19 1197.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:23:19 1257.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:23:19 1257.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:24:19 1317.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:24:19 1317.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:25:19 1377.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:25:19 1377.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:26:19 1437.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:26:19 1437.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:27:19 1497.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:27:19 1497.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:28:19 1557.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:28:19 1557.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:29:19 1617.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:29:19 1617.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:30:19 1677.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:30:19 1677.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:31:19 1737.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:31:19 1737.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:32:19 1797.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:32:19 1797.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:33:19 1857.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:33:19 1857.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:34:19 1917.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:34:19 1917.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:35:19 1977.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:35:19 1977.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:36:19 2037.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:36:19 2037.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0

2022/10/09 17:37:19 2097.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:37:19 2097.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:37:19 2097.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 1 / 65

2022/10/09 17:38:19 2157.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:38:19 2157.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:38:19 2157.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 1 / 65

2022/10/09 17:39:19 2217.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:39:19 2217.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:39:19 2217.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 1 / 65

2022/10/09 17:40:19 2277.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:40:19 2277.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:40:19 2277.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 2 / 65

2022/10/09 17:41:19 2337.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:41:19 2337.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:41:19 2337.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 2 / 65

2022/10/09 17:42:19 2397.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:42:19 2397.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:42:19 2397.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 2 / 65

2022/10/09 17:43:19 2457.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:43:19 2457.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:43:19 2457.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 4 / 65
2022/10/09 17:43:20 2458.125000 AIF::LeaveFormation AFC-4-A ID(6004) 0x04011020 camel_ac2 1
2022/10/09 17:43:20 2458.125000 TacsPush(TACS_TRANSIT_F) AFC-4-A 0x04011020 camel_ac2 APPEND
2022/10/09 17:43:20 2458.125000 AI_Formation::InitGoHome(GO_HOME_RUN) AFC-4-A 0x04011020 camel_ac2 td->code==TACS_TRANSIT_F
2022/10/09 17:43:20 2458.125000 TacsChange(TACS_GO_HOME) AFC-4-A 0x04011020 camel_ac2 REPLACE
2022/10/09 17:43:20 2458.125000 TacticsGoHome::InitGoHome GO_HOME_RUN AFC-4-A 0x04011020
2022/10/09 17:43:20 2458.125000 0x04011020 goFriendly run newWayptIx 6 currWayptIx 3 route.size 7
2022/10/09 17:43:20 2458.125000 AIF::InitTransit AFC-4-A 0x04011020 camel_ac2 6 Landing

2022/10/09 17:44:19 2517.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:44:19 2517.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:44:19 2517.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 4 / 65

2022/10/09 17:45:19 2577.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:45:19 2577.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 0 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:45:19 2577.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 5 / 65

2022/10/09 17:47:57 2637.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:47:57 2637.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:47:57 2637.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 7 / 65

2022/10/09 17:48:42 2682.875000 AIF::ArrivedAtWaypoint AFC-4-A 0x04011020 camel_ac2 ix 6 Landing
2022/10/09 17:48:42 2682.875000 TacsChange(TACS_LAND) AFC-4-A 0x04011020 camel_ac2 REPLACE
2022/10/09 17:48:42 2682.937500 TacticsLand::Start: 0x04011020 camel_ac2 Airfield: Mont-St-Eloi Altitude: 957.468750 Overall Damage: 20

2022/10/09 17:48:57 2697.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:48:57 2697.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:48:57 2697.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 8 / 65

2022/10/09 17:49:57 2757.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:49:57 2757.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:49:57 2757.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 8 / 65

2022/10/09 17:50:57 2817.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:50:57 2817.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:50:57 2817.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 8 / 65

2022/10/09 17:51:57 2877.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:51:57 2877.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:51:57 2877.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 10 / 65

2022/10/09 17:52:57 2937.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:52:57 2937.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:52:57 2937.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 12 / 65

2022/10/09 17:53:57 2997.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:53:57 2997.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:53:57 2997.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 14 / 65

2022/10/09 17:54:57 3057.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:54:57 3057.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:54:57 3057.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 14 / 65

2022/10/09 17:55:47 3107.500000 AIF::ArrivedAtWaypoint AFC-4-A 0x04011020 camel_ac2 ix 7 Landing
2022/10/09 17:55:47 3107.500000 TacsChange(TACS_LAND) AFC-4-A 0x04011020 camel_ac2 REPLACE
2022/10/09 17:55:47 3107.562500 TacticsLand::Start: 0x04011020 camel_ac2 Airfield: Mont-St-Eloi Altitude: 419.937500 Overall Damage: 20

2022/10/09 17:55:57 3117.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:55:57 3117.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:55:57 3117.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 14 / 65

2022/10/09 17:56:57 3177.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:56:57 3177.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:56:57 3177.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 16 / 65

2022/10/09 17:57:57 3237.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:57:57 3237.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:57:57 3237.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 18 / 65

2022/10/09 17:58:57 3297.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:58:57 3297.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:58:57 3297.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 18 / 65

2022/10/09 17:59:35 3335.250000 0x04011020 camel_ac2 THRESHOLD ARW 16.265625 speed 24.461600 rangeFromEnd_local 554.869326 rangeFromEnd 554.918118 nearTheEnd 250.000000 reallyNearTheEnd 50.000000

2022/10/09 17:59:42 3342.687500 0x04011020 camel_ac2 ON_FIELD ARW 1.414063 speed 23.221055 rangeFromEnd_local 378.102488 rangeFromEnd 378.143059 nearTheEnd 250.000000 reallyNearTheEnd 50.000000

2022/10/09 17:59:49 3348.937500 0x04011020 camel_ac2 TAXI ARW 1.445313 speed 18.545766 rangeFromEnd_local 249.928009 rangeFromEnd 249.959270 nearTheEnd 250.000000 reallyNearTheEnd 50.000000

2/10/09 17:59:57 3357.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 17:59:57 3357.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 17:59:57 3357.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 18 / 65

2/10/09 18:00:03 3363.687500 0x04011020 camel_ac2 PARK: ENGINE OFF: 49.697956 ARW 1.367188 speed 8.053512 rangeFromEnd_local 49.644427 rangeFromEnd 49.697956 nearTheEnd 250.000000 reallyNearTheEnd 50.000000
2022/10/09 18:00:08 3368.500000 0x04011020 camel_ac2 DONE ARW 1.351563 speed 0.069639 rangeFromEnd_local 28.965034 rangeFromEnd 29.048311 nearTheEnd 250.000000 reallyNearTheEnd 50.000000

2/10/09 18:01:41 3417.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 18:01:41 3417.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 18:01:41 3417.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 18 / 65

2/10/09 18:02:41 3477.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 18:02:41 3477.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 18:02:41 3477.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 20 / 65

2/10/09 18:03:41 3537.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 18:03:41 3537.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 18:03:41 3537.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 22 / 65

2/10/09 18:04:41 3597.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 18:04:41 3597.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 18:04:41 3597.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 25 / 65

2/10/09 18:05:41 3657.000000 0x04011020 RunFailure AddDamageToSystem_frac 0x00000004 engine_one 0.010000
2022/10/09 18:05:41 3657.000000 0x04011020 overallDamage 2 / 10 dontTouchFlag 0 deadFlag 0 deletePendingFlag 0
2022/10/09 18:05:41 3657.000000 0x04011020 0x00000004 engine_one 27 / 65

The first 'damage effect' of 1/65, in this case, came at the 25th 1% 'hit' to the engine. In other cases I have seen this at the 31st 'hit', 33rd 'hit', 41st 'hit' etc.: so there is considerable variation, but the progression thereafter is rapid (though not consistent, as you have noted) and, strangely, appears to continue even after the aircraft has landed and the engine is switched off! The AI pilot will generally break formation and head for home once the 'damage effect' reaches 4/65 (although I think this can vary slightly as well). The AI pilot generally brings the aircraft safely back and lands successfully, but as 'damage effect' continues to go up even after the engine has been switched off I guess there must be the possibility that aircraft that have landed safely may eventually burst into flames if the game continues for long enough (!) I have seen the same basic pattern with a 5% cumulative engine 'hit', where the first 5 hits (5x5 total 25) appeared to have no effect, but the 6th resulted in a 4/65 'damage effect', the next 8/65 (overallDamage now 2/10), the next 14/65, the next 20/65, the next 27/65, and the next 36/65 (overallDamage rising to 5/65 at this point).

B.







Last edited by Bletchley; 10/17/22 08:42 PM.
#4611442 - 10/18/22 11:34 AM Re: Possible Engine Mod [Re: Bletchley]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 301
Bletchley Offline
Member
Bletchley  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 301
"a one-off 30% 'hit' to my Camel engine resulted in only 1/65 damage, whereas the same 30% 'hit' to your Pup resulted in 37/77 damage"

This seems to be quite consistent in my tests so far - engines with 77 hit points appear to be far more fragile than those with 65 hit points. They seem to consistently take far more damage from a 30% one-off hit. Not sure yet if this is the same for cumulative damage as well, but your example suggests that it is. Rather odd! The difference is really quite extreme.

Also, I have noticed that you do not need a 100% one-off hit to completely destroy an engine - I had a case in which a 70% one-off hit caused an immediate 65/65 damage to the engine resulting in almost immediate destruction of the aircraft.

B.

#4612141 - 10/27/22 10:50 PM Re: Possible Engine Mod [Re: Bletchley]  
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,523
BuckeyeBob Offline
Member
BuckeyeBob  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,523
Ohio, USA
Hi, B.

Sorry to not respond until now. Got some personal issues going on.

Yeah, there is still a lot of randomness going on behind the scenes that we don't fully understand, but I don't think we necessarily need to figure it out. As long as we get roughly predictable failure rates, I don't think it matters too much about how that damage plays out in each individual situation. Perhaps we should now focus on fine-tuning the different levels of failure rates and assigning them to the correct aircraft?

Best,
Chris


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4612270 - 10/29/22 06:38 AM Re: Possible Engine Mod [Re: Bletchley]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 301
Bletchley Offline
Member
Bletchley  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 301
Hi BB,

No worries, I have just been plugging away at logging damage effects, when time allows smile

Yeah, the damage effects appear to be somewhat random, but I am getting the impression that the more 'extreme' randomness is associated with the larger 'hits'. So maybe the variability is proportional to the size of the 'hit'.

The smaller 'hits' associated with incremental damage effects appear more consistent - up to a 5% setting at least.

I don't really like the one-off 70% hits - so far every single occurrence has resulted in total destruction of the engine and complete destruction of the aircraft (presumably by fire) just seconds later. I guess this did happen, but from a game-playing point of view this instant and random 'end of career' event is a bit of a downer. I am currently experimenting with a 50% setting instead, to see if this results in enough damage to force an immediate emergency landing without the instant death and destruction effect of the 70% setting.

I am not sure I really like the one-off damage effect at 31% either - this seems to result in either large damage effects, or almost none at all (the AI pilots in the latter case continue as normal, though I guess their engine is now more fragile should any further damage occur from any cause). But maybe that is good.

On the whole, I think I prefer the incremental damage settings...

B.

Last edited by Bletchley; 10/29/22 06:40 AM.
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