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#4597016 - 04/14/22 11:20 AM State of current AI makes WoFF Unplayable  
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Ace_Pilto Offline
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I don't know what happened to this game but, lately, every time I fly remotely near a friendly AI they start behaving erratically and either crash into me or lose control and smash into the ground. I'm also getting suicide attacks by ridiculously agressive 2 seaters who have are able to hit my aircraft from ridiculous ranges and angles. What's going on with this? I can' even get remotely tinterested in finishing a mission, let alone a campaign, due to this nonsense. Sorry had to be said, WoFF is completely broken for me due to these issues.


Let's pretend I got the BWOC badge to embed here.

Wenn ihr sieg im deine Kampf selbst gegen, wirst stark wie Stahl sein.
"The best techniques are passed on by the survivors." - Gaiden Shinji
#4597017 - 04/14/22 11:39 AM Re: State of current AI makes WoFF Unplayable [Re: Ace_Pilto]  
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Polovski Offline
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No one else is reporting this, so what version? And what PC specs? Is it a particular squadron/date or aircraft ?

As WOFF has some of the best (if not the best) AI out there, I assume it was working fine at some point before?
So probably a broken installation - or maybe you have installed MODS, FM MODs etc.

Do a clean uninstall and clean out and re-install as per the FAQ section 17.

Otherwise, something else interfering, such as Anti Virus blocking OFF.dll or something weird.

Also don't forget there's a TON of randomness you could see 3 collisions in a row, even 3 random engine failures in the AI whatever, and then none for a year wink.


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4597048 - 04/14/22 03:18 PM Re: State of current AI makes WoFF Unplayable [Re: Ace_Pilto]  
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BuckeyeBob Offline
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While I haven't experienced any significant increase in collisions or erratic AI behavior, I have noticed that some two-seaters, especially Strutters, have become much more aggressive, even suicidal, at times. Others, such as Fullofit, have also commented on this, so I don't think it is nonsense.

In regard to the increased collisions, Ace, are you by any chance using JJJ's Multimod? There is a setting that controls AI collision distance. Perhaps it has been changed from stock?


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4597089 - 04/14/22 08:45 PM Re: State of current AI makes WoFF Unplayable [Re: Ace_Pilto]  
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Polovski Offline
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I'm referring to "....every time I fly remotely near a friendly AI they start behaving erratically and either crash into me or lose control and smash into the ground"
which is quite dramatically different from some AI being more aggressive sometimes.




Last edited by Polovski; 04/14/22 08:46 PM.

Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4597103 - 04/14/22 11:09 PM Re: State of current AI makes WoFF Unplayable [Re: Ace_Pilto]  
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BuckeyeBob Offline
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I agree. The two are not the same. Ace may have been exaggerating just a bit about the first situation.


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4597124 - 04/15/22 10:12 AM Re: State of current AI makes WoFF Unplayable [Re: Ace_Pilto]  
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Polovski Offline
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We'll have to see, we need specifics to be able to tell for sure, and no-one else has reported it yet, so who knows. If it is a problem, lurking somewhere we'd need to know how to reproduce it. Squad/date/aircraft type - maybe weather and so on, too many variables. Also need to know if any Mods are involved etc, anyway as per my post above.


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4597230 - 04/16/22 01:40 PM Re: State of current AI makes WoFF Unplayable [Re: Ace_Pilto]  
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Fullofit Offline
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Since Bob mentioned my name I feel compelled to comment. I am not sure which conditions Ace is thinking of when writing of AI crashing into his plane, or each other, but that’s always been part of WoFF. Perhaps spreading the formation further apart could solve that. I’ve noticed this occurs most frequently when part of flight suddenly notices the enemy and makes a sudden move and flies straight into the other part of the flight that continues straight on ignoring the enemy. Or when they’re circling the field to land and two planes are too close to each other without either of them yielding. They also crash into the trees at the edge of some airfields and obviously into the craters on the airfield after a raid.
The second part he mentions about suicidal and unrealistically aggressive two-seaters I’ve experienced as well. I didn’t bring it up because no one else seemed to have the same problem. For me it is when flying German planes against Strutters and Breguets and to a lesser degree D.H.4’s. They all behave like Brisfits with their self-preservation attribute dialled down to zero. They will attack superior numbers of Fokker D.VIIs without a second thought. It makes no difference what conditions are around. Clear skies or rain, the enemy flight above or below yours. They will always attack with extreme prejudice. And we’re talking about 1918 where the Strutters are obsolete. German two-seaters, on the other hand, fly straight and level like proper juicy targets. I’ve noticed this behaviour since the introduction of BHAH2 and thought perhaps my installation went wonky, so did a clean install, but it made no difference. There’s plenty of footage of this behaviour in the DiD thread posted by yours truly.


"Take the cylinder out of my kidneys,
The connecting rod out of my brain, my brain,
From out of my arse take the camshaft,
And assemble the engine again."
#4597241 - 04/16/22 02:57 PM Re: State of current AI makes WoFF Unplayable [Re: Ace_Pilto]  
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Albert Tross Offline
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I can't say I've noticed any increase in aircraft crashing into each other. The very aggressive two seaters is something I've experienced since BHAHII came out.

Is it excessive? Hmmm not sure. Certainly, the wrath of the Breguets, Strutters and DH4's in 1918 is considerable, but that is partly due to the fact the aircraft are so much better than those before them (FE2b's, RE8's, Caudrons etc).

I don't think anyone wants two seaters to fly in straight lines again whilst being slaughtered, yes it makes kills easier but it's totally unrealistic, no-one is going to plod along quite happily whilst being shot to bits.

I don't know if the AI aggressiveness is an on/off switch in the game programming or a gradable number. If it's the latter, maybe some tweaking of the numbers depending on aircraft type can be done.

Certainly though, no AI aircraft should simply fly along whilst getting blasted. Anymore than two Breguets should launch an attack on a Jasta's worth of aircraft.

One thing though, it does seem to affect only entente aircraft. The German two seaters (Roland's aside) simply evade by curving away.


"A great deal of an aeroplane could be holed without affecting its ability to fly. Wings and fuselage could be—and often were—pierced in 50 places, missing the occupants by inches (blissfully unaware of how close it had come until they returned to base). Then the sailmaker would carefully cover each hole with a square inch of Irish linen frayed at the edges and with a brushful of dope make our aircraft 'serviceable' again within an hour."
#4597243 - 04/16/22 03:17 PM Re: State of current AI makes WoFF Unplayable [Re: Ace_Pilto]  
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BuckeyeBob Offline
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Since I dragged Fullofit into this, I guess I better step in to defend him. wink

Although I did not participate in the DiD challenge, I have observed this behavior by Strutters and DH4's (and some other two-seaters) in my own personal campaigns. As Fullofit said, these aircraft tend to be very aggressive. In pre-BHaH2 days, this behavior may have had something to do with their being designated as "fighter_bombers" as opposed to "bombers", but I have noticed in BHaH2 that all aircraft are now designated as "fighter_bombers" so something else must be going on.

Since not all two-seaters act this way, perhaps there is something "special" about these aircraft? Fees and Be2's, for example, don't generally act this way, perhaps because they aren't very nimble to begin with, as suggested by Albert? Maybe the relative nimbleness of Strutters and some of the other "dual-role" two-seaters, combined with the fact that the AI in CFS3 benefits from being able to ignore certain physical limitations such as dive-speed and maybe G-factor (not sure about that) contributes to this behavior?

Here's another thought--is it possible that these very aggressive Strutters are flown by aces in elite squadrons? Maybe by 1918, all Strutter pilots should be rookies? biggrin

Last edited by BuckeyeBob; 04/16/22 03:19 PM.

“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4597251 - 04/16/22 05:04 PM Re: State of current AI makes WoFF Unplayable [Re: Ace_Pilto]  
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I suppose that is because CFS3 recognizes only two categories of aircraft - either "with fixed gun" or "without fixed gun". The former behave as fighter-bombers while the latter as a bomber only. That was main PIA for FE-2B in WOFF. BHaHII version should this division somehow limit, but I do not know to what extent.

#4597257 - 04/16/22 06:02 PM Re: State of current AI makes WoFF Unplayable [Re: Ace_Pilto]  
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Polovski Offline
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Fighter bombers will always be able to engage as JJJ says. Strutters etc have always been fighter_bombers, and in real life were used to escort other craft sometimes, so were far from terrible. A strutter was a decent aircraft with a forward and rear firing -guns seems a fair chance against other aircraft.
FE2b we gave the ability to dogfight too as it did not stay placid and get slaughtered normally. However, this is turning into a different thread from what was started.. "AI unplayable"

Last edited by Polovski; 04/16/22 06:09 PM.

Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4597259 - 04/16/22 06:13 PM Re: State of current AI makes WoFF Unplayable [Re: JJJ65]  
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Albert Tross Offline
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Originally Posted by JJJ65
I suppose that is because CFS3 recognizes only two categories of aircraft - either "with fixed gun" or "without fixed gun". The former behave as fighter-bombers while the latter as a bomber only.


Thanks Jara, so in essence, it is an on/off switch rather than something that can be 'tweaked'.

Pol - With that in mind, could we have the Hannover switched over to fighter bomber rather than bomber? Apparently the Hannover was quite handy in a dogfight and sometimes used to escort more cumbersome types. That would at least give the entente pilots more of a challenge in 1918 rather than just the Germans.


"A great deal of an aeroplane could be holed without affecting its ability to fly. Wings and fuselage could be—and often were—pierced in 50 places, missing the occupants by inches (blissfully unaware of how close it had come until they returned to base). Then the sailmaker would carefully cover each hole with a square inch of Irish linen frayed at the edges and with a brushful of dope make our aircraft 'serviceable' again within an hour."
#4597264 - 04/16/22 06:38 PM Re: State of current AI makes WoFF Unplayable [Re: Ace_Pilto]  
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BuckeyeBob Offline
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Overall, the AI is quite excellent. I think most everyone agrees with that. Everyone also agrees that the Strutter A2 was a very capable aircraft for its time and was certainly capable of defending itself, even in 1918. The problem is Strutter A2's acting in an offensive role in 1918. Is there any record of Strutter A2's being used in such a way by 1918?


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4597269 - 04/16/22 07:07 PM Re: State of current AI makes WoFF Unplayable [Re: Ace_Pilto]  
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Polovski Offline
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Thanks but can we stay from mod talk here please in this thread starting to get messy. Be careful putting old files into BH&H II.

It's possible Albert, it depends on what else it would affect but we can consider.


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4597270 - 04/16/22 07:29 PM Re: State of current AI makes WoFF Unplayable [Re: Ace_Pilto]  
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Polovski Offline
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We have tried to recreate the behaviours where possible from via FM and roles etc, but a quick search..

https://warbirdtails.net/2015/02/14/sopwiths-first-world-war-part-2-the-sopwith-1-12-strutter/

"In July 1916 the Strutter became the first Sopwith to be involved in a dogfight, when a pair from No. 5 Wing spotted a formation of enemy aircraft near Ostend. They dived down to attack but shortly after starting the forward firing gun in one aircraft jammed, as did the rear facing gun of the other, providing a less than fair fight!
The Strutter performed well during this time, the Fokkers dominance had been overcome and the Sopwith’s increased performance led to long range patrols over German territory"

"Though the Strutter was soon outclassed as a gun platform, that didn’t stop it gathering a number of aces, with the most impressive among them being Geoffrey Cock, who claimed 13 kills in the type:" staring April 1916.



Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4603412 - 07/11/22 08:30 AM Re: State of current AI makes WoFF Unplayable [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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Ace_Pilto Offline
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No, forming up on any friendly causes them to take evaice action and eat.. well... #%&*$#.


Let's pretend I got the BWOC badge to embed here.

Wenn ihr sieg im deine Kampf selbst gegen, wirst stark wie Stahl sein.
"The best techniques are passed on by the survivors." - Gaiden Shinji
#4603416 - 07/11/22 10:30 AM Re: State of current AI makes WoFF Unplayable [Re: Ace_Pilto]  
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Polovski Offline
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There's a lot of different info here, but well have a look when possible regarding 2 seaters attacking too much.

The form up we can't see anything wrong there - others have no problem forming up, so we'd need much more specifics. As I say make sure you are not using any modified files (especially cfs3.exe) and Anti Virus is not blocking access to any WOFF dlls.
Which squad/aircraft/date are you flying, are others in the flight novices? What are they flying. How do you approach and so on, We'd need to reproduce to be able to see it and fix anything if there is a problem somewhere.
It has to be a totally fresh WOFF of course no MODs added at any time etc.

Last edited by Polovski; 07/11/22 09:43 PM.

Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4603517 - 07/12/22 02:46 PM Re: State of current AI makes WoFF Unplayable [Re: Ace_Pilto]  
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Bletchley Offline
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In the last 100+ missions flying BH&H II + Recon Wars (no mods) I have not noticed an unusual number of collisions. I have only collided once with AI whilst in formation (and that was my fault, as just finishing a photo run I 'forgot' that the AI were formed up on me and pulled a hard bank to reverse 180 degrees in order to make for home). I do tend to form up loosely on the flight leader, as the AI pilot will (naturally) take evasive action if I get too close, and this has led to several near misses. I have not noticed the AI pilots colliding with one another on a regular basis, or very much at all, either when flying in formation or in combat. As for very aggressive 2-seaters, I haven't really noticed that either, although I generally feel that I am the No.1 target for any AI in sight - maybe because they identify me as a 'straggler' due to my rather loose formation keeping.

#4603535 - 07/12/22 07:16 PM Re: State of current AI makes WoFF Unplayable [Re: Ace_Pilto]  
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Polovski Offline
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Thanks Bletchley it's pretty much how we see it. You WILL get collisions if there are sudden movement as you would in real life. There should be collisions, they are not robots, we try hard to avoid AI being so. You can sometimes get two individual AI's choosing to break in different directions, and that brings them into contact - just as it would in real life. When a swirling dogfight starts, avoiding a collision is tough for people too.
For formations, close in slowly, don't rush in hoping to kill the speed suddenly that rarely works. If it takes 10 minutes to slowly get into place then so be it.

We just decided to work on some new code for 2 seaters - when and how they fight (and possibly other aircraft) we think it's really cool and will be useful in WOFF and WOTR. More later..



Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4603536 - 07/12/22 07:29 PM Re: State of current AI makes WoFF Unplayable [Re: Ace_Pilto]  
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Bletchley Offline
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Just finished a mission where my flight of 2 x Caudron C4 passed within easy visual distance of a fllight of 2 x Aviatik C1, both at the same altitude. Both flight leaders stuck to their course, neither flight tried to engage the other, which seems right to me. No sign there of super aggressive AI 2-seaters. Both had a mission and stuck to it. In a BE2c I have been chased back across the lines by a Roland C II though, from a Schutzstaffel, which also seems correct behaviour. Got shot up a bit, and in the excitement forgot to drop my recon notes at the HQ, so I guess the Roland pilot had the last laugh. I look forward to anything new with regard to 2-seaters smile

Last edited by Bletchley; 07/12/22 07:35 PM.
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