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#4587515 - 12/20/21 06:14 PM Re: Changes needed to 2-seater campaigns [Re: 33lima]  
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BuckeyeBob Offline
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An alternative approach, assuming you survive that long, is to take the first pic, save it, and return to base. The next time you are assigned a recon mission, ignore the flight path orders, and instead, return to the area where you took the first pic (assuming you remember)! Try to take a new pic of the same target in the pic you took before. Compare the two pics as above. Voila!


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4587516 - 12/20/21 06:19 PM Re: Changes needed to 2-seater campaigns [Re: 33lima]  
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BuckeyeBob Offline
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Possible additional rule for taking the second pic: you can take as many as 4-8 pics of the target. However, you must wait at least 30-60 seconds or more between pics to simulate having to change the photographic plates.

Can anyone think of anything else?

Edit: additional rule two: When in the act of taking the pic, you can only use max zoom in and max zoom out--no zoom levels in between. This simulates shifting from looking through the camera lens to looking around with your eyeballs to "get your bearings" (or fly the plane, as the case may be). The max zoom also makes it harder to get the two pics to match.

Last edited by BuckeyeBob; 12/20/21 07:46 PM. Reason: added second additional rule

“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4587518 - 12/20/21 06:28 PM Re: Changes needed to 2-seater campaigns [Re: 33lima]  
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VonS Offline
WWI Flight Sims on a Mac
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Great ideas BB -- might have to try a two-seater campaign (circa 1915) using your suggestions, one of these days when I find more free time from work (and modding). In terms of trouble loading the MultiMod, as per earlier posts in this thread, if I remember correctly --- the 64bit version of Java should be installed for the MissionEd and MultiMod to work properly with BH&H2 (also works fine that way with WOFF UE/PE, and older versions of the MissionEd and MultiMod). It's possible that such directions were never officially written out in the relevant Read Me files but that I stumbled upon this a couple of yrs. ago (so apologies for any confusion regarding 32/64bit Java) -- but it works well on my rig and would recommend loading 64bit Java on other rigs too, for further stability/compatibility with the BH&H2-era mods done by JJJ. With 64bit Java loaded, I've never had the MissionEd or MultiMod not load properly, either in my WOFF PE/UE 4.18 backport or in BH&H2.

Cheers all and happy tinkering,
Von S smile2

Last edited by VonS; 12/20/21 06:33 PM. Reason: Edited post.

~ For my various FM/AI/FPS/DM Mods. for First Eagles 2, WoFF, RoF & WoTR, and tips for FlightGear, recommended is to check over my CombatAce profile (https://combatace.com/profile/86760-vons/) and to click on the "About Me" tab while there. ~
#4587530 - 12/20/21 07:36 PM Re: Changes needed to 2-seater campaigns [Re: 33lima]  
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BuckeyeBob Offline
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Good advice, VonS, although in the Mods forum, Jara has said that the Multimod is not yet compatible with BHaH2. All I know is that the Multimod at least opens for me when I run it. I will have to confirm whether it actually makes any changes to BHaH2, however.

Edit: added additional rule #2 in above post.

Last edited by BuckeyeBob; 12/20/21 07:44 PM.

“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4589894 - 01/22/22 06:56 PM Re: Changes needed to 2-seater campaigns [Re: 33lima]  
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Becker01 Offline
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Hallo @Bletchley,

short feedback:
I have tested your 2 mods now since a few weeks. The central point is the briefing, more realistic, more historical; a good thing! Also I have tried to simulate more historical solo-flights (in relation to the the first posting from @33lima) by reducing fuel at 10 -5%. That has functioned with Aviatek B1 and 2 but not with Av-C. This type has always crashed when the AI-pilot has tried to fly back to the airfield (also with 15% fuel it has happened).

To be honest, I have not believed before that a bomber-campaign can be such an exciting variance. You start and all is okay. Closer to the frontline you need more and more concentration. And then try to make your mission and then ... SURVIVE! Back to the airfield you can relax slowly after a few minutes/Km. The new patch and the "incursion range" reinforces this feeling; good and realistic effect in my opinion!

Greetings!

#4589903 - 01/22/22 08:57 PM Re: Changes needed to 2-seater campaigns [Re: Becker01]  
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JJJ65 Offline
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Originally Posted by Becker01
Hallo @Bletchley,

short feedback:
I have tested your 2 mods now since a few weeks. The central point is the briefing, more realistic, more historical; a good thing! Also I have tried to simulate more historical solo-flights (in relation to the the first posting from @33lima) by reducing fuel at 10 -5%. That has functioned with Aviatek B1 and 2 but not with Av-C. This type has always crashed when the AI-pilot has tried to fly back to the airfield (also with 15% fuel it has happened).

To be honest, I have not believed before that a bomber-campaign can be such an exciting variance. You start and all is okay. Closer to the frontline you need more and more concentration. And then try to make your mission and then ... SURVIVE! Back to the airfield you can relax slowly after a few minutes/Km. The new patch and the "incursion range" reinforces this feeling; good and realistic effect in my opinion!

Greetings!

You can simply remove squad mates with Mission Editor without fuel quantity alchemy wink . Just delete them and that is all. You can also modify waypoints (flight path), altitudes, etc. etc.

#4589904 - 01/22/22 09:34 PM Re: Changes needed to 2-seater campaigns [Re: 33lima]  
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Becker01 Offline
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Hallo @JJJ65,

Yes, I know. But I don't work with Java, so I try other solutions.


Greetings!

#4591101 - 02/08/22 01:23 PM Re: Changes needed to 2-seater campaigns [Re: Becker01]  
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Winding Man Offline
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Ill look into these for an upcoming patch - no promises when.

Ta

WM


OBD Software
#4591104 - 02/08/22 02:25 PM Re: Changes needed to 2-seater campaigns [Re: Winding Man]  
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Adger Offline
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Originally Posted by Winding Man
Ill look into these for an upcoming patch - no promises when.

Ta

WM



Wow great news, cheers WM.


They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.
#4591266 - 02/10/22 12:34 PM Re: Changes needed to 2-seater campaigns [Re: 33lima]  
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Wodin Offline
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Say you have to take 5 pics. SO each time you have to fly straight and level aswell as have good view of target and be at a good height. Obviously turbulence etc will always effect your pics so if you get back safely your pics are then rated. You have to get at least one great photo out of the five. TO take a photo say you have to hold down a key for a set time or you have to do some sort of key combination or have it to do with timing anyway something could be thought up for this part of the procedure. Also say your attacked on the way home or crash land then the slides have a chance of being damaged.

#4591921 - 02/17/22 04:48 PM Re: Changes needed to 2-seater campaigns [Re: 33lima]  
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jeanba Offline
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Originally Posted by 33lima
Based on much frustrating experience, here's some changes I feel are needed to make 2-seater campaigns less frustrating, less unrealistic and less likely to meet a very early end, even with AI gunnery effectiveness toned right down.

Much of this experience is with previous versions of WoFF but having switched to the generally excellent and much improved BH&H II (which I highly recommend) I'm seeing the same issues, so far.

Just to be clear, this applies mostly to campaigns in squadrons flying ''working aeroplanes', less so those operating machines with some claim to be able to operate as 'fighting aeroplanes' like the FE2, Strutter and of course Bristol F2B. Also primarily to RFC campaigns, though I don't think German ones should be much different - for these types of aircraft, the 'bog standard' 2-seaters like the DFW.

1. Working aeroplanes should - nearly always - fly art obs, recce and 'contact patrol' missions ALONE. Not now, as a complete B Flight and sometimes with A Flight along for the ride. And yes, I do know of exceptions, I have read a lot of the relevant material. One exception might might be a recce mission to a dangerous target, which might get escorted by other squadron aircraft. Bombing missions should be the only ones that working aeroplanes routinely fly in flight or squadron strength.






This was not always the case for the French Air Force.
Starting from late 1916, they frequently flew in a close formation of 2 seaters, with one performing the mission and the other two checking for ennemy planes and providing close cover.
The doctrine further evoluted when C3 planes were added (the Salmson Moineau, then Caudron R4, Letords and later Caudron R11) which were dedicated to escorting the recon plane.

I have a list of recon missions betwen May and July 1918, and I would say that recon missions were very often performed this way (often 3 planes, sometimes more). The exception was when the recon was a single seat (Spad 7 / 13, Morane AI), for artillery spotting or when the recon plane stayed inside or very close to French lines (contact patrol, in French "mission de jalonnement").
Of course, by night, they flew alone as the risk of interception was lower than the risk of collision

Last edited by jeanba; 02/17/22 04:49 PM.
#4591969 - 02/17/22 09:59 PM Re: Changes needed to 2-seater campaigns [Re: jeanba]  
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33lima Offline
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Thanks for that Jeanba, don't know much about the French practice (except that they had those escort aircraft designed for that role, which don't feature in WoFF anyway) or the German, except as often described in RFC/RAF sources (for whom of course escort was one of the roles originally envisaged for 'C light' types).

And of course there's that Jan 1916 RFC order that recce aircraft were, for the time being anyway, to be accompanied by at least 3 'fighting machines' (probably from the same squadron).

It's very hard to come up with a single formula that suits every air force for every stage of the war, except that:

- art obs and contact patrol aircraft should probably be alone by default;
- bombers could often have some form of escort; and
- recce aircraft might be one aircraft but sometimes more, up to a whole flight.

I think a max of two is probably a good 'universal' compromise (except for bombing missions) and much better than the current default, which seems to be a whole flight for the whole war.


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#4591994 - 02/18/22 09:53 AM Re: Changes needed to 2-seater campaigns [Re: 33lima]  
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jeanba Offline
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The C3 planes (Salmson Moineau / Caudron R4 / Letord) was an answer to the difficulties to provide escort by standard single seaters for various reasons (differences in performances and range / difficulty to synchronize without Radio). When not available, C3 were replaced with Two seaters of the same units. Early in the war, one plane was equipped for recon (camera ...), the other not but armament was reinforced (weight was critical), this explains why you could see Caudron G4 (for instance) in so many weapon configurations

Note that Caudron R11 recon flights were often also made by groups of 3 : at the end of the war, the french reverted to "one aircraft type / recon mission".
Example 2/3/6 Breguet 14 for a recon mission or 3 RXI

Last edited by jeanba; 02/18/22 09:54 AM.
#4592376 - 02/22/22 04:14 PM Re: Changes needed to 2-seater campaigns [Re: 33lima]  
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Bletchley Offline
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German recon missions were of two distinct kinds - there were the high altitude long photo recon missions across the lines flown by single high altitude adapted aircraft from dedicated recon units using cameras with long focal length lenses (70cm), and then there were the 'standard' photo recon missions that were flown behind the German lines at about 10,000 ft to take oblique photos of the British/French lines with cameras using medium focal length lenses (50cm) that were then 'rectified' for use in mapping the trench lines. The high altitude missions had no escort. The lower altitude missions generally had a 'schusta' escort of a single two-seater from a unit usually based on the same field as the recon unit. Very rarely, a lower-ranking jasta would be tasked with providing an escort, mostly I think in the last year of the war when the 'schusta' units converted to a ground-attach 'schlasta' role and would sometimes be otherwise engaged on active fronts. I don't think the elite jastas would fly escort missions. Art Obs missions were flown either without escort, or with a 'schusta' escort. Bombing missions were flown almost entirely by night, so did not receive any escort.

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