Based on much frustrating experience, here's some changes I feel are needed to make 2-seater campaigns less frustrating, less unrealistic and less likely to meet a very early end, even with AI gunnery effectiveness toned right down.

Much of this experience is with previous versions of WoFF but having switched to the generally excellent and much improved BH&H II (which I highly recommend) I'm seeing the same issues, so far.

Just to be clear, this applies mostly to campaigns in squadrons flying ''working aeroplanes', less so those operating machines with some claim to be able to operate as 'fighting aeroplanes' like the FE2, Strutter and of course Bristol F2B. Also primarily to RFC campaigns, though I don't think German ones should be much different - for these types of aircraft, the 'bog standard' 2-seaters like the DFW.

1. Working aeroplanes should - nearly always - fly art obs, recce and 'contact patrol' missions ALONE. Not now, as a complete B Flight and sometimes with A Flight along for the ride. And yes, I do know of exceptions, I have read a lot of the relevant material. One exception might might be a recce mission to a dangerous target, which might get escorted by other squadron aircraft. Bombing missions should be the only ones that working aeroplanes routinely fly in flight or squadron strength.

2. Working aeroplanes should not be given fighter/scout-like 'patrol' missions - I just got a 'line patrol' one, at 5-6000 feet, as my first in a 6 Sqn campaign starting May 1915. I'm excluding here 'contact patrols' which were flown by single aircraft at low level to observe and report the positions of attacking troops during an offensive.

3. No escorts. The RFC relied on a schedule of line and distant 'offensive' patrols to cover the operations of its working aeroplanes. There should be plenty of these in the air, over and east of the lines, at all times when flying operations were being undertaken, such that they can at least sometimes disrupt enemies stalking working aeroplanes, or come to their rescue if attacked. I'm not suggesting they should be omnipresent of course, just more present. An escort might be given to a bombing mission, but not the others.

4. If RFC squadrons flying available WoFF types are insufficient to mount and maintain realistic patrol coverage, then steps need to be taken to deliver that, including if necessary filling gaps left in the ORBAT with an equivalent type. Not ideal but arguably less unrealistic operationally than leaving an gap which affects a realistic level of patrols. If system resources are a constraint, then they should be found from elsewhere. And this, at something short of the highest Workshop settings - it should be the norm, available at anything but the lowest setting.

5. More Archie/Flak! Every flight or aircraft operating over or near the lines, or near protected targets, should, for a high proportion of its time, there be fired upon by AA guns, producing bursts visible to other aircraft within several miles, and identifiable by colour (black for German, grey for Allied). FE/FE2 is the Gold Standard here. I may look into a version of my Flakmod for OFF. If the current paucity of AA bursts is due to a paucity of targets, then that needs increased too - see 4.

I expect a mission editor could perhaps deal with one or two of these but in my experience, all need dealt with for these sort of squadrons. i grant the sim can reasonably be oriented to flying as a fighter pilot, doubtless the most popular role, but even there, some of these points would make for a more realistic experience.

Great post Lima, the changes you speak off would be a brilliant addition to the sim imo.

I'd love it if Arty Units where in game coupled with a find art positions and spot for Arty missions. Then 2 seater campaigns would be worth playing.

Agree wholeheartedly 33Lima. Have also gotten the two-seater campaign bug and the points you mention drive me crazy.

The only point I would disagree with is 1, but only for the period of late 1915, early 1916. The Fokker E has such an impact that for a while recon/artie spotting flights were flown in groups of up to 4-6 aircraft (from the same Squadon) as a form of mutual protection. But other than that you're spot on.

Interesting points!

I can imagine the system/technology allows a more historical bomber-campaign via the difference between "fighter" and "Recce/Bomber" during generation of a new pilot. I'm sure it's much work for 2 persons!!! IMHO it could be valuable, because WOFF would be the first WW1-Flightsim with a clear (historical) difference between these 2 kinds of campaigns, so a stand-alone-feature.

Greetings

Also, bless you all for doing 2 seater campaigns with really nothing to do! It would be nice if they added a camera as a bombsight view and you could click pictures when certain features were in frame and then you could get "kills" if you were on target that would aid in promotion...

I agree that two-seater Art.Obs., Recon. and Contact Patrols are something of an afterthought in WOFF and always have been (and in every other combat flight sim. as well). I think there are things that you can do to make the rather generic 2-seater missions more interesting and differentiated for the Player's flight (there are several 'mission mods' that will help here, and a very good mission editor mod), and Workshop settings that can be used to enhance the experience (and survivability) by toning down the tempo of operations, the number of other flights in the air, etc.

It would be nice if more effort could be directed to this area, though I suspect that as most players prefer the high adrenaline excitement of being a fighter pilot in crowded skies where two-seaters are just targets, then we are probably too niche a market. Given the choice of more (different) fighters to fly or a more nuanced and interesting 2-seater campaign, then I think the former will win out every time.

In my experience the OBT developers have always been very supportive of modders who can add something to the game - I have always found them to be very receptive to suggestions and helpful - but I guess there is a finite limit to the way in which they can change the basic game mechanics to support more in this area without very time consuming (expensive) effort on their part, for just a small minority of players, when focussing attention in other areas can bring in new players and maintain the viability of the whole project.

That being so, I think it is probably up to us to make the mods to enhance this experience. If they are popular, the developers might then incorporate them into the basic game, as they have done before for other mods.

B.

Hallo @Bletchley,

I haven't tested your both mods for bomber-campaign so far. Is it possible, that they are a step to this direction?

Greetings!

Hello Becker! I would say so, yes, although they require some imaginative effort on the part of the player. I think my Mission mod is the only one so far that has been adapted for and tested with BH&HII, although there are other similar mods for previous versions of WOFF. There is a Workshop setting that switches them 'On' and 'Off' once the folders containing the additional files have been added to the game directory. The additional files will not break the game, as it will revert automatically to the base game if it encounters any error. The missions can be switched on or off in Workshop (without having to restart a career), and if you do not like them they can just be deleted. The OBD developers made some changes to the base game to let them work as they do, most obviously by adding the Workshop switch, which I think illustrates the point that I made in my previous post. Mission mods (mine and others) can be downloaded from Sandbagger's mod site. Anybody who downloads my mod is free to make whatever changes they like to them, to change them to taste (they are just text files, and can be changed by a simple text editor) and can then upload or share their version. They contain fighter missions as well, but the recon/bomber missions are the ones that have been most changed.

B.

Hallo @Bletchley,

I did read the readme's of both mods. So I have a few questions now:
A: Can you explain a little bit more concret the changes due to the mods please (as a little help maybe a similar description to the 4 points you can read in the first posting here)? > What is the consequence for the flight / the missions?
B: What is the differerence between the 2 mods "Defence Mission Typs" and "Mission Types"?
C: Can I install only one mod or must I install both (yes? Which sequence?)?

Sorry for my (stupid) questions and Thanks for answer!!

Greetings!

Hi Becker - no, they are not stupid questions.

If you use the 'Search function of this forum, using keywords 'Bletchleys mission mods' you should find previous posts that will help to explain the function of the mods, but this is a recap.

They will fly alone, when this would be correct, if you follow the instructions on limiting fuel to the rest of the Flight.

They are not given scout missions, other than early war when there was no distinction in function.

Points 3 and 4 are beyond my control, as they are hard-coded.

The main mission mod:

1. tweaks the existing mission set to give some more missions, particularly for reconnaissance/bomber units, to give greater historical variety.

2. introduces some 'weighting' to a career, making some missions more likely to be assigned than others, depending on the year and the front (quiet or active, interchangeable as the war progresses). So, for example, one of the new missions introduced for two-seater units is a spy dropping mission which is assigned only on quiet fronts and even then very rarely (1 in 20 chance). In the stock mission set, by contrast, there is an equal chance of getting every type of mission available from a generally much smaller set of missions that are available to that unit.

3. background given in briefings that are generally lengthier and more varied, including additional instructions that you can follow or ignore as you wish, and the mission title that will appear as the main entry in your log book is in the language of that unit (English, German, French) and has been taken, in most cases, from actual mission names used historically instead of the rather generic ones in English that is given to the stock missions

The defence mission mod just changes the briefing and title of the standard defence missions so that they fit in with the language and briefing style of the main mission set.

It is easier to experience than to describe - if you try them, you will understand. You can use them both together or separately.

B.

Have to concede that I was being a bit black and white there, Pips! The first volume on RFC communiques says that there was an order in Jan 1916, due to losses, that recce flights should be escorted ('accompanied' would be a better word) by 'at least three other aircraft' from the same sqn as you say. The communiques which follow record instances of no escorts, one other aircraft and more than one. How long that lasted I don't know but I do know that the formation of six RE8s from 59 Sqn wiped out by Jasta 11 on 13 April were said to be on a photo recce mission.

Ralph Barker (who doesn't always get the details right, eg saying that the BEs that went to France were powered by French ROTARY engines) says that on one day during the month of April 1917, as well as 48 scouts, there were 24 2-seaters of various types flying line patrols in an effort to keep German aircraft from intervening in the big push. And there are occasional refs to recce machines having an escort of scouts provided by a different squadron. So 'never say never'!

I haven't got the multimod working (said to be for PE or UE IIRC, so maybe problematic with BH&H II; it just won't open tho I have Java) to get a more rapid rate of AA fire (maybe my ancient OFF flakmod would work). I gave up for now on the Mission Editor as (for my BE campaign) I spent ages eliminating A Flight and reducing my B flight to one machine, only to mess up everything trying to shift waypoints from behind our lines to over the lines and causing the mission to crash to game.

So for now, what I'm doing is:

1. If I get a patrol behind my own lines, I use BuckeyeBob's suggestion to hit 'Back' instead of 'Go to Field'; this scrubs the mission until I get one that isn't behind our lines; then
2. I use VonS's suggestion in the Loadout screen to reduce the fuel load of all but one or two aircraft in my flight to 5%, so they go back to base and land soon after taking off (the 'Land here' order might also work, haven't tried it but the fuel reduction does work); and
3. In my head, re-labeling any odd mission orders eg a patrol over the lines I treat as photo recce, art obs or low-level contact patrol; and one further to the east, as a recce (or a bombing job, after using Loadout to grab some Cooper bombs).

Not ideal but feels a whole lot more real than leaving as is, and it worked ok on my latest mission. The flak was still hopelessly sparse, even at the highest setting..."Archibald, certainly not!"...



...and much too quiet. I may look at whether my flakmod can work (much more bursts, but without much more lethality) and locating and increasing the noise of the burst sound. ATM, it seems indistinguishable from ground arty fire - even if not attenuated with distance, I want it to make me jump in my seat as well as seeing many more bursts.

This way I hope to get much more joy with WoFF's excellent 'working aeroplanes'...



...tho I may end up also needing something to reduce AI MG fire to something below the current lowest setting without neutering scout campaigns, if surviveability drops to hopeless levels.

33lima,

I have occasionally run across the problem with the Multimod not opening. I have usually found that updating to the latest version of Java does the trick. If that doesn't work, you can always ask Jara. He is always willing to help anyone having problems with his mods. He may even have some advice about using the Mission Editor!

BTW, you can control the maximum range of machine gun AA fire with the Multimod, as well.

Thanks BuckeyeBob! I'm also just downloading Bletchley's Mission mods which I see are avail for BH&H II and could also help here.

Cross-post.


Yes, definitely!

One more thing. If I'm not mistaken (which happens more than I would like to admit), the Be2 during 1915-1916 in WOFF is designated a scout, not as recce/obs. Perhaps that is the source of some of your problems?

If so, you may need to edit the mission types for British scouts to eliminate any Patrol Behind Friendly Lines or Intercept missions. Don't forget to make a backup first!

Wow! BE as an early war scout? That needs fixed at source! Granted aircraft were multi-purpose originally but recce was always the primary mission.

It may just be a few select squadrons, not the whole bunch!

Yes that'a gap worth filling. ATM the best I can do is fly a figure of eigth back and forth across the lines if I see atry on the Hun side and pretend I'm directing it.

A possible kludge would be to a allow a loadout (for suitable types) of a lot of invisible bombs (which could be described as 'Field [or heavy] artillery battery salvo') for an art obs mission. Which you could aim and drop in a dozen or so salvoes of six or so at a time, when over a suitable target.

Here's a somewhat silly bare-bones attempt to simulate a photo-recon mission:

1) fly to the area of the assigned mission, select a "target" to photograph, and take a screenshot of the "target" using the screenshot key on the keyboard.

2) return to a predetermined point back over friendly lines.

3) fly back to the area where the target you photographed is located. Locate the target again and take a second pic of the target, matching as closely as possible the first pic you took earlier.

4) return to base. Now, compare the two pics and put yourself in the position of the Intelligence officer who would review such recon evidence. Are they a close match (maybe you can see 80% of the first pic in the second)? If so, success! Of course, if you are chased off by the enemy or the target is obscured by clouds or fog so you can't complete both pics, the mission is deemed a failure.

Taking two photographs of the same target at least puts a little more challenge into the mission!