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#4586007 - 11/27/21 04:58 AM Is it possible to install WOFF twice on the same device? (to test mods)  
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AlbrechtKaseltzer Offline
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Pretty much what the title says - I've been having issues with some of the more well-known mods, and I want a way to be able to test out the mods without sacrificing my campaign pilots.

I tried installing to an external drive and that...didn't work. explode

#4586009 - 11/27/21 06:18 AM Re: Is it possible to install WOFF twice on the same device? (to test mods) [Re: AlbrechtKaseltzer]  
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BuckeyeBob Offline
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AK,

I don't know about separate installs, but can't you "enlist" a test pilot, used only for mod testing? If you set him to pilot never dies, you should be good to go. Just remember to turn that off when flying one of your "real" pilots. That's what I do when testing my mods.


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4586010 - 11/27/21 06:20 AM Re: Is it possible to install WOFF twice on the same device? (to test mods) [Re: AlbrechtKaseltzer]  
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Robert_Wiggins Offline
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To do this you really need to have a dual boot system on a partitionef drive or a multi boot system with multiple OS drives, in my opinion otherwise it will not work. I personally have a multi boot system with OS installed on two SSD drives.

Best Regards.


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#4586011 - 11/27/21 07:15 AM Re: Is it possible to install WOFF twice on the same device? (to test mods) [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
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AlbrechtKaseltzer Offline
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Originally Posted by BuckeyeBob
AK,

I don't know about separate installs, but can't you "enlist" a test pilot, used only for mod testing? If you set him to pilot never dies, you should be good to go. Just remember to turn that off when flying one of your "real" pilots. That's what I do when testing my mods.

The problem I'm having is that there are certain mods that, once installed/activated, triggered a certain bug in the game that wouldn't go away even after the mod was uninstalled (i.e. post-mod, the SPAD 13 & the Fokker E.IV set their own engines on fire any time I pull the trigger). So even if I designate a mod pilot, all the other pilots still get saddled with the bug. Still generally a good idea though, and tbh I'd go ahead and do this if the mod bug didn't stick around after the uninstall.

Originally Posted by Robert_Wiggins
To do this you really need to have a dual boot system on a partitionef drive or a multi boot system with multiple OS drives, in my opinion otherwise it will not work. I personally have a multi boot system with OS installed on two SSD drives.

Best Regards.

Thanks for the info! I don't know what most of that means, which tells me that it's probably best for me not to mess around with this too much.

#4586012 - 11/27/21 07:25 AM Re: Is it possible to install WOFF twice on the same device? (to test mods) [Re: AlbrechtKaseltzer]  
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JJJ65 Offline
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Can you contact mod author(s) to check and solve your issue?

#4586015 - 11/27/21 08:32 AM Re: Is it possible to install WOFF twice on the same device? (to test mods) [Re: AlbrechtKaseltzer]  
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VonS Offline
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I doubt that it is possible to have two identical versions of BH&H2 installed on the same device. As RJW indicated, dual-booting would be the way to go with that or to have a partitioned/sectored hard drive. I have WOFF 4.18 and BH&H2 living side-by-side on the same SSD, but, technically, they are not the same WOFF. Also possible is that I am just lucky with such a setup because my WOFF registry key (in the Windows registry) points to WOFF 5.03, which I had installed previously and simply removed (deleted its folders manually) - without formally uninstalling it.

I then moved over my WOFF 4.18 install (from the Mac Mini to the Mac Pro), as well as my BH&H2 install (that was bottled in WINE on the Mac Mini, then extracted from WINE and sent over to the Mac Pro too). Both versions now live happily with the PE-era registry key on the Mac Pro. But, unless you want also to run older WOFF and BH&H2 - it's too much hassle to maintain such a setup since you have to activate/deactivate individual folders if you want to go from one version to another - and to make sure that you have a version each of the MultiMod, MissionEd, PilotLog Editor, etc., for each era of WOFF.

(The good thing is that I usually test mods. first in WOFF 4.18, then if nothing breaks I test in BH&H2, and tweak further - so there is a place for "multi-WOFFing" but, for the most part, I would not recommend such a setup unless you enjoy the rabbit hole of tweaking and modding.)

Cheers all,
Von S smile2


~ For my various FM/AI/FPS/DM Mods. for First Eagles 2, WoFF, RoF & WoTR, and tips for FlightGear, recommended is to check over my CombatAce profile (https://combatace.com/profile/86760-vons/) and to click on the "About Me" tab while there. ~
#4586026 - 11/27/21 02:46 PM Re: Is it possible to install WOFF twice on the same device? (to test mods) [Re: AlbrechtKaseltzer]  
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Hallo @AlbrechtK,

hmm, what's the use of a "second Test-WOFF"? Yes, you can test a mod and other things and when there is a irreparable mistake suddenly you must make a new install of your TEST-WOFF; so it's the same work as with one WOFF in my eyes (and you can save the pilot-data).
IMHO if you suppose a mod-bug I would do it on this way (if you haven't done it so far):

In relation to your SPAD-Problem: Which mod in your mod-list does change the DM, the fire-rating, the gun-jamming, the own-bullet-hits, etc? Only one? Then fly without it but with a clean WOFF. No mistake any longer? Then you have it (and contact the modder).

In a second step, if you are not sure, make a test-flight with a clean WOFF and notice the result.
Then leave WOFF and activate only one of your mods. Start WOFF, make your test-flight. Can you notice the mistake you have seen before? Yes, then DON'T install WOFF new but contact the modder!! If there is a mistake in the mod he will repair it with a new version you can activate. All should be okay after it.
If you don't see the mistake after the first mod, leave WOFF again, deactivate the mod and activate the next one (always only one!) and so on ... untill you can notice the mistake.
If there is no mistake after testing all mods then a mod-combination could be possible theoretically, but only if one mod overwrites the files from a previous one. This you can see, because JSGME asks you about it.

No results? Then check your settings, notice every little step, every litte "click" you do normally before you fly.


Very likely you have already done what I have written. Normally you should find the mistake on that way and then you have found the source of error (that's always the best solution).

I hope it was a little help!

Greetings!


.

#4586034 - 11/27/21 06:38 PM Re: Is it possible to install WOFF twice on the same device? (to test mods) [Re: Becker01]  
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AlbrechtKaseltzer Offline
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Originally Posted by JJJ65
Can you contact mod author(s) to check and solve your issue?

The problem is, I'm not sure which mod is the culprit. I went several months of mod-free WOFF without any SPADs setting their own engines on fire -> I installed the mods -> SPADs set their own engines on fire! I re-installed, did one mod at a time, tested, everything seemed fine, but then after a couple days the SPADs started setting their own engines on fire again. Did another re-install, mod-free, and after much longer the SPADs are still fine.

i.e. the bug doesn't show up right away, but after a couple days. So I don't think it's inherent to the mod, but something about how my system reacts to the mod - might have something to do with system permissions, I don't know. But because of the time delay, it's very very hard to single out where the bug is coming from.

Originally Posted by Becker01
Hallo @AlbrechtK,

hmm, what's the use of a "second Test-WOFF"? Yes, you can test a mod and other things and when there is a irreparable mistake suddenly you must make a new install of your TEST-WOFF; so it's the same work as with one WOFF in my eyes (and you can save the pilot-data).

Okay, if I knew how to save pilot data to use with the next install, that would also solve the same problem. I'm all ears (or, I guess, eyes)!

Quote
IMHO if you suppose a mod-bug I would do it on this way (if you haven't done it so far):

In relation to your SPAD-Problem: Which mod in your mod-list does change the DM, the fire-rating, the gun-jamming, the own-bullet-hits, etc? Only one? Then fly without it but with a clean WOFF. No mistake any longer? Then you have it (and contact the modder).

In a second step, if you are not sure, make a test-flight with a clean WOFF and notice the result.
Then leave WOFF and activate only one of your mods. Start WOFF, make your test-flight. Can you notice the mistake you have seen before? Yes, then DON'T install WOFF new but contact the modder!! If there is a mistake in the mod he will repair it with a new version you can activate. All should be okay after it.
If you don't see the mistake after the first mod, leave WOFF again, deactivate the mod and activate the next one (always only one!) and so on ... untill you can notice the mistake.
If there is no mistake after testing all mods then a mod-combination could be possible theoretically, but only if one mod overwrites the files from a previous one. This you can see, because JSGME asks you about it.


The problem is two-fold:
#1 - The bug doesn't hit right away, but usually a day or two later. (When I ran a clean WOFF, in contrast, I can go months/weeks on end and this bug never happens).

As you can imagine, this makes diagnostics very difficult. All I've been able to figure out is "don't mod."

#2 - When the bug does hit, I can get rid of all the mods but the bug won't go away until I do a new, mod-free install. So I wind up losing all my pilots (hence why saving the pilot data seems like a very very very good idea).

I also don't know that it's an issue inherent to the mod. The mods I've used have been heavily vetted and used by a great number of users, which tells me that the issue is something particular to my system.

I had something similar when I first installed WOFF several months ago, where I had a system-particular error: because of the permissions associated with such-and-such folders, the AI autopilot didn't have access to its own landing procedures, so during training, my pilot's trainer would crash their own Aviatik into the airfield. However, over a day or so, I fiddled around and was able to solve that problem.

So basically, if I'm going to experiment with the mods again, I'd like to be able to do so in a way that allows me to check how the system "behaves" with those mods over time, without losing my pilots.

#4586035 - 11/27/21 07:12 PM Re: Is it possible to install WOFF twice on the same device? (to test mods) [Re: AlbrechtKaseltzer]  
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VonS Offline
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To save all of your pilots, once you have a perfectly fine, unmodded version of BH&H2 installed, copy the following folder over to a safe place (but set up some pilots within unmodded/freshly installed BH&H2 before copying the folder somewhere else).

Folder in question, with the full directory path:

OBDSoftware\WOFF\OBDWW1 Over Flanders Fields\campaigns\CampaignData\Pilots

Once you've made a copy of that folder, with your fresh pilots from an unmodded BH&H2 install, you will be able to copy back/replace the same folder if something goes awry with your pilots in a modded (and then de-modded) BH&H2. Ideally, this will no longer require that you re-install BH&H2 every time something breaks, but simply un-mod the whole thing via JSGME, copy back the healthy pilots folder, and you should be up and running again.

Cheers and good luck with the mod. testing,
Von S smile2

P.S. For what it's worth, I have about a couple dozen mods. loaded in my BH&H2 and it is stable - it's possible that the mod. loading order is creating the oddities for you. Recommended is to install the really big mods. first, such as the auto-consolidated and addon airfields mods. (about three or four packs of those), by RJW and company. Then load smaller mods. after that, such as tracer mods., my enhancement packages, FM mods., etc., and make sure to replace any files in previous mods., if JSGME asks to replace files in mods. loaded earlier on. When you are offloading mods. in JSGME, recommended is to offload mods. one-by-one, starting from the bottom of the mod. loaded list, and working your way to the top. Do not click on the offload "all mods. at once" option - I did that a couple of times in my RoF install and it led to all sorts of broken dependencies among the mods., about as bad as broken dependencies in various Linux distros when installing/removing things too quickly via package managers and whatnot.

Last edited by VonS; 11/27/21 07:26 PM. Reason: Edited post.

~ For my various FM/AI/FPS/DM Mods. for First Eagles 2, WoFF, RoF & WoTR, and tips for FlightGear, recommended is to check over my CombatAce profile (https://combatace.com/profile/86760-vons/) and to click on the "About Me" tab while there. ~
#4586036 - 11/27/21 07:44 PM Re: Is it possible to install WOFF twice on the same device? (to test mods) [Re: AlbrechtKaseltzer]  
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@AlbrechtK,

okay with the time-delay it is more difficult.
Step 1: The clean WOFF-installation is okay.
Step 2: If I understand you correctly you activate all your mods at once, right? If so, change this procedere and activate only one of your mods and fly with it a few days (and then the steps I have written above: leave WOFF, deactivate the Mod, if the result is okay and activate the next one, start WOFF and fly your days, and so on with every single mod you have in use normally). If your system has a problem with one mod you must find out which one it is. So you must test one after an other without mod-combinations. If the single-mod-tests have no results you must test mod-combinations. I don't know an other way at the moment.


And @VonS has written the way to save your pilot-data.


Greetings!
P.S.: After an uninstallation of WOFF via "WOFF ToolBox" check the registry with CCleaner and restart your system!

Last edited by Becker01; 11/27/21 07:52 PM.
#4586039 - 11/27/21 08:20 PM Re: Is it possible to install WOFF twice on the same device? (to test mods) [Re: VonS]  
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AlbrechtKaseltzer Offline
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Originally Posted by VonS
To save all of your pilots, once you have a perfectly fine, unmodded version of BH&H2 installed, copy the following folder over to a safe place (but set up some pilots within unmodded/freshly installed BH&H2 before copying the folder somewhere else).

Folder in question, with the full directory path:

OBDSoftware\WOFF\OBDWW1 Over Flanders Fields\campaigns\CampaignData\Pilots


Thank you! This will be my way going forward.

Quote
Once you've made a copy of that folder, with your fresh pilots from an unmodded BH&H2 install, you will be able to copy back/replace the same folder if something goes awry with your pilots in a modded (and then de-modded) BH&H2. Ideally, this will no longer require that you re-install BH&H2 every time something breaks, but simply un-mod the whole thing via JSGME, copy back the healthy pilots folder, and you should be up and running again.


And there's the rub - I've tried de-modding on JSGME one-by-one, and the SPAD suicide bug remains.

My best guess is that the mods cause the game to re-direct from some stock component (which is what it's supposed to do), but then for whatever reason, after de-modding, WOFF isn't going back to its stock component. It's probably due to some issue w/system permissions on my device.

It's like when I tried the FM mod for the first time: if I activated the Albatros D.III (Oef) mod, for instance, that would run fine. BUT, if I de-activated that mod on JSGME, the game wouldn't run because for some reason, WOFF would think it no longer had access to the stock Albatros D.III. That bug went away after I did an uninstall/reinstall, but this SPAD suicide bug persists.

Quote
P.S. For what it's worth, I have about a couple dozen mods. loaded in my BH&H2 and it is stable - it's possible that the mod. loading order is creating the oddities for you.


So I'm loading two mod packages: the "multi mod" & the FM mod. Based on how many people have used these mods without issue, I have 100% confidence in the design/execution/integrity of the mods themselves. This is almost certainly my system interfering in some way to prevent WOFF from re-associating with stock components.

Could be loading order, but overall, it's been very very difficult trying to narrow it down to any one factor just because the SPAD suicide bug doesn't hit until a day or two later. I've tried putting one mod into effect at a time, loading mods in different order, and everything seems to run fine - until about a day later when, despite me changing nothing new, the SPAD becomes totally unusable.

I wouldn't have even connected the issue to the mods except for the fact that I went months w/o SPAD suicides pre-mod and have gone weeks w/o SPAD suicides post-mod - yet twice I found SPADs rendered useless shortly after mod installation.

Bizarrely, this only happens to the SPAD XIII & the Fokker E.IV, and the second time around, I hadn't even loaded FM's for those aircraft - I uploaded the Fokker D.VIIF 230hp FM, and then a day later the SPAD & Fokker E.IV started shooting their own engines. Again, this doesn't happen when I do a clean, 100% stock WOFF install. This has me wondering if it's a chain of events sparked by installing the multi mod, and now that I know how to save my pilots, I can test out the multi mod over the course of a few days without risking losing my dear airmen.

Last edited by AlbrechtKaseltzer; 11/27/21 09:34 PM.
#4586041 - 11/27/21 10:21 PM Re: Is it possible to install WOFF twice on the same device? (to test mods) [Re: Becker01]  
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Originally Posted by Becker01

Step 2: If I understand you correctly you activate all your mods at once, right?


I'd been loading one mod at a time and testing it out for several flights, and then doing the same with different mod combos. But clearly "several flights" isn't enough testing.

Quote
If so, change this procedere and activate only one of your mods and fly with it a few days (and then the steps I have written above: leave WOFF, deactivate the Mod, if the result is okay and activate the next one, start WOFF and fly your days, and so on with every single mod you have in use normally). If your system has a problem with one mod you must find out which one it is. So you must test one after an other without mod-combinations. If the single-mod-tests have no results you must test mod-combinations. I don't know an other way at the moment.


And @VonS has written the way to save your pilot-data.


Greetings!
P.S.: After an uninstallation of WOFF via "WOFF ToolBox" check the registry with CCleaner and restart your system!


Thank you, this is definitely the way I gotta go with this. If the SPAD suicide bug takes time to kick in, then I must also take time.

Last edited by AlbrechtKaseltzer; 11/27/21 10:22 PM.
#4586042 - 11/27/21 10:26 PM Re: Is it possible to install WOFF twice on the same device? (to test mods) [Re: AlbrechtKaseltzer]  
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AlbrechtKaseltzer Offline
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BTW thank you all for the thoughtful, detailed responses. Given enough time, anybody can develop some caliber of expertise - but it takes a certain caliber of character for people to hear you out, figure out what you're trying to do, and provide a thorough response tailored to the situation. The WOFF community is exceptional and I appreciate the hell out of y'all for it.

#4586043 - 11/27/21 11:04 PM Re: Is it possible to install WOFF twice on the same device? (to test mods) [Re: AlbrechtKaseltzer]  
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Originally Posted by AlbrechtKaseltzer
The WOFF community is exceptional and I appreciate the hell out of y'all for it.


cheers

One thought that just popped into my head is that maybe the MultiMod is causing oddities if you are "loading it" as you write, via JSGME - JJJ's MultiMod is a Java applet that should be run separately, outside of JSGME (as far as I know, there is no JSGME-loading version of the MultiMod). The MultiMod can be placed anywhere on the same hard drive where you have a WOFF install, by the way - no need to place it in the installed WOFF directory.

Hopefully we'll be able to help you sort out your mod. oddities - particularly that flaming Spad thing - that one sounds strange.

Cheers,
Von S


~ For my various FM/AI/FPS/DM Mods. for First Eagles 2, WoFF, RoF & WoTR, and tips for FlightGear, recommended is to check over my CombatAce profile (https://combatace.com/profile/86760-vons/) and to click on the "About Me" tab while there. ~
#4586045 - 11/28/21 01:37 AM Re: Is it possible to install WOFF twice on the same device? (to test mods) [Re: VonS]  
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Originally Posted by VonS
Originally Posted by AlbrechtKaseltzer
The WOFF community is exceptional and I appreciate the hell out of y'all for it.


cheers

One thought that just popped into my head is that maybe the MultiMod is causing oddities if you are "loading it" as you write, via JSGME - JJJ's MultiMod is a Java applet that should be run separately, outside of JSGME (as far as I know, there is no JSGME-loading version of the MultiMod). The MultiMod can be placed anywhere on the same hard drive where you have a WOFF install, by the way - no need to place it in the installed WOFF directory.

That makes a LOT of sense. (And TBH, it sounds like the kind of thing that only I would think to do, hence the very odd & idiosyncratic results! pilot )

I'm going to start mod-testing by running the multi mod w/o JSGME and then I'll see how that goes!

Quote
Hopefully we'll be able to help you sort out your mod. oddities - particularly that flaming Spad thing - that one sounds strange.

I'm reminded of those pseudo-experiments some people have done where they'll grow a plant and then "think mean thoughts" at it and the plant grows up all disheveled...the mods must have picked up on my honest opinion of the SPAD scouts!

#4586046 - 11/28/21 02:00 AM Re: Is it possible to install WOFF twice on the same device? (to test mods) [Re: AlbrechtKaseltzer]  
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The "User Files Backup Utility" will backup all your pilots and other user files so you can restore everything if you have to re-install WOFF.

You can download it from here: Click to download

Please read the accompanying ReadMe file for instructions.

Best Regards


(System_Specs)
Case: Cooler Master Storm Trooper
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CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Seidon 240M Liquid CPU Cooler
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#4586051 - 11/28/21 05:04 AM Re: Is it possible to install WOFF twice on the same device? (to test mods) [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
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AlbrechtKaseltzer Offline
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Originally Posted by Robert_Wiggins
The "User Files Backup Utility" will backup all your pilots and other user files so you can restore everything if you have to re-install WOFF.

You can download it from here: Click to download

Please read the accompanying ReadMe file for instructions.

Best Regards

I'm checking this out - looks really helpful.

I don't have a "Games" folder on my computer, and I have WOFF stored in the default location that the install program selected automatically: C:\OBDSoftware\OBDWW1 Over Flanders Fields

Do I have to move WOFF to a different file path? And if so, does this mean I would have to uninstall/reinstall? Or can I just drop the game into a new folder?

Last edited by AlbrechtKaseltzer; 11/28/21 05:07 AM.
#4586054 - 11/28/21 11:04 AM Re: Is it possible to install WOFF twice on the same device? (to test mods) [Re: AlbrechtKaseltzer]  
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For "User Files Backup Utility" use an installation with a path you can find in the readme (no copy!). In your special case maybe you should use both, the UFBU and the manuel way to safe the pilot-data, see above. So you are sure.

As @VonS has written, don't use Multimod via jsgme (see the readme!).
Make your test-series with the single- mods in your jsgme-mod-list, no combinations, also no comb. with mods outside from jsgme. Test every mod in your mod-list and outside (f.e. multimod) alone and see the results.
That is your first test-series!

Greetings!

PS.: And read the Mod-Readme's!!

Last edited by Becker01; 11/28/21 12:28 PM.
#4586060 - 11/28/21 01:54 PM Re: Is it possible to install WOFF twice on the same device? (to test mods) [Re: AlbrechtKaseltzer]  
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Robert_Wiggins Offline
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Albrechtkaseltzer

The User Backup Utility will find your WOFF install so you don't need to move it. The program parses the install locatuon from the registry entry.

And yes, read the ReadMe instryction file as it explains how the program works.
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#4586075 - 11/28/21 11:04 PM Re: Is it possible to install WOFF twice on the same device? (to test mods) [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
Joined: May 2021
Posts: 91
AlbrechtKaseltzer Offline
Junior Member
AlbrechtKaseltzer  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: May 2021
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by Robert_Wiggins
Albrechtkaseltzer

The User Backup Utility will find your WOFF install so you don't need to move it. The program parses the install locatuon from the registry entry.


That's the thing: the utility isn't finding the WOFF install. The file path is what the installation program set up by default (C:\OBDSoftware\OBDWW1 Over Flanders Fields - which I think the Read Me means by "the root of your hard drive" but that's just a guess tbh).

When typing "c" into the Utility and hitting "Enter," though, what comes up is a notification that WOFF isn't installed on that drive.

So if I understand correctly, based on the discussion here, I don't need to move the WOFF install from its current file path. However, is there a specific file path where the User Files Backup Program utility needs to be located? I don't see this addressed in the read-me, and I've tried placing the utility in a few different locations to no avail.

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