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#4583790 - 10/28/21 11:41 AM Re: Alec Baldwin Rust movie incident [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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What's for me rather fuzzy is what parts of all the gun handling are actually legally covered, or contractual, or just "best practice" or some such.
What is covered by law, I mean beyond the part about not pointing and shooting (live) guns at people.
Contractual could be the gun handling at the film set - I doubt that there are any specific laws covering (most) of that stuff, but there are contracts signed who's responsible for what. Like separating of weapons used for some live fire excercise from weapons used for filming, and separating ammo.
Or even basic rules you would have on a proper shooting range, like immediately after a shooting excercise, before leaving the shooting position you clear the weapon and ensure it is empty (magazine out, chamber clear, or drum empty on a revolver) before you even turn around and point the weapon anywhere other that is not down the firing range.

There seem to be so many cases of violations of good practice or common sense in gun handling, but which parts of those are actually in violation of what kinds of laws/regulations that actually can be charged against someone?!

I guess the contractual part to be rather difficult to figure out for us, as it would be part of the contracts of the production with the employees/actors/... Except if it was supposed to followed some standard contracts.

Last edited by WhoCares; 10/28/21 11:56 AM.
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#4583791 - 10/28/21 11:50 AM Re: Alec Baldwin Rust movie incident [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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Then again, this could very well be a percentages thing where you will never have 100% safety. The incident with Brandon Lee in "The Crow" happened in 1993 and I cannot think of another Hollywood film where a death resulted from a firearm between that and "Rust". How many films have been made in those 28 years? At least a couple thousand.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4583793 - 10/28/21 12:14 PM Re: Alec Baldwin Rust movie incident [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Then again, this could very well be a percentages thing where you will never have 100% safety. The incident with Brandon Lee in "The Crow" happened in 1993 and I cannot think of another Hollywood film where a death resulted from a firearm between that and "Rust". How many films have been made in those 28 years? At least a couple thousand.

Often I would be tempted to agree with such judgement, but in this case there seems to have gone so many things wrong - it seems to me more like negligence, maybe exactly for the same reason you gave, that nothing has happened for such a long time...

But I am sure for ongoing and future productions this incident will lead to everybody involved to pay so much more attention.
Especially the actors may want to get some extra gun handling training to actually qualify them to evaluate the weapon that is handed to them - I mean it's in their own interest, in the end they are the ones doing the pointing and shooting, and nobody wants to end in Baldwins position...



Last edited by WhoCares; 10/28/21 12:25 PM.
#4583795 - 10/28/21 12:23 PM Re: Alec Baldwin Rust movie incident [Re: WhoCares]  
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Originally Posted by WhoCares


But I am sure for ongoing and future productions this incident will lead to everybody involved to pay so much more attention, especially the actors may want to get some extra gun handling training to actually qualify them to evaluate the weapon that is handed to them - I mean it's in their own interest, in the end they are the ones doing the pointing and shooting, and nobody wants to end in Baldwins position...



Oh yes, this will absolutely be the case.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4583796 - 10/28/21 12:50 PM Re: Alec Baldwin Rust movie incident [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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You guys have a lot more faith in people than I do, expecting this incident, this cascade of errors, of unprofessionalism, of thinking everything is someone else's responsibility, will lead to a different mindset among the people who make films. Sure, at first, there will be a big show about it, with signage saying things like "all weapons checked here, no exceptions"

Instead, I think you'll see the guns further stigmatized, blamed and feared, leading to even less practical knowledge about them, and increasing the chances of a repeat.

This isn't going to cause moviemakers and others on set to want to get hands on and learn, but to distance themselves from the evil guns that killed Halyna.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4583804 - 10/28/21 02:58 PM Re: Alec Baldwin Rust movie incident [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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There is too much money and political hay to be made for Hollywood to turn away from making movies that have firearms, even ones where firearms are pointed at the cameras.

Will there be some fools who simply take someone else's word for the gun being "cold"? I suspect so. But I also suspect there will be camera operators / cinematographers / directors who see the wisdom of being involved with the weapons check right before a scene is shot.

That 28 year period of no fatalities didn't just happen by pure luck. There clearly were some standardized practices in the business that worked well enough when they were adhered to.

Numerous reports / opinions appear to be coalescing around failures by multiple people involved in the production of the Rust movie.

In the Human Performance Improvement field, the Swiss Cheese model is often referred to:
[Linked Image]

"Accident" isn't really the best term to use there. "Adverse event" would be more accurate.

It appears there were at least 3 people who could have been the layer whose hole didn't line up to allow the hazard to get through. You can also think of rules/practices such as 'No real ammunition allowed on site' as additional layers that could/should have served to block adverse events occurring.

It's been widely reported that Rust was a low budget project. Apparently, corners were cut, etc.

[Linked Image]

28 years of Hollywood productions without a fatal shooting would seem to indicate that the industry has some effective practices in place. This movie appears to have dropped some layers of protection.

#4583806 - 10/28/21 03:14 PM Re: Alec Baldwin Rust movie incident [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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I expect that they will clamp down with the wrong solutions.


Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
#4583808 - 10/28/21 03:26 PM Re: Alec Baldwin Rust movie incident [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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I suspect that it will be "spun" into a cautionary tale of how bad guns are. Something like a ban on single action revolvers. They are far too dangerous. biggrin

Last edited by LB4LB; 10/28/21 03:47 PM.
#4583833 - 10/28/21 07:55 PM Re: Alec Baldwin Rust movie incident [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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WhoCares : I also would like to know know the meaning of Contractual obligations on a film set and laws concerning Gun safety. Great Question.

2 more Tid Bits : 3 shells were seen in the Gun Who, what, when, and why ?
The Sheriff stated that there was complacency on the Set ( What does that Mean ? }

A question that I have is can they let Baldwin Walk ? { No Crime committed } Hes a Star, Money, Political connections, Can generate money coming into New Mexico .


Cyberkut: MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM, Cheese.

Last edited by carrick58; 10/28/21 07:58 PM.
#4583840 - 10/28/21 09:55 PM Re: Alec Baldwin Rust movie incident [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Originally Posted by oldgrognard
I expect that they will clamp down with the wrong solutions.

Guaranteed!


~Bill

In my defense, I was left unsupervised...
#4583841 - 10/28/21 10:05 PM Re: Alec Baldwin Rust movie incident [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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In other Hollywood news:

Stormtrooper accidentally discharges 238 live laser shots on the set of "The Mandalorian" ; thankfully no one hurt.


~Bill

In my defense, I was left unsupervised...
#4583842 - 10/28/21 10:13 PM Re: Alec Baldwin Rust movie incident [Re: Bill_Grant]  
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Originally Posted by Bill_Grant
In other Hollywood news:

Stormtrooper accidentally discharges 238 live laser shots on the set of "The Mandalorian" ; thankfully no one hurt.


[Linked Image]

#4583899 - 10/29/21 04:39 PM Re: Alec Baldwin Rust movie incident [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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I wanted follow up on this story,but I seem to circle back to the last Sheriff statement. " Her pockets were searched for bullets " Cant get the image out of my head.

Attached Files imagesAromorer I.jpgimagesReed.jpg
#4583928 - 10/29/21 08:15 PM Re: Alec Baldwin Rust movie incident [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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Read this on another discussion board and thought it had some good info.

————————

But there is also another dimension to this tragedy. Industry (union) standards require that whenever a scene is shot that is meant to simulate a view from in front of the shooter, such that the muzzle of the gun is pointed at the camera, a remote camera with no person behind it should be used. Even YouTubers that make home-brew firearms videos know this. But the police search warrant affidavit shows that this set was using only a single, manned camera, which Baldwin pointed the gun at to achieve an effect.

As the producer, he made the conscious decision to make this movie "on the cheap", to include substandard housing and pay for his crew, use of a single camera, and hiring a new and inexperienced "armorer" with no observable qualifications for the job. All of these errors stacked up to produce one tragic death and another person wounded.


Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
#4583935 - 10/29/21 10:19 PM Re: Alec Baldwin Rust movie incident [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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I agree,

Another point is that the film was to be shot in New Mexico which according to Web sites has no Movie Safety ( using guns ) requirements. ( Other states do have Gun/ pyrotechnics requirements/ Laws ) A decision made by the Production Company ( Mr Baldwin's ) However, It does have laws regarding the loss of life even if accidental. Referred to as Involuntary Manslaughter. and other lesser chargers. Just my 2 Cents, The Actor seems to have contributed more Bad decisions, to the Tragedy than the Assistant Director ( Who lawyer-ed up ) and the Armorer put together.

#4583942 - 10/29/21 11:58 PM Re: Alec Baldwin Rust movie incident [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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Rule zero for working on set with Alec Baldwin. Check the shooting schedule, and make sure your name/title isn't on it.

11:00 scene high street.
12:00 lunch
13:00 rehearsal church interior
13:10 cinematographer and director.
13:11 close set.

#4583948 - 10/30/21 10:44 AM Re: Alec Baldwin Rust movie incident [Re: Lieste]  
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Originally Posted by Lieste
Rule zero for working on set with Alec Baldwin. Check the shooting schedule, and make sure your name/title isn't on it.

11:00 scene high street.
12:00 lunch
13:00 rehearsal church interior
13:10 cinematographer and director.
13:11 close set.


If you name is on the schedule, sign a life insurance :-)))


I speak many languages one of them is cesky
#4584008 - 10/30/21 08:59 PM Re: Alec Baldwin Rust movie incident [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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#4584042 - 10/31/21 10:20 AM Re: Alec Baldwin Rust movie incident [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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#4584372 - 11/04/21 01:54 AM Re: Alec Baldwin Rust movie incident [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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Reed's lawyer's are saying it was sabotage. Somebody put live rounds in with the dummy rds Ammo box while no one was attending it. Talk about Muddy Waters. However, it does seem to point out her Contractual Obligations did not include Ammo Never mind the Industry Safety
Standards called for by the Union. and just common sense.

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