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#4575538 - 07/27/21 05:20 AM 2 Seaters OP?  
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I saw this in Rise of Flight, too. In fact RoF is even worse than this since half of the time you couldn't even catch a two seater let alone take one out, and there you can blast away at one forever sometimes and not damage it. They told me I was hitting the fuel tank or the dead observer but I wasn't buying that TBH.

Anyway two seaters in both games are strong, fast, and have extremely accurate fire even at long range. It is suicide to go after a flight of them and not worth even going after a lone one if they are actively trying to defend against you. Yes, there is a narrow corridor behind and below them where you can tee off but again, you're not going to get to line yourself up in that corridor unless they're just running for home and for some reason choosing to ignore you.

I think there's something in both games which is missing regarding 2 seaters. I'm sure the flight characteristics are modelled well but most likely it is the gunnery. How quickly could those guns traverse, how accurate were those guns on the mounts they had, and how good were the observers really? Look at how all the different aces died - nearly all via ground fire or other fighters, not many by two seaters relative to the numbers they fought.

I've never read a single source which says that Aviatiks were anything remarkable over the Western Front in 1916 but when you play WoFF or RoF as an Allied pilot you treat them as the strongest enemy aircraft on the front, far worse than Eindeckers, and usually avoid them. Fighters wouldn't have avoided two seaters IRL - they hunted two seaters. If two seaters were more dangerous than fighters, then what was the point of fighters?

I'd be curious to know how the Boulton Paul Defiant and Wellington (which had heavy rear turret weaponry for its time) perform in the WW2 sim, both here and in whatever 777 created.

#4575541 - 07/27/21 06:54 AM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: One Post Wonder]  
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@OP, in terms of WOFF, if you are finding the two-seaters a bit too slippery, recommended is, in the WOFF in-sim menu, to set rear gunners to "less accurate." Also, in JJJ's fantastic MultiMod, I recommend a rear gunner accuracy value of 4, 4.5, or 5. This will give you more varied results and, while still challenging, should make for more workable situations (in terms of attacking two-seaters).

Cheers and happy two-seater hunting,
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#4575570 - 07/27/21 01:50 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: One Post Wonder]  
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.

OPW, here's a thread from quite some time ago on the subject: Two-seater attacks

The tactics described are still fairly sound in BHaH II, though I have noticed that B/R formations don't tend to hang together as long as they used to, so be on the look-out for that.

HTH. Also, new lads buy the drinks! cheers

Cheers,

Lou

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#4575587 - 07/27/21 04:02 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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Originally Posted by RAF_Louvert
.

OPW, here's a thread from quite some time ago on the subject: Two-seater attacks

The tactics described are still fairly sound in BHaH II, though I have noticed that B/R formations don't tend to hang together as long as they used to, so be on the look-out for that.

HTH. Also, new lads buy the drinks! cheers

Cheers,

Lou

.


Thanks, that was a useful thread and a good diagram. I'm not sure the frontal attack will work for me as I am playing early war. By the time you've gotten ahead of the formation and set yourself up in a Nieuport 11, they'll be back at their base. Much less doing that more than once!

I have noticed that after completing a raid, a 2 seater formation always looks ragged or disperses entirely and they are also more likely to just try and run for home and don't actively counteract you as much (I'm guessing because of fuel).

Still, I'm fresh off getting getting headshotted at 250m by a 2 seater. Maybe I'll turn down the gunnery a bit and see how that plays out.

#4575600 - 07/27/21 07:23 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: One Post Wonder]  
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This is kind of a tricky subject to navigate. We tend to know that most famous aces that died were killed in dogfights, collisions, aircraft failures or ground fire. Richtofen was hit that one time in the head by an observer. For most of the thousands of other pilots that died before they made a name for themselves, we don't know what happened to them because...well, they died before they could make a name for themselves... dizzy So determining how deadly they should be is a bit difficult. Some were obviously dangerous, like the Brisfit, and some were disliked by their crews, like the Quirk. I have a feeling that there were a lot of inconclusive encounters where both the scout and the two seater tested each other out before going their separate ways, neither able to strike a killing blow. I do think they tend to be a bit too accurate by default, unless I am just running into a lot of veteran level observers...check out this video, especially at the end where you can see the ranges I am getting hit at...


I think there could be a slight additional constraint imposed on firing cones for improvement, especially by skill level for observers. Also, do they run out of ammo ever? Do they have to reload? Can they fire when upside down? (I feel like I have seen this...) I wouldn't mind seeing them stop shooting at you when they are on fire, unless they are the most hardened of veterans! rofl

How to approach them? We obviously don't have the option of pulling down the Lewis gun like Ball and some others did. The way that your "eyes" move in a video game, pivoting in place rather than rotating in a head on a neck coupled with the slightly fish-eyed FOV that you can get with some views can make the dive and attack strategy hard to pull off without putting yourself right in the runner's view. Shooting from low and behind and zooming in a la McCudden seems to work ok. And Just remember, sometimes you will get a break when you least expect it...

Last edited by Rick_Rawlings; 07/28/21 12:43 PM.

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#4575617 - 07/28/21 12:04 AM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: One Post Wonder]  
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In my humble opinion when I go for a two seater I always attack from behind. I have tried the frontal approach but find I can easily lose sight of the EA formation or take too long to get into a position for another pass. The problem of attacking from behind apart from the superb gunnery of the observer is that it is easy to overshoot and cop a pasting from the EA front gun too, so any attack should be planned and careful.

#4575869 - 07/29/21 05:50 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: One Post Wonder]  
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There are three ways to attack them: below and behind, slashing attack from the sides, or from the front. Whichever one works best for you will depend on your machine and YOU. Just as an Albatros doesn't fly like a Camel doesn't fly like a SPAD doesn't fly like an E-III, Lou doesn't fly like pol doesn't fly like I don't fly like YOU. Personally, the only tactic I've ever had any luck with at all regardless what I'm in or attacking is below and behind (except against the Brisfit, which I just treat like a fighter with a rear gun). The trick with that is to learn how to fly near the stall point of your machine and use that to get an angle on your target. And watch for him to turn so his gunner has a shot at you or that you don't run into him. Go to QC, select your current ride, and put up two or three enemy two-seaters. And practice, practice, practice.


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#4575915 - 07/29/21 10:13 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: One Post Wonder]  
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One point that IMHO is often missed in this debate is that the observer in most 2-seaters (BE2 being an exception) was not a rear gunner constantly able to watch the skies but the guy who did the work - operated the camera, took the notes, or watched the fall of shot and morsed corrections. In other words, they were very vulnerable to being caught unawares. Also they often operated singly, not in the flight-sized formations represented in WoFF. They were, as described at the time, working machines not fighting machines, the likes of the Bristol Fighter and the German CL types being the exceptions not the rule.


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#4575975 - 07/30/21 02:46 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: One Post Wonder]  
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Found this on the Imperial War Museum site:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205184362

Attached Files Air technical diagram of the RFC fighter coming under enemy two-seat aircraft tail.jpg
#4575978 - 07/30/21 03:42 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: One Post Wonder]  
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It’s said that McCudden believed a well handled two seater was more than a match for a single scout. If they weren’t caught by surprise presumably. On the other hand twice in April 1917, 59 Sqn sent 6 Re8s on a photo recce mission and in both cases they were wiped out by a similar size force of Albatross from Jasta 11.


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#4575984 - 07/30/21 04:25 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: Jammer28]  
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Originally Posted by Jammer28
Found this on the Imperial War Museum site:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205184362


All very well when dealing with humans... but what about laser accurate AI that knows where you are at all times biggrin

#4576006 - 07/30/21 07:05 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: Rick_Rawlings]  
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Originally Posted by Rick_Rawlings
I wouldn't mind seeing them stop shooting at you when they are on fire, unless they are the most hardened of veterans!


A couple of days ago I was up against an Aviatik and shot her left wing off. As they went spiraling down the observer continued to shoot at me. Accurately!

Though I can't comment much on that. If I was in a plane that was going down with no hope, what else am I going to do other than shoot at the person who killed me? It would take my mind off other things if nothing else, though I'm not sure about the accuracy part!

Having played the game more I have to say that the piloting of those aircraft probably balances out the gunnery. More often than not the aircraft doesn't do much, or anything, in the way of maneuvers even after I start firing at them. Perhaps it's a fuel issue, but still. Also in Rise of Flight the 2 seaters get their job done then dive towards friendly lines as fast as they can barring getting too low over enemy positions, which seems like it would be more a realistic approach than WEFF where the formations often break up a bit and the aircraft remain at altitude. I know if I'm in a 2 seater, once my mission is done and I'm over friendly territory I get as close to the deck as possible . Either way 2 seaters seem a lot more vulnerable when heading home than at any other time. I think all of my 2 seater kills have been when they're heading home, whereas all of the times I've been killed, I'm attacking them when they're over the target or approaching it in their Vic formation.

In the end this is still a game and you want good balance in difficulty. The balance overall seems OK as I can still knock them down and you wouldn't want it to be too easy either. In a perfect world you'd want less talented observers and more talented pilots in those craft but it does wind up as the same level of difficulty in the end.

#4576008 - 07/30/21 07:17 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: Jammer28]  
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Originally Posted by Jammer28
Found this on the Imperial War Museum site:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205184362


Great illustration and a good approach. Around 1978 or 1979 my grandad brought me a book from the Darlaston library which was chock full of period illustrations like that. That particular one was in there - haven't seen that in over 40 years!

This book was sort of a compilation of different tactics, techniques and training advice that had been sent out to pilots. I remember one well where they were telling Be2c pilots to avoid the temptation to turn too soon after taking off, before they got their speed and height up. It showed a step by step procedure, really well illustrated, of how this pilot had messed up and what happened with the aircraft and flight characteristics as he messed up, with a final illustration of his Be2c nose down in some bushes.

I don't remember the name of the book but I wish I did. Has anyone else seen that? I wasn't old enough to appreciate that information at the time but I would now, and I'd probably be using some of it in these sims. There's a lot of great stuff in those old books from the 60's and 70's which probably came from pilot interviews and impromptu training guides written during the war, but never made it to the internet.

Sorry to go off topic in my own thread but that diagram brought me back!

Last edited by One Post Wonder; 07/30/21 07:23 PM.
#4576015 - 07/30/21 08:36 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: Trooper117]  
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Originally Posted by Trooper117
Originally Posted by Jammer28
Found this on the Imperial War Museum site:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205184362


All very well when dealing with humans... but what about laser accurate AI that knows where you are at all times biggrin

I know what you mean!

#4576016 - 07/30/21 08:40 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: One Post Wonder]  
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Originally Posted by One Post Wonder
Originally Posted by Jammer28
Found this on the Imperial War Museum site:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205184362


Great illustration and a good approach. Around 1978 or 1979 my grandad brought me a book from the Darlaston library which was chock full of period illustrations like that. That particular one was in there - haven't seen that in over 40 years!

This book was sort of a compilation of different tactics, techniques and training advice that had been sent out to pilots. I remember one well where they were telling Be2c pilots to avoid the temptation to turn too soon after taking off, before they got their speed and height up. It showed a step by step procedure, really well illustrated, of how this pilot had messed up and what happened with the aircraft and flight characteristics as he messed up, with a final illustration of his Be2c nose down in some bushes.

I don't remember the name of the book but I wish I did. Has anyone else seen that? I wasn't old enough to appreciate that information at the time but I would now, and I'd probably be using some of it in these sims. There's a lot of great stuff in those old books from the 60's and 70's which probably came from pilot interviews and impromptu training guides written during the war, but never made it to the internet.

Sorry to go off topic in my own thread but that diagram brought me back!

I don't know about the book. I'd like to read it myself.
If you head over to the IWM site you may be able to find other illustrations from the book.
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/...ds-with-media&style=list&filters[periodString][First+World+War]=on

Attached Files Air technical diagram of a Royal Aircraft Factory R.E.8 biplane having engine failure immediately after taking off, and attempting to turn back.jpg
#4576019 - 07/30/21 09:02 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: One Post Wonder]  
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The book in question may be 'Aces High' by Alan Clarke, which was around back in the 1970s and has been through many editions. I'm fairly sure my copy (in the loft somewhere) had both the illustrations mentioned - though I'm fairly sure the handling one featured an RE8, not a BE2.

Another good book, tho covering WW2 as well, is 'Fighting in the Air' by Arms & Armour Press, which was a compilation of numerous training articles, particularly on gunnery. It includes an un-illustrated short essay, 'Fighting [in] the SE, January 1918' which though not credited, was obviously written by McCudden and covers attacks on 2-seaters.


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#4576035 - 07/30/21 11:38 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: 33lima]  
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Originally Posted by 33lima
It’s said that McCudden believed a well handled two seater was more than a match for a single scout. If they weren’t caught by surprise presumably.

But how many two-seaters handle well? More than half of MvR's victories were two-seaters, And I believe most of those were with the observer/gunner in the rear. How many Gothas were shot down, even with gunners in front and back and a channel in the fuselage that largely eliminated the relative safety of the favored below-and-behind position? Look at the RAF's success against German bombers in the Battle of Britain, or the Luftwaffe's against American and British bombers. Personally, I think the big guys are unrealistically difficult to take down in every sim I've played.



Originally Posted by 33lima
One point that IMHO is often missed in this debate is that the observer in most 2-seaters (BE2 being an exception) was not a rear gunner constantly able to watch the skies but the guy who did the work - operated the camera, took the notes, or watched the fall of shot and morsed corrections. In other words, they were very vulnerable to being caught unawares.

A fair point. But one, I think, negated by the limitations in weaponry range/accuracy and aircraft speeds of the time. Even head-on, the combined speeds of most scouts and most two-seaters wasn't much over 200mph (apologies to those on the metric system). That's only about 300 feet per second. Unless you're literally coming out of the Sun, it's going to be hard to sneak up on anyone who's paying attention. And even though the observer might well be focusing his attention elsewhere, the pilot should have been scanning for enemy aircraft.


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#4576038 - 07/31/21 12:14 AM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: One Post Wonder]  
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Not being a smartass, but the statement says a 'well handled' 2 seater. The pilot having good skills in the 2 seater and being able to set up the rear gunner with good angles and clear shots, allowing him to defend their rear hemisphere is what is being emphasized. Frontal, lower hemisphere(if the pilot is not skilled) and slashing diving and side attacks are best, but don't usually result in a kill in a single pass. The speed of quite a few 2 seaters make multiple passes very tough. A Squad ganging up on one 2 seater is more lethal IMHO. I will try to follow another Scout attacking and come right in behind him for an attack as soon as he pulls off. This has worked fairly well for me and probably results in a downed 2 seater maybe 30% of the time, or maybe less.

S!Blade<><

#4576050 - 07/31/21 03:31 AM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: 33lima]  
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Originally Posted by 33lima
The book in question may be 'Aces High' by Alan Clarke, which was around back in the 1970s and has been through many editions. I'm fairly sure my copy (in the loft somewhere) had both the illustrations mentioned - though I'm fairly sure the handling one featured an RE8, not a BE2.

Another good book, tho covering WW2 as well, is 'Fighting in the Air' by Arms & Armour Press, which was a compilation of numerous training articles, particularly on gunnery. It includes an un-illustrated short essay, 'Fighting [in] the SE, January 1918' which though not credited, was obviously written by McCudden and covers attacks on 2-seaters.


Yes, I do believe that Jammer found the picture I was thinking of, an RE8, although it wasn't quite what my memory was telling me it was. And that site he linked has a treasure trove of illustrations like that. Great stuff, it all looks like it was done by the same person and he was really good at what he did.

I'm reading reviews on Aces High and if it is that book (I'm not 100%) it sounds like it is smaller and not as good as I remember. But when I read it at age 8 or so, it had a big effect on me and I'll likely pick it up. I read a book called "Iron Men with Wooden Wings" not long after and that book is probably the reason I wound up here. Reading it now, it's told in more of a story format than what you'd see in a typical non-fiction book. Maybe 20 chapters each telling a story of a part of the war or of an ace. And I don't know got some of his info from, as I've never read some of the stories in there anywhere else. One was that the fumes from the engine in the early planes would act as a laxative and so one French pilot had some mechanism set up in his craft whereby he could crap over the German lines. Maybe some of it isn't true, but those parts have the the air of being tall tales told by guys who were actually on the front, as opposed to someone making it up 50 years later, so I'll accept that.

I'll give 'Fighting in the Air' a look too... cheers!

#4576064 - 07/31/21 09:24 AM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: One Post Wonder]  
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I don't think there has ever been a Combat flight sim that hasn't had over-effective defensive gunners in the history of the genre!
That aside, one has to consider the comparative fire-power. WW1 one or two forward firing scout guns against similar in a two-seater. WW2 eight machine guns or multiple cannons against one or two machine guns (if approached from an effective position) in a bomber or heavy fighter. Higher speeds in WW2 would be a factor to consider too, and therefore windage, even in a powered turret.



#4576068 - 07/31/21 09:42 AM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: One Post Wonder]  
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Quote
unrealistically difficult to take down in every sim I've played.


I'd go along with that!

#4576079 - 07/31/21 12:20 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: One Post Wonder]  
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The AI seem to have no particular difficulty disposing of 2-seaters - this being the end of my RE8 campaign during the second mission...

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

PS please can OBD restore the missing interplane rigging wires to my RE8, for next time? I don't expect their absence contributed to my having my wings shot off, but even so...

Oh, and my observer was still shooting back, as we plunged vertically to our deaths.

Attached Files Shot07-31-21-11-20-16.jpgShot07-31-21-11-20-35.jpgShot07-31-21-11-20-44.jpg
Last edited by 33lima; 07/31/21 12:25 PM.

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#4576270 - 08/02/21 05:36 AM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: One Post Wonder]  
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A couple of not-very-flattering points to consider...especially if you enjoy the occasional light revelling in the misfortunes of others.

I definitely went above his line of sight and deserved to be hit, but really: shooting around the entire motor and hitting me in the first burst?

I think this one just speaks to the unsuitable-ness of the N28 in this situation: can't really snipe with no sight, hard to stay below with the stall speed. Although, as 33lima said, the AI was able to come in and do it. Although we did lose one from our flight and their ability to take down two-seaters is pretty hit or miss in other missions...


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#4576302 - 08/02/21 02:39 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: One Post Wonder]  
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I'm having a lot of difficulty with Roland CIIs, with my Spad VIIIs squadron (~Feb 1917).

Four of them just shot down my entire A and B flight within a few minutes of takeoff in a Scramble mission, though most of us survived with injuries/damaged machines. They then proceeded to bomb the airfield. I imagine they were laughing.

Is that just starting height advantage, or are they simply so significantly better aircraft, that I should hide or transfer squadrons for a while?

#4576314 - 08/02/21 04:38 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: One Post Wonder]  
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Yeah, the Rolands are in a class by themselves. They've been my sworn enemy for as long WOFF has been around. If by sworn enemy, I mean constantly getting pwned by...


The older I get, the more I realize I don't need to be Han, Luke or Leia. I'm just happy to be rebel scum...
#4576321 - 08/02/21 07:55 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: 33lima]  
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Originally Posted by 33lima
The AI seem to have no particular difficulty disposing of 2-seaters - this being the end of my RE8 campaign during the second mission...


I wonder if AI observers have the same fluctuation in skill as AI pilots do, or if they're all the same gunnery wise?

I ask because your observer has certain strengths and weaknesses that are listed if you go through your squadron roster. So maybe he missed those shots because he just wasn't very good, and he wasn't very good because he, being in a player controlled squadron, had detailed attributes laid out. Perhaps AI gunners aren't detailed in that way, so they're all pretty good. On my part there is no way I am going to get away with being at that angle and that distance behind a two seater. If I get off with having to crash-land after doing that I'll consider myself lucky.

Last edited by One Post Wonder; 08/02/21 07:56 PM.
#4576323 - 08/02/21 08:04 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: BD-123]  
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One Post Wonder Offline
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Originally Posted by BD-123
I don't think there has ever been a Combat flight sim that hasn't had over-effective defensive gunners in the history of the genre!


Except Heinkels for some reason, and that's even considering the disparity between WW2 bomber and fighter armament. I love how Heinkels look but everything I've played, even Over the Reich which was a turn-based game, you could sit behind a Heinkel and obliterate it while their defensive guns did little or no damage against you. I'm pretty sure I could shoot down a Heinkel in a Nieuport 11 if I could catch it.

It's off putting taking on different aircraft after you've spent a while fighting Heinkels. I rage quit when after trying to play the Germans in OVR I tried using the same tactics on a Wellington that I did on a Heinkel, and he shot down 3 of my planes in a row! In fact my experience against Heinkels might be shadowing my opinion of what a WW1 2 seater should do.

#4576328 - 08/02/21 08:24 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: Rick_Rawlings]  
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Originally Posted by Rick_Rawlings
I definitely went above his line of sight and deserved to be hit, but really: shooting around the entire motor and hitting me in the first burst?

Are you sure it was your target that got you? I've watched it a few times and I didn't see any tracers coming from his plane. Maybe one of his buddies jumped into the fight. Other than that, all I can think of is that it was the grandfather of Angelina Jolie's character in "Wanted".


SALUTE TO ALL!
#4576345 - 08/03/21 12:48 AM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: vonBaur]  
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Rick_Rawlings  Online Content
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Originally Posted by vonBaur
Originally Posted by Rick_Rawlings
I definitely went above his line of sight and deserved to be hit, but really: shooting around the entire motor and hitting me in the first burst?

Are you sure it was your target that got you? I've watched it a few times and I didn't see any tracers coming from his plane. Maybe one of his buddies jumped into the fight. Other than that, all I can think of is that it was the grandfather of Angelina Jolie's character in "Wanted".


That's certainly possible, although you can see how intermittently my tracers show up in the video. If true, that would just push the shot back to a truly Olympic-level deflection shot from an observer far away heading on different vector at a different elevation!


The older I get, the more I realize I don't need to be Han, Luke or Leia. I'm just happy to be rebel scum...
#4576457 - 08/03/21 10:28 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: One Post Wonder]  
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Your video doesn't show where they are/were/went. I don't know how the observers are modeled in the Caudron, but in other planes if you can't see them, they can't shoot at you (assuming you're that close, of course). And the top wing is clearly between you and him.

It's also possible that you got hit in the head, in which case the bullet would have gone over, not around, the engine. Lots of blood on those goggles.

My money is still on his buddies. Did you happen to look at the replay afterward?


SALUTE TO ALL!
#4576466 - 08/04/21 12:24 AM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: One Post Wonder]  
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Rick_Rawlings Online content
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No, I usually forget to...


The older I get, the more I realize I don't need to be Han, Luke or Leia. I'm just happy to be rebel scum...
#4581748 - 10/03/21 09:22 PM Re: 2 Seaters OP? [Re: One Post Wonder]  
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I'm finding that a lot of the more intricate attack plans where you face 2-seater formations head-on tend not to work for me - as soon as I get within like 2 miles of the formation, the formation just turns to the side and the whole thing goes to pot at that point.

That being said, in QC I *am* having success downing 2-seaters attacking from behind and below. I'm better as a tactical pilot improvising in the moment rather than as a calculating strategist sticking to The Plan™. Like the diagram on the first page says, though, when the 2-seater turns to give the gunner a line of sight on me, I'm turning the opposite direction to get out of the gun sight and create some space for the next attack.

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