Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#4575446 - 07/26/21 01:23 PM History is full of "what ifs".  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 114,894
PanzerMeyer Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 114,894
Miami, FL USA
Here are two incidents which many people are not aware about and especially the one concerning Churchill:

Churchill nearly run over in NYC:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwar...hurchill%2C%20while%20driving%20a%20car.



FDR assassination attempt in Miami:

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/fdr-escapes-assassination-in-miami


I think it's safe to say that the strategic management of the war effort during WWII would have turned out very differently had both Churchill and FDR died in those incidents.





Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 07/26/21 01:24 PM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4575450 - 07/26/21 01:48 PM Re: History is full of "what ifs". [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 4,042
NoFlyBoy Offline
Senior Member
NoFlyBoy  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 4,042
What if Napoleon won at Waterloo?

What if Hitler did not declare war on USA after December 7th?

What if the South won the Civil War?

What if OJ Simpson play The Terminator?

#4575451 - 07/26/21 01:52 PM Re: History is full of "what ifs". [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 114,894
PanzerMeyer Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 114,894
Miami, FL USA
Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy

What if Hitler did not declare war on USA after December 7th?




Lots of books written about this and many debates between historians as well.

Many people don't realize that the Tripartite Pact was a defensive alliance. In other words, Germany was not obligated by the treaty to go to war with the US but Hitler chose to do so at the recommendation of several of his generals and admirals.


Hitler made many mistakes but the two colossal mistakes that he made which doomed Germany to total defeat were both made in 1941. His invasion of the USSR and his declaration of war on the US.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4575453 - 07/26/21 02:11 PM Re: History is full of "what ifs". [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 4,042
NoFlyBoy Offline
Senior Member
NoFlyBoy  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 4,042
I think his biggest mistake before those was in 1940 during the Battle of Britain. If he didn't start dropping bomb on London and continue destroying the English airfields, the Royal Air Force and war factories. Britain would had collapsed. The war would had ended.

#4575455 - 07/26/21 02:22 PM Re: History is full of "what ifs". [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 114,894
PanzerMeyer Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 114,894
Miami, FL USA
Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
I think his biggest mistake before those was in 1940 during the Battle of Britain. If he didn't start dropping bomb on London and continue destroying the English airfields, the Royal Air Force and war factories. Britain would had collapsed. The war would had ended.



No. Germany and Italy could not have defeated the British Empire until the Royal Navy was destroyed and it was exactly the existence of the Royal Navy why the air war over the UK occurred in the first place. And keep in mind that even the massive Allied bombing of German industry in 1943 and 1944 didn't prevent the Germans from producing record quantities of vehicles, munitions, etc. so it's extremely doubtful that the Germans in 1940 had the capability to sufficiently bomb the UK armaments industry into submission.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4575471 - 07/26/21 04:16 PM Re: History is full of "what ifs". [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 4,042
NoFlyBoy Offline
Senior Member
NoFlyBoy  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 4,042
What I am thinking is what if Hitler won the Battle of Britain and his troops landed on British beaches and move on to take London. I don't know where Hitler would had landed his troops. Looking at the map I chose Dover, closer to France. GMap says Dover to London is 78 miles. That is nothing for the German Army with their Blitzkrieg.

#4575475 - 07/26/21 04:27 PM Re: History is full of "what ifs". [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 114,894
PanzerMeyer Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 114,894
Miami, FL USA
Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
What I am thinking is what if Hitler won the Battle of Britain and his troops landed on British beaches and move on to take London. I don't know where Hitler would had landed his troops. Looking at the map I chose Dover, closer to France. GMap says Dover to London is 78 miles. That is nothing for the German Army with their Blitzkrieg.


With the Royal Navy in existence, any successful invasion of the UK was impossible. There is no "winning of the Battle of Britain" if the Royal Navy still exists.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4575476 - 07/26/21 04:32 PM Re: History is full of "what ifs". [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 9,528
DBond Offline
Strategerizer
DBond  Offline
Strategerizer
Hotshot

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 9,528
NooJoyzee
Right because as everyone knows the Dover coast is well suited to amphibious operations with its protected anchorage and gradually sloping beaches. Hell, it's so close to France the Germans probably could have gotten a running start and just skipped across the channel like stones, rolling up on the Dover beach and straight on to London. Skipzkreig we can call it.


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4575477 - 07/26/21 04:35 PM Re: History is full of "what ifs". [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 114,894
PanzerMeyer Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 114,894
Miami, FL USA
LOL Well played DBond, well played.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4575479 - 07/26/21 04:40 PM Re: History is full of "what ifs". [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 16,843
Nixer Online cool
Scaliwag and Survivor
Nixer  Online Cool
Scaliwag and Survivor
Veteran

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 16,843
Living with the Trees
White Cliffs are just as good as white sandy beaches...right?


Look for me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook or Tic Toc...or anywhere you may frequent, besides SimHq, on the Global Scam Net. Aka, the internet.
I am not there, never have been or ever will be, but the fruitless search may be more gratifying then the "content" you might otherwise be exposed to.

"There's a sucker born every minute."
Phineas Taylor Barnum

#4575481 - 07/26/21 04:42 PM Re: History is full of "what ifs". [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 114,894
PanzerMeyer Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 114,894
Miami, FL USA
Heck, even the Romans and Normans knew that you don't invade Britain at fricking Dover.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4575487 - 07/26/21 05:20 PM Re: History is full of "what ifs". [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 9,528
DBond Offline
Strategerizer
DBond  Offline
Strategerizer
Hotshot

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 9,528
NooJoyzee
But it is soooo close!

Sorry for the derail, but that one was just teed up for me ya know?

Hitler what-ifs are a little cliche, but historical what-ifs, especially if they are related to WW2, are one of my favorite topics for discussion. There are many that make for excellent debate, but the one that fascinates me the most?

What if Bull hadn't run?

What if Halsey had not taken the obvious bait and indeed left TF 34 guarding San Bernardino that night? If I discount the human cost for a moment, I'm left with the academic exercise of what the outcome of this engagement would have been. And it makes for great discussion, and I've seen strong cases for various outcomes, although I have my opinion too.


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4575488 - 07/26/21 05:40 PM Re: History is full of "what ifs". [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,804
Mr_Blastman Online content
Hotshot
Mr_Blastman  Online Content
Hotshot

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,804
Atlanta, GA
This "what if" concept is quite interesting, and in fact, if you were to change the placement of a few dominoes in random locations along the chain, a profoundly different outcome could result.

A nice way to test this beyond dominoes, which are far too simple, is through real time strategy games, particularly in an online multiplayer session. Say a community plays a single map--there are strategies and tactics that are accepted as best case for that map, depending on player position. From my own personal experience, doing the same thing over and over produces a generally similar result unless the skill divide between two opponents is drastic. However, if you change up your strategy, do something different early in the game--one might think you would be doomed to fail because you were doing something different than the generally accepted method--that you would end up.. behind and disadvantaged.

This could be true.

However, what I have found is if you perform a different, radical strategy, the state of the game will also be altered and quite different 10 minutes, 15 minutes, even 30 minutes into the game. The course doesn't revert to the generally prescribed path. The actions taken do matter, and there isn't a necessary route to achieve the end goal of victory. The changes compound on one another leading to an entirely different future state.

One could say that the established norms and prescriptions are wrong, even though they have shown time and time again that victory will result from sticking to them.


So if anyone is curious about this "what if" concept, try a real time strategy game sometime versus others. They're fun to tinker with.

Last edited by Mr_Blastman; 07/27/21 03:20 AM.
#4575500 - 07/26/21 08:19 PM Re: History is full of "what ifs". [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 4,042
NoFlyBoy Offline
Senior Member
NoFlyBoy  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 4,042
I look at the map and pick the shortest distance. I don't know the beaches of Dover had cliffs. If the U.S. Rangers could climb the cliffs at Point du Hoc, the mighty unstoppable German Army of 1940 could had done the same at Dover with ease..

Some of these photos show regular beaches, not everything is cliffy in Dover.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attract...lbumid=-160&type=0&category=-160

https://www.dreamstime.com/photos-images/dover-england-beach.html

#4575503 - 07/26/21 09:30 PM Re: History is full of "what ifs". [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 21,968
oldgrognard Offline
Administrator
oldgrognard  Offline
Administrator
Lifer

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 21,968
USA
That is a very poor comparison and creates a very false comparison of situations and capabilities.


Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
#4575504 - 07/26/21 09:39 PM Re: History is full of "what ifs". [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,471
rwatson Offline
Hotshot
rwatson  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,471
New Concord, Ohio
As stated before as long as the Royal Navy was strong it would have tore up the invading force...The British navy has always been a force to be reckoned with by any enemies.Hitlers biggest mistake was taking on Russia,He didn't learn what Napoleon did the hard way.


Russ
Semper Fi
#4575517 - 07/26/21 10:37 PM Re: History is full of "what ifs". [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 16,843
Nixer Online cool
Scaliwag and Survivor
Nixer  Online Cool
Scaliwag and Survivor
Veteran

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 16,843
Living with the Trees
Hitler couldn't learn.

He already knew everything.


Look for me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook or Tic Toc...or anywhere you may frequent, besides SimHq, on the Global Scam Net. Aka, the internet.
I am not there, never have been or ever will be, but the fruitless search may be more gratifying then the "content" you might otherwise be exposed to.

"There's a sucker born every minute."
Phineas Taylor Barnum

#4575557 - 07/27/21 10:37 AM Re: History is full of "what ifs". [Re: rwatson]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 114,894
PanzerMeyer Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 114,894
Miami, FL USA
Originally Posted by rwatson
.Hitlers biggest mistake was taking on Russia,He didn't learn what Napoleon did the hard way.


A quote from Franz Halder who was chief of the general staff from 1938-1942:

"The Russian colossus...has been underestimated by us... whenever a dozen divisions are destroyed the Russians replace them with another dozen... ."



Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 07/27/21 10:38 AM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4575577 - 07/27/21 02:46 PM Re: History is full of "what ifs". [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 4,042
NoFlyBoy Offline
Senior Member
NoFlyBoy  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 4,042
Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by rwatson
.Hitlers biggest mistake was taking on Russia,He didn't learn what Napoleon did the hard way.


A quote from Franz Halder who was chief of the general staff from 1938-1942:

"The Russian colossus...has been underestimated by us... whenever a dozen divisions are destroyed the Russians replace them with another dozen... ."





That is true. I play Panzer General game as the German fighting the Russians and at the end of each battle, there is a historical note. I WIKI it and it's accurate. In some of those battles, the German destroyed or captured 1000 of tanks, guns, vehicles of all kind and took many many prisoners. In one battle over 600,000 Russian soldiers were taken prisoners. During the entire war, Germany took as many as 6 million Russian soldiers prisoners and over 2/3 of them did not survive the war.

The Russian had so much of everything and it wasn't just from what the American and British gave them. Their war factories was like American war factories. They never stopped and maybe made more tanks and guns and vehicles and airplanes than the American war factories did.

I remember reading one time that in a battle where Russia attacked instead of defending, they had 1000 of guns for each km along a 1000 km long front. Imagine being a German soldier and that many guns open fire at the same time on you.

#4575581 - 07/27/21 03:11 PM Re: History is full of "what ifs". [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,471
rwatson Offline
Hotshot
rwatson  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,471
New Concord, Ohio
One thing the Russians did was unflinchingly throw troops into a battle without regard for losses.They had an almost unlimited supply of fresh meat and an unlimited vast land to overextend the German troops and due to Hitler the Generals were unable to fight a solid military strategy and were always told to push forward in a rather haphazard way.But he thought he was smarter than his Generals .Heck he was a Corporal he knew everything.And in the end the German people lost everything.


NFB if you like Panzer General check this out.It's an older Panzer Corps game and there's a Panzer Corps 2 also but I prefer the gold edition of the first it has all the DLC's rolled into one.It's what I quit playing Panzer General for.
https://www.matrixgames.com/game/panzer-corps-gold


Russ
Semper Fi
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Good bye Ebay
by WangoTango. 09/22/21 03:51 PM
Tueday silliness
by Bill_Grant. 09/21/21 01:44 PM
Anyone???
by Bill_Grant. 09/21/21 01:42 PM
Sensory overload
by WangoTango. 09/19/21 07:58 PM
Goodwood Revival
by KraziKanuK. 09/19/21 04:06 PM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0