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#4569044 - 05/19/21 06:59 AM Re: How to stabilize view with the FLIR / DTV ? [Re: phenixfulcrum2]  
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messyhead Offline
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EE2 uses DirectX 9 shaders . EECH still uses DirectX 7, but has been pushed as far as it can. That's what causes some fps drops. EE2 hasn't had the graphics pushed as much as EECH has.

If EECH used DirectX 9 shaders, then it would look a lot better.

I started trying to reverse engineer EE2 last year to see if I could decode the source and bring it into EECH, but it was too difficult for me to get into.

http://eechcentral.SimHQ.com/index.php?title=Enemy_Engaged_2

Last edited by messyhead; 05/19/21 07:05 AM.
#4569056 - 05/19/21 10:03 AM Re: How to stabilize view with the FLIR / DTV ? [Re: phenixfulcrum2]  
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If I remember correctly this question was asked time ago, but let me ask it again: As individual with non programing experience in projects like this, I can't avoid ask myself why only focus on DirectX instead of Vulkan?

Sorry if it's a non sense question. I repeat my programing skills are very far from the minum requirements that a project like EECH code demands.

Regards

#4569064 - 05/19/21 11:32 AM Re: How to stabilize view with the FLIR / DTV ? [Re: bostar]  
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messyhead Offline
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Originally Posted by bostar
If I remember correctly this question was asked time ago, but let me ask it again: As individual with non programing experience in projects like this, I can't avoid ask myself why only focus on DirectX instead of Vulkan?

Sorry if it's a non sense question. I repeat my programing skills are very far from the minum requirements that a project like EECH code demands.

Regards


It's not a nonsense question. In fact, Firebird had implemented using Ogre to do the graphics work instead of DirectX, and there is a version that can be run using Ogre. But it's incomplete work.

The only blocker to using any other engine, is the no-how in how to port everything across into it. I suppose DX is mentioned most as the game already uses DX, so might be easier upgrading, than starting again in a new engine.

However, just updating the game to run in a new engine won't bring immediate benefits and make the graphics look better. Models, textures, terrain etc would all need reworked to use the updated engine capabilities. It's a 2 stage process really, 1 - get the game running reliably in a new engine, then, 2 - update the graphics assets to use the new engines capabilities.

Last edited by messyhead; 05/19/21 11:41 AM.
#4569071 - 05/19/21 01:27 PM Re: How to stabilize view with the FLIR / DTV ? [Re: messyhead]  
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bostar Offline
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Originally Posted by messyhead

It's not a nonsense question. In fact, Firebird had implemented using Ogre to do the graphics work instead of DirectX, and there is a version that can be run using Ogre. But it's incomplete work.

The only blocker to using any other engine, is the no-how in how to port everything across into it. I suppose DX is mentioned most as the game already uses DX, so might be easier upgrading, than starting again in a new engine.

However, just updating the game to run in a new engine won't bring immediate benefits and make the graphics look better. Models, textures, terrain etc would all need reworked to use the updated engine capabilities. It's a 2 stage process really, 1 - get the game running reliably in a new engine, then, 2 - update the graphics assets to use the new engines capabilities.


I see more clearly now, thank you!

#4569076 - 05/19/21 02:08 PM Re: How to stabilize view with the FLIR / DTV ? [Re: messyhead]  
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Reticuli Offline
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I thought TheAlx said he'd already superficially ported something in EECH to DX9 but that nothing new was being used in it, like DX7 code running in some kind of superficial DX9 framework. I was assuming that's why the stereo effect is now completely nonfunctional... something in the porting process busted it. I'm uncertain what he claims he did exactly or why he did it.

Last edited by Reticuli; 05/19/21 02:09 PM.

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#4569086 - 05/19/21 03:46 PM Re: How to stabilize view with the FLIR / DTV ? [Re: Reticuli]  
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Originally Posted by Reticuli
I thought TheAlx said he'd already superficially ported something in EECH to DX9 but that nothing new was being used in it, like DX7 code running in some kind of superficial DX9 framework. I was assuming that's why the stereo effect is now completely nonfunctional... something in the porting process busted it. I'm uncertain what he claims he did exactly or why he did it.


Maybe, but I'm not sure. A lot of the old cockpits, like the Havoc, used direct draw from DX7. That's why the instruments stopped working in D3D9, and might also be why stereoscopic stopped working.

#4569255 - 05/20/21 04:37 PM Re: How to stabilize view with the FLIR / DTV ? [Re: messyhead]  
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Reticuli Offline
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Originally Posted by messyhead
Originally Posted by Reticuli
I thought TheAlx said he'd already superficially ported something in EECH to DX9 but that nothing new was being used in it, like DX7 code running in some kind of superficial DX9 framework. I was assuming that's why the stereo effect is now completely nonfunctional... something in the porting process busted it. I'm uncertain what he claims he did exactly or why he did it.


Maybe, but I'm not sure. A lot of the old cockpits, like the Havoc, used direct draw from DX7. That's why the instruments stopped working in D3D9, and might also be why stereoscopic stopped working.


Which again begs the question "Why?" since it doesn't appear to have added any capability and all it did apparently is break more things and remove compatibility with some old mods. Maybe some future plans he (or whoever did it) had for something, but now he (at least) is apparently hard into MSFS 2020 instead. I'm curious as to when this superficial porting happened.

Back to the EO stabilization, all that ground stabilization is supposed to do is that once you have locked and unlocked it is supposed to remain stationary with the ground even if the helicopter moves and there is no target. The closest we seem to get to that now in 1.16 is locking to the ground without unlocking, but then it's very slow to move.

Last edited by Reticuli; 05/20/21 10:37 PM.

The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

Saitek X65 and X52, Glide, Winx3D, and GlovePIE Profiles http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=reticuli&CatID=miscmisc

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X52 + Silicone Grease = JOY stick
#4569294 - 05/20/21 09:18 PM Re: How to stabilize view with the FLIR / DTV ? [Re: Reticuli]  
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messyhead Offline
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Originally Posted by messyhead
Maybe, but I'm not sure. A lot of the old cockpits, like the Havoc, used direct draw from DX7. That's why the instruments stopped working in D3D9, and might also be why stereoscopic stopped working.


Originally Posted by Reticuli

Which again begs the question "Why?" since it doesn't appear to have added any capability and all it did apparently is break more things and remove compatibility with some old mods. Maybe some future plans he (or whoever did it) had for something, but now he (at least) is apparently hard into MSFS 2020 instead. I'm curious as to when this superficial porting happened.


When I say a lot of the old cockpits, that's not really accurate, as it's only really the Apache A (which had already had 3D needles added in previous mods), and the Havoc. The Comanche and Hokum were all "digital" in that they used MFDs for the displays.

Direct Draw is primarily for 2D, Direct3D is for full 3D, which is why the 2D cockpits stopped working. Moving to Direct3D was a step towards updating the engine. But as I've said, noone has since updated anything else to start using more of the DirectX APIs to add other effects. The game code can now be compiled using DirectX9 libraries instead of DirectX7.

#4569357 - 05/21/21 12:11 PM Re: How to stabilize view with the FLIR / DTV ? [Re: phenixfulcrum2]  
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Quote
Which again begs the question "Why?" since it doesn't appear to have added any capability and all it did apparently is break more things and remove compatibility with some old mods. Maybe some future plans he (or whoever did it) had for something, but now he (at least) is apparently hard into MSFS 2020 instead. I'm curious as to when this superficial porting happened.


This was the reason I proposed to improve EECH based on 1.15.4, cause some of cockpits did not working anymore since 1.16.0. Fortunately this was all fixed by messyhead, who did most of the work to get things running again in 1.16.X and also the most work on the whole EECH project since 2016.

I already had that fear in 2016, that all those promised improvements will never come true and that it is mostly needless to update the engine to DX9, if all those things never will happen.

It was already foreseeable in 2016, that a lot of the modders left EECH for ever and all those things which needed the version upgrade will never be implemented, cause no one else is able to do it. But instead it broke more things that it has improved and a lot of work had to be done to only get already working things functional again.

Imagine how much could be improved in 1.15.X with all those work, which was only necessary for 1.16.X to get things running again. And the graphics aren't much more worse in 1.15.4, than in 1.16.X. But we could have some more flyable choppers instead and other improvements.

Just my two cents.

And to be honest, this was also the reason, for me personally, why I lost the interest in EECH Allmods and only finished my KA-50 cockpit as promised.


Last edited by Viper1970; 05/21/21 12:50 PM.

CockpitPC1: Ryzen9 5950X|64GB DDR4|512GB M2 SSD|2TB M2 SSD|Geforce RTX3090|Reverb G2|Win11Pro
CockpitPC2: PhenomII X6 1100T|32GB DDR2|2x 2TB HDD|2x Geforce GTX660 SLI|Win7Pro64
ComUnitPC1: Ryzen9 3900XT|32GB DDR4|2x 2TB HDD|Geforce RTX2070|Win11 Pro
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ComUnitPC4: K6-2+|768MB SDR|640GB HDD|Geforce 256DDR|VoodooI|Win98SE
#4569410 - 05/21/21 03:36 PM Re: How to stabilize view with the FLIR / DTV ? [Re: phenixfulcrum2]  
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I agree.

For a long while the modding has been pushed towards the "eye candy" updates by people like Banita. I only know of TheAlx and Messyhead who have worked on fixing things.

Don't get me wrong, I just LOVE the Poland map and play there most of the time, but do we REALLY need animated grass ?

Maybe I'm biased as I play within a real cockpit and only really see the outside view, so the instruments, cockpit and exterior views mean nothing to me.


Problem is, we have so few modders these days. Because they are giving up their time to mod the game, they decide what to do.

I know from experience that it's hard to follow someone else's code especially the way EECH was written, so I can understand if they don't want to give themselves that headache.

The alternative is to learn to code (as Messyhead has) and get stuck in yourself. I did try that, but couldn't follow the program flow in EECH. It seems to jump about a lot, and even finding where a variable was used was difficult. Maybe it was just the way I was trying to do it, I don't know.


I believe that The Alx moved it over to DX9 in the hope that some of the other modders of that time would pick up on the advantages of the new framework and produce upgrades based on it. Unfortunately, that never happened and a lot of the modders dissapeared.

How we go forward from here I do not know, maybe Viper is right and we have to go back to a previous working version and come forward again.

Just my "humble" opinion guys.

Andy

PS it's nice to see these discussions going on without all the emotion.


Andy's simpit: http://www.simpit.me.uk
#4569416 - 05/21/21 04:11 PM Re: How to stabilize view with the FLIR / DTV ? [Re: AndyB]  
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Originally Posted by AndyB
I believe that The Alx moved it over to DX9 in the hope that some of the other modders of that time would pick up on the advantages of the new framework and produce upgrades based on it. Unfortunately, that never happened and a lot of the modders dissapeared.

How we go forward from here I do not know, maybe Viper is right and we have to go back to a previous working version and come forward again.

Just my "humble" opinion guys.

Andy

PS it's nice to see these discussions going on without all the emotion.


It was FireBird that moved to Direct3d9, then thealx helped fix and reports issues.

I agree it's good to have a discussion on this subject, but it needs a new thread as this was has been hijacked and off topic. I don't want to get into some things here, so I'm going to PM you all about some things to do with 1.15.4, then we can come up with a plan.

#4569431 - 05/21/21 07:03 PM Re: How to stabilize view with the FLIR / DTV ? [Re: phenixfulcrum2]  
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Turns out ground stabilization in 1.16.2 itself is not actually broken, it just requires Ctrl S first to bring the "S" onto the EO and it's also a bit weak, as it still moves a little as your helo moves, but stabilizes somewhat. It does not require a prior lock and unlock to stabilize, just the "S" active. EECH 2's is exactly the same. It needs to be allowed with 1 in the EECH.ini. Oddly enough, when the EO is zoomed-in then locking to the ground is actually faster moving than ground stab is, but if you are zoomed out the unlocked ground stab mode is the faster movement. Anyway, this is obviously only a part of Phenixfulcrum2's issues, though. Try turning that new Crtl H auto turn to target, even if it's weak, and try not to bank when hovering as that's going to add the unwanted auto turn coordination yaw. I just bound Ctrl H and Ctrl S to the same button for the heck of it and it's not too terrible in combination. Don't neglect the EECH.ini settings, go over my FM tweaks and adhere to them, and consider PPJoy & GlovePIE for auto trimming and/or for a trim axis.

Last edited by Reticuli; 05/21/21 08:12 PM.

The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

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#4569444 - 05/21/21 07:57 PM Re: How to stabilize view with the FLIR / DTV ? [Re: Reticuli]  
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Originally Posted by Reticuli
Turns out ground stabilization in 1.16.2 itself is not actually broken, it just requires Ctrl S first to bring the "S" onto the EO and it's also a bit weak, as it still moves a little as your helo moves, but stabilizes somewhat. It does not require a prior lock and unlock to stabilize, just the "S" active. EECH 2's is exactly the same. It needs to be allowed with 1 in the EECH.ini. Oddly enough, when the EO is zoomed-in then locking to the ground is actually faster moving than ground stab is, but if you are zoomed out the unlocked ground stab mode is the faster movement. Anyway, this is obviously only a part of Phenixfulcrum2's issues, though. Try turning that new Crtl H auto turn to target, even if it's weak, and try not to bank when hovering as that's going to add the unwanted auto turn coordination yaw. I just bound Ctrl H and Ctrl S to the same button for the heck of it and it's not too terrible in combination. Don't neglect the EECH.ini settings, go over my FM tweaks and adhere to them, and consider PPJoy & GlovePIE for auto trimming and/or for a trim axis.


Sorry, english is not my native language, so i have difficulties to understand what you write. Can you tell me if it's good :
1) i have to modify eech.ini with the parameter grstab=1
2) before using CTRL H, i must do CTRL S

Thx !

#4569445 - 05/21/21 08:04 PM Re: How to stabilize view with the FLIR / DTV ? [Re: phenixfulcrum2]  
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Originally Posted by phenixfulcrum2

1) i have to modify eech.ini with the parameter grstab=1


Yes, you allow it to be activated with that value set to 1 in the ini, but you still need Ctrl S in the sim. Since you're in the ini, make sure you check other stuff and do the FM tweaks for having crosscoupling ON and/or flying coaxials:

flight_model=0
drv=1.0
dra=1.0
drd=0.1
dmrl=0.9
dtrd=10.0
dyal=2.5
dyad=3.0

Originally Posted by phenixfulcrum2

2) before using CTRL H, i must do CTRL S


The order doesn't make any difference. You just might want to utilize them both, though they don't work at the same time. They work independently, and both are weak effects.

Ctrl H gives a little turn to target lock from the yaw when you're auto stable hovering (Shift H) and locked (Numpad Enter), showing an "H" in the bottom right of the EO display.

Ctrl S provides a little ground stab to the EO when you are unlocked and shows an "S".

However, when you are zoomed far in, you might want to just lock to the ground for targets in the dirt, because you can slew the EO around faster for some reason and it's also better stabilized than ground stab. If you're zoomed out, ground stab without a lock is faster-slewing even though it's not as stabilized as a lock to ground. For air targets, you're kind of screwed either way, since the ground stab understandably can't do much, obviously, and you can't just lock to the ground when pointed at the sky, either. So the EO system still wants to unlock air targets pretty easily, and it's too early for me to even say "S" has resolved most of the issue with it auto unlocking ground targets or the inability to acquire targets automatically at any but the closest ranges with the EO on some helos, like on the Kiowa and Viper.

Last edited by Reticuli; 05/22/21 04:09 PM.

The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

Saitek X65 and X52, Glide, Winx3D, and GlovePIE Profiles http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=reticuli&CatID=miscmisc

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X52 + Silicone Grease = JOY stick
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