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#4567428 - 05/06/21 07:38 AM Viper seems to have better stealth than comanche  
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Hijongpark Offline
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Is it me or enemies cant spot AH-1Z viper as good as others ?

When I fly apache or comanche, enemy SAM sites immediately attack when they are spotted and within 8 Km. but when I fly AH-1Z viper, enemies cannot spot and attack me even when im completely exposed to them, unless im very close.

considering Viper wasnt the official content and later added by modders, I wonder if they screwed up the helicoipter stealth ability values.

#4567493 - 05/06/21 03:55 PM Re: Viper seems to have better stealth than comanche [Re: Hijongpark]  
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AndyB Offline
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Hi,

I may be wrong here, but I believe that the new helicopters were just copies of existing ones with new cockpits/textures.

If it were being realistic at all, the Comanche should be the most stealhy as that was the way it was designed.

I checked the EECH.ini file and I can't see anything in there to alter the stealthy characteristics.

I also checked through the GWUT1160.csv file and there are a couple of differnces between the Comanche and the Viper. One was it's surface threat level, but the Viper is HIGHER than the Comanche so I'd have thought it would be detected earlier.

It is possible, as you suggested, that something was changed when the Viper was added, but I'm not even sure who did that one now.

Sorry I couldn't be more help.

Maybe some of the remaining modders will reply if they're not too busy.

Cheers,

Andy


Andy's simpit: http://www.simpit.me.uk
#4567517 - 05/06/21 06:55 PM Re: Viper seems to have better stealth than comanche [Re: Hijongpark]  
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Reticuli Offline
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Reticuli  Offline
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I haven't noticed the Viper any less vulnerable to detection than the Apache A or the Kiowa.


The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

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#4567543 - 05/07/21 01:54 AM Re: Viper seems to have better stealth than comanche [Re: Reticuli]  
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Hijongpark Offline
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Originally Posted by Reticuli
I haven't noticed the Viper any less vulnerable to detection than the Apache A or the Kiowa.



Then, why they spot Apache D and comanche extremely well ?

Last edited by Hijongpark; 05/07/21 01:54 AM.
#4567547 - 05/07/21 02:43 AM Re: Viper seems to have better stealth than comanche [Re: Hijongpark]  
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Reticuli Offline
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The enemy shouldn't spot the Comanche well at a distance if she's all buttoned up, the EFAMS wing stubs aren't attached, and the radar is off. The issue is that Comanche gives themselves away too easily and quickly when you turn on the radar or fire on anyone. The FLIR isn't working so great anymore. You also can't call in artillery or air strikes or really even designate targets well for wingmen in later portions of campaigns when flights are more mixed. The AI seems to become rapidly omnipotent and there's not much you can do about it yet. Then there's the issue of SAM detection of aircraft in general. Change logs indicated this was made more nuanced, but it still seems quite rapid and all-seeing. It certainly isn't an easy sim.

Have you found the Viper is better to get in close to SAMs than the Comanche? If I use the Comanche just for recon and don't engage targets, I seem definitely able to get closer to SAMs without being shot at. Viper seems like a vulnerable target to me when I'm in it, particularly with its glitchy FLIR. I did, however, increase the durability of the Viper in my GWUT:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n3DUCoXDh0JvFSObCKLLLtqZnI6lPRzS/view?usp=sharing

Here's my ini again, too, and obviously your joystick config will be different. I am using FM 0 and all in-sim dynamics settings ON.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tXP7UzHE4r_dbfTfqzYNDBE_rIBpzRpU/view?usp=sharing

My in-sim Realism settings are as follows:

Novice
On
Realistic
Hard
On

Last edited by Reticuli; 05/07/21 03:07 AM.

The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

Saitek X65 and X52, Glide, Winx3D, and GlovePIE Profiles http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=reticuli&CatID=miscmisc

http://library.avsim.net/register.php

X52 + Silicone Grease = JOY stick
#4567557 - 05/07/21 05:06 AM Re: Viper seems to have better stealth than comanche [Re: Reticuli]  
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Hijongpark Offline
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Hijongpark  Offline
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Originally Posted by Reticuli
The enemy shouldn't spot the Comanche well at a distance if she's all buttoned up, the EFAMS wing stubs aren't attached, and the radar is off. The issue is that Comanche gives themselves away too easily and quickly when you turn on the radar or fire on anyone. The FLIR isn't working so great anymore. You also can't call in artillery or air strikes or really even designate targets well for wingmen in later portions of campaigns when flights are more mixed. The AI seems to become rapidly omnipotent and there's not much you can do about it yet. Then there's the issue of SAM detection of aircraft in general. Change logs indicated this was made more nuanced, but it still seems quite rapid and all-seeing. It certainly isn't an easy sim.

Have you found the Viper is better to get in close to SAMs than the Comanche? If I use the Comanche just for recon and don't engage targets, I seem definitely able to get closer to SAMs without being shot at. Viper seems like a vulnerable target to me when I'm in it, particularly with its glitchy FLIR. I did, however, increase the durability of the Viper in my GWUT:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n3DUCoXDh0JvFSObCKLLLtqZnI6lPRzS/view?usp=sharing

Here's my ini again, too, and obviously your joystick config will be different. I am using FM 0 and all in-sim dynamics settings ON.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tXP7UzHE4r_dbfTfqzYNDBE_rIBpzRpU/view?usp=sharing

My in-sim Realism settings are as follows:

Novice
On
Realistic
Hard
On



I think losing FLIR lock is related the smokes hiding the target, I'd try smoke = 0.0 in eech.ini

#4567620 - 05/07/21 05:09 PM Re: Viper seems to have better stealth than comanche [Re: Hijongpark]  
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Reticuli Offline
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Reticuli  Offline
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Dayton, OH, USA
Originally Posted by Hijongpark


I think losing FLIR lock is related the smokes hiding the target, I'd try smoke = 0.0 in eech.ini


I didn't expect that to do anything, and smoke effectiveness to zero didn't. Happens with everything in newer EECH mod versions, including trying to track helos that are high above the ground and don't emit smoke. It's like someone wanted to make the FLIR auto lock less effective at distance and they way overdid it. Seems worse on the Kiowa, Zulu/Viper, and Blackshark, but the test I just did was from the Comanche and it still kept flickering off the target. Even at a range of 1500 it was still flickering some. Heck, I'd be fine with us removing the radar from the Comanche in theory, but obviously with the state of the FLIR targeting right now that'd be unwise.

I seen no indication of ground stabilization working anymore, either.

Also, the light hazy horizon is really annoying. Not sure why someone made it light colored when it can be made dark in the FLIR. It's even light colored at night! Not an issue in EECH2. Wonder if that somehow is part of the FLIR calculations, though. Certainly it reduces visibility in the FLIR itself.

And I'm getting pretty frequent CTDs in 1.16.2 in Cuba right now after returning back to this version after trying Messy's BH pit. I mean, his had problems, but I'm getting similar problems just with the stock 1.16.2 exe, too. Just ran the debug version of 1.16.2 and it came up with some ASSERT paths terrain nodes thing from a mystery J drive. This is way less stable than it used to be prior to the BH additions. The FLIR problem was a pre-existing issue, though.

Hell, it CTDs just clicking on a Cuba save game even before jumping into it.

Now I got another one on the Lebanon map just flying around. At least I got into that map...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1A8FFU_UxkJTHSyC3j_80Qh8cvO_q_IHI/view?usp=sharing

Last edited by Reticuli; 05/07/21 05:57 PM.

The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

Saitek X65 and X52, Glide, Winx3D, and GlovePIE Profiles http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=reticuli&CatID=miscmisc

http://library.avsim.net/register.php

X52 + Silicone Grease = JOY stick
#4567646 - 05/07/21 07:47 PM Re: Viper seems to have better stealth than comanche [Re: Hijongpark]  
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AndyB Offline
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Ayrshire, Scotland
I'm maybe getting mixed up with some of the other mods, but I seem to remember having to delete a "Default.something" texture file. If that was when adding the blackhawk, could that be causing problems ?

Just a suggestion.

Cheers,

Andy


Andy's simpit: http://www.simpit.me.uk
#4567653 - 05/07/21 08:30 PM Re: Viper seems to have better stealth than comanche [Re: AndyB]  
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Reticuli Offline
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Reticuli  Offline
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Dayton, OH, USA
Originally Posted by AndyB
I'm maybe getting mixed up with some of the other mods, but I seem to remember having to delete a "Default.something" texture file. If that was when adding the blackhawk, could that be causing problems ?

Just a suggestion.

Cheers,

Andy


Not sure. I simply uninstalled it and am reinstalling everything without the blackhawk stuff.


The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

Saitek X65 and X52, Glide, Winx3D, and GlovePIE Profiles http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=reticuli&CatID=miscmisc

http://library.avsim.net/register.php

X52 + Silicone Grease = JOY stick
#4567667 - 05/07/21 11:12 PM Re: Viper seems to have better stealth than comanche [Re: Hijongpark]  
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Reticuli Offline
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Reticuli  Offline
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Dayton, OH, USA
I reinstalled and it's doing this now

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19P2WWqw1qgoeQA1rwsaUWsSeSp-vxBSS/view?usp=sharing

Must have skipped a step.

Last edited by Reticuli; 05/07/21 11:24 PM.

The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

Saitek X65 and X52, Glide, Winx3D, and GlovePIE Profiles http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=reticuli&CatID=miscmisc

http://library.avsim.net/register.php

X52 + Silicone Grease = JOY stick
#4567688 - 05/08/21 05:55 AM Re: Viper seems to have better stealth than comanche [Re: Hijongpark]  
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Hijongpark Offline
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Hijongpark  Offline
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So what EECH community have to do is fixing bugs instead of adding something...

#4567697 - 05/08/21 10:32 AM Re: Viper seems to have better stealth than comanche [Re: Hijongpark]  
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AndyB Offline
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AndyB  Offline
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Ayrshire, Scotland
Reticuli: Looks like a problem with OpenAL sound. Did you forget to tick the box for that to be installed ?

Hijongpark: I totally agree. But, having done some coding and web page design in the past I can say that it is a nightmare trying to follow someone else's code especially if they haven't commented it well. Even with comments it is difficult. I know that Thealx has fixed a few bugs in the past so hopefully he will continue along that path.

basically we need more modders working on the game. That was one of the reasons it was so sad to see Messyhead go. Although he was working on his Blackhawk cockpit, he did a lot of small fixes in the background.

Cheers,

Andy


Andy's simpit: http://www.simpit.me.uk
#4567734 - 05/08/21 05:28 PM Re: Viper seems to have better stealth than comanche [Re: Hijongpark]  
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Reticuli Offline
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Reticuli  Offline
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Dayton, OH, USA
OpenAL is already installed on my system and I let all the installers do so again, too. I think it was because I skipped the 1.16.0 step and went strait to 1.16.1. Now I'm back to the ASSERT terrain bugs or whatever they are again... and Cuba still not working right. I even tried comparing the EECH.ini files side by side in word to make sure any lines weren't missing. I found one line missing, but it made no difference putting it back in. That's a line that's sometimes removed from the new ini.

keysite_anim_multiplier=1.0 # Animation multiplier for keysite objects (0 = off, 1.0 = fast) (def = 1.0)

It keeps deleting it from my ini, anyway.


The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

Saitek X65 and X52, Glide, Winx3D, and GlovePIE Profiles http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=reticuli&CatID=miscmisc

http://library.avsim.net/register.php

X52 + Silicone Grease = JOY stick
#4568460 - 05/14/21 10:33 PM Re: Viper seems to have better stealth than comanche [Re: Hijongpark]  
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messyhead Offline
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I noticed this line in the 1.16.0 release notes, so maybe that's done something to have an undesired effect?

Quote
New way of stealth factor calculation for helicopters


There's also this in the 1.15.2 notes

Quote

New way of stealth factor calculation (radar detection range multiplier) :
  • Closed weapons bay (Comanche only) decrease stealth factor 40%
  • Detached stub wings (Comanche and Kiowa Warrior) decrease stealth factor 35%
  • Raised landing gears (helicopters with retractable gears) decrease stealth factor 10%



The Viper code is based on the Comanche's.

Last edited by messyhead; 05/14/21 10:38 PM.
#4568491 - 05/15/21 08:19 AM Re: Viper seems to have better stealth than comanche [Re: messyhead]  
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Reticuli Offline
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Reticuli  Offline
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Dayton, OH, USA
Originally Posted by messyhead
I noticed this line in the 1.16.0 release notes, so maybe that's done something to have an undesired effect?

Quote
New way of stealth factor calculation for helicopters


There's also this in the 1.15.2 notes

Quote

New way of stealth factor calculation (radar detection range multiplier) :
  • Closed weapons bay (Comanche only) decrease stealth factor 40%
  • Detached stub wings (Comanche and Kiowa Warrior) decrease stealth factor 35%
  • Raised landing gears (helicopters with retractable gears) decrease stealth factor 10%



The Viper code is based on the Comanche's.


Weird... a mildly-LO Kiowa in the sim.

I recall seeing that new stealth stuff before. I'm wondering if perhaps this badly-worded description of the new altered LO modeling might not apply to the Viper if it is indeed based on the Comanche code. Maybe the Viper is based on the older code and the older code might have been not just simplistic but more liberal in the LO aspects of the Comanche. Could explain what Hijongpark is seeing. However, if the Viper is not only based on the Comanche but also the newer LO, then perhaps it's a glitch in how the sim 'knows' the Comanche stub wings, bay, and gear are all exposed on the Viper.

Last edited by Reticuli; 05/28/21 09:30 PM.

The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

Saitek X65 and X52, Glide, Winx3D, and GlovePIE Profiles http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=reticuli&CatID=miscmisc

http://library.avsim.net/register.php

X52 + Silicone Grease = JOY stick

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