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#4566087 - 04/26/21 01:53 PM BH&H - Second Impressions  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 231
Mike Dora Offline
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Mike Dora  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 231
USA (transplanted Scot)
After a couple of weeks of “flying” WOFF BH&H, may I magnify my complements to the devs? The more I run this sim, the clearer it is that they combine exceptional programming skills with a deep understanding of WW1 aviation. Plus a “client” (“colleague”?) orientation that puts most major companies to shame.

A few examples. The colourised loading screens look extremely realistic, they make the ac and airmen of the era look “real” - in the same way indeed as Jackson’s “They Shall Not Grow Old”. Developing and including these was an inspiration.

Meanwhile, within the sim, I’ve just “flown” my first sortie in a USAS Nieuport 28. Was frankly astounded to find that I could see daylight through the top right-hand louvres on the upper Vickers’s water-jacket, one can see right through to the front of the water-jacket where it’s cut away for air cooling. Now that is detail! I’ll be wiping the castor oil off my face next.

Finally, I find that I’m now “flying” in a state of artificial anxiety. May be assisted by fact that I’ve also adjusted my TrackIR profile so that I can “just” see my tailfin at extreme look-back (try it for real, strapped in). On my first attempts with BH&H with this new setup, but “flying” my old, more carefree style, I quite literally often did not see who shot me down.

So now I am far, far more cautious, anxiously looking around all the time. And the first time something in my plane goes clunk, twang, or ping I’m off home.

Now just think what it was really like for the very young men who did it for real..


My salute again therefore to the devs.

Just two suggestions/requests (aren’t there always).

I see that v1.05 introduces revised engine exhaust effects. May have mentioned this before, but I volunteer as ground crew at Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome (just 30 miles away), and none of our ac trail exhaust plumes when they’re flying about. This includes those like the Pup, Jenny, DVII and EV/DVIII with original engines. The only smoke I see is on start-up, especially with the rotaries. So can we please have a Workshop option to turn off the exhaust smoke?

Secondly.
Dolphin?

Cheers
Stay Well

Mike

Last edited by Mike Dora; 04/26/21 01:58 PM.
#4566099 - 04/26/21 03:09 PM Re: BH&H - Second Impressions [Re: Mike Dora]  
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,138
Polovski Offline
Polovski  Offline

Hotshot

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,138
Thanks Mike, glad you are enjoying it.

In V1.05, it's not tons of smoke, it's reasonable. If you look at "OFF_brit start Camel.wmv" in ....\WOFF\OBDWW1 Over Flanders Fields\campaigns\CampaignData\CamVids -
A real Camel actually in WW1 taking off you can clearly see smoke even as it takes off. In WW1 maybe aircraft engines were much more worn compared to Old Rhinebeck, or maybe the oil / fuel wasn't quite so great who knows, but I have also seen plenty of videos with smoke in the air from Camels in modern day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq78ZocOAkY at 2.35 you can see plenty in the air and at the end landed.


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4566159 - 04/26/21 09:27 PM Re: BH&H - Second Impressions [Re: Mike Dora]  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 936
VonS Offline
WWI Flight Sims on a Mac
VonS  Offline
WWI Flight Sims on a Mac
Member

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 936
Lower octane nos. and more impurities in the fuel (petrol) back then, also lower-burning temps. if I recall correctly from my readings of the relevant threads over on The Aerodrome website.

Octane ratings were not in place until the 1920s, but guesstimates are that octane nos. on the WW1-era fuel would have been anywhere from about the high 50s (lowest-quality fuel) to about the very low 70s (best quality fuel). The Germans by late '17/early '18 are also using benzole/benzene (not benzin/benzine, the German word for fuel and obsolete English word for naphta) - to spike up the fuel, with 40/60 or 60/40 mixtures of benzole/petrol, etc. - I think more benzole in the summer and less in the winter, as low as 20% benzole in winter. See the relevant threads on The Aerodrome for more info., particularly posts by Bletchley, Kacey, and the venerable Dan-San Abbott.

In short, more exhaust fumes on earlier fuels since lower-burning temps. and more impurities in the mixtures anyway. Even the lowest-grade, standard AvGas, of 87 octane, typical octane as late as the 1970s and 80s - runs cleaner than WW1-era aircraft fuels. Higher-octane fuels, especially 100 octane, later 114 and 120 octane, and other nos., don't show up until about the early 1930s, which brings in the age of supercharged engines, racing seaplanes, etc.

EDIT: benzene (commercial name benzol/benzole) apparently has an octane rating of between 110-115, similar numbers to those of ethanol. So, it may be possible that 40/60, 60/40 fuel/benzene mixes used sometimes in late-war German high-compression engines gave fairly high combined octane numbers, anywhere from about 85 to 95 octane, depending on the ratio of benzene used - but whether or not this would have resulted in cleaner exhaust fumes, I wouldn't know (I am assuming there would still be exhaust fumes, similar to older blends of leaded gasoline for cars, also older, leaded AvGas blends).

Cheers all and happy WW1-era exhaust fumes (with aromatic benzene),
Von S smile2

Last edited by VonS; 04/27/21 02:44 AM. Reason: Edited post.

~ For my various FM/AI/FPS/DM Mods. for First Eagles 2, WoFF, RoF & WoTR, and tips for FlightGear, recommended is to check over my CombatAce profile (https://combatace.com/profile/86760-vons/) and to click on the "About Me" tab while there. ~
#4566161 - 04/26/21 10:19 PM Re: BH&H - Second Impressions [Re: Mike Dora]  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 231
Mike Dora Offline
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Mike Dora  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 231
USA (transplanted Scot)
Gentlemen, I concede.

Watched the reference vids, and was thinking further about this during the day.

I now believe that our current Old Rhinebeck ac fly with clean exhausts for 4 reasons: higher octane fuels; cleaner fuels (cf the frequent accounts of forced landings due to blocked fuel lines); a very highly-qualified maintenance team with many years of experience on type, vs hastily-trained fitters; and also pilots with many years on type, vs the months or less of WW1 pilots (think eg of the vital importance of keeping the correct mixture as one climbed away from take-off).

Maybe I was being over-sensitive here. On the one hand, during my time in the RAF we hated refuelling our ac at NATO bases where they used the horrible dirty F-40 AVTAG instead of our nice clean F-34 AVTUR (not only caused dirty exhausts, but sometimes mandated engine changes for de-coking). On the other, I’ve been badly put off by “other” sims (not from OBD!) that had machines like Spitfires chuffing out smoke like the Grand Fleet at Jutland.

So as said, I concede.


But.

Dolphin?

Cheers
Mike

Last edited by Mike Dora; 04/26/21 10:24 PM.
#4566307 - 04/28/21 01:16 AM Re: BH&H - Second Impressions [Re: Mike Dora]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 860
OvStachel Offline
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OvStachel  Offline
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 860
Long Island, NY
Hello Mike.... sounds like the old JP4 mil spec power vs the Jet-A cleaner burn argument we have here in the states.

Commercial airlines burn Jet-A and you can see the effects on the older engines I used to work on. The RB211-535g/H's on the 747-400s would have heat signatures all over the exhaust sections, but all there was left was a brown ash. They called that clean... lol.

Then more expensive JP-4 was only mil-spec, and not used because of flammability issues. But it's a better fuel. More power to the punch, but not cost effective.

Do you work at Old Rhinebeck? I'm in Long Island... I've been there 100's of times. I missed it this year with it being shutdown for Covid. Can't wait to go again!

James
OvS


The Black Baron of Boistrancourt returns!!

I'd rather die fighting, than live for nothing. - Gen. G.S. Patton
#4566360 - 04/28/21 03:30 PM Re: BH&H - Second Impressions [Re: Mike Dora]  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 231
Mike Dora Offline
Member
Mike Dora  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 231
USA (transplanted Scot)
Yup James,

Same/similar argument, though would note here that the civilian Jet A-1 is F-35 AVTUR, we used F-34 AVTUR. According to my propulsion colleagues it was the cleaner variety.

The RAF became very sensitive to fuel quality after having to write-off a couple of Hercs very early in British service due to corrosion in the fuel tanks and lines arising from water-contaminated fuel. The big culprit there was the fungus that grows at the fuel-water interface (cladosporium resinae - I can still spell it! ..my flight sergeant called it "Gladys"..). When I was on the Herc fleet back in '78-'79, if one of our ac was to spend any length of time operating from a civilian airport we would send a special filter/additive cart with it, to bring the fuel to our standards.


And yes I have been volunteer ground crew at Old Rhinebeck since retiring to the Mid-Hudson valley in 2017 (though not last year of course). For a chap brought up on Biggles books - a few years before even "The Blue Max" came out - it's great to actually get to work with Sopwiths, SPADs, Fokkers, Albatri etc in person!

Cheers

Mike

#4566429 - 04/28/21 10:16 PM Re: BH&H - Second Impressions [Re: Mike Dora]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 860
OvStachel Offline
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OvStachel  Offline
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 860
Long Island, NY
Yes, I'm familiar with the fungus. I did a tank entry on a Classic (747-100)... I work for British Airways... back in 1996 to look around for the source of a leak in the center tank... that was the last time.. and I would NEVER do that again.

Mil spec fuel is always cleaner and better simply (as you know) because of the need for reliability and less maintenance. Airlines is all about cost... but it costs more in the end... unless it's Airbus, then you're scrapping it for new anyway... LOL.

Well... it appears you and I will meet sooner than later, LOL. I was a huge fan of the Black Baron of Rhinebeck (as my signature and Avatar should note). That's a modified picture of Cole Phalen, with my face features merged into it.

I don't mean to invite myself... but I'll let you know when I'm coming. Hahaha... see you then. Most likely I'll either be with the Red Knights (FD based MC) or a bunch of old timers from BA.

James
OvS

Last edited by OvStachel; 04/28/21 10:17 PM.

The Black Baron of Boistrancourt returns!!

I'd rather die fighting, than live for nothing. - Gen. G.S. Patton
#4566433 - 04/28/21 10:56 PM Re: BH&H - Second Impressions [Re: Mike Dora]  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 231
Mike Dora Offline
Member
Mike Dora  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 231
USA (transplanted Scot)
We must coordinate over Old Rhinebeck! When you come there, I’ll be the cheery chappy in RFC overalls with sergeant stripes. Actually ended up as a squadron leader, but consider it a great honour to represent generation upon generation of our absolutely excellent RFC/RAF NCOs.


Moderated by  Polovski 

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