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#4565805 - 04/24/21 07:46 AM Some questions for helicopoter cockpits  
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Hijongpark Offline
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1. Is there a way to set wide view mode (pressing \) as default for comanche and otehr helicopters except apache ? I don't like that pilot bodies are visible in normal view so I always enable them, I wonder is there a way to make wide view as default.

the strange things are that Apache has wide view mode as default and can't be changed, and Viper always has pilot body even in wide view mode.

2. why Apache's EO zoom is so limited ? other helis have 2.0 to 128 zoom but Apache only has low, med, zoom and the max zoom rate is a lot smaller than other's 128 zoom.

3. I found OH-58D Kiowa warrior's flight model very frustrating. the helicopter gets unstable even at 100 speed and the rudder is extremely sensitive and unstable. is it how it's suppossed to be work for kiowa or kiowa's FM is still in development ?

4. when using helicopters that don't have radars (Viper, Kiowa, blackhawk), I have to use IHADSS (only for viper) or TADS to target enemies. when I use radar for targeting I can conveniently select target by changing target priority. but when there's no radar, IHADSS has limited targeting range that I had to get close to the enemies, and TADS is very inconvenient as it keep selects unnecessary targets like allies or structures and hazard objects over enemies. Manually controlling EO camera is very slow and hard to find the enemies, by the time I lock on the enemy they already kills me.

For this reason I actively avoid using helicopters with no radar. How do yo guys use these no-radar helicopters, Are there any effective way to use IHADSS and TADS mode ?

#4565958 - 04/25/21 04:41 PM Re: Some questions for helicopoter cockpits [Re: Hijongpark]  
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The yaw, the yaw, the yaw... don't get me started on the yaw, bro. It's got acceleration ramp-up, varies drastically from helo to helo, does not have a yaw damper coded and instead requires inflated drag values, is often too high with FM 0 in the ini, and is far too muted on coaxials with FM 2 such that on coaxials you can get more yaw from the erroneously-ever-present coordinated turning doing a bank than from actually using your pedals. And that's not even getting into how if you set Crosscoupling to OFF you have to switch to FM 2 because the lift gets all screwed up in FM 0 on tail rotor helos if you plan on doing tail mixing all manually. I keep Crosscoupling ON, use FM 0, and have a yaw divider axis on a throttle rotary.

https://SimHQ.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4554183/

The Zulu Cobra Viper has its RBS happening too soon, since it can exceed 200kts in real life.
The Kiowa may have its RBS happening slightly too soon but definitely has way too much power such that it's very easy to reach its never exceed speed. Some of its analog dials are also giving wrong quantities, which complicates things if you lose the HMD.
For some reason the TADS on some aircraft like the three you listed are not detecting targets at longer range, and that's combined with an issue where it seems to lose lock frequently and you're better off locking to the ground. Heck, once you unlock then unfortunately ground stabilization doesn't seem to be working most of the time when it's set to 1 in the ini. You're right that you end up often having to rely on the helmet sight or just using a radar-equipped aircraft. This seems to be a recent issue.
The detection speed and ability of both ground and air AI is also such that, you're right, when not equipped with a radar you are at a massive disadvantage even if attempting to stay very low and concealed, even though radar use should be revealing location and increasing detection more than a low, concealed helo that's not using it.
Heck, using a Comanche with just FLIR means you can't really fire weapons with it without instantly being targeted by every enemy in the area, for some reason, without delay, without proper detection LOS and cone ground radar terrain effects. There are notes on prior releases that claim this stuff was improved, but it seems in my experience it was either broken or made worse somehow.

Oh, and you can't just call in artillery and air strikes while acting as recon to make up for those detection-of-the-enemy and enemy-detecting-you issues because tab 3 1 and tab 3 2 are busted right now.

https://SimHQ.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4551698/re-flight-model-or-where-is-it#Post4551698

Last edited by Reticuli; 04/25/21 08:39 PM.

The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

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#4566003 - 04/25/21 11:26 PM Re: Some questions for helicopoter cockpits [Re: Reticuli]  
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Hijongpark Offline
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Originally Posted by Reticuli
The yaw, the yaw, the yaw... don't get me started on the yaw, bro. It's got acceleration ramp-up, varies drastically from helo to helo, does not have a yaw damper coded and instead requires inflated drag values, is often too high with FM 0 in the ini, and is far too muted on coaxials with FM 2 such that on coaxials you can get more yaw from the erroneously-ever-present coordinated turning doing a bank than from actually using your pedals. And that's not even getting into how if you set Crosscoupling to OFF you have to switch to FM 2 because the lift gets all screwed up in FM 0 on tail rotor helos if you plan on doing tail mixing all manually. I keep Crosscoupling ON, use FM 0, and have a yaw divider axis on a throttle rotary.

https://SimHQ.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4554183/

The Zulu Cobra Viper has its RBS happening too soon, since it can exceed 200kts in real life.
The Kiowa may have its RBS happening slightly too soon but definitely has way too much power such that it's very easy to reach its never exceed speed. Some of its analog dials are also giving wrong quantities, which complicates things if you lose the HMD.
For some reason the TADS on some aircraft like the three you listed are not detecting targets at longer range, and that's combined with an issue where it seems to lose lock frequently and you're better off locking to the ground. Heck, once you unlock then unfortunately ground stabilization doesn't seem to be working most of the time when it's set to 1 in the ini. You're right that you end up often having to rely on the helmet sight or just using a radar-equipped aircraft. This seems to be a recent issue.
The detection speed and ability of both ground and air AI is also such that, you're right, when not equipped with a radar you are at a massive disadvantage even if attempting to stay very low and concealed, even though radar use should be revealing location and increasing detection more than a low, concealed helo that's not using it.
Heck, using a Comanche with just FLIR means you can't really fire weapons with it without instantly being targeted by every enemy in the area, for some reason, without delay, without proper detection LOS and cone ground radar terrain effects. There are notes on prior releases that claim this stuff was improved, but it seems in my experience it was either broken or made worse somehow.

Oh, and you can't just call in artillery and air strikes while acting as recon to make up for those detection-of-the-enemy and enemy-detecting-you issues because tab 3 1 and tab 3 2 are busted right now.

https://SimHQ.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4551698/re-flight-model-or-where-is-it#Post4551698



EECH's flight model is certainly a mess it seems.

Wouldn't it be better to merge the FM into one and improve it, instead of dividing it to 3 ?

#4566027 - 04/26/21 02:35 AM Re: Some questions for helicopoter cockpits [Re: Hijongpark]  
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Originally Posted by Hijongpark



Wouldn't it be better to merge the FM into one and improve it, instead of dividing it to 3 ?


Just a very disorganized long history of various FM mods, none of which was particularly great or without its own problems. There was the original flight model before you could even change anything in the EECH.ini. Then we got the ability to make some ini flight dynamics changes finally... not that anyone back then fully understood the implications. FM 0 became the new 'default' when FM 1 was added, which was just the original with the lateral aerodynamic streamlining removed and the coordinated turning completely removed, too. While you don't get the overwrought coordinated turning that never goes away even at low speeds, FM 1 is otherwise pretty odd and unsavory without any lateral weathervaning effect. Then someone did a FM with enhanced RPM effects (never really finished) and slightly changed lift, drag, and inertia values. Then finally all three were universally changed a little further with code that affects all three of them, while basically making it so much of the FM code is buried who knows where and the dyn files' values seem to only have a small effect. So there was no intent that I can tell for it to be as it is now. At least the suspension effects that were added work pretty well now, though FM 2's taxiing doesn't work anymore. FM 0 doesn't have 2's RPM autorotation stuff, but 2's use of that is a little quirky requiring way too much nose down to get the RPM back up and 0 is much easier to autorotate even if you don't get the RPM stuff. If you follow the algorithm of sorts I've come up with in

https://SimHQ.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4554469/re-crosscoupling-poll#Post4554469

then you'll get the best flight modeling we're currently able to get. I highly recommend you find some way of also limiting your available yaw for FM 0 as-needed, by the way. There is no single yaw divider that fits all helos in FM 0, but this method does work.

Hopefully this stuff can be integrated into the source eventually.

I personally also like to limit the available collective/torque so I only have from about 10-100% range so I can't decel too quickly or simply power out of VRS.

Last edited by Reticuli; 04/26/21 06:00 AM.

The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

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X52 + Silicone Grease = JOY stick
#4566033 - 04/26/21 04:07 AM Re: Some questions for helicopoter cockpits [Re: Reticuli]  
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Hijongpark Offline
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Hijongpark  Offline
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Originally Posted by Reticuli
Originally Posted by Hijongpark



Wouldn't it be better to merge the FM into one and improve it, instead of dividing it to 3 ?


Just a very disorganized long history of various FM mods, none of which was particularly great or without its own problems. There was the original flight model before you could even change anything in the EECH.ini. Then we got the ability to make some ini flight dynamics changes finally... not that anyone back then fully understood the implications. FM 0 became the new 'default' when FM 1 was added, which was just the original with the lateral aerodynamic streamlining removed and the coordinated turning completely removed, too. While you don't get the overwrought coordinated turning that never goes away even at low speeds, FM 1 is otherwise pretty odd and unsavory without any lateral weather-veining effect. Then someone did a FM with enhanced RPM effects (never really finished) and slightly changed lift, drag, and inertia values. Then finally all three were universally changed a little further with code that affects all three of them, while basically making it so much of the FM code is buried who knows where and the dyn files' values seem to only have a small effect. So there was no intent that I can tell for it to be as it is now. At least the suspension effects that were added work pretty well now, though FM 2's taxiing doesn't work anymore. FM 0 doesn't have 2's RPM autorotation stuff, but 2's use of that is a little quirky requiring way too much nose down to get the RPM back up and 0 is much easier to autorotate even if you don't get the RPM stuff. If you follow the algorithm of sorts I've come up with in

https://SimHQ.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4554469/re-crosscoupling-poll#Post4554469

then you'll get the best flight modeling we're currently able to get. I highly recommend you find some way of also limiting your available yaw for FM 0 as-needed, by the way. There is no single yaw divider that fits all helos in FM 0, but this method does work.

Hopefully this stuff can be integrated into the source eventually.

I personally also like to limit the available collective/torque so I only have from about 10-100% range so I can't decel too quickly or simply power out of VRS.


The problem I'm having with FM 0 and 1 is that the rotor is made of aluminum foil. Once I exceed 170 speed the main rotor get destroyed instantly and I die. It's so annoying and I don't think the real life attack helicopter's rotor would be destroyed that easily.

so I'm flying with FM 2 as this one is free from this issue.

#4566040 - 04/26/21 06:28 AM Re: Some questions for helicopoter cockpits [Re: Hijongpark]  
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Reticuli Offline
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It sounds to me like you didn't change much in the ini except maybe switch FM 0 to 2. I would only suggest using FM 2 if you're flying tail rotor helos and turning crosscoupling OFF in the in-sim Dynamics menu. And then you also have to turn Translational lift (erroneously called transitional lift) OFF, because otherwise you get negative lift with lateral airflow. I find FM 2 has some odd lift and drag characteristics and I can get FM 0 to feel more like X-Plane with the ini tweaks. The biggest benefit to FM 2 besides the fact you have to use that if you have crosscoupling OFF is that with the tail rotor helos you don't have to worry about needing a yaw divider as much, but then again the coaxial helos become basically worthless and you have to switch back to FM 0 for those. If you're doing pedal axis limiting in like your joystick or pedals config app one time for FM 0, then reducing your available yaw by half is a decent enough compromise... assuming you realize you'll have slightly slower than desirable yaw in some helos and slightly too fast in others and you need to be especially-gentle in the Hokum B. FM 1 is goofy and fake since it has zero lateral aerodynamic streamlining. The only benefit to FM 1 is that at low speed you don't have to worry about coordinated turns.

Here's my ini. Obviously you'll not be using the same exact joystick assignments as me.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tXP7UzHE4r_dbfTfqzYNDBE_rIBpzRpU/view?usp=sharing

As for the 170 speed damage to the helo, it depends on the helo. The V(NE) on the Kiowa is about 120-something KIAS, but the issue with that one here is it has too much power and you get to that maximum easily. It's just a hacked Apache A in EECH. The Viper is also just a hacked Apache A but someone put its V(NE) threshold to trigger its RBS at way down like the Kiowa when it should be above 200 KIAS.

Keeping this stuff in mind that both the Kiowa and Viper right now have V(NE) about the same at just over 120ish, you just have to be very careful on them. On all the helos, though, you'll get shaking, oscillations, and roll moments prior to ripping the rotors off.

If you don't want the rotors to rip off with overspeed as easily, then you can raise the drbs scaler in the ini. I think you can also completely disable it in the in-sim Dynamics menu. I believe TheAlx might have disabled the rotor damage with overspeed on FM 2 so that all it does is pitch and roll with Blade Stall ON and just shakes a little with it OFF. In FSX with the Dodosim 206, in X-Plane, and DCS I can overspeed and catastrophically damage the main rotor(s), so I leave it on in EECH and I don't change the drbs scaler in the ini, either. This is yet another reason for me to use FM 0. I also have shaking turned up.

Oh, and here's my GWUT if you want to try it.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n3DUCoXDh0JvFSObCKLLLtqZnI6lPRzS/view?usp=sharing

Correction: Blade Stall OFF in in-sim Dynamics menu seems to do nothing with FM 0. Yet another mod gone wrong, it looks like.

Last edited by Reticuli; 04/26/21 08:07 AM.

The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

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X52 + Silicone Grease = JOY stick
#4566044 - 04/26/21 08:05 AM Re: Some questions for helicopoter cockpits [Re: Reticuli]  
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Hijongpark Offline
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Originally Posted by Reticuli
It sounds to me like you didn't change much in the ini except maybe switch FM 0 to 2. I would only suggest using FM 2 if you're flying tail rotor helos and turning crosscoupling OFF in the in-sim Dynamics menu. And then you also have to turn Translational lift (erroneously called transitional lift) OFF, because otherwise you get negative lift with lateral airflow. I find FM 2 has some odd lift and drag characteristics and I can get FM 0 to feel more like X-Plane with the ini tweaks. The biggest benefit to FM 2 besides the fact you have to use that if you have crosscoupling OFF is that with the tail rotor helos you don't have to worry about needing a yaw divider as much, but then again the coaxial helos become basically worthless and you have to switch back to FM 0 for those. If you're doing pedal axis limiting in like your joystick or pedals config app one time for FM 0, then reducing your available yaw by half is a decent enough compromise... assuming you realize you'll have slightly slower than desirable yaw in some helos and slightly too fast in others and you need to be especially-gentle in the Hokum B. FM 1 is goofy and fake since it has zero lateral aerodynamic streamlining. The only benefit to FM 1 is that at low speed you don't have to worry about coordinated turns.

Here's my ini. Obviously you'll not be using the same exact joystick assignments as me.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tXP7UzHE4r_dbfTfqzYNDBE_rIBpzRpU/view?usp=sharing

As for the 170 speed damage to the helo, it depends on the helo. The V(NE) on the Kiowa is about 120-something KIAS, but the issue with that one here is it has too much power and you get to that maximum easily. It's just a hacked Apache A in EECH. The Viper is also just a hacked Apache A but someone put its V(NE) threshold to trigger its RBS at way down like the Kiowa when it should be above 200 KIAS.

Keeping this stuff in mind that both the Kiowa and Viper right now have V(NE) about the same at just over 120ish, you just have to be very careful on them. On all the helos, though, you'll get shaking, oscillations, and roll moments prior to ripping the rotors off.

If you don't want the rotors to rip off with overspeed as easily, then you can raise the drbs scaler in the ini. I think you can also completely disable it in the in-sim Dynamics menu. I believe TheAlx might have disabled the rotor damage with overspeed on FM 2 so that all it does is pitch and roll with Blade Stall ON and just shakes a little with it OFF. In FSX with the Dodosim 206, in X-Plane, and DCS I can overspeed and catastrophically damage the main rotor(s), so I leave it on in EECH and I don't change the drbs scaler in the ini, either. This is yet another reason for me to use FM 0. I also have shaking turned up.

Oh, and here's my GWUT if you want to try it.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n3DUCoXDh0JvFSObCKLLLtqZnI6lPRzS/view?usp=sharing



Unfortunately changing drbs value doesn't has any effect. in both 0 and 100 value the rotor always destroyed in around 180 speed.

Is there a way to change the V and rotor damage speed value for helicopters ? I want to increase them if possible.

#4566109 - 04/26/21 05:11 PM Re: Some questions for helicopoter cockpits [Re: Hijongpark]  
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Reticuli Offline
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The ini value drbs doesn't even have an effect with FM 0 if you put it at 1.5 or 2? I could have swore in a rather recent update that could still be used to shift the threshold universally slightly. If it wasn't that value, I wonder which value I was messing with... or maybe I was just changing the lift and drag values and changing how easy it was to get to the RBS threshold.

I think we're still looking for where the V(NE) or RBS thresholds for each of the helos is located. This stuff previously was just pulled from the dyn files, but now very few of the values in the dyn files are used and this stuff seems hard coded and not even in the main body of the source code anymore... like a lot of stuff in 1.16.2 now. I did recently locate where the gun rounds quantities are located, at least.

Anyway, if you're flying tail rotor helos and want rotor overspeed damage then use FM 0, and if you don't want the main rotor(s) ripping off then use FM 2, I guess. If you're doing coaxials, you're stuck with FM 0 and potential damage and the need to at least halve the yaw somehow. If you want crosscoupling OFF, it looks like you'll also be forced to give up rotor overspeed damage.

Last edited by Reticuli; 04/26/21 05:16 PM.

The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

Saitek X65 and X52, Glide, Winx3D, and GlovePIE Profiles http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=reticuli&CatID=miscmisc

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#4566116 - 04/26/21 05:34 PM Re: Some questions for helicopoter cockpits [Re: Hijongpark]  
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Reticuli Offline
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So it looks like in FM 2 with Blade Stall OFF all you get is some shaking and side-to-side oscillations... it becomes unstable. With it ON you also get some hard pitch and roll moments that further serves to sort of get you out of the nose-down state that's causing the overspeed, but if you persist in forcing it you'll eventually do something like roll inverted and probably eventually crash uncontrollably.

Another issue I'm noticing with the Kiowa (and I presume the Viper would have this issue right now) is that with FM 2, ETL OFF (to turn it on in FM 2), and Crosscoupling OFF, the torque rotational effects from the main rotor with varying collective states still thinks you've got a high top speed with all that extra power, meaning you either need yaw also as a trim axis on a throttle rotary or you need to always be using some pedal even when going 100KIAS.

Last edited by Reticuli; 04/26/21 06:41 PM.

The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

Saitek X65 and X52, Glide, Winx3D, and GlovePIE Profiles http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=reticuli&CatID=miscmisc

http://library.avsim.net/register.php

X52 + Silicone Grease = JOY stick
#4566137 - 04/26/21 06:44 PM Re: Some questions for helicopoter cockpits [Re: Hijongpark]  
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Originally Posted by Hijongpark
2. why Apache's EO zoom is so limited ? other helis have 2.0 to 128 zoom but Apache only has low, med, zoom and the max zoom rate is a lot smaller than other's 128 zoom.

4. when using helicopters that don't have radars (Viper, Kiowa, blackhawk), I have to use IHADSS (only for viper) or TADS to target enemies. when I use radar for targeting I can conveniently select target by changing target priority. but when there's no radar, IHADSS has limited targeting range that I had to get close to the enemies, and TADS is very inconvenient as it keep selects unnecessary targets like allies or structures and hazard objects over enemies. Manually controlling EO camera is very slow and hard to find the enemies, by the time I lock on the enemy they already kills me.

For this reason I actively avoid using helicopters with no radar. How do yo guys use these no-radar helicopters, Are there any effective way to use IHADSS and TADS mode ?



2. Apache still uses old code for the FLIR/DTV which only has 3 zoom levels. There is new code that more recent cockpits use that have more zoom levels. I could change the Apache to have the new code, but it would need tested before it was put into a release package.

4. This is expected. Using visual methods of targeting instead of radar, you have to get within visual range. This is part of the game, and you need to find cover to hide your helo behind, then pop up to fire your weapons and hide again before being seen. Use buildings, river banks, trees etc to conceal yourself.

#4566209 - 04/27/21 04:38 AM Re: Some questions for helicopoter cockpits [Re: messyhead]  
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Originally Posted by messyhead
Originally Posted by Hijongpark
2. why Apache's EO zoom is so limited ? other helis have 2.0 to 128 zoom but Apache only has low, med, zoom and the max zoom rate is a lot smaller than other's 128 zoom.

4. when using helicopters that don't have radars (Viper, Kiowa, blackhawk), I have to use IHADSS (only for viper) or TADS to target enemies. when I use radar for targeting I can conveniently select target by changing target priority. but when there's no radar, IHADSS has limited targeting range that I had to get close to the enemies, and TADS is very inconvenient as it keep selects unnecessary targets like allies or structures and hazard objects over enemies. Manually controlling EO camera is very slow and hard to find the enemies, by the time I lock on the enemy they already kills me.

For this reason I actively avoid using helicopters with no radar. How do yo guys use these no-radar helicopters, Are there any effective way to use IHADSS and TADS mode ?



2. Apache still uses old code for the FLIR/DTV which only has 3 zoom levels. There is new code that more recent cockpits use that have more zoom levels. I could change the Apache to have the new code, but it would need tested before it was put into a release package.

4. This is expected. Using visual methods of targeting instead of radar, you have to get within visual range. This is part of the game, and you need to find cover to hide your helo behind, then pop up to fire your weapons and hide again before being seen. Use buildings, river banks, trees etc to conceal yourself.


I can deal with FM issues as I don't fly russian helicopters which have inferior equipment, clunky cockpit, ugly appearance and kiowas can be replaced with comanche, but hope Apache's EO zoom to be fixed in the future patch.

The most fun thing of attack helicopters is watching my targets getting destroyed from MFD screen.

Last edited by Hijongpark; 04/27/21 04:41 AM.
#4566217 - 04/27/21 07:46 AM Re: Some questions for helicopoter cockpits [Re: Hijongpark]  

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wow, the first man to write this. smile i also love flir view in every sim and from what i can see on yt, hardly anyone is using it correctly, or not using at all. amateurs rolleyes

#4566218 - 04/27/21 08:05 AM Re: Some questions for helicopoter cockpits [Re: Hijongpark]  
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messyhead Offline
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Originally Posted by Hijongpark
I can deal with FM issues as I don't fly russian helicopters which have inferior equipment, clunky cockpit, ugly appearance and kiowas can be replaced with comanche, but hope Apache's EO zoom to be fixed in the future patch.

The most fun thing of attack helicopters is watching my targets getting destroyed from MFD screen.


I quite like the Russian ones, they're like flying tanks.


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