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#4565435 - 04/21/21 03:11 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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Oh no, that was quick. I'm not done with 6, I like it. I just need to have the AI put up a better fight but without needing to raise the difficulty so high that they get the crazy bonuses like they do on Immortal. Emperor is fine, but Immortal is a big step up from there. +60% gold, three starting settlers, three warriors and +24% science and culture are difficult to overcome, and make the game not much fun for me. Too much struggle unless I game the start and stack the deck.

And the soon to be released Civ 6 rebalance update is something I am looking forward to.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
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#4565449 - 04/21/21 05:17 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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I think it's more me than anything else, I'm in one of those "can't quite figure out what game I want to play" moods right now.


Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.
This is known as "bad luck.”
-Robert Heinlein
#4565546 - 04/22/21 12:25 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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Been there smile

But at the mo I am not, as I am having a good time with the Civ games. There was a dev live stream yesterday, and I read a thread of comments about what was in it, and it reveals many of the rebalance changes coming to Civ 6. Nothing drastic, minor changes really. Here's a good thread detailing the changes

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/april-2021-update-patch-notes-discussion.669526/

Played more of my Civ 5 Persia run. Persia gets golden ages that last 50% longer. These can be triggered by accrued excess happiness or by expending a great artist. I recruited a couple, saved them, and waited for happiness to trigger one. Golden ages are 10 turns, and 15 with the bonus ability. When it ends I can fire a great artist and extend it another 15, and then the third again for 45 turns in all, and that's if another great artist doesn't pop in the meantime, which it probably will.

During a golden age all Persian units gain +1 movement and +10% combat strength. I waited until all this was aligned and then declared war on America with Mongolia agreeing to join and hitting them from the opposite direction. One of my complaints about Civ 6 was poor military performance out of the AI, and I revisited Civ 5 to see if it was better, as I remembered it. And it is. America has a large army and they use it aggressively. Even during peace time if you move units near their border, the following turn they have moved some of theirs opposite to oppose any incursion. Stronger, more alert, and more aggressive than anything I saw in Civ 6. Catherine (Russia) had warned me that Washington (America) was plotting against me. So I decided to see if I could beat him to the punch.

When we declared war they immediately swept in to my lands, pillaging all of my tiles near our border. I expected this and have staged workers behind my lines to repair them once we counterattack. But i want to sit defensively, soak it up, reduce their standing army while sitting in my lands, and then launch the counterattack once their army has been knocked down a couple pegs. We are essentially on the same techs, though I have cannon while they are still on trebuchets, so this should be a good battle.

So while Civ 6 has a lot going for it, many new and interesting layers, the simple fact is the AI is a better adversary in Civ 5 based on what I have seen. For peaceful players it's something that may not even register. But for those of us who like to mix in some conflict, Civ 5 is more polished in regards to how the AI handles their military. I should add that I have all expansions and DLC for both games. Things may play differently for someone who does not.

Originally Posted by BuckeyeBob
II'll be interested in hearing your takes on warfare and diplomacy.


I've touched on some of my thoughts on warfare, with Civ 5 better in my view. But diplomacy is not really a thing in these games. Sure, it's there, but it is very barebones, and mostly inconsequential. Compared to something like say EU IV, it is a joke. My concerns are more in line with how diplomatic victory works. It's better in 5 in my view, but I ignore this most of the time, unless I happen to play a Civ particularly well suited to it. Many games I simply disable that victory type while leaving all others in play


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4565682 - 04/23/21 11:26 AM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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A couple of shots

The front is aflame as the glorious Persian army launches a counteroffensive and takes New York. with Washington and Boston to follow with Boston falling to only ships. Philadelphia would be demanded in the peace deal and made a puppet state.


[Linked Image]



I mentioned the workers staged for repair work after the battle swept past. Here, seven workers do their duty fixing the pillage damage done by both sides. All but one of the workers were gained by capturing them, with the one coming from a social policy. I've built none.


[Linked Image]

Attached Files workerarmy.jpgfrontaflame.jpg

No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4565761 - 04/24/21 12:02 AM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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Very nice. I like the captured workers thing too! I have to say, looking at the screenshots, I do prefer the Civ 5 aesthetic over 6.


Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.
This is known as "bad luck.”
-Robert Heinlein
#4565821 - 04/24/21 12:21 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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I sort of do, and then again I don't. Civ 6 is a better looking game in a lot of ways, but I also like the more natural look of Civ 5. I'll call that a draw. Maybe give the edge to 5 simply because it does not have the persistent parchment fog like 6 does.

I killed off America. I hadn't planned to do so, but when aluminum was revealed on the map I had none, and their capital had two. So, like many of my wars, this one was driven by strategic resources considerations. I'm leading the score chart now, but somehow Germany has been able to just outpace me on the tech tree. I think they are generating great scientists, since I've only gotten one, and are using them to pump science and keep out ahead. I doubt they are generating more per turn than I am.

I'm nearly 500 turns in (epic speed) and still haven't chosen a victory path. Culture, science and domination are all still in play. I was able to play the city-state game, increase my delegates, and steal world congress host from Germany. That gave me enough to pass mine as world religion. I chose Order ideology. Germany chose Freedom and Russia chose Autocracy, so the three leading nations all have opposing ideologies which should make the late game interesting, and make culture victory harder for all. Aside from America, the other civs are Mongolia and Korea, both of whom have really struggled, but remain alive. Genghis has been a good friend and ally, but he is the weakest remaining.

This has been a fun run, I like Civ 5 a lot, and in certain ways I prefer it over Civ 6. The Civ 6 patch dropped yesterday, so when I am done with this run I want to have another go in 6 and check out some of the changes.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4565840 - 04/24/21 03:28 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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I'll be interested in hearing your thoughts when you do.


Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.
This is known as "bad luck.”
-Robert Heinlein
#4566075 - 04/26/21 12:31 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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I finished the Civ 5 Persia run. Won a culture victory on turn 665! Good grief. But it was fun, in large part due to the fact the AI builds a military, if they can. Germany was my main rival, and when it was time to go to war with them in the late game I found in addition to a strong land force, they had built a navy, and protecting their capital from seaborne assaults were three battleships, two carriers (with aircraft), five destroyers and a couple of frigates. I have yet to see anything like that in Civ 6.

Got a bunch of achievements on the win, including one for having won victories on every standard map type and size. I had wondered earlier how it tracks progress on long-running achievements. I didn't get any of the "1000 of" type, but I did get one for finding 100 natural wonders, which goes back several years. So the upshot is that however it is tracked, it's not done locally, as I am on a new box.

Persia's a strong civ, the longer golden ages are powerful if you can pop some great artists. At one point I had four saved up and used them consecutively after a happiness-triggered golden age. In all I was in that golden age for about 78 straight turns. That's a powerful boost that propelled me to the win.

Now I've begun a new run in Civ 6 as Victoria's England. Victoria gets some good abilities mostly centered around ships and her special dockyards, production and having cities on different continents. This is a huge island plates map at standard speed on King with Monopolies and Corporations mode on. I prefer epic speed in many ways, but I didn't want another 600-turn game lol. Diplo victory is disabled. The only new thing from the update that I've noticed is the scout can now pet the dog.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4566241 - 04/27/21 02:52 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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Quote
The only new thing from the update that I've noticed is the scout can now pet the dog.

I hope that's not a euphemism!


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4566343 - 04/28/21 01:00 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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Thankfully, in this case, it is a literal phrase biggrin

There's now a button you can hit and the scout pets his scout dog. Groundbreaking, really, and the core of the update haha.

Having moved back to Civ 6 from the Civ 5 runs, I think I'd have to sum it up thusly.... Civ 6 is the better game. It's more robust, fleshed out, looks better, has much more depth in layers, and has a number of QoL improvements that enhance the experience. But it is let down by the AI. The AI in Civ 6 does a good job for the most part with city building and empire expansion, and it is very competitive on things like suzerainty, religion and wonders. But, at least at King and Emperor, it fails to present a reasonable challenge in terms of hostile aggression and warfare.

It was strikingly obvious while playing Civ 5, how the AI went to war, and took cities, killed other civs, maintained a standing army (and navy). I get very little of this in Civ 6. I still have yet to have war declared on me by anyone. And that's no good.



No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4566574 - 04/30/21 01:54 AM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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Although I rarely play warmonger mode, that would seem to be a serious problem.


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4566669 - 04/30/21 01:27 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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I think that's the thing. For any sort of pacifist or isolationist run, this issue is not one. In those cases it doesn't matter much. But for those of us who want to partake in a bit of aggression, or even just want the threat of being attacked, a competent war AI is necessary. And here, it's not so much how the AI controls its units, it's a matter of composition, and recruitment. The AI does fine with what it has, but it doesn't have enough to make an appreciable difference.

Case in point.... I'm 300 turns in to the England run and I decided to invade my closest rival, Maya. They were strong, a big empire, with high culture and leading the culture victory race. So I reasoned an invasion would do nicely. I would take some of her cities, and pillage their important tiles. When I declared I saw a fairly strong army, at least seven or eight units moving toward the front. But at least half had been levied from a city-state. I dealt with this initial wave and for the rest of the war, which went on a long time, I only had to deal with a single AT unit every few turns as the AI built another one to feed in to the grinder. Her cities fell one by one until I had taken about five. Encampment districts and the city defense itself is fairly formidable, but without a standing army, the AI is easily outmaneuvered. This is better in Civ 5.

I had noticed there was an achievement for winning a domination victory on a huge island plates map, and when I started this run, that was the shadowy goal. But I'm now 300 turns in and have taken only Maya's capital, and the thought of six more wars is a bit much. By this stage I have so much going on in this vast realm that the micro, if it can be called that, is too much to see through to the end. So science or culture is more likely. Ironically, I had disabled diplo victory, and could have won that easily.

England's abilities encourage settling on different continents, which I've done, and the realm is sprawling. I enjoy this sort of stuff, but managing it all while also prosecuting multiple wars is taxing.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4567473 - 05/06/21 02:11 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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In the end it was a culture victory for the England run. Not much trouble really, as things begin to snowball near the end. Victoria's England is strong. Great production bonuses. Once I had power to my cities it was game over. I would have gone for domination, but on the huge map it was too much.

I then did a run as (Bull Moose) Teddy. Intended it to be a diplomatic victory, but the AI kept voting to subtract -2 diplo points from me every world congress and I finally said screw that and won another cultural victory on Emperor on a fractal map. I don't mind their ability to vote for that reduction, but having it come up again and again in the WC was a bit ridiculous. Diplo points are limited, and to keep having them taken away was frustrating.

Then I started an Immortal run as Genghis Khan. Immortal is the second highest difficulty. The AI gets some insane bonuses. To give me a shot at it I set it up as a duel map (just two of us) with three city states and turned off all victory types aside from domination. All I would need to do to win is capture their capital. I played great, and had a lot of fun with the barbarian rushes. I got the only religion, but that's because Kongo was the other civ, and they can get no religion.

But the lead the AI got was unbelievable. They were so far out in front technologically it was funny. They were researching computers while I was researching steam power lol. If they had declared war it would have been my frigates against their battleships, my cavalry against their tanks, my bombards against their artillery., and my prayers against their aircraft. I think I could still have won it once I was also near the end of the tree and things would even out. After all I only needed to capture a single city. But I shelved it when I got no oil, and need a better plan haha. I expected them to outpace me, but not by that much.



No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4567737 - 05/08/21 06:21 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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I gamed the game a bit, but got my Religious victory. I started a new duel run as Scythia this time, and selected Kongo as the other civ. Since Kongo cannot have a religion it was easy to get one myself, then send some missionaries and apostles to convert him and boom, done and dusted inside 200 turns.

Got achievements for winning on a tiny map, for winning on Immortal difficulty and several more, including religious victory and winning while in a dark age haha.

Scythia is a good civ. They get double copies of cav units, which also applies to helos. Build one, get two. Strong. They also have +30 HP heal-on-kill, which is borderline OP now that I've tried it. And they get +5 combat strength against wounded units. These are really good in practice, with the damage you take being healed right up and no delay, or need to rotate the units in the line.

Very early I faced the barb rush you get on Immortal. Wave after wave came for my capital, which had a single warrior and a single slinger defending. The slinger was in the town, and the warrior on hills adjacent. The barbs had to attack across a river and just melted against my meager defense. They kept attacking the warrior, which would kill them eventually, heal up and be ready the next turn to do it again. With any other civ these units would have been too few, as the warrior would die if not pulled off the line to heal for a few turns. But as Scythia I could just sit back and watch as the barbs threw themselves again my meager defenses.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4568169 - 05/12/21 01:11 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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Another run done and dusted, this one as France with Eleanor of Aquitaine on a standard pangea map @ emperor. This one was a lot of fun, never fired a shot and ended up with over 20 cities and won a culture victory on turn 291. Eleanor has a cool leader ability where great works each cause -1 loyalty to foreign cities within 9 hexes. And when a city loses all loyalty it flips to France, skipping the free city phase. In all, about 10 cities flipped to me, including two city states. So my empire essentially doubled in size (although most of these cities were on the small side) without any wars or conquest. That's the way to do it!

This run was also my best start. I had put down ten cites by turn 150, when usually I'd be happy to have 5 by that point. This was possible because I changed up my early routine. Normally I install Pingala as governor in my capital. His ability to boost science and culture yields is strong and really helps in the early game as you try to get through key techs and civics. But this time I went with Magnus and used his chopping boost to chop out settlers much faster and get the cities planted. I then sent him on a chopping tour, moving him to newly settled cities to keep it going. His default ability is to give +50% yields from chopping woods and rainforest. This is a big boost to whatever is in the production queue, and allowed me to get settlers out quickly. A favorable map with little early AI encroachment helped too.

Eleanor's late-game culture production is very strong. One of the strongest civs I've played yet.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4568180 - 05/12/21 02:57 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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That's an interesting ability for sure. Hard to believe you took that many cities with no wars - I usually have to conquer most of the map to get that many!
I'm curious as to how the late game turn speed is (waiting for AI turns) - does it get really long between your turns?


Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.
This is known as "bad luck.”
-Robert Heinlein
#4568187 - 05/12/21 04:10 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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It takes a while to get the flip set up, you need the great works, and have the places to display them within the 9-tile radius. But once that is flowing the cities begin to fall one by one. If any of those cities have spots for great works already then it speeds it all up. This is a fun ability to play around with. I would hate to lose my cities this way haha.

Late game turns go very quickly. Maybe 20 seconds? Nothing at all. The thing is that the AI doesn't seem to build aircraft. That was what slowed down the late-game Civ 5 turns, the animations for the aircraft missions. In Civ 6, without any of that, it goes very fast. Unit travel animations are MUCH slower in Civ 6, as my recent return to 5 showed, but it has little effect on AI turn speed. Most of the map is in fog, so the animations there don't play. So the more 'visibility' you have the slower it could potentially be.

But in practice it is very fast. The only slow thing about this game is the initial load, the rest goes along fine.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4568230 - 05/13/21 12:54 AM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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Interesting...I'd have guessed it would be a bit laggy in the late game.


Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.
This is known as "bad luck.”
-Robert Heinlein
#4568561 - 05/15/21 07:49 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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Finally burned out on Civ 6 after 327 hours and many runs as various civs. Great game, really enjoy it. I started a game as Sweden to try a diplo victory, which is the only one I have yet to get, and after 100 turns I lost motivation. As Aerosmith once said, my get up and go got up and went.

I've not see it mentioned here yet, but there is a possible challenger in the pipeline, a game called Humankind, which is slated for an August release. It could be the Civ killer or maybe not, depending on who is talking. But to me it looks good with massive potential. We will have to wait to see if it lives up to it.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1124300/HUMANKIND/


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4568592 - 05/16/21 01:16 AM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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Yes, I've heard of Humankind, it is supposed to be a challenger to Civ. We'll see, but I'll be keeping an eye on it!


Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.
This is known as "bad luck.”
-Robert Heinlein
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