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#4564288 - 04/14/21 07:57 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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I'm going to need to establish some cities off-continent for oil, I don't have much on my home turf, so yet another reason why Ghandi must fall!


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#4564379 - 04/15/21 01:18 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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Oil is key. In this Ethiopia run I had none in my vast realm, so had to establish two tundra cities. They have virtually nothing else of note aside from a few oil wells. Probably won't even hit 5 pop, but the oil flows and that is key. There's a spot in the tech tree where virtually the entire military takes a huge jump. It's right where refining and steel are. You get battleships, submarines, infantry, tanks, bombers, fighters, artillery, oil and aluminum all real close together. I also founded a city smack in the desert, since it has four aluminum tiles (and I was able to build a national park there with a natural wonder in it, boosted again by Eiffel Tower). These cities would be a burden in the early game, but at this stage these strategic resource outposts are a massive boost.

So it was I waited until all of this came online and then launched a war against Pericles, which Canada would join from an Emergency shortly after. Everything was staged and ready to roll in formation and we easily took Rhodes (6 pop) and Sparta (15 pop). Neither city had walls! I sent a bomber over and it's attack alone nearly wiped out the city. Observation balloons are also key, to keep the artillery out of range of the city defenses. Drones are even better since they add to the attack plus the range.

If I had a criticism of the game it's that the AI doesn't seem war minded. They don't seem to build much of a standing army, instead relying on levying city states. Greece had more great generals than units. Never before have so few been commanded by so many haha. Their capital has renaissance walls so will take more pummeling, but they have little else to defend themselves aside from the encampment districts they like to build in every city and the few units they have drafted from Venice.

This varies a bit by civ it seems, because I can see that the Aztecs at least have a reasonable standing army. The combat is fun in this game. It has sort of a XCom vibe to it, and I wish that the AI did more to build a strong army and put up a better fight. They do well with city building, although they do a poor job of improving their resource tiles. Greece was the leading nation in the game by the score chart (until I took those two cities which flipped it. Sparta was shining, full of districts, wonders and great works), and I'd expect the top dog would play like one. The AI did a better job with their military in Civ 5. I was happy to see that they had built two aerodromes on the front lines prior to our war. I looked forward to some air combat. But they have no aircraft evidently, and I got two forward air bases out of the deal.

I've started construction of the spaceport. It's like 2700 production, so takes a long time, 25 turns in the city I planned for it. Of course I am on epic speed which plays a part in this. I like epic game speed. My units are relevant longer and that's one of things I wanted. Epic speed is 50% slower and I like how it feels. I will stick to this one. This means games take more turns, but I felt like things were progressing too quickly at standard. Epic works better for me.


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#4564445 - 04/15/21 06:11 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond
Oil is key. In this Ethiopia run I had none in my vast realm, so had to establish two tundra cities. They have virtually nothing else of note aside from a few oil wells. Probably won't even hit 5 pop, but the oil flows and that is key. There's a spot in the tech tree where virtually the entire military takes a huge jump. It's right where refining and steel are. You get battleships, submarines, infantry, tanks, bombers, fighters, artillery, oil and aluminum all real close together. I also founded a city smack in the desert, since it has four aluminum tiles (and I was able to build a national park there with a natural wonder in it, boosted again by Eiffel Tower). These cities would be a burden in the early game, but at this stage these strategic resource outposts are a massive boost.


I've come to the same conclusion - I have a tundra city whose only function will be to provide me with oil. I have a 3 oil tile on my continent. One is conveniently located at the outer ring of my capital, one is in the tundra, and one is on the tile next to the one in my capital. Unfortunately is it just close enough to 2 other city states that the game won't let me plant a settler there. Very annoyed by this. So my settler is going to sit tight until aluminum and/or uranium are revealed and I will drop an outpost city to provide me with

Quote

So it was I waited until all of this came online and then launched a war against Pericles, which Canada would join from an Emergency shortly after. Everything was staged and ready to roll in formation and we easily took Rhodes (6 pop) and Sparta (15 pop). Neither city had walls! I sent a bomber over and it's attack alone nearly wiped out the city. Observation balloons are also key, to keep the artillery out of range of the city defenses. Drones are even better since they add to the attack plus the range.


I was wondering about the utility of the balloons. The extra range does seem nice though, and being out of range of the city attack is a big plus.

Quote

This varies a bit by civ it seems, because I can see that the Aztecs at least have a reasonable standing army. The combat is fun in this game. It has sort of a XCom vibe to it, and I wish that the AI did more to build a strong army and put up a better fight. They do well with city building, although they do a poor job of improving their resource tiles. Greece was the leading nation in the game by the score chart (until I took those two cities which flipped it. Sparta was shining, full of districts, wonders and great works), and I'd expect the top dog would play like one. The AI did a better job with their military in Civ 5. I was happy to see that they had built two aerodromes on the front lines prior to our war. I looked forward to some air combat. But they have no aircraft evidently, and I got two forward air bases out of the deal.


I was able to build aerodromes long before I was able to build planes. It made me chuckle - some guy figures "Hey - lets put a big strip of asphalt on the ground and some huge storage structures. We'll figure out what's gonna use them later!"

Quote

I've started construction of the spaceport. It's like 2700 production, so takes a long time, 25 turns in the city I planned for it. Of course I am on epic speed which plays a part in this. I like epic game speed. My units are relevant longer and that's one of things I wanted. Epic speed is 50% slower and I like how it feels. I will stick to this one. This means games take more turns, but I felt like things were progressing too quickly at standard. Epic works better for me.


Cool! I'm getting closer to that point as well. Ghandi slipped a country in his religious dominance - from 4/7 to 3/7. So good for me. I'm still figuring on pounding him. The plan is to build up the military as the oil builds up. I've got a bunch of units I can upgrade, so I'll do that (with a policy discounting it) and jump on him before he can react. The northwest corner of his continent is only a hex or two away from the southeast corner of mine, and we've both got cities sitting there. I'm massing my troops in preparation, just waiting for the oil!

Interesting point on Epic, there are times I've felt the same - like the game is progressing faster than its earlier incarnations. Maybe epic would be a better pace for me as well. I'll give it a shot on a future playthrough.

Oh and I picked up the New Frontier Pass as well. I found it on sale at Indie Gala for $25, which was cheaper than Steam's last sale (gotta love isthereanydeal.com!) so I figured what the heck and grabbed it. It hasn't effected this game, so I'll what's what on the next one.


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#4564457 - 04/15/21 07:24 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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Nice work, I paid $40 for the NFP. But it adds a bunch of civs, new game modes and a lot more. Worth it.

Yeah, give epic a go on one of your runs and see if you prefer it. I like the effect it has had on my progression. In the end I bet it adds 150 turns or so to my wins, but it feels better as I progress.

Good news about Ghandi's grasp slipping. Now teach him the error of his passive-aggressive ways.

With this run on Emperor I was a little worried early as I seemed so far behind. But I passed all the civs one by one aside from Pericles (Greece) For centuries we maintained the same distance, about 80 points on the score chart, but when I took two more of his cities I emerged as top dog. Once I take his capital his game should be over. He is going for culture victory and losing these cities, with all of their wonders and great works will kill his chances I reckon. And I love having the AI build a wonder, and then I take it. You don't get the on-completion bonuses, but the other constant bonuses apply. He built the Great Library but it has a new owner, and that's a significant shift. Pericles was the only civ within hailing distance of me scientifically and this will put paid to that.

I feel like this is the right difficulty for me, but I would like to somehow make the AI civs have more troops. But as far as the race to victory it's in a good spot. The AI gets a nice head start, which they need, and I need to play catch-up for most of the game.

I had taken two of his cities in that emergency war early on, including Khmer's capital, which is now my space port city. Now it's just a matter of seeing it through, but I'll keep the pressure on his remaining cities until I feel we have taken enough. He's so smug and constantly pops up to insult me or threaten me, so he's got it coming I'd say. He once said that it was nice that I am not strong enough to be a threat to him. Look at you now!


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#4564571 - 04/16/21 12:17 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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Turns take longer as they tick by, more stuff to do, more units to order around. The first 50 turns go by in an hour. Later, an hour is 10 turns, and so it seemed to take forever and a day for the space port to finish. But it finally did and I started the satellite project. Only Greece has even researched rocketry, and they have been smashed to bits by our war, and if they tried to build a space port in one of their three remaining small cites it would take 50 turns probably, so I am way out in front now. I had disabled diplo victory, Greece was the only threat culturally, no one else has taken any capitals, and I'm at 3/5 religiously (the 6th civ Khmer is dead) which defends against that. This one's in the bag, just got to run through the required projects and land on Mars.

We have had the first sea level rise and I am scrambling to construct coastal barriers everywhere to prevent losing too much land. I'm converting to nuclear power now so the pace of the warming should slow, depending on what the AI civs now build. This is good too because it frees that oil for units. I have gobs of aluminum and can build plenty of units using it, a big air fleet. I built another outpost city for uranium and have two copies so far to power my cities. I've never used a nuke in Civ.

Keep an eye out for the great engineer John D Rockefeller (modern era). He grants three oil per turn, plus! grants +2 gold per turn to every trade route per improved strategic resource at the destination city. He is worth going for.


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#4564810 - 04/17/21 01:51 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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I wasn't kidding. Played for several hours last night and got my satellite launched, and then started on the moon landing project which is yet to finish. Epic is a great pace except when the game's mostly done and dusted and you need to get through the space race projects to achieve victory lol. I might just do a different one here, maybe just go domination. After the moon landing there is the mars landing to do, then the exoplanet expedition, which must be built and then sent to mars one light year per turn. It's 50 turns to get there at standard, so 75 on epic, although you can run projects to speed it up. Not sure I want this to go another 100+ turns. I think I could capture the other three capitals a bit sooner. What to do...


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#4564834 - 04/17/21 04:04 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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That's a bit downside to Epic, I may just get used to faster progress earlier on. I haven't touched the game in a couple of days, I'll have to jump back in and see where I'm at.


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#4565042 - 04/18/21 06:24 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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In the end it wasn't bad. I had good production to start with in the spaceport city. And once you reach the end of the tech tree you can repeatedly research future tech, and each time it finishes it grants +5% production to all your cities. This stacks up fast. Plus there are projects you can run to increase the speed of the exoplanet expedition, and I got a great scientist and engineer who each contributed to space projects. So while the last stage was 75 turns by default I bet it was closer to 25 turns in reality.

Here are the numbers I was generating a turn or two before the end. Nicely balanced between culture and science, and nearly that much in faith. Posting it mainly for comparisons with future runs so I have a baseline. Ethiopia is a solid choice for any type of victory. They can generate massive faith, but that is converted to science and culture, and with the right buildings it can be converted to land units. My start felt slow, but once I DoW'd Greece and cut him up it was a snowball run from there. The AI plays some parts of the game well, and some quite poorly. I'd like to see more out of the AI opponents.

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#4565126 - 04/19/21 09:37 AM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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Congrats on the win! You really had the science and culture cranking out at the end!


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#4565139 - 04/19/21 12:13 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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I haven't played enough to know what heights can be hit with science and culture, but those numbers are the highest yet for me But it's also on epic, and you can see around turn 450. Like most good runs it snowballed after a certain point, and I pulled increasingly further ahead as the turns ticked by. Montezuma did manage to get his satellite up, but that was as close as any other civ came to winning.

I reinstalled Civ 5. Haven't played since 2018, but while playing Civ 6 I keep thinking that the wars were a lot better in civ 5. I can recall air battles, fun naval warfare and massed lines of troops on both sides battling it out. That's the one thing I feel I am not getting with Civ 6, so I plan to start another run in Civ 5 to see. With 6 so fresh it will be interesting to compare.


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#4565191 - 04/19/21 07:34 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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Nice win! I will be interested to hear your comparison of V and VI.

#4565198 - 04/19/21 08:07 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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I will be sure to do so. I plan to start one tonight, if I can actually pick which setup and civ I want to play. It's not as easy as it may appear at first glance lol.

Always with an eye toward achievements it will need to be one I have not completed a game with yet.

I have a question and not sure you guys will know the answer, but there are achievements in Civ 5 for having 1000 of something through 'any number of playthroughs'. For example chop 1000 trees, or kill 1000 units, or whatever. What I am wondering is, if I uninstalled the game have I broken the running total? If it's stored locally then surely I have. If somehow Steam tracks it then I'm good. No idea how it works, but looking for this answer.


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#4565204 - 04/19/21 08:58 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond
I haven't played enough to know what heights can be hit with science and culture, but those numbers are the highest yet for me But it's also on epic, and you can see around turn 450. Like most good runs it snowballed after a certain point, and I pulled increasingly further ahead as the turns ticked by. Montezuma did manage to get his satellite up, but that was as close as any other civ came to winning.

I reinstalled Civ 5. Haven't played since 2018, but while playing Civ 6 I keep thinking that the wars were a lot better in civ 5. I can recall air battles, fun naval warfare and massed lines of troops on both sides battling it out. That's the one thing I feel I am not getting with Civ 6, so I plan to start another run in Civ 5 to see. With 6 so fresh it will be interesting to compare.


I will also be very interested in how you feel about 5 vs 6! There's something I can't put my finger on that doesn't quite work for me in 6, though it's been so long since I've played 5 maybe I'm glamorizing it.


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#4565270 - 04/20/21 12:55 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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It's just like I remembered, but had forgotten biggrin

I played 200+ turns of a Civ 5 run as Arabia. There are many differences between the two games, and I'll talk about a couple of them. The most striking to me is the way Civ 5 handles wide vs tall play. Civ 6 did away with all of this. But in 5 there are many systems and mechanics in place that either benefit or suffer depending on which way you go. For example many of the best city buildings have prerequisite buildings. Nothing different there, but in 5 you need to have those prerequisite buildings in every city. The ironworks for example, needs workshops in all of your other cities, or the university needs libraries everywhere.. So this means that as you expand, those higher level buildings need to wait until you have gotten the lower level building built in your newly acquired city. A number of things have increasing costs according to how many cities you have, including social policies. So there are some very strong incentives to play tall, which 6 has none of.

Social policies are another difference, working sort of like the policies in 5, but you can't change them in and out. Liberty, Tradition, Commerce, Piety and the rest are powerful bonuses, but you are committing to this path, it's not a temporary thing like in Civ 6. It's additional opportunity cost that you don't have in 6.

Terrain feels more important, and honestly I like the map better when it isn't covered in districts. Maybe that contributes to the cartoon feel that JC talked about. In Civ 5, each tile is workable, with no district spam, and I prefer this aesthetic. I'll attach a screen shot of my fledgling empire and it shows it well. Civ 6 is pretty fantastic in it's animations. There's no comparison. If you zoom in and look at the units and buildings in Civ 6 it looks great with everything that's going on. But I'm never zoomed in so in practice it's not much different. Civ 6 has a lot of little QoL improvements, such as a light blue movement range limit shown whenever you select a unit.

Yet another difference is how workers err, work. No builder 'charges', the workers are permanent, but take multiple turns to build the tile improvement. I like this better too. In addition, roads are built by the workers and not by trade routes. There is something satisfying about planning and building your road network, with some good bonuses to connecting your cities to the capital.

Civ 5 is more streamlined, Civ 6 is more dense, both aesthetically and in regards to systems and mechanics. Adjacency bonuses, loyalty, governors, disasters, amenities, housing and all the new layers in Civ 6 make it a deeper game. Better is a different question, but there is certainly more to think about and do in the later game. I prefer the diplomatic play in Civ 5, and how city-state friend/ally stuff works. It's not just envoy stacking, but doing things for them, which in turn gives you extra diplomatic power if you ally them. And load times are vastly better of course, Civ 5 is much older and while Civ 6 runs fine for me, the load times, especially the initial load, are pretty long. I rarely reload, but when starting a new game I'll often ht restart until I like the spawn location. It takes just a few seconds in Civ 5.

The main reason I wanted to revisit Civ 5 is for how I remembered warfare, how the AI played. But I failed to set the game up to get a feel for this, and the map. I had not gotten the achievement for playing on tiny maps, nor at Chieftian! difficulty, so I thought for a first go I'd play that. Of course that's way too easy a level, and the map put each civ on it's own island. So often, especially on higher difficulties, this is exactly what I want! But this time I was hoping to have a belligerent close neighbor to get down and dirty with some never-ending war. So of course no one had met anyone halfway through the game with this setup. And at this difficulty level war with the AI wouldn't reveal much anyway.

Here's my Arabia. Just three cities as I saw right off that going tall was the way I wanted to go, with the best buildings. Four cities is quite a bit better for the tradition tree rewards, but there wasn't really room here (northeast corner looks like forest, but it's all tundra too). This shot shows the different terrain aesthetics, with the farm fields, cowpens and the like. Those are also in Civ 6, but it gets washed out with districts. Here it feels more natural and pleasing to me. Not a big deal really, the gameplay's the thing, but something I noticed.

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#4565313 - 04/20/21 08:16 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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Interesting stuff! I think I already like the artwork in V better than VI. I'll be interested in hearing your takes on warfare and diplomacy.

In theory, I like the mechanic of having to build sub-buildings like Libraries before you can build University, as in Civ V. I can see why they got rid of it in Civ VI, however. I bet they received a number of complaints about that mechanic. Maybe if they didn't require sub-buildings in every city, perhaps 75% instead?

I'll have to grab V when it comes back on sale--probably just before they release Civ VII.

#4565385 - 04/21/21 09:41 AM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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Check me if I'm wrong, but you still have to progress through some building - ie library before university, but in 6 that is done on a city-by-city basis.

Good observations - the worker thing bothered me as well, the immediacy of improvements bothers me a bit too, I think I preferred the idea that I have to tie up time in the process of building up your land.


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#4565401 - 04/21/21 12:24 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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Yes, that's right. Civ 6 still has prerequisite buildings, but the difference is it ignores what is in your other cities. Civ 5 is set up so that every new city you settle, or every city you capture sort of resets it. So if you have four good-sized cities and then start a new one, all of the higher level buildings in the original four now need to wait until the new city catches up. This is a huge difference that serves to limit the potential of cities in wide, and widening, empires.

The Chieftain Arabia run is won already. The AI stands no chance at this level and I won a culture victory in the early 1900s, around turn 350 or so. But it served as a primer to the Civ 5 rules, and I've now begun a Persia run on King, epic speed, standard pangea map for 8 civs with two civs and two city-states removed. I was determined to get my first four cities down as quickly as I could, ignoring wonders and any higher level buildings until this base was established. Fourth city was settled on turn 92, but I suffered from negative happiness which put the brakes on growth and production. The AI has few luxuries to trade for, and I have few in my part of the map. But getting these four cities down despite the drawbacks is key I think. America is my closest neighbor, and I forward-settled him with my second and third cities, which he protested. His Manifest Destiny ability gobbles up land fast, so i thought it was key to limit his expansion in my direction. My frontier cities will suffer a bit from reduced tiles as they butt up against his borders, but I think it was the right move in the long run.

I have yet to go to war, but barbs are insane. Any 'dark' spot on the map is likely to spawn a barb camp within a few turns. I am constantly being raided and pillaged, especially by their #%&*$# mounted units, and it's a lot of fun. Getting gobs of combat XP which will pay off later with veteran units for the wars against civs. One more comment.... since getting back in to Civ a few weeks ago I have played many runs, several through to the end. I have yet to have war declared on me even once, aside from emergency resolutions. It's bizarre. Hoping that changes in this run.


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#4565409 - 04/21/21 01:09 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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The district mechanic is probably meant to offset the "every city needs x" of the previous version.

Warmaking seems to be frowned on by the devs in both 5 & 6. At least in 6 (as I recalll.) the diplo hits aren't as severe. I'm not generally a warlike player, I tend to play more on the science side, but when I get a good warlike going, I find it enjoyable. Civ 6 didn't seem like that was a viable as a playing strat to be honest, too much to overcome on the diplo side.

And while I'm complaining, the emphasis on some form of world governing body in both 5 & 6 has been disappointing - at least in implementation. I find the 6 implementation laughable in the sense that you can be in the world congress even before you have contact with some of the other civs. I'm voting on things and the other players are listed as "Unmet Player" - how did the world congress get started before you met the rest of the leaders?? If I'm voting to nerf a particular leader, how can I do so if I dont' even know they exist??? Ridiculous!

So after a bit of comparison - you seem to be favoring 5 over 6?


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#4565414 - 04/21/21 01:32 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
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I think Civ 6 favors war more in the simple sense that there is no real penalty for expansion. Or maybe saying it favors conquering would be more accurate, just due to the mechanics. With nothing to reward a player for staying tall, nor penalties for expansion, there is no compelling game system reason for doing so.

I agree on the World Congress. It's poor in Civ 6. So much so that I wonder why they didn't just keep how it works in Civ 5. At least you need to meet everyone first lol. But it works better and is more interesting in Civ 5, amassing delegates though good play, and not just trying to guess which way the AI will vote like in 6. I often disable diplomatic victory, and especially so in 6.

It's too early to tell which game i prefer. This run hopefully reveals more. I need to experience more war to make that decision. The first analogy that came to mind is that the two games are like chess and checkers. One has more complex rules and more varied pieces, but both are fun and strategical. There are aspects of each that I prefer over the other. The choice isn't simple.


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4565429 - 04/21/21 02:44 PM Re: Civ 6 [Re: DBond]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,374
JohnnyChemo Online sleepy
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JohnnyChemo  Online Sleepy
Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,374
Buffalo, NY
I've already moved on from Civ 6 I think. I liked it briefly, but it just didn't hold my interest. I may try again later, but I may also wind up loading 5 back up for a comparison as well.


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