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#4564580 - 04/16/21 01:11 PM Re: chill31's DR1 and other such wonders [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
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This is excellent. Are you working on just a DR1 FM, or do you think you can extrapolate some of the effects of rotary engines to other aircraft too, even if you don't have an exact replica of the others? FM and DM development is a process of continual refinement and testing, I think.

One thing I've always wanted to know is how people keep rotary engines running on replica airplanes today. Are you using one of the re-production shops in Australia or New Zealand for parts, or are there shops in the US that offer parts and overhaul for them? I ask because I know aero engines have certain routine inspections and then operation hours maintenance procedures. If you have a bad piston or the like, it isn't something you take to the local machine shop, is it?

#4564611 - 04/16/21 04:03 PM Re: chill31's DR1 and other such wonders [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
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Chill, those videos are unbelievable! God go with you on those flights, we want you and your plane to stay in one piece! It's a wonderful replica, and likely the best craftsmanship going (no wartime production pressures, etc.) but it's not like you're flying the most advanced design ever! Stay well within the performance envelope!

The things people can do simply amaze me... wait'll my brother-in-law sees this!


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#4564672 - 04/16/21 07:56 PM Re: chill31's DR1 and other such wonders [Re: Chill31]  
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Originally Posted by Chill31


It is not like in the sim. When I fly sims, I feel like an owl that can see directly behind itself. In the plane, especially the Dr1, you have to keep one hand on the stick, and that makes it a little more challenging to turn right versus left. I also know that pilots in WWI kept their shoulder straps quite loose in order to allow them to look around easily. I probably keep mine more restrictive than if I was fighting for my life.

Based on my experience (I wondered the same question) I think a good approximation is about 150-160 degrees of rotation. You should be able to just see the whole rudder when looking over your shoulder. If you can comfortably see everything behind you, it is not restricted enough.

I'll see if I can get a picture of my field of view for you.


My own experiences reflect the exact same thing! I often wondered if it was possible to limit the extent to which my TrackIR is able to rotate. It would be also be a while before anyone in the cockpit felt confident enough to loosen their shoulder straps! Back in the days of lap belts this wouldn't have been such an issue I suppose, but there are other encumberances like the heavy flying gear required to operate at over 10,000 feet in an open cockpit that conspire against a fellow being able to do basic things that we take for granted at the joystick. I can't beleive that we're lucky enough to have someone available to tweak the Dr.1 FM from first hand experience! Looking forward to flying Herr Fokker's venetian blind when it comes out!


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Wenn ihr sieg im deine Kampf selbst gegen, wirst stark wie Stahl sein.
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#4564760 - 04/17/21 04:03 AM Re: chill31's DR1 and other such wonders [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
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Originally Posted by Robert_Wiggins
Chill I have long been wondering about the DR1 capability to do flat turns and how tight the circumference of the circle path would be.

I was always fascinated with the tale of Voss having done a snap flat turn but I suspect the description was overzealous.

Best Regards
.



I still want to explore this, but in my limited experience in trying to do it, I think it can only really be done effectively at LOW airspeed. The Dr.I LOVES to get slow and still maneuver, especially when compared to its contemporaries. I have done some rudder turns, but they are not as impressive as I imagined them. I have to counter the rolling tendency with aileron which just adds a lot of drag.

#4564762 - 04/17/21 04:09 AM Re: chill31's DR1 and other such wonders [Re: SirMike1983]  
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Originally Posted by SirMike1983
This is excellent. Are you working on just a DR1 FM, or do you think you can extrapolate some of the effects of rotary engines to other aircraft too, even if you don't have an exact replica of the others? FM and DM development is a process of continual refinement and testing, I think.

One thing I've always wanted to know is how people keep rotary engines running on replica airplanes today. Are you using one of the re-production shops in Australia or New Zealand for parts, or are there shops in the US that offer parts and overhaul for them? I ask because I know aero engines have certain routine inspections and then operation hours maintenance procedures. If you have a bad piston or the like, it isn't something you take to the local machine shop, is it?


I have only dabbled with a few of the rotary planes in WOFF, and so far, it seems like the gyro effect is under done or done opposite what I would expect. Based upon that, I will probably go through all of the rotary birds and see how they feel. I can make an educated guess on them based on my Dr.I experience and stories I've been told (one by a gentleman who flew a N17 with a 110 back in the 70s). I can't be sure that what comes out of it is really "accurate" without having flown it and collected data.

Rotary engines in the US are in the experimental category of aircraft engine. They have never been through certification testing, so you can literally do anything you want to one and go fly it. I like to preserve the original experience, so I don't make any modifications to them. I have had to remanufacture components to keep them serviceable. For example, my Clerget has new pistons in it that were made by a racecar piston manufacturing company. If you need parts, you can get them made It just might make your piggy bank squeal every now and then.

#4564763 - 04/17/21 04:11 AM Re: chill31's DR1 and other such wonders [Re: HumanDrone]  
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Originally Posted by HumanDrone
Chill, those videos are unbelievable! God go with you on those flights, we want you and your plane to stay in one piece! It's a wonderful replica, and likely the best craftsmanship going (no wartime production pressures, etc.) but it's not like you're flying the most advanced design ever! Stay well within the performance envelope!

The things people can do simply amaze me... wait'll my brother-in-law sees this!




Haha, indeed. What you see in the videos I post are not first time amateur attempts. I leave out the slow expansion of the envelope flights and skip to the good stuff.

#4564764 - 04/17/21 04:32 AM Re: chill31's DR1 and other such wonders [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
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I finished modding the Dr.I to a level that is satisfying. There are quite a few limitations in what I can accomplish in the FM, but I think what I have is a nice representation of the Dr.I. You will find that it is a little twitchy, needs liberal use of the rudder (go back and watch the air to air shoot video I posted and just look at the rudder), and almost has an arcade feel as it will do basically anything you want except go fast. Some of the stall and post stall characteristics are quirky, and I couldn't figure out how to edit those. The performance of the plane matches my 80 Le Rhone performance numbers (roll rate, pitch rate, turn rate). After I modeled the 80 Rhone Dr.I, I "added" a new engine and gave it 117 hp which took the climb rate to 1450 ft/min. The top speed in level flight is 110 mph based on aerodynamic projections from the data I collected on the 80 Rhone flights.

Try it out and give me feedback, good or bad. You won't hurt my feelings.

Fokker Dr.I QC FM Version 4/17/2021 - Iplayed with the yaw, roll, and pitch damping to make it feel like it had a little more mass to it. Performance numbers are pretty much right on.

Last edited by Chill31; 04/17/21 05:20 PM.
#4564797 - 04/17/21 11:56 AM Re: chill31's DR1 and other such wonders [Re: Chill31]  
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Originally Posted by Chill31
I finished modding the Dr.I to a level that is satisfying. There are quite a few limitations in what I can accomplish in the FM...


Hi smile First of all I wanted to say thank you so much for sharing this incredible information and your experiences. Beautiful, fascinating...I could go on and on...

A question, if you please - as regards the FM modifications you've been working on. Can you elaborate on the limitations you're referring to? I have worked with a number of simulators first hand, so I'm very aware of limitations in a simulator environment, and I'm very curious about your observations in this area as compared to your own first hand experience. For example, what would you have done that you couldn't? Or what would you have done differently but weren't able to?

Thanks again for all your wonderful input.

#4564821 - 04/17/21 03:08 PM Re: chill31's DR1 and other such wonders [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Originally Posted by kksnowbear
Hi smile First of all I wanted to say thank you so much for sharing this incredible information and your experiences. Beautiful, fascinating...I could go on and on...

A question, if you please - as regards the FM modifications you've been working on. Can you elaborate on the limitations you're referring to? I have worked with a number of simulators first hand, so I'm very aware of limitations in a simulator environment, and I'm very curious about your observations in this area as compared to your own first hand experience. For example, what would you have done that you couldn't? Or what would you have done differently but weren't able to?

Thanks again for all your wonderful input.


Compared to FSX, the FM modification I can make seems to be a little more simplified in the .XFM file. Some things from the Dr.I FM that I just noticed:

-the max speed is set by a number that I type in (ex. 110 mph) instead of it being a produce of induced drag (Cdi), parasite drag (Cd0), engine power, and propeller pitch. Those primary values are in the XFM file, but they seem to only control how fast the airplane accelerates/decelerates up to the fixed "topspeed" value.

-aileron effectiveness should decrease as AOA increases. This may be in the XFM file, but I couldn't find it. There is one parameter "Rollspeed" that seemed to have an effect, but it acted like it was either on or off, so I set it down low near stall in order to keep the plane from seeming like it was schizo. A Dr.I should go from full aileron effectiveness around 80 mph with an exponential decay to maybe 20% effectiveness at stall AOA.

-I cant get this to work in ANY sim, so...the Dr.I has negative static stability and positive dynamic stability in yaw. This means that if you are flying straight, the airplane will start yawing, by itself to either the left of right. Once it begins to yaw, the airplane will reach a maximum slip angle where it stabilizes and is flying "sideways" in about a 15 degree slip. To counter this, the pilot is constantly using the rudder to keep it straight. Using the XFM file, I can get it to display the incredible yaw rates the Dr.I can generate, but I couldn't get it to slow the rate as the slip angle increased. As I left it, the yaw rate will increase linearly with rudder deflection.

-I couldn't modify the stall and post stall characteristics very well with the XFM file. In a straight and level stall, the Dr.I should have a slight nose drop where the top of the cowling is touching the horizon and a left-right wing rock as it descends. When turning, it invariably rolls off gently in the direction of the turn. The Dr.I is very reluctant to spin. For any pilots who have flown a J-3 cub, it is that benign (I think I have that part pretty well replicated).

Those are the principal areas I had trouble replicating in the XFM file.

#4564822 - 04/17/21 03:22 PM Re: chill31's DR1 and other such wonders [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
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This is simply fantastic stuff, Chill! I can't imagine the skill and the brass balls it takes too l build and fly one of these ancient contraptions! Kudos to you, sir, and thank you for sharing.

Regarding the FM's in WOFF, I used to fiddle with them some in earlier versions, but not so much since WOFF UE, when OBD encrypted several FM variables. In fact, I was able to produce a relatively flat turn for the Dr1, and it was easier when flying slowly!

Although some encrypted variables have to do with engine variables, most of the important ones control aerodynamics and drag, particularly induced and parasitic drag. Without direct access to these variables, it will be very difficult to produce an accurate FM. Perhaps OBD will allow Chill to lend his first-hand expertise to improving the FM of the WOFF rotary-engined aerocraft?

One other limitation to producing accurate FM's for WOFF aircraft is based on the fact that CFS3 is a WWII simulation, not a WWI simulation. Inline and radial engines have much less gyroscopic precession than rotary craft, so gyroscopic precession isn't modeled that much in the cfs3 engine, at least in my admittedly limited understanding. I am not an aeronautical engineer and will never claim to be one!

#4564831 - 04/17/21 03:51 PM Re: chill31's DR1 and other such wonders [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
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Before WOFF PE, you could directly access each aircraft's .air file using a 3rd party tool named airEdit. Since WOFF PE, the .air file no longer has any values we can edit.

To be fair to OBD, my guess is that Microsoft may have "gently" suggested to OBD to not allow users of a commercial product such as WOFF direct access to cfs3's proprietary FM files, but that is just a guess on my part.

Chill, if I can find the files buried in one of my hard drives, would you be interested in looking at the old .cfg and .air files for the Dr1?

#4564837 - 04/17/21 04:28 PM Re: chill31's DR1 and other such wonders [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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Originally Posted by BuckeyeBob
Before WOFF PE, you could directly access each aircraft's .air file using a 3rd party tool named airEdit. Since WOFF PE, the .air file no longer has any values we can edit.

To be fair to OBD, my guess is that Microsoft may have "gently" suggested to OBD to not allow users of a commercial product such as WOFF direct access to cfs3's proprietary FM files, but that is just a guess on my part.

Chill, if I can find the files buried in one of my hard drives, would you be interested in looking at the old .cfg and .air files for the Dr1?


Yeah, that would be cool. Is it something we can use here in WOFF?

#4564847 - 04/17/21 05:15 PM Re: chill31's DR1 and other such wonders [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
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Great stuff Chill - I look forward to trying out this xfm file for the Dr.1.

In terms of FM tweaks in WOFF (from UE onwards) - only the xfm files are accessible, giving a max. of 20 or so entries that may be manipulated, to hammer things into shape generally (not speaking of scrape points here) - but no extensive FM modding is possible. Having said that, I have done some work on the air/cfg files in WOTR via the free AirEditor program, and while there are more than a hundred entries to tweak in the air/cfg files, many of them are cryptic and would require lengthy testing and studying. In short, the best solution would be lengthy xfm files, with dozens, preferably hundreds of fairly clear entries, as seen in the data ini files in the ThirdWire sims - but it is what it is. OBD sure has done a miracle with the old cfs3 code, no doubts about that.

The Dr.1 with stock FM, as far as I remember, flies sideways too - as it does in my FM tweaks (requiring about 2-3 percent movement of rudder frequently, even in good weather, not to fly sideways). In terms of the famous flat turn on the Dr.1 - not speaking of the real thing but in simulations - you will always need opposite aileron, more or less, to maintain a proper flat turn - the tighter the flat turn, the more opposite aileron needed. In my FM packs, the early Dr.1 is the best flat turner. More difficult to maintain them on the 150 hp variant since it eventually tends to tip over, etc.

I also find quite fascinating the many variations that perhaps would have been present on WW1 aircraft. Consider that not all Dr.1s might have the same rudder response, etc., even when factory fresh. This is seen even today. Chill's Dr.1, as he posted, requires lots of rudder for tight turns. On the other hand, if you look carefully at the Mikael Carlson vids. on YouTube, with his Dr.1 - he is usually not using more than about 20% rudder even in fairly tight turns. There is a clip where he used more rudder in a loop, and then fell into a spin. With WW1 aircraft FMs in simulators, I think Pat Wilson said it best that all you really want to make sure is that the FM is "not obviously wrong."

Looking forward to further developments with the Dr.1 FM.

Cheers all,
Von S smile2

Last edited by VonS; 04/18/21 02:59 AM. Reason: Added info.

// Installation instructions regarding WOFF UE/PE/BH&H2 on Macs (https://tinyurl.com/WOFFonMac) // VonS WOFF/WOTR mods. are tweaks of files that are © OBD Software. // FE2 FMs & Realism Pack (https://tinyurl.com/FE2fms) // WW1 Novel (http://ladyharbury.kissr.com/) //
#4564855 - 04/17/21 05:47 PM Re: chill31's DR1 and other such wonders [Re: VonS]  
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Originally Posted by VonS
Great stuff Chill - I look forward to trying out this xfm file for the Dr.1.

In terms of FM tweaks in WOFF (from UE onwards) - only the xfm files are accessible, giving a max. of 20 or so entries that may be manipulated, to hammer things into shape generally (not speaking of scrape points here) - but no extensive FM modding is possible. Having said that, I have done some work on the air/cfg files in WOTR via the free AirEditor program, and while there are more than a hundred entries to tweak in the air/cfg files, many of them are cryptic and would require lengthy testing and studying. In short, the best solution would be lengthy xfm files, with dozens, preferably hundreds of fairly clear entries, as seen in the data ini files in the ThirdWire sims - but it is what it is. OBD sure has done a miracle with the old cfs3 code, no doubts about that.

Yes they have! I really love this one.

Originally Posted by VonS
The Dr.1 with stock FM, as far as I remember, flies sideways too - as it does in my FM tweaks (requiring about 2-3 percent movement of rudder frequently, even in good weather, not to fly sideways). In terms of the famous flat turn on the Dr.1 - not speaking of the real thing but in simulations - you will always need opposite aileron, more or less, to maintain a proper flat turn - the tighter the flat turn, the more opposite aileron needed. In my FM packs, the early Dr.1 is the best flat turner. More difficult to maintain them on the 150 hp variant since it eventually tends to tip over, etc.


I just loaded up the stock Dr.I FM, and it is far too stable. Even the one I just made is to stable in yaw, but it is a good representation. I will be curious to see what you think of how I am representing the Dr.I!

Originally Posted by VonS
I also find quite fascinating the many variations that perhaps would have been present on WW1 aircraft. Consider that not all Dr.1s might have the same rudder response, etc., even when factory fresh. This is seen even today. Chill's Dr.1, as he posted, requires lots of rudder for tight turns. On the other hand, if you look carefully at the Mikael Carlson vids. on YouTube, with his Dr.1 - he is usually not using more than about 20% rudder even in fairly tight turns. There is a clip where he used more rudder in a loop, and then fell into a spin. With WW1 aircraft FMs in simulators, I think Pat Wilson said it best that all you really want to make sure is that the FM is "not obviously wrong."


Mikael is using a lot more rudder than it looks like, definitely more than 20%. In this video, watch his rudder. Any time you can see the iron cross on the left side (aircraft left), he is at 70% rudder or more.

#4564887 - 04/17/21 08:56 PM Re: chill31's DR1 and other such wonders [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
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The two files responsible for the FM of the DR1 from WOFF 3 are aircraft.cfg and Fokker_DR1_QC.air. You can open up the cfg file with any text editor, but you will need AirEdit or a hex editing program to read the contents of the .air file. As you can see, there are a pile of variables in the .air file that we no longer have direct access to. Please let me know if you have any questions, although it has been almost 10 years since I last looked at the contents of the .air file!

You can get the files from my dropbox here: LINK

#4564920 - 04/18/21 12:00 AM Re: chill31's DR1 and other such wonders [Re: Chill31]  
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Chill,

Loved the video!!

I'm most impressed by the boldness behind tossing this little plane all around like that. I'm shocked purely because we know by history that there were structural issues with the original factory design. Did your group do anything to reinforce and help strengethen the overall plane?

Is it flown under an "Experimental" cert?

I had a really good conversation with the young Dr,.1 pilot when I visited the Vintage Air Museum in NZ. I was amazed at some of his stories (and overall maturity for his age). But I did ask him this... Since you are manufacturing the engine and airframe from scratch, do you build-in some reliability? His answer was no... because they know escatly where it will fail and how based on the original design. If they change it, it changes the envelope of the overall aircraft to an unknown.

I thought that was very interesting!

James
"OvS"

Last edited by OvStachel; 04/18/21 12:01 AM.

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#4565111 - 04/19/21 03:50 AM Re: chill31's DR1 and other such wonders [Re: J5_Lehmann]  
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Awesome videos!

#4565112 - 04/19/21 03:55 AM Re: chill31's DR1 and other such wonders [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
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Finally had a chance to take your Dr.1 tweaks for a spin in WOFF, Chill, and I'm impressed by the changes. In terms of top speed and climb rate, similar to my early Dr.1 FM tweak (from the FM tweaks package for WOFF UE/PE). Rudder has a similar feeling too, but the ailerons are more sensitive on yours, as is the elevator.

Other general impressions regarding the new xfm tweaks - rudder is needed for proper rolls (otherwise tends to do a sloppy barrel roll if ailerons only are used for rolls; ailerons in my early Dr.1 xfm are heavier so even more futile to attempt rolls without rudder on that one) - and good rudder coordination is definitely needed for loops, especially at the top of loops, in your xfm (more than in mine) - or you come out sideways from where you started (which is similar to what Mikael Carlson also writes about loops in the Dr.1).

Another couple of observations - rudder correction is constantly needed in this xfm, and I do mean constantly, in a dogfight, since it is difficult to keep the nose pointed straight ahead, and this also applies for landings - lots of subtle rudder work needed for a proper landing (dance regularly on the rudder bar), since this tweaked Dr.1 tends to float around, particularly at low power settings necessary for landing - more of a wallowing feel, with constant correction needed. I was also flying in somewhat windy and turbulent conditions, so this was probably aggravated even more. In short, very nice stuff and a good workout when flying in WOFF - I do not fly outside of WOFF (and First Eagles 2, sometimes RoF) - but I think you've probably managed to capture some of the "spirit" of the real Dr.1 with your xfm. Great stuff (I actually prefer your xfm to the Dr.1 FM in RoF too - that one is maybe more like a 85% kit-sized aircraft in terms of behavior?? I would speculate - this one feels right, more like a full-sized aircraft).

In terms of the MaxG rating included in your tweaks (8+), I can't comment since I don't know how much those airframes can tolerate - was it the Eindecker that was tested to about 5.5 Gs tolerance?....can't remember now since I read some such obscure references years ago, so don't quote me on that - (then again, most tests of that time were only static load tests: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpEK09CipCc). I pegged G tolerances to about 5 Gs or so in my Dr.1 xfm tweaks.

Couple of pics. below, finding the right degree of rudder for a nice smooth turn prior to landing, and the friendly mechanics already waiting for me at the aerodrome. (Pics. taken in FrankenWOFF 4.18, backport of PE textures and aircraft into UE 4.18 so that I can use SweetFX.)

Cheers all and happy flying,
Von S smile2

NOTE: My comments are regarding xfm files in WOFF, not the actual Dr.1 (for the record, I do not have a pilot's certificate - my comments are strictly with reference to WOFF - info. above not to be taken as advice for real barnstormers, kit-builders, or those dreaming of doing some real channel-hopping in a Bleriot). Also take note that I flew in windy conditions so perhaps that "magnified" my impressions of the Dr.1 tweaks, but overall impressive stuff. The FM impressions I have given may also be amplified further in BHAH.II, since there are some under-the-hood changes to FMs/DMs in BHAH.II.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Attached Files bitofrudder.jpgreadyforservice.jpg
Last edited by VonS; 04/19/21 04:24 AM. Reason: Embedded representative pics.

// Installation instructions regarding WOFF UE/PE/BH&H2 on Macs (https://tinyurl.com/WOFFonMac) // VonS WOFF/WOTR mods. are tweaks of files that are © OBD Software. // FE2 FMs & Realism Pack (https://tinyurl.com/FE2fms) // WW1 Novel (http://ladyharbury.kissr.com/) //
#4565114 - 04/19/21 04:24 AM Re: chill31's DR1 and other such wonders [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
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Thanks for the detailed report, Von S!

Great job on the FM tweaks, Chill! If I ever get finished with tweaks to my weather files, I will have to give it a spin (figuratively)!

#4565361 - 04/21/21 02:39 AM Re: chill31's DR1 and other such wonders [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
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I don't fly the Dr1 much, but would be interested if what has been applied here might be used on other rotary aircraft to some degree. I am a fan of FM mods that try to get into the detail, as best as can be done on this game engine.

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Song lyrics you were sure of … but they were wrong.
by oldgrognard. 06/13/21 08:01 PM
Yakov's Still Got It!
by vonBaur. 06/12/21 08:25 PM
Resident Evil Village?
by DBond. 06/10/21 05:07 PM
Drama Queens
by carrick58. 06/08/21 12:35 AM
So hell has frozen over!
by PanzerMeyer. 06/06/21 10:18 PM
Operation Opera
by RossUK. 06/06/21 02:11 PM
6/6/44
by Sunchaser. 06/06/21 11:57 AM
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