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#4560456 - 03/17/21 10:33 PM Ultra Hi Res Cockpit possible  
Joined: Oct 2003
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Crashin' Jack Offline
Cockpit Connoisseur
Crashin' Jack  Offline
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So I threw together this simple image this morning to test what the possibilities are for a high resolution cockpit in EAW. I did a simple right interior cockpit side for a Hurricane, used the W.3dz set from Captain Kurt's amazing P-40, and came up with this:

[Linked Image]

I am astounded! I used no 1 pixel lines, so the lines can get sharper. I used two thirds of a 512x512 for the panel, and I thought everything was going to be a bit fuzzy, as we are used to. Gotta say, I can make the panel smaller, and use single lines for detail - and adding the aging effects of wear and tear, this is going to be awesome!

BTW the wing is funky cause it's the wrong res, not to worry.

I'm in my happy place.


"Blasts from clustered R4M quartets in my snout
And see these English planes go burn...." Blue Oyster Cult

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4560490 - 03/18/21 10:49 AM Re: Ultra Hi Res Cockpit possible [Re: Crashin' Jack]  
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MrJelly Offline
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Looking good CJ smile


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#4560503 - 03/18/21 02:24 PM Re: Ultra Hi Res Cockpit possible [Re: Crashin' Jack]  
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#4560519 - 03/18/21 04:56 PM Re: Ultra Hi Res Cockpit possible [Re: Crashin' Jack]  
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SkyHigh Offline
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SkyHigh  Offline
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Jack, are you going to base your wonderful Hurricane improvements on the stock Hurricane cockpit or on the revised version by Claudio Wilches, which is now the standard one in EAW 1.60?

#4560537 - 03/18/21 08:32 PM Re: Ultra Hi Res Cockpit possible [Re: Crashin' Jack]  
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Crashin' Jack Offline
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Crashin' Jack  Offline
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Skyhigh, it will be an all new cockpit. Here is the back story:

Originally, all of our cockpits were created using two graphics images, the X.tpc file for the gauges and instrument panel, and the V.tpc for the left cockpit half, right cockpit half, both wing views and the gun sight. A typical tpc file would look like this:

[Linked Image]

The image is 256x256 pixels, and 256 colors. Eventually we discovered we could map each 3dz file to it's own tpc image, and in fact use different naming conventions to an extent. This has been utilized for a long time in creating what we think of as Hi Res skins. Captain Kurt took it to the greatest extreme when he created his P-40. He used separate tpc files for each side, the wings, and the gunsight. Here is his right side of the cockpit:

[Linked Image]

You can immediately see that the detail is greatly enhanced, but the image is still the old 256x256, with 256 colors.

In the 1.28 series, we were finally able to address the use of bmp files, at 512x512 - four times the size!- and using 16 million colors! This has only been utilized to a small degree, by just a few skinners, but the results have been amazing. It has led to being able to have every plane is the squadron having different markings. Check out Iron Mike's amazing stuff for a look at that.

These larger files also work in the cockpit, but unfortunately the needles and sprites for the gauges are way too small and misaligned:

[Linked Image]

Recently, I was able to edit several source files that allowed me to create the proper gauges:

[Linked Image]

Iron Mike has graciously accepted the challenge to create new graphics for the Mosquito. We have been discussing how to proceed when I went back to the files created by Captain Kurt, and since I had created all the new gauges I need for the Brit fighters, I thought I would experiment in the Hurricane slot since Kurt's files were already set up there. So I threw together a simple side panel for the Hurricane, in 512x512bmp, 16 million colors, and got this:

[Linked Image]

You can see the larger size means a ton more detail is possible. But if I use the old style of 3dz, the mapping typically looked like this, because SO much was crammed on a small file:

[Linked Image]

So, if we rethink the process, and use large panels, we can drastically reduce the complexity and get some really great results:

[Linked Image]

So here is where we are at. We can have really awesome cockpits, but since they need new cpt and vcg files, and the cockpit editor (which is actually built into the game) only works in the 1.2x series, everything must be built to 1.28 standards, with all new files. Some of the hi res stuff has the basic framework, but this is all going to be new. It can then be easily converted into 160, but that exe will need a mod as well -AND at the moment, this is NOT backwards compatible because of the requirements for the gauge needles and sprites.

If you know how to paint, I've got some work for you. If you don't we can teach you! 3dz expert? Come on down!

Chees,

CJ


"Blasts from clustered R4M quartets in my snout
And see these English planes go burn...." Blue Oyster Cult

#4560588 - 03/19/21 11:00 AM Re: Ultra Hi Res Cockpit possible [Re: Crashin' Jack]  
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,859
Rotton50 Offline
3DZ / campaign designer
Rotton50  Offline
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Jack,

Very nice start.

Are these PCX graphics or BMP's?

If PCX do they show up in 3dz Studio?

If BMP's how are you going to work with 3dz Studio when it come to editing the 3dz files shapes since the BMP's don't display in Studio?

I think we'll need to have a discussion at some point about memory loads but that's better done in the back forum over at the GEN.


Heck, even paranoids have enemies.
#4560609 - 03/19/21 02:50 PM Re: Ultra Hi Res Cockpit possible [Re: Crashin' Jack]  
Joined: Oct 2003
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Crashin' Jack Offline
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Crashin' Jack  Offline
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Ray, in the game folder they are bmp. I also make a copy as a pcx for using the editor. I create the image in Photoshop as a psd. I use Paint Shop Pro for conversion to bmp and pcx, because it handles the process differently than Photoshop, which has a habit of saving the palette in reverse. It's literally a couple of key strokes so no big deal re 3dz Studio. As for memory loads I don't think that's too much of a concern at the moment, I see no slowing down at all of the game, and if you are still running a 20 year old machine - I have no problems on my Win98 machine either. Keep in mind that these bmps are being used for only one plane in the sky, the AI don't use cockpit files.

Cheers,

CJ


"Blasts from clustered R4M quartets in my snout
And see these English planes go burn...." Blue Oyster Cult

#4560617 - 03/19/21 04:43 PM Re: Ultra Hi Res Cockpit possible [Re: Crashin' Jack]  
Joined: Feb 2006
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Rotton50 Offline
3DZ / campaign designer
Rotton50  Offline
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I'm using the same approach the few times I use BMP's for aircraft models. Sure would help if we could get a version of 3dz Studio that handled them though.

On the memory issue, I'm not sure if you were around in the early days but when VBH came out with one of his "Pac Tide" scenarios we ran into garbled cockpit graphics that turned out to be some kind of memory overload issue. It was resolved but I don't recall how.

FWIW, it might not be just your cockpits that cause a problem by themselves but in conjunction with a bunch of mulit-skin loaded at the same time MIGHT be a problem.

I'm not predicting disaster by any means but just put a pin in it in case something similar shows up down the road.


Heck, even paranoids have enemies.
#4560629 - 03/19/21 05:57 PM Re: Ultra Hi Res Cockpit possible [Re: Crashin' Jack]  
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Crashin' Jack Offline
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Crashin' Jack  Offline
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Early days? Not EWARLY early, lol, but I joined this group in 2003, when I wanted to start modding. I worked with VBH and Mr. Johnson. extensively to figure out the cpt and vcg files, which in turn led to finding the Cockpit Editor. I did the conversion of the code from 640x480 to 1024x768. I remember VBH's issues, too, lol. Fun times!

Most of the initial garbled cockpits and 7217 errors and such, were dealt with in the 1.28 series. Enlarging the base size of the game, form 640x480 to 1024x768 took care of many of these issues, as newer computers had dropped support for the sizes less than that. Further screen tearing was dealt with in 1.28d or e. I get that some people will not be able to run these cockpits - as I understand it, glide does not support these bmps. Well, cross that bridge when we come to it. I'm just tired of looking at graphics from 1998 in my cockpit.

In these days, with computers that are even 10 years old (mine is at least 6) the gigabytes I have for ram should be more than sufficient; I don't think that is a game issue. The buffers were all modded to handle the 16 bit images, and each image is essentially assigned a buffer as needed. If problems develop, we'll address them if we can.


"Blasts from clustered R4M quartets in my snout
And see these English planes go burn...." Blue Oyster Cult

#4560906 - 03/22/21 08:13 AM Re: Ultra Hi Res Cockpit possible [Re: Crashin' Jack]  
Joined: May 2015
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MarkEAW Offline
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MarkEAW  Offline
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Would PNG format be better to use than BMP?
or at this point would it be too time consuming to support PNG?

Also you guys are aware of using AI and special programs you can upscale artwork to what ever res you need, with minimal to no touch ups. I've seen very low res artwork all pixelated from the 1990s scaled to model like images.
I never used the software myself, but I was wondering when it would come out, it came alot sooner than I thought it would.

#4560935 - 03/22/21 03:25 PM Re: Ultra Hi Res Cockpit possible [Re: Crashin' Jack]  
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Crashin' Jack Offline
Cockpit Connoisseur
Crashin' Jack  Offline
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Hi Mark, I suppose it would be possible to change the image format again, but we had some big league assistance in converting to bmp, so I don't know that it would be possible. I also looked at the AI upscaling, very intriguing. But the big issue there is that we are still using a single piece of art for multiple files. In the original game, you had one TEX.TPC file used by as many as eight 3dz files ( they have the info for the wireframe of the model; the tpc is the texture) for the exterior of the plane, and six 3dz files using a single tpc for the cockpit. We can, at this moment, use a separate tpc file for each of those 3dz wireframes. This can offer a substantial increase in resolution on it's own by separating out say, the wing view, to it's own file, and use the entire image just for that. With the AI Scaling, we would still be using the same original image, with an awful lot of space unused by that particular 3dz. It is still also in a pcx format, with a palette of 256 colors.

By the way, using a separate tpc file for each 3dz is really not utilized that much, given that many, many planes were created in the original, low resolution era.

Now, we have the opportunity to increase each image to four times the size, and convert it to bmp format, which uses 16 million colors. Even just doing the cockpits, which constitutes a huge chunk of what you are looking at in game, in this format is a pretty substantial leap forward, and in the process we will have greatly simplified 3dz files too so it appears we can have a near standard format for all cockpits, then it is just drawing the art, popping in the panel, and off you go.


"Blasts from clustered R4M quartets in my snout
And see these English planes go burn...." Blue Oyster Cult

#4560944 - 03/22/21 04:59 PM Re: Ultra Hi Res Cockpit possible [Re: Crashin' Jack]  
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,859
Rotton50 Offline
3DZ / campaign designer
Rotton50  Offline
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Cape Charles, Virginia, USA
Originally Posted by Crashin' Jack
using a separate tpc file for each 3dz is really not utilized that much, given that many, many planes were created in the original, low resolution era.


Maybe for the cockpit but certainly not for the external views. In the case of hi-res planes they use separate TPC's for each section. And now, with the extra 3dz's available in 1.6 the textures can be split up even further making for some ultra hi-res models.

FWIW, I haven't spent any time on this because, well, I suck at drawing textures. If I partnered up with a good skinner I think we could produce some really exceptional models but the thing is, at some point the detail of the external models became quite sufficient while increasing the detail of the cockpits lagged behind for over a decade.

That's why this is such an important project.


Heck, even paranoids have enemies.
#4560961 - 03/22/21 06:27 PM Re: Ultra Hi Res Cockpit possible [Re: Crashin' Jack]  
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Crashin' Jack Offline
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Crashin' Jack  Offline
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Quote
In the case of hi-res planes they use separate TPC's for each section.


That's why I mentioned the low res era. When you look at the overall number of skins created, there are a ton that never got the full hi res treatment. A quick look at the 160 inventory for the Nov. 2020 release showed 471 separate aircraft, a formidable number to be sure (and I know a ton more has been added since), but just looking at Airbhudda and Captain Kurt's lo res planes, there are 438. When you look at other aircraft at Tally Ho listed as "Hi Res" you will also see most do not take full advantage of the tpc files. Most of these skins were created before 2006 or so, when we were only just finding that you could add extra tpc files and point to them with a hex editor. It wasn't until the 1.28 series that we began to add associated transparency files resulting in a whole new era of skin making, the end result being the amazing work showcased in the 160 series. I think it's fantastic that there are so many high quality models that DO take advantage of the more advanced hi res, but they are still, in the overall population of skins, in the minority.

Quote
at some point the detail of the external models became quite sufficient while increasing the detail of the cockpits lagged behind for over a decade.


Yep, that's for sure. I have tried to interest people in going down this path, but I don't think it's quite as glamorous as skinning the exterior. However, since most skins, of any era, still use a relatively small number of cockpits, I think we could really make some substantial gains in that area, which could benefit those that prefer using the older versions as much as the newer styles shown in 1.29 through 160.


"Blasts from clustered R4M quartets in my snout
And see these English planes go burn...." Blue Oyster Cult

#4560975 - 03/22/21 09:56 PM Re: Ultra Hi Res Cockpit possible [Re: Crashin' Jack]  
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453Raafspitty Offline
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453Raafspitty  Offline
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Needs better support for 3D programs and designers.3DZ studio is outdated and clunky.

#4561018 - 03/23/21 09:51 AM Re: Ultra Hi Res Cockpit possible [Re: Crashin' Jack]  
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,859
Rotton50 Offline
3DZ / campaign designer
Rotton50  Offline
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Posts: 4,859
Cape Charles, Virginia, USA
There are now about 800 aircraft folders in 1.6. I'd say about 3/4 of them are hi-res. The remainder are 'enhanced' lo-res models where I used up all the available nodes to make round bits look less jagged, which, honestly, could have been done from day 1 by the original designers. I'm not sure why they were satisfied with the default models having all those jagged edges.

That said, I think we've taken the hi-res thing as far as it needs to go. The interiors are definitely the place we need to concentrate on.

As for 3dz Studio, other than not being able to calculate the rendering sequence and not displaying BMP's, it does a more than adequate job. There was an aborted attempt to add the R/S calculations to the program back when Col. Gibbon was still with us but it was never completed.


Heck, even paranoids have enemies.
#4561039 - 03/23/21 02:14 PM Re: Ultra Hi Res Cockpit possible [Re: Crashin' Jack]  
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Crashin' Jack Offline
Cockpit Connoisseur
Crashin' Jack  Offline
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Illinois, USA
You've done an amazing job, Ray. I knew you had released quite a bit more stuff.

As for the jagged edges, most early skins were just that - ONLY skins, applied to the original models as released by Microprose. Picpac was the only tool they actually released, which allowed changing the skin. The original 3DZ! Studio, by Alessandro Borges, could edit the 3dz, but it was extremely tedious to use and it was pretty easy to cause rendering problems by accidently twisting a polygon. The most of the few models I made were done using this tool, and believe me, it was so tedious that you were happy if you got the skin to line up properly from one polygon to the next. It also only gave three views of the model, front, side, top, so you were constantly jumping back and forth in to the game to see your work. Then you also had a bunch of models imported from Pacific Air War, which used an even simpler wireframe model, but people were happy to get the general shape. Now, as resolutions get quite a bit better than back in the day, the imperfections get glaringly obvious. Glad to have you around to update this stuff.


"Blasts from clustered R4M quartets in my snout
And see these English planes go burn...." Blue Oyster Cult

#4561065 - 03/23/21 04:49 PM Re: Ultra Hi Res Cockpit possible [Re: Crashin' Jack]  
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,859
Rotton50 Offline
3DZ / campaign designer
Rotton50  Offline
3DZ / campaign designer
Senior Member

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,859
Cape Charles, Virginia, USA
Actually, I tried editing using those early tools and quickly gave up. I shifted gears and started working on upgrading the loadout function so that a plane could drop separate bombs and have separate rocket salvos.

By the time I figured all that out the first version of 3dz Studio came out and I switched back to modeling. Been bouncing back and forth ever since. A true jack of all trades, master of none.


Heck, even paranoids have enemies.

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