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#4556472 - 02/17/21 03:53 PM Re: AMD Zen 4 with 5nm node [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Originally Posted by kksnowbear
Adger, every bit of what I've mentioned is directly related to the OP, in that it's all part of AMD's continued developments. The fact that there's a problem between AMD GPUs and WOFF isn't my fault, but it is definitely important relative to the topic..


Not relative to this topic though is it? Which is about Zen 4 CPU,S. and fwiw I know loads of folks with team red CPU,s and Team Green GPU,s, I’ve recently built just a system for my daughters boyfriend,
in fact I’ve probably built half a dozen or more with these systems in the last 12 months never ever had a issue.ever, anyone is more than welcome to go look at YouTube reviews of AMD’s CPU,s paired with Nvidia GPU,s

..you’ll see literally hundreds of videos showing benchmarks, what are you talking about? I’ve never encountered any problems using a mix of Team red or team green and team blue.? Doesn’t look like the test reviews have either. I personally find it strange that you prefer a system to be all AMD, or Intel/ Nvidia..? Not a combination of both? Ah well each to there own.

Again deadhorse

Anyway yes Hellshade the Zen 4 cpus look excellent but no doubt here in Blighty they’ll be like gold dust. Seems like every man and his dog is picking up PC hardware over here, Overclockers my local store have a waiting list on quite a few different HW components


They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.
#4556475 - 02/17/21 04:07 PM Re: AMD Zen 4 with 5nm node [Re: Hellshade]  
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I didn't say there aren't lots of people using AMD CPUs with Nvidia ("Green", BTW). Done many myself, doing two as we speak, as a matter of fact (both of which can be confirmed by a frequent poster in this very forum).

I just said lots prefer to build all AMD vs Intel/Nvidia - which is perfectly true. I also said I factually fixed a problem in an X570 machine (I didn't build it, it was brought to me to correct a lot of mistakes the builder made). I fixed it's intermittent boot problems by replacing an Nvidia 1030 with an AMD card.

Do I know why it was a problem? Not really. Did it work properly when I got done? Yup. Do I necessarily care why it was happening, since I fixed it? Nope. Did I get paid? You betcha.

Would you like the phone number of the person I did this for, so you can personally verify it?

Now, if you're finished with the personal attacks, I'd just as soon let the thread get back on course.

I was saying Zen3 CPUs are great, and Zen4 should be even better. Shame that "some programs" don't seem to like AMD GPUs, because "some people" like to build all AMD machines instead of Intel/Nvidia.

#4556481 - 02/17/21 04:48 PM Re: AMD Zen 4 with 5nm node [Re: Hellshade]  
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Supposedly "the 2021 - 2022 roadmap" for AMD and Intel. Q3 20202 for Zen 4. Hopefully, everything stays on track.

Roadmap for AMD & Intel


Last edited by Hellshade; 02/17/21 04:50 PM.

Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven & Hell II
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

#4556485 - 02/17/21 05:15 PM Re: AMD Zen 4 with 5nm node [Re: Hellshade]  
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Originally Posted by Hellshade
Supposedly "the 2021 - 2022 roadmap" for AMD and Intel. Q3 20202 for Zen 4. Hopefully, everything stays on track.

Roadmap for AMD & Intel



Definitely worth keeping an eye on,I’m planning to upgrade my rig sometime soon ( Hw components availability) cheers for the link Hellshade cheers


They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.
#4556546 - 02/18/21 12:49 AM Re: AMD Zen 4 with 5nm node [Re: Hellshade]  
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Opinions = whatever you want it to be and are largely based on feelings. The Truth = Facts/data, and should not be biased by someone's opinion or feelings. I am not sure why some in here are getting uppity when someone else posts facts that directly contradict another person's post which is not supported by facts? The comment about PCIE3 & PCIE4 and a few seconds difference just had me on the floor rolling. I have always been an AMD CPU rig kind of guy, and I am currently in the middle of an AMD Ryzen 5 5600x build that kksnowbear is overseeing and teaching me through a hands on rig building process. After reading the reviews on the R 5 5600x and now having seen first hand benchmarks preformed on my new rig, I am amazed at what AMD has been able to achieve in the last 3 years. I have been thinking of building a new rig for the last three years and I was depressed that I was going to have to yield to Intel's superiority and hefty prices to build a top of the line new rig. Nothing against Intel, but I always root for the little guy, in this case AMD with my 2 previous builds. I have been pleasantly surprised with the R 5 5600x's price point and performance and I can only imagine where AMD will take the Zen 4 architecture.

It seems to me there is no need for personal attacks as this thread has been swerved here and there a bit by more than one person. As far as a 'dig', I can't see what kksnowbear wrote as being a dig when this issue/problem has already been acknowledged with some late model AMD GPUs. It is what it is, and for the ones that stick with AMD as a pure system it could be a show stopper? Not being an AMD GPU guy, I don't know the particulars, but I don't see where the personal attacks fit in as related to addressing what has already been posted. Maybe everyone just needs to check there opinions at the door and look at the facts? Of course this is where I write,......wait for it ,.............
wait for it,.......but that is IMHO. winkngrin

S!Blade<><

Last edited by Blade_Meister; 02/18/21 12:52 AM.
#4556556 - 02/18/21 03:16 AM Re: AMD Zen 4 with 5nm node [Re: Hellshade]  
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Blade, you are KK’s perfect uninformed customer. Show me in any reputable article where pcie4.0 offers double the performance in games. You won’t find it. Why because it mostly relates to read/write performance of storage..... databases and similar software will benefit from it. Games performance will not.... maybe a FEW SECONDS faster loading. Most video cards can’t use all pcie3s bandwidth to begin with. Pcie4 won’t benefit games now or in the near future. We all have opinions, but no need to post that you were rolling on the floor because I shared my opinion. That was rude.

Oh and BTW, you should have gone with an intel 10600 instead of the AMD 5600. That’s my opinion.

Last edited by orbyxP; 02/18/21 03:34 AM.
#4556561 - 02/18/21 03:48 AM Re: AMD Zen 4 with 5nm node [Re: Hellshade]  
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Except once again, as I said above, the real reason PCIe 4.0 matters is because of upcoming technologies like RTX I/O and DirectStorage, both of which will require PCIe 4.0. These are both widely understood as the most significant performance development in gaming in quite some time.

If he'd gone with *anything* 10th Gen Intel, no PCIe 4.0 - and that's not an opinion, it's fact. Without PCIe 4.0, no DirectStorage and thus no RTX I/O. Again, not opinion, fact.

The fact is that Nvidia and AMD have both moved to PCIe 4.0, but you're still saying it doesn't matter...well...they're the ones making all this hardware. I guess that fact speaks for itself.

Intel tried the argument that PCIe 4.0 doesn't matter to games, as well - and were laughed at by a lot of knowledgeable people. Fact is they didn't want it to matter, because at the time they had no support for it.

But, whaddya know, look at RocketLake...interesting that Intel now puts PCIe 4.0 into their newest CPUs - when not long ago they're trying to convince everyone it doesn't matter. There's another fact that speaks for itself.

And now *I'm* rolling in the floor laughing, because it's just that funny. I'm not the only one (by far) who's noticed all this; they're all laughing too.

Finally, stop with the personal attacks. Blade's been perfectly informed at every step of his upgrade - and, in fact, just to be clear: He chose the 5600X himself. Though I did completely support the decision, I didn't influence that choice at all. Fact. So your personal jab at my 'uninformed customer' is not only completely uncalled for, it was also completely inaccurate.

Last edited by kksnowbear; 02/18/21 03:50 AM.
#4556578 - 02/18/21 01:09 PM Re: AMD Zen 4 with 5nm node [Re: Hellshade]  
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L'Etoile du Nord
.

déjà vu - an argument about computer components went by, and then another one just like it. The Matrix must have reset itself - again.

. . . matrix . . .

It's a trap - GET OUT NOW!

.

#4556668 - 02/19/21 12:08 AM Re: AMD Zen 4 with 5nm node [Re: Hellshade]  
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If only the Matrix had used AMD. rolleyes What might have been ....

#4556724 - 02/19/21 01:40 PM Re: AMD Zen 4 with 5nm node [Re: Hellshade]  
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L'Etoile du Nord
.

But if you're using the latest gen AMD GPU the red pill won't work with it, and because it's a twenty-year-old franchise AMD will likely be none-too-quick to offer tech support to correct the issue. Just not that many people taking the red pill anymore you see, so it's not really worth their time trying to sort it out.




biggrin

.

#4556777 - 02/19/21 06:45 PM Re: AMD Zen 4 with 5nm node [Re: Hellshade]  
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BWOC Survivor!...So Far!!
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Lou;

All I recall is that:

One pill makes you smaller,
and one pill makes you tall,
and the one that mother gives you
Won't do anything at all

Go ask Alice.....


(System_Specs)
Case: Cooler Master Storm Trooper
PSU: Ultra X3,1000-Watt
MB: Asus Maximus VI Extreme
Mem: Corsair Vengeance (2x 8GB), PC3-12800, DDR3-1600MHz, Unbuffered
CPU: Intel i7-4770K, OC to 4.427Ghz
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Seidon 240M Liquid CPU Cooler
Vid Card: ASUS GTX 980Ti STRIX 6GB
OS and Games on separate: Samsung 840 Series 250GB SSD
Monitor: Primary ASUS PG27AQ 4k; Secondary Samsung SyncMaster BX2450L
Periphs: MS Sidewinder FFB2 Pro, TrackIR 4

#4556801 - 02/19/21 08:22 PM Re: AMD Zen 4 with 5nm node [Re: Hellshade]  
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Robert...it is true that the one makes you smaller and one makes you tall...

But the RED ones being produced currently make you twice as small or tall, and they do it twice as fast (for less money) biggrin biggrin biggrin

#4556807 - 02/19/21 09:09 PM Re: AMD Zen 4 with 5nm node [Re: Hellshade]  
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Oooh I'll have some with 2 fingers of Bowmore!!

That should make me twice as high, twice as fast, Right?

Last edited by Robert_Wiggins; 02/19/21 09:10 PM.

(System_Specs)
Case: Cooler Master Storm Trooper
PSU: Ultra X3,1000-Watt
MB: Asus Maximus VI Extreme
Mem: Corsair Vengeance (2x 8GB), PC3-12800, DDR3-1600MHz, Unbuffered
CPU: Intel i7-4770K, OC to 4.427Ghz
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Seidon 240M Liquid CPU Cooler
Vid Card: ASUS GTX 980Ti STRIX 6GB
OS and Games on separate: Samsung 840 Series 250GB SSD
Monitor: Primary ASUS PG27AQ 4k; Secondary Samsung SyncMaster BX2450L
Periphs: MS Sidewinder FFB2 Pro, TrackIR 4

#4557068 - 02/21/21 02:50 PM Re: AMD Zen 4 with 5nm node [Re: Hellshade]  
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OK leave out the personally directed comments please. This whole thread is OT of course I will add the OT: in front and move to Technical as it's a technical discussion about CPUs.


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4557267 - 02/22/21 07:03 PM Re: AMD Zen 4 with 5nm node [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Originally Posted by kksnowbear
Robert...it is true that the one makes you smaller and one makes you tall...

But the RED ones being produced currently make you twice as small or tall, and they do it twice as fast (for less money) biggrin biggrin biggrin

And what about the BLUE one?

#4557313 - 02/22/21 11:59 PM Re: OT: AMD Zen 4 with 5nm node [Re: Hellshade]  
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JJJ65

Be careful with the blue one, I understand it can make you very stiff and that is not good if you are trying to squirm down the rabbit hole! biggrin

Last edited by Robert_Wiggins; 02/23/21 07:17 AM.

(System_Specs)
Case: Cooler Master Storm Trooper
PSU: Ultra X3,1000-Watt
MB: Asus Maximus VI Extreme
Mem: Corsair Vengeance (2x 8GB), PC3-12800, DDR3-1600MHz, Unbuffered
CPU: Intel i7-4770K, OC to 4.427Ghz
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Seidon 240M Liquid CPU Cooler
Vid Card: ASUS GTX 980Ti STRIX 6GB
OS and Games on separate: Samsung 840 Series 250GB SSD
Monitor: Primary ASUS PG27AQ 4k; Secondary Samsung SyncMaster BX2450L
Periphs: MS Sidewinder FFB2 Pro, TrackIR 4

#4557453 - 02/23/21 07:42 PM Re: OT: AMD Zen 4 with 5nm node [Re: Hellshade]  
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Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven & Hell II
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

#4557736 - 02/25/21 06:46 PM Re: OT: AMD Zen 4 with 5nm node [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
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Originally Posted by Robert_Wiggins
JJJ65

Be careful with the blue one, I understand it can make you very stiff and that is not good if you are trying to squirm down the rabbit hole! biggrin

hahaha

#4558287 - 03/02/21 03:18 AM Re: OT: AMD Zen 4 with 5nm node [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Originally Posted by kksnowbear
Except once again, as I said above, the real reason PCIe 4.0 matters is because of upcoming technologies like RTX I/O and DirectStorage, both of which will require PCIe 4.0.


Are you kidding? really? ....
Do you know what the technologies that you're referring even mean? and they won't even be ready for a while in the future? ....

In Nvidia's own words ...NVIDIA RTX IO: GPU-Accelerated Storage Technology --- Leveraging the advanced architecture of our new GeForce RTX 30 Series graphics cards, we’ve created NVIDIA RTX IO, a suite of technologies that enable rapid GPU-based loading and game asset decompression.
This means you'll need an RTX 30 series video card to take advantage of this technology... and those aren't cheap.

Microsoft’s DirectStorage API will need an NVME to take advantage of it's higher IOPS than AHCI, otherwise, it's not that much different then what's on the market now.... Oh, and you'll need a motherboard that has the capability to install an Nvme....

So, basically, if you don't have an RTX based graphics card or an Nvme drive, the PCIe 4.0 technology is either minimally useful or useless...

Again, you're missing the point, PCIe 4.0 has to do with how fast a game can load assets, and NOTHING to do with FPS or game performance.


#4558428 - 03/03/21 02:18 PM Re: OT: AMD Zen 4 with 5nm node [Re: orbyxP]  
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Originally Posted by orbyxP
Are you kidding? really? ....
Do you know what the technologies that you're referring even mean? and they won't even be ready for a while in the future? ....

In Nvidia's own words ...NVIDIA RTX IO: GPU-Accelerated Storage Technology --- Leveraging the advanced architecture of our new GeForce RTX 30 Series graphics cards, we’ve created NVIDIA RTX IO, a suite of technologies that enable rapid GPU-based loading and game asset decompression.
This means you'll need an RTX 30 series video card to take advantage of this technology... and those aren't cheap.

Microsoft’s DirectStorage API will need an NVME to take advantage of it's higher IOPS than AHCI, otherwise, it's not that much different then what's on the market now.... Oh, and you'll need a motherboard that has the capability to install an Nvme....

So, basically, if you don't have an RTX based graphics card or an Nvme drive, the PCIe 4.0 technology is either minimally useful or useless...

Again, you're missing the point, PCIe 4.0 has to do with how fast a game can load assets, and NOTHING to do with FPS or game performance.


Wow...this is so incredibly misguided on so many levels it's really difficult to even respond...but I have to remind myself I'm doing this for the sake of others, who might read this blather and otherwise accept it.

It's almost funny (but not, really...) that every time you post anything, you're just showing exactly what you don't know about any of this stuff. Sorry...but you're wrong (again):

Per Andrew Burns, Admin over at the Nvidia forums: (https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforc...d-storage-technology/#comment-5054185320)

"RTX IO is supported on all GeForce RTX Turing and NVIDIA Ampere-architecture GPUs." Turing goes all the way back to the 16-series cards, thus RTX IO does not require a 30-series card.

As far as it being "In Nvidia's own words": You're misreading what you've blindly copied and pasted, without bothering to comprehend or being thorough in research. It doesn't say anywhere that the 30-series cards are required, nor does it say the 30-series are the only ones that will support RTX IO. The quote I've copied, OTOH, specifically says it's NOT just 30-series cards.

So, there's that.

As for when these technologies would be available, at least DirectStorage is to be released to developers this year. So it's already essentially ahead of Intel platforms that can even support it, relatively speaking, because Intel hasn't released a CPU yet that supports PCIe 4.0. By the time they do, there will be less than a year - perhaps 6 months? - before DirectStorage is available to developers. Of course, that doesn't mean it's actually in any game, I'm aware of that.

But here's what you're not taking into account: People buying systems right now, today, (and for the past year, for that matter) have a very simple choice to make: Get a system that supports PCIe 4.0 now, or not. Effectively, that means A. Buy an AMD setup now, B. Wait until Intel finally releases Rocket Lake, or C. Plan on upgrading again in the very near future to have a system that will support PCIe 4.0. That Option "C" there means someone would literally have to pay to upgrade a CPU motherboard and RAM (and with two latest-generation models, at that) which could wind up costing double what an upgrade usually costs.

With this knowledge, there's no sense at all in option C. Option B is only somewhat better - because Zen 3 CPUs are busy kicking the ever-loving snot out of even unreleased flagship Intel Rocket Lake CPUs dollar-for-dollar - but at least it will include PCIe 4.0 support. However, it's still not actually available for at least another few weeks...and when it does (finally) come out, everyone already knows what's going to happen: AMD will drop Zen 3 prices to further the blow to Intel, who will be so early in their 11th-gen release cycle that there's no way they're going to drop prices right away. So, Zen 3 will be better CPUs, at a price advantage that is likely even better than what we see today.

This is why it's relevant to this thread, and important for someone who's considering upgrading: Failing to consider these things could cause someone to make a very bad decision concerning upgrades, what's supported , and what's right around the corner. The misinformation you are posting here could cause or contribute to a bad decision.

Also: DirectStorage has everything to do with performance, but of course this is a totally lost point on anyone who persists with the (extremely misguided) notion that higher FPS automatically means better performance, and that performance can only be gauged by higher FPS.

Using max or average FPS alone as a metric hasn't been an acceptable way to view game performance for a long time now; in fact, most competent studies/reviews actually include stats on minimal and average frames per second, as well as a measurement of "1% or .1% lows" and frame times. These measurements are specifically used to show where a system can exhibit high FPS (or average FPS) but still show stuttering and/or frame rate 'drops' which disrupts the smoothness of graphics during game play. The fact is, this smoothness is actually more important than sheer FPS, because even very high frame rates that plummet at times will cause huge stutters, where even a fairly low frame rate (~40 or even less) that is stable and consistent will present a very 'playable' game. This is reflected in the fact that modern day motion pictures are still shown at 24 frames per second. (In fact, higher frame rate films have been tried a number of times through recent decades - and didn't really do well).

Everyone here knows what happens when so-called graphical game 'assets' are loaded: stutter. (There's a thread about it right now on the forum, which I actually had nothing to do with - but it shows that this is still an issue).

So, if stuttering caused by loading in assets (in real time, not at startup) can be reduced or even eliminated, that would represent an absolutely huge performance improvement.

And, what-do-you-know..."smoothness" is one area where - specifically - DirectStorage *definitely* can improve game performance, by "...bringing you larger, more detailed virtual worlds that load in as fast as your game character can move through it." (https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/directstorage-is-coming-to-pc/https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/directstorage-is-coming-to-pc/)

This is clearly a performance improvement that goes well beyond decreasing load times.

So, unfortunately, the facts again show you are incorrect.

By the way, the guy who wrote that blog (Andrew Yeung) works at Microsoft and actually holds a patent in VR Imaging technology. And up top, I linked to a direct quote from an Administrator on Nvidia's forums.

As I said previously: It's really hard to imagine that you know more about these things than the people I'm quoting here. People who are directly and immediately involved in the very technologies we're discussing, and whose statements directly contradict what you're trying to represent as factual.

I think the facts here speak for themselves.

(EDIT: Incidentally, NVMe has been implemented on almost every board built since the Z97 days, which was roughly 2015 IIRC...so having an NVMe drive is not at all new or in any way exorbitant. They are quite standard and have been for over 5 years. And, to be perfectly accurate, I have several X79 setups right here in my shop that are 'pre-Z97' and thus do not have M.2 slots on the board...but I can easily install a cheap AIC to put an M.2 drive in any PCIe 3.0 x4 slot to get full performance from such a drive...already done it several times. Be glad to share the drive performance benchmarks. However, that's not the issue. The issue is that technologies like DirectStorage and thus RTX IO are built around the bandwidth that PCIe 4.0 makes possible, and therefore, PCIe 4.0 will be necessary for these technologies to work).

Last edited by kksnowbear; 03/03/21 07:00 PM.
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